Tony Hawk: Harnessing Passion, Drive & Persistence for Lifelong Success

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life

I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at

Stanford school of medicine today my

guest is Tony Hawk Tony Hawk is one of

the most celebrated and accomplished

professional skateboarders of all time

for more than 40 years he has been at

the Forefront of the sport and I don't

mean just doing a sport for more than 40

years I truly mean he has been at the

Forefront of skateboarding developing

new Maneuvers AKA tricks that include

incredible Feats like the 900 and 900

degree spin in the air as well as

numerous other Maneuvers that have

really pushed the entire sport forward

he's also completely popularized the

sport through his video game and through

his ambassadorship for skateboarding in

fact few if any names are synonymous

with skateboarding in the general public

as Tony Hawk and he is oh so deserved of

that title because for more than 40

years he has shown up as the consummate

professional he is kind he is respectful

and he is completely committed to his

craft and that shows up in every aspect

of his life he still to this day

skateboards daily and as you'll soon

learn he recently suffered a major

injury a complete break of his femur

that is the bone in his upper leg and

this is what many people would consider

a career-ending injury not only did Tony

come back from that injury but he went

back to the very trick on which he broke

his femur and recently completed that

trick that is a 540 or so-called mitt

twist I mentioned this because at every

level of his life Tony has demonstrated

himself to be somebody with Incredible

Drive incredible vision and incredible

persistence and today we talk about that

dry vision and persistence and we talk

about what it takes to set a goal and to

continually evolve one's goal and to

continually progress as a basically

young pre-teen as a teenager as a young

adult as an adult and well let's face it

as a 55 year old man he is now heading a

little bit past middle age although we

do hope that he lives forever

Tony Hawk AKA The Birdman really does

seem to be superhuman but as you learned

today he is oh so human in the way that

he shares his own experience and shares

with you the ways in which we can each

and all look at what we do and think

about what we want to achieve and put

our minds and our bodies to those goals

and Achieve them I confess that today's

discussion with Tony Hawk was a

particularly thrilling one for me to

have

I grew up in the sport of skateboarding

so I had met Tony previously although he

doesn't remember it that was many years

ago in fact I met his parents you'll

learn more about that story during

today's episode but I was aware of

course of Tony's accomplishments I was

also aware of his philanthropy so he has

a skatepark Foundation I also listened

to his podcast with another professional

skateboarder Jason Ellis called Hawk vs

wolf we provided a link to that podcast

in the show note captions as well but

never before have I had the opportunity

to sit down and talk to the Tony Hawk

and learn from him so I was absolutely

delighted to have this conversation and

it far exceeded my already lofty

expectations before we begin I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford it is however part of my desire

and effort to bring zero cost to

Consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

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code huberman at checkout and now for my

discussion with Tony Hawk Tony Hawk

welcome thanks

I'm particularly thrilled to have this

conversation because

I've tracked your career for a very long

time grew up in the skateboard thing I I

know had your poster on my wall oh thank

you your name is synonymous with

skateboarding as you know I think a

question that probably get asked from

time to time but let's just clarify the

data from the outset Tony Hawk is your

real name right yes Anthony Frank Hawk

but I never went by Anthony I mean my

parents call me Tony since I could

remember so it's a fitting name given

the sport and what you do and we will

get into this a little bit later when we

talk about family and parenting and

parents

um but I'll allude to the story now that

uh

when I was 14 years old your parents

took me in yeah I slept in your bed in

your home so wild not with you in it but

surrounded by your a near infinite

number of trophies and and

um it must have been right after I moved

out

so this would be I was 14 years old

maybe I'll just tell the story now very

briefly I was 14 years old I was at a

contest at Linda Vista Boys Club

everyone left me and another kid named

Billy Waldman

uh we're still there your dad said

where where are you going

um it was clear that I didn't know where

I was going my life was I was a wayward

youth at that time and so they took me

in for uh a night maybe even two nights

your mom uh Nancy and your dad Frank

were so gracious brought me in into your

home took me to dinner

um I mean that tracks that would

definitely my dad and my mom together

would be doing that yes incredible

people

um and we'll get back to that story

later because you and I actually met uh

the next day in Fallbrook at your ramp

but so it had been 88 89 that's right

I'm gonna say I'm gonna say 89. okay and

it must have been one of the either NSA

or Castle contests yeah that your dad

was very active in well we'll get back

to that but uh I have so many questions

that relate to skateboarding to you and

really as a neuroscientist to the whole

concept of a life of continual

progression because

but they're not people listening to this

and watching this are skateboarders or

not and I imagine that most of them are

not

it's absolutely clear that you've been

in this game a very long time and that

you've somehow managed to continue to

progress over and over to come back from

very severe injuries and somehow keep

getting better and better so the first

question I have is about the younger

version of you um

did you have any sort of self-concept

like you know I want to be a pro athlete

or I want to be a skateboarder or I want

to have a video game named after me

right right exactly

um you know but if you can think back to

maybe even pre-skateboarding do you

remember what your self-concept was you

know this notion of like

um I have a self and I'm either similar

or different to other kids in some way

when I was young

I was put in a lot of advanced classes

and not that that felt like a badge of

honor it felt more like I was just

classified as a nerd

but then I thought okay well that's my

strength so I'll lean into that and I

thought that maybe I would be a teacher

because I thought well I I get all these

Concepts and I think I could relate them

to kids or to my peers because I helped

a lot of my classmates

through some of some classes so

that's all I really had I didn't know

and then when I would play sports I

would I would be okay you know I wasn't

I wasn't terrible but I wasn't the VIP

or the MVP and so I was just kind of

playing basketball playing uh baseball

um and then when I found skateboarding

I mean it was it was pretty obvious that

that was what I wanted to do it was once

once I got on a skateboard and realized

that I could maneuver it and do things

that were unique

and now they're moving the needle or

anyone cared but they were unique in the

sense of like I didn't I've never seen

anyone do this and this feels awesome

and so I just want to do this and so I

didn't think that this is my career I

was 10. so I just thought this is this

is my phone this is my hobby this is

this is my thing

um and I don't want to play these other

sports anymore

did you stop playing all the others yes

I I quit I quit little league in the

middle of the season when my dad had

been appointed president of that chapter

of Little League

because he was the coach he was always

very involved in all of his kids I have

three siblings so he was always very

supportive whatever they were doing and

then when I was playing baseball he

became a coach because he had time and

he was doing that he was he was you know

almost retired

um and then he was such a prominent

figure in the Little League they said oh

you're president now and so then someone

else was coach and then I was skating

and I was over it

did you immediately start skateboarding

in the parks on transition as we say or

were you pushing around in the driveway

like most kids it was I was

transportation

and skating was kind of a fad so I

started in 78 roughly maybe 77 even and

it was kind of a fad so

kids just had skateboards and they would

they would all cruise around you know

like it was the 70s so everyone had a

bike right and you knew wherever all the

kids were because the bikes were in the

front lawn and then at some point that

kind of turned into skating

so everyone had skateboards they're all

like

shitty

you know uh JCPenney or Big Box store

skateboards no one had really good ones

not in my area

um but then at some point we were just

looking at these magazines of people

skating and everyone's skating in pools

because that was the Dogtown and Z-Boys

era and it was like these guys are

flying I wanna like where do we do that

and then the skate park opened up in San

Diego that was Del Mar's Cooper uh okay

Oasis Oasis skatepark was the first one

in our area actually I take that back

Spring Valley was the first skate park I

tried to go there and I was nine and you

had to be 10.

and I remember like sitting in the

parking lot looking over the fence and

my dad didn't realize what they ate

because my dad would have easily lied

for me but he didn't realize there was

an age limit and he said how old is he

nine oh sorry he can't come

and then they closed

not long after so when I never got to

Spring Valley

um because I I think of you as

synonymous with Del Mar skate Ranch sure

well that was that came later because

Oasis skate park was opened up so this

was when I first went was like 78.

