Robert Greene: A Process for Finding & Achieving Your Unique Purpose

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

[Music]

life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine my guest today is Robert Green

Robert Green is an author who has

written more than five best-selling

books including the 48 Laws of Power the

laws of human nature and Mastery he did

his bachelor's training at the

University of California Berkeley and

the University of Wisconsin at Madison

Robert Green's books are both unique and

important for several reasons not the

least of which is that they explore the

interaction between the psychology of

self self-exploration and the psychology

of human interaction all rooted in

history and modern culture and at the

same time in a way that pertains to

everybody I first learned about Robert's

work from reading the book Mastery which

to my mind is a brilliant exploration

and a practical tool for how to think

about and pursue one's purpose purpose

whenever I'm asked for book suggestions

I always include Mastery in my top three

recommendations during today's

discussion we cover a wide range of

topics including how to find and pursue

and Achieve one's purpose we talk about

the selection of a life partner as well

as romantic and other types of

relationships we also discussed the

topics of motivation and urgency and

this concept of death ground which arose

during our discussion of Robert's recent

stroke Robert stroke rendered him

certain limitations but also has allowed

him to explore how to write how to

exercise indeed how to interface with

life in general in new ways that allow

him to continue to expand his sense of

purpose I'm certain that by the end of

today's episode you will have gleaned

tremendous amounts of new knowledge that

will allow you to navigate forward along

the path to your purpose perhaps find

your purpose if you feel you haven't

done that yet as well as to greatly

enhance your relationship with yourself

with others and indeed to the world

around you before we begin I'd like to

emphas EMP iiz that this podcast is

separate from my teaching and research

roles at Stanford it is however part of

my desire and effort to bring zero cost

to Consumer information about science

and science related tools to the general

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access a free 30-day trial and now for