uh a friend of mine was going and he

said I want to go to the skate park so I

had to go get

you know this is such a hassle like I

had to go get the authorization form I

had to get it notarized by the bank for

my parents like to go there and then I

went and it was that was my Epiphany

when I first saw people flying around in

person I was like this is what I'm doing

for as long as I could possibly do it

because it looked it looked like magic

it really did it looked like they were

flying on magic carpets and and it spoke

to me in the sense of being a daredevil

but also

doing it individually not relying on my

team not

um getting

hassled by a coach it was just like oh I

can be part of the scene but do it my

own way and then uh

I skated Oasis as much as I could

whenever I get your rides there and

um then my parents moved to North County

San Diego when I was in high school

um mostly because they were just chasing

kind of real estate deals and uh and so

I got lucky that Dome our skate Ranch

was right there

every other Park closed but Del Mar

skate Ranch remained open so I mean

there was a bit of luck to all that and

it was based on geography

your dad's involvement is interesting

because

I got into skateboarding because you

know my dad wasn't around that much at

that time a lot of kids getting

skateboarding because it doesn't require

parent involvement was it unusual to

have parental involvement at that stage

yeah I mean I remember Frank and by the

way I remember Frank and Nancy your

parents with was with such fondness not

just because they took me in but I

remember thinking like there they were

at times the only point of stability in

a landscape of like 200 people where as

you know there could be potential chaos

of any kind and your dad had this way of

moving about like he wasn't afraid I

recall that he wasn't afraid to say what

he thought like hey don't do that like

impose some regulation at this contest

and at the same time it seemed me also

understood that this was a sport unlike

other sports like you're not gonna

regulate

kids like me at the time or you're not

going to try and control people so what

was it like to have your dad involved

and the reason I ask is that you're a

parent we'll talk more about parenting

but also it seems that he went from

saying okay you know little league other

sports which is more typical to okay

this kind of unusual sport skateboarding

but your mere interest in it was enough

to get him excited or motivated enough

to take you around to these places

um that's pretty special I mean that's

pretty it was I mean and in that respect

it was great to have his support and and

to rely on him for that the fact that he

was always around and he was in charge

of a lot of the events that that sucked

because

because it just marked me

um as one being favorited

um and spoiled

um and and most of my friends their

parents didn't want them skating so even

though they were stoked that my dad had

was was doing this kind of thing and

giving that kind of support they still

were like your Dad's here like this is

our thing this is our scene this is our

getaway from our parents

well I I didn't really have a choice in

the matter I did I did at some point

tell him my my concerns and my

frustrations with it but he didn't

really want to hear it you know he was

he was very much steadfast like well I'm

I'm been coming this far like you can we

can keep our distance at these events

but people are relying on me to organize

them and so I just had to suck it up for

a while did it push you harder like you

know if you could prove yourself with a

skateboarding that you didn't have to

worry about any claims of favoritism

because ultimately you can't fake you

can't fake Escape right right I mean

there's no deep fake version of

skateboarding you know you either can do

it or you can't do it and it's shown in

real time

so

um

and I suppose back then I recall you

were quite a bit

skinny or skinnier oh yeah I had I had

all kinds of things going against me at

the time yeah I mean I don't think

people will realize this unless they've

met you in person but nowadays there are

a few taller skateboarders out there

because the Sports grown so much

um but you're pretty tall you're like

six six three but okay I was not when I

was growing when I was that age I was

very small

um and kind of

concerningly small Because by the time I

got to be 16

I was still I looked like I was 13. I

used to get pulled over

I literally like I had a car that I

bought with my earnings I had a Honda

Civic 1977 cvcc and I would get pulled

over and then the cops would be like how

old are you again 16. like well you look

like you were 13 back there

um and then I shot up around age 17.

okay so that's interesting and we can

get back to this when we talk about your

almost remarkable levels of ability to

recover from physical injuries because

um well I'll just share a little bit of

a biological Theory here which is that

you know there are a lot of people that

study longevity and perhaps the fastest

rate of Aging that we ever undergo is

puberty right if you think about a kid

before puberty kid after abuse different

human being psychologically often

physically as well some people have a

longer Arc of puberty than others and

that does seem to correlate with a

longer life

and so it's kind of interesting you know

some kids hit puberty and they go

through all the markers of puberty in

like one summer right other kids it's

very very long and it sounds like we

don't have to talk about when you hit

puberty and the other markers but it

sounds like your growth spurt occurred

late oh yeah that's a terrific marker of

a long life by the way because what it

reflects is the onset of a big burst of

growth hormone out of the pituitary in

the brain and

if you continue to grow for a long

period of time that indicates you know

it gives you a little bit of the slope

of the line does that make sense oh yeah

so um this this may um have important

and fortunate consequences so at 17 you

shot up am I correct in Remembering uh

maybe you said it maybe somebody else

did that you were

um forgive me but so skinny when you

were a kid that you actually wore elbow

pads as knee pads yeah yeah that's a

true that's a true story for sure and

and

I took inspiration from others that that

I identified with namely Steve Caballero

because he was already an established

Pro when I started to come up in the

ranks or even get noticed at all and he

was wearing elbow pads on his knees in

this full-page picture of him and

Winchester doing a back sitter and I was

like that I want to do that and he's

small

and I feel like that's my goal yeah like

if he can do that I can do it it was

just more like oh this I identify with

that and and that gives me hope

um and as I recall Stevie also has a

pretty severe scoliosis right like at

one point Julius what he has at one

point he was turned turned pretty pretty

tight to the to the right or left I

don't recall which I mean still

incredible skateboarder loves TV he's a

NorCal guy so yeah I grew up I know

whatever he had is from birth but um but

it was more that his size and I didn't

even know he was he many not many but

you know he's like four years older than

me

um so I just was like oh there's small

guys doing that I can do it maybe but

when I got tall when I went through

puberty suddenly I had all these tricks

and then suddenly I had the strength and

the the height that gave me confidence

and so all of a sudden it was like oh I

can go way higher now

and I'm comfortable with these tricks

these intricate board Maneuvers and

stuff so that was a huge advantage to me

um the the smaller Stuff felt different

after that which was harder

um but being able to blast AFI in the

air as opposed to four feet in the air

was a huge Advantage yeah isn't that

wild when the nervous system knows how

to do something and then your body

changes and you can do the same thing

but with so much more Force even the

bowls look smaller

when I would stand on top I was like

wait this isn't that big

it's wild well the reason I ask about

this I think you know people listening

generally seem to assume that you know

if you become a Stanford Professor or

become a professional skateboarder or

you a professional soccer player that

that you were just fated to become that

right and it's clear that it's the

Confluence of so many different factors

um but one of the consistent factors for

sure is a sense that you just really

love doing it right I mean I can't

imagine getting

you know proficient or excellent at

anything without loving doing it right

and so still at this time when you were

let's say um 14 15

um did you have any concept of you know

whatever pro model I'm gonna none of

that well there was there was none of

that to be had

so we didn't have these great

aspirations because no one had really

done that before there were you could

have some success yes you could have

maybe a signature model but even the top

sales of skateboarding then wasn't a

career

the prize money was 150 for first place

100 for second 50 for third

couple tanks of gas some food yeah so

let's put it this way

I turned Pro when I was 14. by the time

I was

15 and a half and I had a learner's

permit and I could drive a scooter you

know I had 600 in my bank account and I

used that to buy a Honda Express uh

moped for a year and a half that was my

earnings

was six hundred dollars so clearly money

wasn't the uh the dopamine hit it was

the it was the actual skateboard sure

and that's what I mean though there

wasn't there was no goal of that because

it just didn't exist so I didn't care

like getting I I have my own vehicle

at age 15 like I was living large

I can get to the skate park on my own

that was amazing

to be 14

and be a professional at anything must

be

um a trip so to speak

um but what I'm wondering about because

I came up when

um your early cohort with Paul Peralta

so for those that don't know so-called

Bones Brigade right

I guess it was a total what like six

seven guys there were someone that were

a little more peripheral than others

um they're about six seven core guys

um in the various videos I mean you guys

were famous right you had posters

um on kids walls who skateboarded there

was a second or maybe it was a third

surge of popularity and skateboarding

um because it would sort of surge in

general popularity than disappear and

come back as it has over decades it

keeps coming and going

um to some extent

did you have a conscious awareness of

just how you know how much attention was

being placed on you know photos of you

videos of you and I'm just wondering

about the younger version of you whether

or not you know you realize what was

happening and the reason I ask is

because you've always seemed to me

somebody who through interviews through

videos through our interactions and for

those who have known you much longer

than I have

um just very grounded like not caught up

in it

um you know we've never seen headlines

about you kind of just you know blowing

all your money or you know wrecking cars

and you know destroying your life I mean

I'm sure you've made mistakes like any

of us but but you seem to have avoided a

lot of the pitfalls of quote unquote

famous people and celebrities and yet

you were a famous person from a very

young age

I

well I think it was that I didn't never

I never

that was never a goal and then when I

had a sense of it I was very

uncomfortable

I mean I was happy I was happy to be

successful I was happy that people

recognized me that that was amazing just

because I was good at skateboarding I

never imagined something like that

um and but I was always very

I mean some people thought that I was

sort of almost like pompous or arrogant

because I wasn't interacting because I

was just I was walled up I was like I

don't know what to do I don't know this

is the last words I would ever use to

describe you I think it was just more

that that that people would see me like

I go to a ramp I didn't know anybody and

I would just start skating and I'd do

all my stuff and they were like oh he

doesn't even talk to anyone

and I was like I don't know I don't know

what to do I don't know how to act also

you were 14 years old so Stacy broke me

out of that because I remember one time

there was a kid that was just staring at

me like hold my skateboard he had my

signature model and he said go say hi to

that guy

what are you sure like he wants he wants

to interact with you you know just go

high five of them or anything and and I

learned to sort of break out of my

comfort zone by doing that enough

um but my first go around I mean that

was that was sort of my first

uh wave of Fame I'd say the Bones

Brigade years

and we are so young that we thought this

is forever

and so we were definitely careless with

our our money with our actions and

um and at some point my dad saw that he

didn't think it was going to be long

term

because no one had had a long-term

career right so he he uh encouraged me

to to invest to get property like to buy

a house

that was the that was my Saving Grace

because I definitely was

spending on cars and things like that uh

yeah car like kind of a little bit

beyond my means I wasn't really

considering all my money was was 10.99

income so it wasn't we weren't paying

taxes on anything and at the end of the

year it would be like oh you owe this

much like wait what are you talking

about so

um for instance

hey do you want to go to Hawaii yeah

okay invite everyone

we're all going to Hawaii

I got well let's rent a place okay you

know and it was on me because I had the

means you mentioned Stacy we should

probably clarify for people

um Tony's referring to the great Stacy

Peralta yeah he was he was the one who

put me on the Bones Brigade when I was

still considered sort of a circus act

like a you know my my skating was not

really established

the stuff that I was doing was largely

made fun of because people thought that

what I was doing was just more like a

free show

can you explain more so my and let me

just tell you that my recollection first

recollection of you that I still have

that image in my mind would um is the

finger flip error right you know so for

folks that aren't familiar with

skateboarding you know people ride

around on transition or in the street

handrails stairs you know people

probably familiar with all those things

but um skateboards will Riot up toward

the top of the pool of the ramp and

they'll do something on the so-called

lip or the coping that's to ride at the

the edge of it or they'll go above it

like in the air but I recall seeing you

do the finger flip error I've never seen

anyone flip a board in the air I've seen

people do varial so right move it it's

going to be complicated for people just

listening but just flip it upside down

and then catch it in and finger flip

error yeah that was I remember that was

a jaw drop right it was like so if that

was considered circus era or circus uh

like then I don't know I don't know what

it was being compared to because at the

time we we probably watched that it was

in slow motion as I recall and we

probably watched it

three thousand times you know that

summer there's a big group of us that

all starts skateboarding that summer

um I would say kind of just before that

in that window is when people were

were more

um

giving me Flack for what I was doing

because I was mostly doing board

variation stuff but I still didn't have

the height the height in terms of the

height in terms of in terms of getting

in the air yeah so I was doing all this

stuff kind of right at coping level and

so people weren't taking it into

consideration or giving it much Merit

because it was just like oh he's doing a

little board twist or a bar turn and

then when I started to get some height

around the time you saw and started

doing those tricks like visibly way up

high that's when the the the shift

happened in terms of more acceptance

but I was still labeled as a as like a

trick skater robot skater and then you

had Christian osoy who was all Style

air is higher than anyone anytime he did

a trick it was going to be so flashy and

so amazing and Rockstar personality and

Rockstar personality and so

in that era you I mean it was very

divided it was like no one liked us both

you know what I mean

it was just so strange to be of that age

and of doing something that had never

really been established

and then suddenly I'm pitted against

another skater and we're just trying to

make our way through

15 years and and skateboarding and and

um it got it was it was hard I mean it

was like I got I got bullied

you know yes I was successful yes I was

you but but I would get I would get

uh Thrasher magazine would talk

about my performance when I would win

yeah I remember that because I was from

Northern California and Thrasher

magazine was a Skateboard Magazine from

Northern California actually wrote for

them for a while when I was a postdoc to

make some extra money uh under a

different name folks but you can try and

find those articles they're out there

um and then in Southern California it

was skateboarder mag Transworld mostly

Transworld skateboarding yeah it was a

trans World transport skateboarding and

Thrasher magazine were there were the

two the rivals right yeah um so yeah I

recall um some of those things that were

said

um it just is amazing to me um but it

brings about a really important lesson

which is you know that kid that gets

made fun of if they're determined and

they love what they're doing that's

going to be the kid that blows everyone

away later and I know this for sure

because I'll never forget there do you

remember the back to the city contest

that were called in San Francisco so I

went to those they were in the drain

fountains in front of City Hall I

remember getting there one day and there

was this guy with kind of like afro-like

hair pushing around he was doing what

are called daffies he had two

skateboards he was kind of like weaving

around and I remember thinking you know

San Francisco's other its issues now but

back then it was rough also for

different reasons I remember thinking

like this guy is going to get beat up I

hung out with the Embarcadero crew I was

like this guy's gonna get beat down yeah

that guy was Mark Gonzalez oh yeah so

one of the greatest

perhaps the greatest Street skateboarder

if you can't really Define these things

greatest and whatnot in skateboarding

um

but you know I remember thinking this

guy's just he's a kook and then I

realized who it was and then I realized

he was just like any other kid there at

some level and then a lot of the kids

that got teased early on they stuck with

it five years later I'm singing them in

the magazines and I think about this

with podcasting too there have been some

podcasters they've reached out early on

and had questions and you know look at

their stuff and you know one's initial

impression can be like what are they

like what are they doing here and then

you just see them two years later three

years later and they're doing amazingly

well and you're like this guy or gal is

here for good they're gonna they're

probably gonna be top of the game in a

few years so you never count anybody out

when you would go to sleep at night in

that era were you like laying on the

pillow going like oh my God people hate

me there's stuff in the magazines I

gotta push harder this is hard did you

talk to your dad about it I mean again

it's a lot to Bear even as an adult I

can only imagine what it's like to bear

as a 15 year old kid

I didn't really have a support group you

know or any resource to to

voice those concerns

um

I just knew I wanted to keep getting

better that was it and so if anything if

I was worried about those voices if I

was worried about the

whatever take people had on me

I knew I was going to go back to the

skate park and learn more tricks

um and at some point

I had so much of that as a foundation

that it was sort of undeniable that like

well he can do all this stuff and he

doesn't just do it at his home park

um and I think that's probably when the

tide turned for me is when when I

started to do well at other events

um namely Upland pipeline which was

for the most part the most frightening

pool that we could ride the thing was

big but I also recall like the the hips

as they're called like the transitions

the way they match up super tight

a lot of her giant coping super rough

like if you fell in Upland you're

getting shoot up it's pulling your knee

pads down but I didn't know that because

from the photos I wouldn't know that oh

it was it was treacherous it really was

like it was and and I wanted to do well

at the event and I would drive up there

every weekend like my friend uh Greg

Smith was a freestyler but he lived near

Upland and so I would go drive Friday

after school straight to Upland skate at

night skate Saturday all day skate

Sunday uh early and then drive home

um because I live in San Diego

and I just made it my mission to to

figure that thing out because

that was The Proving Ground for me

um Emma and so if I could skate that I

could go get anything

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it's clear you had an enormous Drive