my discussion with Robert Green Robert

I'm so happy you're here I'm really

really happy to be here Andrew thank you

so much for inviting me a short

story in 2015 I was teaching a course to

undergraduates this was a big course 450

students where was this this was when I

was a professor at University of

California San Diego I was about to move

back to Stanford um but the course was

entitled neural circuits in health and

disease but there was a final lecture

where I would do a lot of Q&A with the

students about science about careers

about career paths and what I found was

that many of the students had questions

about not just science but about how to

learn and forage for information yeah

and I recommended three books at the end

of the course every year that I taught

it I taught it for four years and one of

the books was the book longitude which

is a wonderful story about discovery of

timekeeping devices at c um one book

I'll leave as a mystery um not to be not

to be mysterious but because it's not

it's it's a science book I'll just tell

you what it is it's um uh principles of

Neuroscience so I thought that they I

don't know that one yeah it's a big it

makes a better a door stop uh for most

than than a book but it's it's a

wonderful resource um if you want to

learn about neuroscience and your book

Mastery wow and the reason I recommended

Mastery is because these students were

soon going to go into the great Jungle

of you know post uh undergraduate

education and and for me I found Mastery

to be an absolutely transformative book

in that it taught me so much about how

to learn from others how to expect

certain types of um interactions when

one kind of assigns themselves to a

mentor um and vice versa and it talked

about some things that we'll get into in

more depth today but not the least of

which is about identifying that um

unique seed that exists within all of us

that can guide our best decisions in

terms of finding our purpose and it and

so I will usually end with a great debt

of gratitude and I'll probably do that

again at the end but I want to start

with a great debt of gratitude than

Mastery transformed my entire life and

and in many ways this podcast probably

wouldn't exist were it not for Mastery

because um it really embedded in me this

idea that we all have uh a deeper

purpose and it explains how to go about

finding that purpose so I tell you that

and I also will use that as a way for um

asking you now since I'm sure people's

ears are pricked up to this you know how

do you find your purpose um could you

share with us what what it is to find

one's purpose and how early life events

perhaps can cue us to what that purpose

is for each of us well thank you for

that that marvelous introduction I'm

almost blushing that's that's fantastic

story um well you know being a human

being is not easy as opposed to an

animal because we're born and nobody

gives us like a direction our parents

might be a little bit our college

teachers Etc mentors but generally we're

on our own and it's a very very

difficult process you wake up in the

morning and you don't really know what

you're what you can do you could choose

12 different paths it can be very

confusing and very overwhelming when you

find that sense of purpose when you find

what I call your life's task everything

has a direction everything has a purpose

your energy is concentrated it's not

like you're just going down a single

narrow pathway it's not like life

becomes boring and it's just about

discipline and solving problems it's

actually the most exciting thing that

can ever happen to you because you never

have that lost feeling you wake up in

the morning and you go yeah this is what

I need to accomplish people come at you

with all kinds of distractions and

boring and irritating things you're able

to cut it out it's just the most

marvelous piece of internal radar that

you can have so I genuinely wish that

everybody can find that that kind of

internal radar and so it's not easy and

I understand that there's no like

instant formula because we're all about

instant formulas it's difficult and I

want you to know that so it's not like

Robert can give me the answer in three

minutes no I can't but there's a process

involved it's not it's not you know a

mystery you can follow a very singular

process and the idea is you're were

talking about

childhood the way I like to frame it is

when you were born you are a phenomenon

you are unique your DNA has never

occurred in the history of the universe

going back billions of years it will

never occur in the future your life

experien with your parents and

everything that you experienc in your

early years going on up is unique it's

yours you're one of a kind right so that

is your source of power to waste that is

just the worst thing you can do in your

life and what what the power is is

finding that uniqueness what makes you

you and how you can mine that and how

you can go deep into it and use that to

create a career path right and so I tell

people when you're a child when you're

four or five or even younger you have

what the great psychologist maslo called

impulse voices they Little voices in

your head that say I love this I hate

that I like this food I don't like when

Mommy moves this way I like when Daddy

comes from from here you're very CED

into who you are and what you like and

what you don't like and these voices

kind of direct you in certain ways

right and when you're very young they

direct you towards intellectual mental

Pursuits as well and there's a book I

recommend for everybody uh it's Howard

Gardner's five frames of mind it's

helped me immensely the idea is he talks

about five forms of

intelligence our problem is we think of

intelligence as most intellectual but

there are many forms of intelligence

there's the intelligence that has to do

with words there's abstract intelligence

that has to do with patterns and

Mathematics there's kinetic intelligence

that has to do with the body there's

social intelligence he has five of them

and the idea is your brain naturally

veers towards one of them it can Veer

towards two of them that happens but

generally one of them kind of dominates

right and it's like a grain in your

brain that's going in a certain

direction ction you want to go with that

grain and because that's where your

power will lie so when you're young if

you go back and think about when you