let's talk a little bit about the

process of trying tricks and the English

anxiety associated with it did you did

you and do you have a sort of systematic

process was it you know I'm going to

learn the basics first like did you say

that do you say I'm okay I'm going to

learn how to do stuff you know at coping

level then I'm gonna do a little error

then I'm gonna go bigger I'm gonna do

this or um did you

just sort of um try what you wanted to

try and you obviously weren't haphazard

about it like how it seems you're pretty

systematic about exploring what's

possible and then pushing forward little

by little but um yeah maybe you could

talk a little bit about how you have

conceptualized okay tomorrow I want to

try this

um it comes in different forms but for

the most part I think about how I could

combine existing tricks

and would this trick work going into

this trick and could your body position

shift or would it all work in unison and

when I approach a new trick I'm saying

I'm saying more in the last 20 years

my thought process is I have all the

pieces to this I've done every bit of it

I've done that I've done the first part

of the trick in another form I've done

the second part or the grinding of it or

whatever

usually in some other basic way and then

the landing is well the landing is from

whatever that is and if you can throw

all those things together and make the

timing work it's gonna work and I I

never I never went at something with

some Hazard approach or throwing caution

to the wind like hope this see what

happens it's always very much like I

know I have all these things and so I

just have to put them together and I

mean now

things are so technical that my same

approach that I'm doing hundreds of

times one of them just works and it's

not because I didn't it's not because I

committed to that one it's because

of some tiny fractional adjustment that

happened that I didn't even know happen

and it just worked and I mean that kind

of is the curse of what tricks are now

because

there are plenty of moves that I've done

over the last 10 years even that I I

only did once because it was too

hard to get to and I didn't learn from

that one make

and that that is that's hard to accept

because in the past I was learning

tricks to have them in my Arsenal that I

could just throw them down at a

competition or a demo I've got that in

my pocket

these days like that trick for instance

I did a I did a 360 shove it five out of

fakie all right let's let's break that

down for real 360 shove it so who's

gonna take this on I'll let you take

this on I can try it from my knowledge

and perspective but whatever 360 shove

it is pushing the board with your feet

and letting it spin a full 360 rotation

under your feet in the landing back on

it it's it's a trick that people do on

usually on flat ground

I've learned I've learned to do it up on

the vert walls like I could do 360 shove

its kind of in the air

but I'm doing that I'm doing a 360 job

and then I'm landing on my truck

right like the axle Between the Wheels

on one axle in a what we call a 5-0

position which is basically a wheelie on

the truck so everything is so precise I

got to do 367 at exactly a certain spot

on the wall I've got to catch it so that

my truck lands when my foot hits it I

can't push it into the truck because

that that screws up my balance so it has

to land on the truck I have to land with

my weight perfectly

set back enough that I can come in

backwards because I'm doing this trick

and and I'm I'm gonna come in fakie

right 360 show 50 to coming in forward

is is a whole different Beast that that

I could probably do that just in a few

tries but the idea that I have to land

on this thing balance on it like a

teeter-totter and then reverse my energy

and come in fakie

backwards it's so hard it's so hard to

to get into the right position so like

any time I try it

there's like a one in ten chance I'm

even gonna get into the position I need

and that's the one I have to commit to

so every time I do it it's so intense

and it takes so much

so much commitment and so much

mind

I don't even know how to explain it like

the the

that you have shut everything else out

except this one moment and this one

fractional

piece that you have to make work

and it

I've done it once and I like I would

love to do it again but I know what it's

gonna it's gonna take the same amount of

effort I didn't learn from that one that

I made some trick that makes it happen

every time it's all so Technical and

there's so many things that can go wrong

that all is accepted okay I did it once

in thinking about the 360 show at 50

fakie uh

was that something that you thought of

the night before you decide that day do

you ever use visualization have you ever

had learning come to you in a dream or

find that you try try something went to

sleep that night next day made it

anything like that yes sometimes I'll

wake up the middle of night and I'll

write down something because it was like

oh there's this trick oh I think I could

do that yeah okay let me write it down

so you dream about skateboarding from

time to time yeah well yeah that shifted

a bit after I got hurt but yeah I used

to dream that I can't skate like I'm

trying and that it feels like the ramps

made of carpet I can't get the speed I

can't get the timing and then as I went

through this traumatic injury my dreams

shifted to wow I can skate I can do all

my tricks again oh interesting yeah a

little uh piece of science around the

can't uh can't skate piece or when

people feel like they're bolted down in

a dream or they can't run away yeah

there's this one phase of sleep called

rapid eye movement sleep where the brain

is very active the dreams associated

with it tend to be very Vivid and at the

same time we are completely paralyzed

and the idea is that no one really knows

why but that it's the case that we're

paralyzed to prevent us from acting out

our dreams it's also an interesting

neurochemical phenomenon because during

these rapid eye movement dreams they

tend to be very intense but the body

can't release adrenaline so it's almost

like its own form of trauma therapy it's

like you're experiencing this intense

thing in your mind but your body can't

react and so oftentimes people uh have

argued that that's why you feel like you

want to move and you can't because

actually can't yeah some people have

woken up while still a bit paralyzed and

REM have you ever had that happen we

wake up but actually a couple of my kids

have have struggled with that a couple

times yeah REM interference is called

it's not dangerous and usually people

can jolt themselves out but it's kind of

terrifying so that's interesting so

we'll get to a discussion about the the

recent injury and thankfully recovery

from the injury not miraculous because

that makes it seem as if it's surprising

frankly I'm not surprised that you've

recovered but it is um spectacular uh

the way you have but

you're saying that in your dreams before

the injury you would think about

skateboarding but you felt like there

was a kind of can't do it when I was

doing it in my dream there was always

some roadblock that I just cut like why

can't I get any speed why can't I why

can't I snap or do this trick um it's

more in the moments where it's Twilight

moments where I'm kind of awake and I'm

thinking about tricks that everything

else Falls away and I can actually focus

on

what kind of new moves to come up with

um

an example of that was uh

recently

I went to the X Games in Japan a few

weeks ago and

I was thinking I was going to go more to

show my support and because they had a

Verge event there's not a lot of bird

events anymore so if there's a vert

event it's kind of like if you build it

I will come because I want to show my

support that's that's kind of where my

heart is

and they had a best trick event and I

thought man maybe I could get in the

best trick is there anything new though

you know and I'm still recovering from

my leg and then at some point I was

falling asleep and I thought oh I could

do that trick and come in 180.