were four or five you you can maybe get

a picture of some kind of direction or

voice inside of you that was impelling

you towards this I know for me it was

words from I can remember when I was six

years old I was just obsessed with words

just the letters in Words almost like in

almost slightly schizophrenic way I

would spell words backwards I would take

them apart I would do anagrams I love

paland drums right so I had a thing

about words and language it's very

Primal some people you know Albert

Einstein when he was four years old his

father gave him a birthday gift of a

compass and he was just mesmerized by

this Compass the idea that there are

invisible forces out there in the cosmos

moving this needle and he's obsessed

with the idea of invisible forces Steve

Jobs when he was like seven or eight or

maybe younger in Berling game California

his father they passed by a store with

de technological devices in the window

and he was just hypnotized by the design

of those devices and the glass tubes and

everything so he wanted to go in that

direction you know Tiger Woods saw his

father hitting golf balls in the garage

and he was just like screaming with joy

he had to he had to do that right you

know I can give you a million different

examples of this of course these are

people who are famous obviously we can

go back and find that it's easier but

what happens to you and please cut me

off if I'm going on too long no please

continue please what happens to you is

you're seven now you're getting older

and you're starting to not hear that

voice anymore you're hearing the voice

of your teachers telling you you're not

good at this field you need to get

better at math you know you shouldn't be

interested in these sports or anything

you should be going this dire your

parents are starting to tell you this is

the career they want for the direction

they want you to go in right

you start hearing that more than your

own voice and as you get older it gets

worse and worse and worse then when

you're a teenager it's all about what

other people are doing your peers what's

cool what's not cool you know and that

kind of is more so all of these noise

enters your brain and you can't hear

that anymore you don't know who you are

and so you go to

college you kind of maybe choose a a

major that seems practical that your

parents want you to to go into maybe you

kind of wander around you're not sure

and then you enter the work world

without that inner radar that I'm

talking about and you brother you're

lost right where should I go well I need

to make money right and so you make a

choice based on the need to make a lot

of money some not everyone but some

people do that and I understand that

need we all need to make a living but

that can set you off on a very bad path

because you're not connected emotionally

the thing is when you figure out that

Primal inclination that grain that's

inside of you then you have the the

energy to to do to be disciplined to go

through boring tasks to learn you learn

at a faster rate because you're

emotionally engaged when you're

emotionally engaged in a subject the

brain learns twice three times four

times as fast as when you're not I

always give the example in college I

studied foreign languages which was kind

of a passion of mine for three or four

years I studied French and then I went

to Paris and I couldn't speak a word it

was it was useless because it didn't

teach me anything practical right I was

totally confused and then but I was in

Paris and I and I loved it and I wanted

to live there right and I had a

girlfriend and I needed to speak French

to her and I can tell you in one month I

learned more than those four years of

University because I wanted to because I

was engaged my emotions were there it

was like I had to survive to learn

French whereas so most of us we don't

have a need really to learn this subject

We're Half we're paying half attention

but when you find that thing that really

connects to you you're paying deep

attention your emotions are engaged

you're learning at a much faster rate

okay and so the thing is how do you find

that when you're older when you're 21 I

I I give people a lot of help and it's

usually not so difficult we can go

through that process it gets harder when

you're 30 and you've been wandering

around but it's not impossible I didn't

really start find my exact path until I

was 38 39 to be honest so there's hope

when you get 40 and you get 50 gets more

and more difficult right and it's very

sad if you wasted that seed of

uniqueness that I'm talking about and I

tell people there are ways of going back

and we go through a process like

archaeology we have to dig and dig and

dig and find those bones from your

childhood that indicated what you were

meant to do do but when you find your

life's task everything opens up it

doesn't mean you figured out okay I've

got to aim for this particular job when

I'm 28 that's not how it works it gives

you a sense of direction you can try

different things you can experiment you

can have fun when you're in your 20s

you're going to learn you're going to

learn skills but it gives you an overall

framework instead of whoa all this

confusion this chaos social media the

internet I could go here here here

you're lost at C it gives you a very

important sense of direction

Compass as you described this I I have

this image of um you know you mentioned

animals um that presumably don't have a

lot of flexibility in terms of the

niches they can exist in but the way I

imagine this process is that as a human

we're plopped into a environment and

here I'm using analogy where um we don't

really know if we are an aquatic animal

a terrestrial animal or a or an Aven

right or an amphibian or an amphibian

for that matter

um and to make the wrong choice right to

be an amphibian who's trying to fly

although I'm sure they're out there um

in the animal kingdom uh it it's not

just a waste of time it's probably

deadly um and not to overd dramatize the

the failure of finding one's purpose but

I see it that way whereas um perhaps we

could just say that the process of

finding one's purpose is to to realize

like ah you know um I'm an amphibian I

can go in and out of water whereas a

bunch of other creatures around me stop

at the water's edge right right and this

is really cool and a bunch of these

other things like these flying things