I know I could do that with with my

current state and not getting that much

speed so

to explain what I was doing is is a half

cab body rail to Backside blunt okay we

can walk through this half cab has come

up backwards come with 360. right so

half an hour ago as I approach the top

of the ramp I body rail that means I

jump around

and then I jump around on my board and

then I make sure that it lands with my

two trucks out and my tail on the coping

which is very precarious

and I've done that and come in fakey

beef that's the blunt piece that's the

blunt so I've done that right where you

and then you have to you have to use

your B to lift up the board come in

fakie right I've done that I've done

that twice

and I thought well I wonder if there's

something I could do like that and then

I realized that if I just keep coming

around and I come in

backside direction that keeps my body

spinning and that might actually be

easier

it wasn't but I figured it out

I think I saw a clip of this honest I

did it yeah I mean I did it I did it X

Games and I was like it was my last run

I was it was I mean it didn't move the

needle I got seven plays but for me it

was a huge moment it felt amazing I bet

oh yeah for sure I mean and it was I

mean it was like weeks of

preparation and trying to figure this

thing out I made it twice before the

event

um on my own alone on my ramp but um

that's just an example of of you know I

was I was literally falling asleep and

then all of a sudden I was like

half cup body well back to blunt

I love it that liminal State between

wakefulness and sleep is such a

beautiful state that if one is open to

ideas showing up there yeah they almost

always do I try to start trying it the

next morning

do you ever find that when you're taking

walks or in the shower or not thinking

about skateboarding yeah it's usually in

the in the sort of mundane moments that

that I get inspiration yeah do you have

practices for Pure relaxation aside from

socialization I know I was never

I think that's something I've been

lacking I I never was good at warming up

stretching

post-warm up

um

or or or relaxing you know meditation

nothing I just I I go skate and it's on

um

and as I've gotten older I realize

that's not the best technique but it's

worked so far it has worked

um so for you it's Go Hopefully a little

bit of warm up if you I have more of a

sort of OCD warm-up run

that I use to gauge how I'm feeling but

I kind of have to get through that like

a surgeon when a surgeon's about to do a

surgery

um they don't warm up they just check

off the various boxes of you know this

is here that's there make sure that

they're comfortable in their environment

and then they do they do the life-saving

work yeah yeah I'd say my warm-up run is

is kind of basic tricks but they give me

a sense of how how stiff or how I what I

need to adjust for it for the rest of

the day

so I guess it's not so OCD but it but I

definitely feel like I gotta go through

that routine

what feels the best like I I know that

making a new trick

feels incredible especially if you've

been at it a long time dialing it in so

that you can do it again and again is

its own form of reward yeah um but what

is the maybe list of two or three things

that just feels so good well that for

sure learning new tricks not even that

it's something that I created but just

doing something that I've never done

before

when I first learned varials backside

burials no one had done backside barrels

before they'd only done on the front

side

um and a variable is where you you reach

down grab your board jump in the air and

then turn at 180 under your feet it's

it's like a shove it but you're guiding

with your hand

I learned that halfway up the pool the

main pool in a way at oasis with no one

around and the feeling I got when I rode

away was something that I had never

experienced and then it is it is

literally the buzz that I've been

chasing ever since because it was like I

created something various below coping

was that was the button that was it it

really was and if you saw a video of it

you'd be like that thing like what can I

say it was it was the first time that I

thought

I thought of it

um I I went through all the Motions of

it I did the work and I figured it out

and you know no one no one cared but at

some point I was able to do it six feet

in the air and do a full 360 variable

and so that was the building block but

but that feeling was like no other

um I'd say that and then just even to to

strip everything else away like the most

basic tricks

like a backside Ollie is is an a

no-handed aerial that used to be what it

was called backside no handed Ariel

it feels so good because even to this

day people people say how does the boys

stay on your feet and I can't even tell

you how the board sits on my feet I just

know

I know how to maneuver it

and I know how to keep the pressure on

it and the friction going and backside

always is like

I think it's like a Marvel of physics

and and a clean back say to me it feels

good as anything yeah it's a beautiful

thing to behold I confess I've never

done a legitimate backside at all I ever

on a mini ramp sure but not on vert so I

can't relate to the feeling but I love

love love the fact that

you brought us back to that early

variable below coping feeling and that

that marks the essence of what feels so

good when you do something else right

it's sort of like a it's a as a

neuroscientist I see it as a chemical

stamp it's like a chemical fingerprint

of progress right

um

and I'm also delighted to hear that it

still feels that good to do these things

because I don't think anyone can have

the kind of lifelong progression that

you've had and it's still going uh

without a not just love of the thing but

love of the feeling that it brings when

no one's around because you said Skating

your ramp by yourself so how often are

you on your ramp with you know no one's

filming for Instagram no nothing for a

video nothing for a video game none of

that maybe there's you know maybe other

guys are around gals around we'll talk

about gals too because one of the big

shifts in skateboarding since I started

is that there's some amazing female

skateboarders now

um there's a young lady in fact that's

been skateboarding at your ramp forgive

me I can't remember her name is it Reese

Reese Nelson goodness goodness gracious

I know she is so yeah good so good so

good uh so we'll get back to that but I

think that you know people starting any

kind of sport or academic career or

business or anything I think people

assume that you go from zero to a

hundred somehow and that there are these

people that are just selected by

genetics or by Locker by some

combination of things to just like get

it and be better than everybody else but

it's clear that you've spent a lot of

time alone driving someplace to skate

the next day or alone at the ramp yeah

or um so do you ever reflect on that

kind of Drive

um and you know what what what that's

all about or is it just so intrinsic to

who you are innate I don't I don't think

about it I just know I have to do it

it's like

I mean I I we can get into it with my

injury but um

uh but but to go back to what you're

saying is you're saying that people

think that oh you were chosen for this

or genetics whatever have you saw your

last names

yeah when I first started skating there

was no way you'd think that I was

natural or that I had any future in it I

was all gangly I was all over the place

I was eating left and right like it

just it wasn't I wasn't good I wasn't

I wasn't a natural

um I've seen people that are Naturals

and I've seen that how they don't have

that drive they don't have the

discipline and

it's not wasted but

they just don't they don't utilize they

don't take advantage of what they have

naturally and and for whatever reason I

don't I don't fault anyone for it

um but I've seen both sides of it and

I've also seen other skaters who are

just driven and who are not really good

kind of sloppy and become the best

Andrew Reynolds

oh yeah when we put him on our team

he was just like me super gangling his

boards bouncing around but he's trying

every single trick and every time he

send me a video you know some new

technique that he's figured out and he

didn't really

by the untrained eye he didn't have the

skill set for

and then he became the boss

you know what I mean so I think it's

just you you have to you have to give

that as much weight as natural tone

if not more I'd say more yeah I would

certainly say more for Science and you

know that people were in the lab late at

night and early in the morning and

drilling away not not always the

smartest certainly not the um dumbest

but smart enough to show up when other

people are leaving and continue and I

think there has to be a little bit of

friction internally I mean you know

maybe maybe externally also but just

some friction some I'm gonna show you

yeah yes

okay my best example of that and I

haven't talked about this yet

um because I did it privately but

I I broke my leg doing a mixed with

something that I've done thousands of

times in my 40. 540. yeah so it's it's a

one and a half spin in the backside

Direction but that particular grab that

you do makes it a Twist because it makes

you kind of flip upside down so it's

kind of a one and a half somersault

I it's not my tricks Mike McGill's trick

I learned it not long after he created

it in 1984. been doing it ever since

I mean I'm talking about 40 Years of me

twist right I've gotten hurt once or

twice but not bad

anyway I around and found out

did one with no speed

last year thinking I could do it like I

was still 20 and got tangled up and

broke my femur

I had a super long recovery I had a

false start I had a non-union fracture

which means my bone never connected back

to itself and it kept pushing itself

further away

um and that's all uh in the past I've

got a second surgery in November and all

along in the back of my head is I got to

get back to 540s I have to

and I can't explain why I have to I hate

that it means that much to me

but it it's in here

you know I mean it's not it's not a

sense of Pride it's not like I have to

prove this to anyone I just have to do

it

and last week I did it

it was

so scary

and I prepped for it I

I mean even down to like my diet and I I

stopped drinking altogether and I was

like every time I go to the ramp I'm

just trying 540s like to get the spin to

get the to get the landing Zone with no

intention to make yet just that I had to

get there and then I had to have this

heart to heart with my wife that

you know she doesn't want to see me get

hurt she doesn't see me risking myself

at this age anymore she doesn't want to

live through another traumatic injury

with me

and

I had to tell her like I have to do this

she was gracious and accepting and

that's all I could ask for

it wasn't like she was like yeah you got

to go do it it was like okay

that's who you are

and so she was there she was my only

spectator

so good I confess I've seen a video of

this and my first response was

um f yes

and my second response was that was

really high like this is no you know

just above coping 540. this isn't even

you know this is a head high 540. I'm

not gonna make the same mistake I did

last time where I tried it low thinking

I just get away with it anymore so the

going high was more of a safety measure

which is ironic

the the bigger the ramps for me the

safer it is because I have a better

Landing Zoom I have more time in the air

to adjust

and even though it looks spectacular and

Music Experience it's just like no I

need that

I can't skate some eight foot pool I

have no Landing zone I'm Too Tall I'm

too I move too slowly now to do that

kind of stuff

so that's why you don't see me like in

the Park events and stuff like that you

know you're going to see me on this

14-foot boat ramp because that's my

happy place and that's where I'm safe

um but also having my wife there I just

knew I wasn't gonna get hurt in front of

her

because I would have been such trouble

the the emotional support and pressure

is uh is a real thing and in the best

ways uh not to focus on the bad aspects

of the injury because there are planning

yeah that I recall you and I

communicated not long after the let's

say let's call it what it was the first

break

and I remember you said to me over text

you said how long before I'm

skateboarding again and I said

um skateboarding as in pushing or

skateboarding as in

um what you do on vert you know and you

said uh what I do on vert and I said

well it seems you are doing a lot of

things you were doing deliberate cold