that they can't actually even go in the

water some of them might you know be on

the surface or dive into it but they

they can't do what I can do so the

process of self-discovery it sounds like

it's about um restricting one's choices

to a a a sort of wedge within the full

landscape of of options and um you know

for me I can certainly recall after

reading Mastery it helped me recall some

early seed emotions that I experienced

as a very distinct sensation in my body

can you describe that yeah um without

making it too um specific to my my

unique taste you know as a kid I loved

um flora and fauna I loved learning

about biology sure yeah no surprise

there um but animals and how they move

in particular and fish and going to a a

proper aquarium store for the first time

for me and going snorkeling for the

first time was like Wow and even as I

describe it it's almost like my body

floats I feel it in my left arm of all

things and it feels like there's

something to do about it it's not just

that I'm in observation of things that

Delight me right it's like there's

something there's an activation State

created within me like I got to do

something with this and typically it's

tell everybody about it until they won't

listen anymore um but oftentimes it's to

also draw those things to think about

them and I just Delight in them it's a

constant source of delight and so seeds

such as those and there are a few other

things in that in that landscape of

Flora and Fauna and learning about

animals and biology including the human

animal and then organizing information

feels so satisfying to me it's like a

drug that um and so it just felt feels

like this you know Eternal spring of of

life right and so for me that's what it

was and to and in 2015 when I was

teaching that course the course I loved

but I was feeling a little bit astray in

my scientific career and then I read

Mastery and I realized yes I love

running laboratory I love teaching but

there's something else for me and it has

to do not with a podcast I didn't even

know what a podcast I probably I knew

what a podcast was I was listening to

podcasts at that time but um but I

wasn't on social media I had no thoughts

of having a podcast but what I wanted

was that feeling in

its total number of forms that's the

goal get that feeling in as many forms

as possible right is that is that about

that's that's that's absolutely perfect

because the connection to what I'm

talking about it's not an intellectual

thing it's it's visceral it's emotional

it's physical right and you feel it in

your body and when you're doing it it's

like it's at your level it's like you're

swimming with the current you feel it

things are easy everything clicks

together there's a delight not

everything is going to be delightful

there's going to be tedium involved

there's going to be moments of boredom

but you're able to withstand the moments

of boredom because you feel that deep

overall connection so yes that's

precisely what I'm talking about I mean

it's for me it's a little bit a similar

thing is I said about words but the

other thing that I was obsessed with

when I was a kid was early human

ancestors don't ask me why I just was so

obsessed with our ancestors millions of

years ago and how it's possible to be

living here in the 60s or 70s with cars

and everything but to come to where we

are now and I wrote a a short story when

I was 8 years old about a vulture It Was

Written from the point of view of a

vulture watching the first humans kind

of emerge on the planet I'm sure it was

absolutely awful Dreadful but the weird

thing is I'm writing a new book and all

I'm doing in that book is going into ear

into early humans and I feel like a kid

again I'm so excited I'm so happy so I

can very much relate to your

story you mentioned these five different

forms of intelligence or frame frames of

Mind as you referred to them um and

I'm certainly aware that you know I lean

towards a more intellectual interests

although as you pointed out the the

excitement the Delight is visceral yeah

and the actions are actions they're of

the body ultimately right um one has to

draw speak write books Etc um to to

transmute that excitement into something

real for people that are not as

intellectually tuned but maybe are

kinesthetically tuned for instance um I

can only wonder what that's like uh I'm

not completely uncoordinated but I don't

think I have a kinesthetic Attunement uh

or frame of mind but I for instance um

had a podcast listener mention that they

think in feels that they literally

experience thought as a Ser as sort of a

patchwork of of bodily Sensations right

and that thought for them is not of the

stuff from the neck up but only from the

neck down which to me was really

intriguing

and so I only rais this because um there

have to be a as you point out there's an

infinite number of different sort of um

orientations based on our unique DNA and

experience but what do you

think explains why these particular

seeds or uh as you point out like the

the the direction that the grain runs in

the brain I mean it's it's partially

going to be nature it's going to be DNA

sure um but we we're talking about this

as if there's some exciting or a

inspiring or Delight ful thing that

captures us can it be the other way too

can it be um you know one has a bad

experience as a child in an intellectual

environment and then decides you know

I'm I'm going in the D things of the

body feel good if things of the mind of

intellect feels bad and does it matter

whether or not we are drawn to our

Purpose By recognizing what we love or

what we hate um or are both useful oh

they're both very very useful

um you know a lot of intelligence is is

not is non-verbal we think in terms of

images we're we're very much infected by

the emotions of other people so I know

for instance uh my mother is very very

interested in history she's obsessed

with history and I probably absorbed her

interest in history I don't think

there's a genetic a gene for that

interest you know so you're you're going

to absorb things from your parents as

well so it's not all

just genetic but yeah what you hate will

pay a big have a big thing but the

problem with doing that is if you go

into a direction and you're in you're in

elementary school Etc and they force you

to learn math and you hate it what it

tends to do is it turns you off from