delivery heat pressure you do a number

of things I mean you're not haphazard

about your career and your body and your

health we'll get into that a little bit

later some of the things that you've

enjoyed as beneficial for you but

um you said I'm calling it at two months

and I said okay

um I believe it and then I recall that

you was it the Oscars or some other

award event where you came out about a

week later you came out there uh you

walked out this broken femur and you

weren't using any support to walk out so

you clearly ditched whatever support you

might have been using uh which I think

is Awesome by the way

um and then pretty soon I was seeing

videos of you dropping in I'm seeing

videos of you doing kick turns below

coping I'm seeing videos of you at

coping and you know we have a friend in

common the skateboard and generally

photographer Mike blaback and I remember

texting Mike I was like Tony's back

already this is this is superhuman rates

of healing and I think it is super human

rates of healing

then you mentioned that you

damaged broke broke the femur again so

did you allow more rest the second time

what was driving you to get back in it

so quickly the first go-around I just

didn't listen to any

of the professional advice because I

thought well I've done I've come this

far and I've always been able to push

through

broken pelvis broken elbow

um knee surgeries and I've always been

the timeline is always very shortened

for me because I just get back out there

and I and I get the healing started but

I also am comfortable with what people

think is extremely risky but

in this instance

I want to get back out there right away

and not long after the Academy Awards

uh I was actually walking with a cane at

that time and I ditched the cane just to

walk out on stage to present the award

so that was my big

my big coming out moment but it was kind

of forced and as soon as I walked out to

stay they grabbed my cane and I was

hobbling in the backstage

um but I was

I was skating kind of a mini ramp and

and I was already

struggling because I couldn't put my

weight on my front foot because my bones

still had not connected to itself so

there's a gap in the bone but there's a

there's a nail what they call a nail or

you know big piece of metal that's

holding them in place but I didn't

realize how careful I needed to be with

that because it was so precarious

and I decided I'm going to drop in on

the mini ram like I think I'm ready and

and it wasn't the drop in on the main

ramp it was me getting to the top of the

mini ramp and stepping off my board

that's always that kind of stuff but but

I just stepped off my board like I would

do any other day but I didn't think I

led with my front foot and I felt the

bone move in that moment

I I really I felt it I felt it either

twist or get out of place

and I was in total denial

for months

because I just said oh I just it just

hurts now like I you know I I got a

minor setback

and then I finally

eight months into my recovery seven

months into my recovery I was always in

pain my skating wasn't progressing I

couldn't get speed

and by all measures I should be back at

least I'd be back to a level that I feel

good about

and I went and got x-rays and they said

your bone never connected you have a

non-union fracture and and and and every

time I skated so my bones like this

every time I skated I was pushing it

further away

and so my bone was like this on the last

X-ray and and that was the hard truth so

for those listening just laterally

displaced think about a pipe that's

broken in the middle and just one's

offset to the other and and as I keep

skating and I I could force my skin like

I kind of learned this hack where I can

put 75 of my weight on my back foot and

25 of my front foot and do what I wanted

to do but it wasn't where I thought I'd

be

and it just hurt all the time I mean it

really was like that was my trigger

because I I have a pretty

high tolerance to pain and

it was always her like I I would dread

going to the airport knowing I had to

walk to a gate

so I knew something was wrong there I

went to a specialist

um that deals in non-union fractures and

he had a very pragmatic factual approach

and it was like oh I would do this I'm

taking that nail out and take the other

Hardware out and put it together and you

cannot move for two months

did you obey that at work I did really

yeah so what what is chilling I was not

going to risk that again did you um and

do you prioritize things like sleep

um nutrition

um just you know generally and did you

emphasize those things while you were

recovering from the injury yeah I I was

very disciplined in my diet in my

schedule and my sleep

um surprisingly I I was very busy

because

um I do speaking engagements and

suddenly my speaking engagements were

getting booked left and right

I mean to the point where I did a tour

through Europe Last Summer

of speaking engagement so that was that

was a silver lining I guess to my my

idle time

um and I leaned into it you know I made

myself available and

and uh it you know it's good money and

it was it's fun to to interact and

um but all through all through that of

course in the back of my head I was like

when when can I skate when can I skate

and then when I finally started skating

it was night and day with my leg I felt

like I could lean forward

suddenly I was learning tricks every

every session relearning tricks

um so I just I'm just lucky that I got

to live in this time of modern medicine

was that two months the longest you've

ever gone without skateboarding vert

yeah

yeah without skating at all

not even just pushing around

yeah good for you for obeying doctor's

orders and also finally and also good

for you for deciding that your rate of

recovery is going to be whatever it is

for you because I feel like I'm hearing

both things on the one hand you listen

to the medical professionals on the

other hand I'm not hearing oh you know I

looked at the average rate of recovery

from this kind of fracture this and that

it's it's like it's as if you decided

two things at once that there are

experts who have something to offer me

here I'll follow their advice and yet

I'm the expert at myself here I'm

putting myself in your first person uh

Tony's the expert in Tony and

I'm going to make sure that I come back

100 yeah or better

yeah not better but um and I've and I

have come to terms with that

because I know that I'm not going to be

pushing myself the way that I did before

I got hurt anymore

there are some tricks now that are way

more difficult just because whatever

something changed in my body and for

instance I can't grab slob like I can't

I I can't do it consistently that used

to be my go-to grab you could do that

anytime over 60 foot gaps whatever like

I could I just grab I knew where my

board was I knew that was going to hold

on to my feet and half the time I try to

grab that way now I don't reach it or I

grab my foot instead and I I don't know

I can't make the adjustment to fix it

and so I've just sort of come to terms

with well that's not the go-to grab

anymore

and that's okay I had a good run yeah

your kid's pretty pretty uh vast so

there's a lot of other things to reach

too aside from the 540 which by the way

congratulations not only is it a 540 but

uh done at least head high I've seen it

with my own eyes and um and under really

great circumstances your wife there just

the two of you and after and the trick

that broke the femur in the first place

yeah so um congratulations on that thank

you I'd like to take a quick break and

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tracker.com huberman to get 20 off are

there other things that you you're

thinking you know can't wait to get back

to that let's set aside slaw bears for

now yeah

um

yeah I I want to get my hand plants back

the way I used to do them yeah I have

yet yeah it's so invert like it's

one-handed handstand

um I can do them now but I've seen you

do them recently yeah but but I used

they used to be my signature it was a

tucking Amber and flopped all the way

back and and I can't get a hold of my

board to pull it all the way back like I

used to

um if I can get that I'll feel like

that's it that's that's that was the

last Milestone I'm not here to uh

diagnose and treat these uh specific uh

skateboard trick isms but between your

what you said about the slob air and

what you're saying about this seems like

they're same thing about about getting

your your your front hand around and

around pulling it back back in uh behind

you so maybe this is like the way that

the femur is lining up with your pelvis

and maybe some off-ramp something or

other Physical Therapy could do I'm

actually working with um at best core he

is a he is a doctor of physical therapy

and he has helped me immensely through

my recovery and when I'm frustrated with

this motion or that's the same grab

actually as in the twist

he worked on me before it and was just

contorting my body and my leg into these

positions that

I don't really even get to when I'm

skating just to prepare me for that and

he did but that's what it took

it's interesting that we're talking

about skateboarding and we're also

talking about physical therapists we're

talking about nutrition we're talking

about sleep so growing up means like

none of that none of that never imagined

any of this and I'm chuckling because

you know growing up in skateboarding

um early on for me uh not quite as early

as you but pretty early 12

um and got out of it and back and yes I

can still do a thing or two uh here and

there um but that's not the point the

point is that you know the nutrition

consisted largely of you know fast food

or whatever was around

cigarettes and beer were sort of the the

energy drinks and uh uh and um

supplements of of the times this is

fortunately changed but there there was

essentially no

Health promoting tools or aspects to it

at all but that was back then but then

over time it seems It's evolved like now

I see um I saw a couple posts from

Stevie Williams like he's in the gym

sure um I think I saw Danny Way early on

working with Paul check and doing some

balance work neck work because he had

broken his neck surfing and things of

that sort so there seems to have been a

big shift over the last 15 20 years

where skateboarders are taking good care

of their bodies like other athletes

thinking about the resilience of their

bodies and also generally taking better

care like a lot of them opt not to drink

and do drugs and all those sorts of

things so I mean how does it strike you

to see the way that skateboarding has

evolved towards the option to be much

healthier and treat it like a like a

serious sport where you're a serious

athlete a word that you know even 15

years ago 20 years ago if you called a

skip order an athlete some people might

even be offended by oh yeah people in

skateboarding right absolutely yeah

um

well to answer your question in the

early days

that was part of the the scene and the

culture just because the the it was the

antithesis to organize team sports

and mainstream culture and so it was

just like yeah this is what we do

it who cares like we drank and we skate

and everyone it was it was Wild West

right

but as I never fell into that deeply

because I saw how it affected people's

performances and the skating itself was

Paramount to me that is what I want to

focus on that's what I want to be good

at and I saw people partying and

partying their skills away so I had at

least that forethought

um and then as scanning got more

established popular

more of a career option than people

started taking it more seriously

especially competitors I mean and and

but there's such a wide swath of of what

skateboarding is and it's a big tent so

to say that it's more organized yes it's

more organized over here there's still

all these skaters over here partying

hopping fences

don't care about contests don't want

sponsors oh like GX 1000 like those kids

at bomb Hills in San Francisco like like

but that that's what I love about it is

the diversity of it all and that that's

we're all part of this scene so

I I was a competitor that was that was

my path to success and so I appreciate

that people take it more seriously now

and that they do have trainer they have

resources I mean they have sponsors that

will pay for this kind of stuff

there was no such thing I mean like at

our biggest skate contest we were all

staying at Stacy Peralta's parents house

the night before and he would take us

out to get spaghetti because he thought

carbohydrates was going to give us

energy the next day that was the extent

of training in 1983.