learning in general you think I don't

want to I don't want to I don't want to

be disciplined I don't want to go

through anything because it's painful

doesn't lead anywhere it's not me

frustration it turns you off from

learning in general so it's it's really

really important for a child to have the

love experience as early as possible so

that they can know what they hate and

why they hate it right and then they can

Rebel and they can go into that field as

opposed to I hate learning I hate

discipline I hate studying I hate trying

things over and over again if you're

kinesthetically oriented and you know a

part of me I understand that because I

love sports is you have to you have to

practice it's going to take a lot of

it's not you're not going to instantly

be good at something right and that's

going to require a love of it right but

if your math experience CU I hate

learning you're not it's going to

transfer to sports you're going to hate

discipline in general so it's very

important for parents to let that child

have at least glimmers of that love

moment I know for me when I um finished

college and I entered the work world I

had to get a job I got worked in

journalism I hated it I hated working

for other people I hated office politics

I hated all the egos I hated the

smarminess I hated the lack of quality

it was all just about you know making

money and getting things out there and

then I worked in Hollywood I hated

Hollywood I hated working in Hollywood

that formed me very much made me go in

the direction that I went in but only

from the basis of I knew that I wanted

to be a writer so you know that's very

important that it's not just hate it can

form you but there also has to be that

positive deep emotional love of

something that also is grounded in you

in some way what you just said really

highlights the fact that energy and

motivation can come from either either

pressure you know desire for something

or desire to get away from something and

um earlier when you were talking about

um how we are so much more engaged and

driven toward things that stir us

emotionally and and actually we know

based on the the neurosciences you know

too I'm sure that um only by the release

of certain neurochemicals in the brain

and body would our brain have any reason

to change right if you don't feel

agitation and you can do everything that

you're trying to do of course your brain

wouldn't change like why would it right

that agitation is a is a signature of

the neurochemicals that are saying hey

something's different now right right

you might need to do something different

including rewire yourself right um and

that can come from positive or negative

experiences I'm obsessed with this ideaa

of energy I mean we all want to have

more energy and focus and normally we

hear about the concept of energy in the

context of caloric energy like what

should we eat and when and how much and

we need to get sleep but what you're

really referring to is neural energy

like the engagement of ourselves that's

you know uh sitting there ready to be

engaged but it requires the right

experiential macronutrients right the

experiential micronutrients as opposed

to of course we need good nutrition but

that's not sufficient it's NE necessary

but not sufficient so uh would you say

that when um we are let let's say since

a good number of our listeners are in

adulthood um you know from our 20s on

that the things that excite us as adults

that really generate some feeling of

Readiness or or grab our attention um

are still informative toward guiding our

decisions about best life and life

purpose well um what do you what exactly

do you mean by that I mean like because

there are things that excite you in in a

kind of a quick way like you know where

you have to relieve some tension and you

there's entertainment and there's things

that kind of give you pretty immediate

gratification and there's the larger P

picture of something that will give you

fulfillment over years to come so you

can feel that when you're older and you

can pay attention to it but a lot of the

time is we we're paying too much

attention to the immediate pleasures of

life to what gives us instant Gra

ification and that's what we're grabbing

for so this is a much more kind of

deeper process that involves that

digging that I was saying it it's it's

deeper than just kind of I like this I

don't like that you know kind of thing

it's it's more it's more something macro

than than just just that and so when

you're in your 20s or in your 30s or

your 40s you want to be paying attention

to yourself and the problem with people

in the world today is you're not paying

attention to yourself you're not inside

your own head you don't hear those

voices you don't hear what you love what

you like anymore because as I said

there's so many of these other

distractions going on and so you're

always like attuned to what other people

like right because you're in social

media this is what people are following

this is what they're interested in as

opposed to disengaging backing off from

that and and looking at yourself and

going through the process of that's not

me actually I don't really like that you

know and so what you're talking about is

I think very profound is levels of

frustration or anxiety are definite

signals that you must pay attention to

that they're telling you this isn't a

good direction for you this is a waste

of time for you and in general I tell

people selfawareness being able to hear

those voices to understand that your

frustration is telling you something and

sometimes you you just act on it without

understanding it but understanding why

you're frustrated why you don't like

your career why you're not happy about

where you're going is the key to

everything it will open up it will

actually be able even in your 30s to

return you to that childhood inclination

but if you can't listen to where those

emotions come from then they're useless

they're not teaching you

anything as we all know quality

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highquality unprocessed or minimally

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probiotics and prebiotics and fiber to

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microbiome now I like most everybody try

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one of the challenges that I and so many