right but nowadays it we're treated like

High Elite athletes because they are

like if you really look at people that

are at the top of their field people

like Niger Houston

you know what I mean like the dude is a

machine he is

he is one of the most precise skaters

that we've ever seen or precise athletes

this side of Nadia coming each

you know yes I'm I'm I'm aging myself

but

what I'm saying is like this is this is

takes hardcore dedication Precision

athleticism and

devotion and so now they have the

resources to back that up and to keep it

going longer I mean yeah would I be able

to do this now especially after getting

hurt without the help of a doctor of

physical training

probably not

I'd do it on some level but I wouldn't

get to where I am now

um and so hey I think it's awesome I you

know I I never I never wanted to covet

skateboarding as this thing that no one

else could like a gatekeeper to it no

one else can touch it I always thought

there was something to skateboarding

that was magical and that was good for

mental health and that was

that was required such

um

required such passion

and I didn't I never understood why I

didn't get bigger through those those

leaning years it was always like kids

this speaks to kids like it's Daredevil

and it's active and it's exciting and

you can do it as a group but you can do

it your own way and I don't know all

those things it took a long time for

everyone else to figure it out they

definitely figured it out I mean

nowadays skaters are the cool kids in

school yeah it's in the Olympics like

there was always discussion would it be

it was an exhibition sport in the

Olympics at one point no uh no no oh I

thought it was it for maybe it had a run

it potentially being an exhibition there

were there was talk about it got it um

but it never did and and not that I mean

at some point especially in the late 90s

or 2000s

skating

was getting appreciated and and kind of

reached that threshold of of is it

mainstream well it's in it's all

McDonald's commercials so I guess that's

pretty mainstream and so we already had

come of age and it was like we don't

need the Olympics

we're already more popular than

a lot of Olympic sports right so why do

we need their validation and then at

some point it became like the the power

Dynamic shifted and it was like oh they

need our cool Factor

we don't need their validation

and I was like yeah okay you guys want

it sure

go ahead but hold the events hold the

qualifiers

we'll participate

but

we don't need this

well you've been an amazing Ambassador

for the sport that's driven so much of

that wider acceptance and progression

and invitation into different domains

one of the um things that I definitely

want to talk about is the video game

right because I think that the video

game changed a lot of things for the

general public in terms of their

perception of skateboarding I mean what

it allowed of course is this is obvious

but it allowed kids that weren't going

to you know um bang up their shins or

walk in with a broken wrist or you know

all skinned up too to do incredible

tricks but in silico on a screen right

and to

and pretend that they are the the pro

skateboarder that's essentially what

what video games are about And yet when

you can see something just like you can

imagine it in a dream or while you're

falling asleep and you can see something

and and hear an air quotes do something

in a video game it also is going to

inspire a number of kids to go outside

and grab a real skateboard and try that

or try something like that so clearly

the video game was a catalyst for what I

consider now the the wide acceptance of

skateboarding as a sport in all its

various forms

um could you just talk for a little bit

about the Genesis of the video game were

you into video games prior to the video

game

um were you into technology generally

and and what sort of motivated the

interest in the video game because it

certainly has changed the face of actual

skateboarding and the perception of

skateboarding

um well I've been into video games since

the gecko I mean I was a kid you know

playing pong Pac-Man Missile Command

Qbert you name it and then getting the

home systems in television Super NES

Commodore 64.

um

Sega yeah but but I um and I always love

technology so when I when I finally

started making money in the 80s my first

kind of big purchase in terms of that

uh in in terms of electronics was uh

Commodore Amiga

which was considered one of the highest

end uh home computers you know alongside

Mac but but more graphic oriented and

and more game-oriented

um and so I was always into that idea

that you could do this kind of stuff at

home not just in arcades

and then I gotta I got a call from a PC

programmer that wanted to pitch a skate

game and had a crude engine of um a

skater that would cruise around go in

bowls and stuff like that and it was all

keyboard controlled it was clunky but it

was something and the last thing that we

had as skating was

720 in the arcade or a skate or die for

home systems for Commodore 64. that was

like the last thing that had happened

for skateboarding

um in video games and so I went with him

I was excited to get like I got to

we got to go to Nintendo and Pitch it

um we went to Midway you know we went to

all these different uh console and

software manufacturers

and were just told that this is a bad

idea skateboarding is not popular

home video games are barely a thing why

would anyone want to buy a video game

about skateboarding

someone said those exact words to me

um at Midway

and so he got frustrated and he needed

to find a job and I was I was just kind

of free-floating so I said okay he goes

well I'm gonna I'm not going to do this

but I feel like you've established

yourself at least in the Video Game

World uh industry that you're interested

in doing something so maybe if someone

does something they'll call you and I

was like yeah right sure sure enough

like a year later Activision called me

and they said hey we heard you want to

do a video game I said well yes I would

love to work on a video game I'm not a

programmer or anything so we have

something we're working on and we'd like

to show it to you and so I went up to

Activision

um they were working on a skate game but

it was based on an engine of a game that

was already released called apocalypse

starring Bruce Willis so the first

version of my game was Bruce Willis on a

skateboard

with a gun shot to his back

in a desert Wasteland doing kickflips

and it was awesome it was it was truly

like I picked it up and I got past that

Visual and then I started playing it and

and it was intuitive it the motion felt

right the engine was right and I was

like this is

this is the Baseline of something

special

I didn't think it was going to be some

big hit I just thought this is this is

going to be appreciated by skateboarders

and that was my goal the entire uh

development process which was about a

year and a half after I signed on we

through that year and a half we were

going back and forth with they would

they would FedEx me builds on CDs I had

a modified PlayStation and I would play

it make notes and I thought man skater

was going to dig this and that was it

and skating wasn't even that popular it

was coming to you know it was starting

to get some traction what year was this

again like 98 so it was like X Games

were starting to come into the fold

people were taking note of what

skateboarding had become at that point

and then I thought this is going to be

cool skater's gonna like it and then

um

not long before the release

they called me and they said hey we want

to um we want to offer you a buyout of

future royalties for this game

um because I think you know there's I

think people are going to like it I was

like what does that mean they go we'll

give you a half a million dollars and

then you don't get royalties going

forward but you get that money up front

and

at that time my life like to hear

someone say half a million dollars

seriously sounded like a half a billion

dollars

like no one had ever

talked about numbers that big to me well

also 98 was a little bit of a of a quiet

time for verts skateboarding too right

sure yeah but yeah for yeah

luckily vert skating

still was a thing because of inline

skating

because inline skating was huge right

late 90s and they were all vert and so

we as skaters got to sort of ride those

coattails because it was like Hey There

are boat ramps because everyone's

rollerblading I forgot about that that

did like and I have honestly like I was

the special guest at a couple of inline

rollerblade shows where it was like this

is what team rollerblade live and

special guest Tony Hawk the skateboarder

and I was like hey all right dropping in

but it paid the bills yeah

um so to answer to like to to

perform what you're saying bird skating

was

it was a thing at least established in

the X Games

which was something and enough for us to

make a living

um so when they offer me this money

I actually was in a pretty good place

um in terms of

my I don't know my options my my

trajectory and I felt like and I I had

just bought a new home and I thought I'm

gonna take a chance and to see what

happens

and like that was the best financial

decision I ever met took the equity

yeah I just let it ride I was like no I

want to see what happens with this and

as soon as the game was released it was

getting

Stellar reviews and then I remember like

the very next week after it was released

never stopped saying okay we're working

on number two what do you want to do

like what do you mean

well yeah we're doing SQL which what

awesome and then we ended up doing like

10.

amazing crazy amazing

I'm thinking about your decision to not

take the cash and to see how it would go

I'm thinking about your decision to buy

a car at 16 and yet as a consequence get

pulled over because you look younger

um I'm thinking about the time when

through the graciousness of your parents

who took me in because I had no money to

get back up to Northern California and

they couldn't get a hold of my mom

um they took me to your home but then

they took me to where you were living

the next day which was in Fallbrook you

don't remember this but I do and I know

you've heard this story before so

forgive me because most people listening

haven't but I remember getting driven up

to Fallbrook you had the ramps in your

backyard

I walked in got introduced to you you

were very gracious said hello what's up

I said feel free to push around on the

ramps outside it was the mini it was a

spine ramp yeah

um two ramps back to back folks it's

fine uh sorry nomenclature

um I think Ray Underhill was there

yeah he lived there for a while yeah and

as I recall you had

um pretty vast music collection and

we'll talk about music

um but it also seemed there was a couple

cars in the driveway and whatnot but

it's clear to me based on a number of

things and that interaction and what I

observed there that either you had

someone in your ear either your dad or

your mom or both or maybe it had been

Stacy or maybe it was somebody else who

was advising you to make very good

financial decisions like not spend all

your money or continue to spend all your

money

um to invest in things you know or maybe

it was just instilled in you at a young

age who knows

I'm asking because I think so many

people burn their early success you know

what represents a lot of wealth for them

early on they burn that where they start

making just bad decisions you explained

before why you tended to avoid drugs and

alcohol and certainly um any severe

relationship to drugs or alcohol that

would keep you from progressing and

skateboarding but you know the ability

to make really good decisions as a young

famous athlete

is more rare than it is common

even when people have coaches so I'm

curious you know where did that um

shrewdness and that Prudence come from

and was Frank your dad and maybe Nancy

also you know advising you all along

like hey you know

um think smart be smart because clearly

you've made some some very smart

decisions um he was definitely

a guide in it he he was the first one

who said you should probably

buy real estate I was 17 so I didn't

even know that was possible but he

co-signed made it possible

um but then after that I ended up buying

that home that you went to and it was

four acre property and we built these

ramps on it and that was amazing and

definitely helped Propel my skating to a

different level than I ever imagined but

at some point that was just a drain and

it was a drain financially and I was

living beyond my means and my income

kept dropping because we're talking

about not long after that was 91 92 the

slowest days of skating and I've got

this giant mortgage

and I've got this property and these

ramps that I can't afford to upkeep I

can barely afford my water bill at one

point you know and so

what you saw might have seemed stable

but behind the scenes it was it was

starting to unravel birdhouse hadn't

been started birdhouse was started in 92

and when I started birdhouse I took the

equity from that house to start it

because I didn't I burned through my

savings from trying to keep this place

going

um so I took a second mortgage out on

that house right I took my Equity out

started birdhouse sold the house for

what I had taken out and then moved to

my original place that I had when I was

in high school and just

pulled back on expenses I think that was

that was when I really became shrewd

because I had to I had I had a first

child

I had an income that was very uncertain

very fluctuating and I was just eating

Taco Bell and Top Ramen and peanut

butter jelly sandwiches and and

not spending anything and and taking

every job

like the most random demo requests or we

want you to be a consultant on this

commercial because I'm too old I'm 24.

I'm too old to be the guy skating

because it has to be youth right but

they're like well we want to see what's

possible so can you come up the day

before and show us the ropes and so I

would be the stunt skater

that's filling in to show them the

Angles and stuff and then they would go

higher Chet Thomas

as the young kid

and then I would stand around I was

getting paid I didn't care I think I

remember those commercials It Was a

Serial commercial something like that uh

the serial commercial was uh Chris

Miller Frosted Flakes right and I was

Tony the Tiger

guys you chat uh yes

um I throughout the birdhouse which is

your company but without telling people

what is a skateboard company I remember

uh Willie Santos was early on I remember

his super nice kid I used to see him at

the contest I remember thinking well

Tony Hawk has his own company for

skateboarders we had a team you know

like willy willy was a maestro

um Jeremy Klein legendary Street Pioneer

uh Steve Berra who's kind of a we called

it ATV but Street and vert

um we had uh ocean Howell it was like

our number one amateur we had Andrew

Reynolds Matt Beach

um we had a team it was full on was it

fun to move from Ryder to also Ryder but

team manager owner was it fun it just it

was just necessary

I can't say it was fun I mean yeah it

was it was fun because we were still

just

kind of Reckless and

driving you know six of us in a van

driving to skate shops across the

country and

begging them for 300 bucks so that we

could get gas and food in the hotel room

and

get on our way

um

I don't know it just it but for me it

just felt like a necessity to keep to to

that was what I had to do to make a

brand happen

and so I was willing to do it

um and but

it was exhausting

yeah because I had to be the

had to be the the coach

and the tour manager

and the skater

you know I was putting myself out there

on like the worst conditions

and just rolling my ankle left and right

and it was and it was all Street and it

was just wasn't my thing it was it was

hard but I just I loved it it made it

happen in my mind I'm thinking you had

to be Tony Hawk the skateboarder Frank

Hawk the organizer yeah and Stacy

Peralta the yeah because Stacy had been

a pro skateboarder I still think of him

as a skateboarder yeah even though he's

filmmaker right skateboard just like I

still think of Spike Jones's

skateboarder bmxer filmmaker

um seems like you had to integrate all

of those

and I mentioned that because

I am curious I think a lot of people are

probably curious like are you the type

of person like sit back in a chair at

night and think like okay like how I'm

gonna do this I mean are you

contemplative or is it really you just

identify what needs to be done this year

and over the next three years and you

know set your Milestones kind of short

in I guess so now we're back then back

then

oh no everything was just in the moment

we got to get here

we got to get to Dallas by tomorrow

like as soon as this Demo's over getting

the van we're going

um we gotta get a hotel room

you know it was just stuff like that it

was it was very much but but I I

respected I think I learned to respect

um

punctuality

because I travel with playing at skaters

that were not and didn't care and show

up late and was like dude and like I

don't know these guys and then when I

was in charge it was like we're going to

be on time because we have to respect

other people's time

and we said we're going to be here at

three o'clock we're going to be there

three o'clock

um and

that's not easy with a skate crew

Mike blaback who as you know is it's a

girl to the Hebrew and Lab podcast I

talk about that we've got some other

um guys that came over from DC to as

filmers and editors for us and you know

they're so punctual and they're so on it

and I notice you showed up early today

right right on timer early

um early by five minutes

um and that is a distinguishing factor I

think in any occupation but especially

in skateboarding where there's this kind

of looseness sure and so if you do show

up on time it really means a lot

um the professionalism that you know was

instilled in you it's it's clear that

different places where that's showing up

mentioned the shrewdness about the

business decisions I'm curious about

another aspect of that which is maybe a

little more cryptic which is you know

whether or not it was the CD collection

that I saw or your mentioned of the car

you're just in video games it seems that

one thing that you've done that a lot of

guys that I knew because back then by

the way it was mostly guys now so we

said they're women doing it too

um women and girls

it seems like you have a lot of other

hobbies and interests music and Etc but

that we never heard about you getting

like distracted or pulled down those

lines like we didn't hear about you

going and surfing and getting hurt hurt

surfing so that you couldn't skate we're

getting really into motorcycles or race

racing cars right you know um some

people went hard left out of

skateboarding into that like Ken Block

the late great Ken Block but that became

his main thing seems like you you knew

that skateboarding was the main frame

and stayed with that

um and yet you have a lot of other

interests yeah I think I I well

with other sports especially

like Motocross I I have this huge

respect for Motocross I think it's super

exciting I would love to do it and I

know that I would not Escape unscathed

like I would definitely want to learn

the tricks

do whips and flips and whatever and I'm

gonna get hurt and I I don't want to

risk my skate career for that so I I

purposely pulled away from that type of

thing

um the last knee surgery I had is

because I overshot a jump in Mammoth on

my snowboard so that was a lesson I was

like don't what are you doing just

Cruise why yeah stay on the ground right

hit the powder right you know free ride

with your Bros because I learned my

lesson and so so yeah you're right but

at the same time like I still I still

love going surfing and snowboarding I

don't do them as much obviously

um but but those are part of of what I

did all growing up

um and they're important to me

um I did you know do a couple of

celebrity car races like a NASCAR race

and

um I totaled a car in the Long Beach

Grand Prix

because this dude ramming to the wall

and it was like well that was fun but

I'm not

I don't I don't have the bandwidth to

get that serious about it and now you

have a family of course too so of course

yeah I mean and and those things as fun

as they are and as as

I don't know

um

as sort of auxiliary as as they are they

require a lot of time

I mean just for instance that Long Beach

Grand Prix they want you to go stay in

Palmdale for like a week and a half and

train

and and figure out how to truly know how

to drive and be safe and it's like I

don't know I ain't got time for that

yeah that's time you're not

skateboarding or with your family right

yeah right now I feel the same way if I

get pulled away from Reading papers and

prepping podcasts and

reading the latest research and thinking

about experiments we could do then I for

more than a couple of days I started

feeling the itch I have a feeling this

stuff is programmed into one's nervous

system after a while like you've been

skateboarding for so long that if you go

a few days

it probably just your system is is

water or something oh yeah for sure I

mean

um well just for instance uh our ramp is

uh being torn down on Sunday today is

Friday our Ram is being turned on on

Sunday at 10 A.M to be moved to Salt

Lake City for our big bird event

I'm going there at 8 30.

so I can get a session before I can

start down I love it on Father's Day

that's my father's day I'm going to work

at 8 30 a.m on Sunday I love it

speaking of family and lineage uh tell

us about your kids you've got some

talented skateboarders in your family

besides yourself I do um well I have

four of my own and I have two step kids

and um they all skate my daughter not so

much anymore but all the boys five boys

uh are all really into it

um my oldest son is the most uh

he's the most prominent because he

turned Pro

um and has I mean

you know has his own following has a

name for himself uh Riley and he's 30.

yeah he kills it on Street he's a big

street skateboarder he does yeah um but

that you know they're they're all good

they're all good skaters in their own

ways and uh

it's so fun I mean I I I didn't of

course they're surrounded by it their

whole life especially Riley because when

he was young I I didn't really have the

means to have child care whatever so I

just said take him with me on tourism

and whatnot so he was always around it

so he got good at it by default but at

some point started to shy away from him

because he felt the pressure and My

Shadow and it was like I don't this

isn't fun I don't people expect me to be

super good or I have to do this stuff

and so he went shied away from it but

then found

a bunch of his friends in high school

they love skating he's still good at us

so he that he found his crew and they've

all found their Crews

uh completely independent of me and so

when we go on vacation

for instance we we were last year we

were in uh or two years ago we were on

the big on Hawaii they want to go to Ski

parks

I don't want to go to the skate parks

I'm on vacation it's also a little harsh

stuff it's a great way to get hurt right

what's that over in Hawaii it's all

weather worn oh yeah and it's not even

my scene but but then so I go I'm I'm so

I'm their chauffeur and I'm their Filmer