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huberman to claim that special offer so

it sounds like one of the goals is to

engage in what I'll just call for the

moment unadulterated self referencing

you know unadulterated uh in the the all

senses of the word because um as a child

as you pointed out um at stages of life

that are before puberty they're

literally prex um which I think is

important right because um puberty to me

as a neurobiologist who started off as a

developmental

neurobiologist I can tell you that

puberty is the most profound

transformation that the brain undergoes

for sure in the entire lifespan there's

just absolutely no question about it

everything is different after puberty

because of all of the new relational

dynamics that become apparent and our

potential involvement in them yeah it's

just it's you know it's not talked about

enough how dramatically puberty changes

the brain sure I mean we are different

people before and after puberty hormones

that are suddenly raging the hormones

are there and it's not just changes in

how we view the world but changes in how

the World Views us and not just through

the lens of sexuality but also so um

expectation of what we are capable of

what we are responsible for or not

responsible for our learning capacity I

mean puberty is like this you know it's

also the most rapid stage of Aging in

our entire lifespan those kids that go

home for summer and then come back like

shaving you know I was sort of a late I

wasn't a late bloomer but I had a long

protracted puberty but I remember those

kids I'm sure we we all remember those

kids um everything changes and so I

think prior to puberty these seeds as

you described them of of delight or of

resistance to things think they are

unadulterated they're not contaminated

by the voices and expectations of others

and so I can see the challenge of

reaching back to those as an adult um I

wonder if this relates to um something

that I've heard you talk about before

although perhaps not as much as some of

the other topics you've discussed

publicly which is um the real versus the

false Sublime oh um could you perhaps

just Define for us what Sublime really

is what a Sublime experience is and and

the distinction between real and false

wow Sublime experiences because I I feel

like this relates to finding that seed

right it's it's about finding authentic

seeds of within us as opposed to when

emotions can be distracting and

misleading wow I never thought I never

made that connection and it's the book

that I'm writing right now so thank you

for that I have to think about that I'm

actually I'm writing a book on the

sublime and um I have several ways of

kind of illustrating I generally like to

use a metaphor and the metaphor is that

being a human being being a social human

being living in a particular culture

means that you live inside of a circle

and that Circle of that time are the

conventions of thinking of ideas that

are acceptable of behavior that is

acceptable this is where you where you

can go mentally where you can go

physically you know all the codes and

conventions so

that Circle for ancient Egypt and for

21st century America they're obviously

very different but it's the same Circle

it's the same limiting factor you're not

supposed to go outside of it these are

thoughts experiences Behavior you're not

supposed to do the sublime is what lies

just outside that Circle um the word

sublime comes from on the threshold of

it's like here's a door and the sublime

is literally at the threshold of the

door you're looking out into something

else right and the quintessential

Sublime experience is a near-death

experience you're standing on the on the

doorway the threshold of death itself

right and so in my book I'm illustrating

the different kinds of sublime

experiences that you can have in

relation to the cosmos in the relation

to thinking about being alive just being

alive is the strangest sensation you can

possibly have I have I know that very

person personally after my stroke I go

into childhood chapter on childhood and

how Sublime your own childhood was I go

into animals relation to animals I go

have a chapter about the brain chapter

about love I'm working right now on a

chapter about history okay but what I'm

trying to say is the human brain is

wired for these experiences is wired for

transcendental experiences that take us

out of the narrow little realm that we

live in because we're aware of our death

as the only animal truly conscious of

its own mortality and it frightens the

hell out of us and the idea that we can

see something larger than than just the

the the banal parts of our life is a

doorway that op allows us to kind of

transcend the moment to feel connected

to something larger to feel connected to

some power in the cosmos to Evolution

itself right and so we're wired for that

and I'm writing a chapter now about

40,000 years ago at the moment where I

think the sublime was born is a story

that I'm trying to illustrate right now

with our upper Paleolithic

ancestors so it's deep inside of us we

need it we have to have it in the 21st

century we have very few avenues for it

any real Avenues religion used to be the

main kind of way of accessing this and

so because it's so deep we reach for

false forms of the sublime that give us

the sense that we're we're transcending

but it's not at all because Sublime has

to come from within it's an experience

that you have that you're generating in

your own mind and your own experience

the false Sublime comes from outside it

comes from drugs it comes from alcohol

it comes from shopping it comes from

online rage it comes from joining a

cause and just getting out all your

aggression and violence right it comes

from causes it comes from

addictions okay it giv you a sense it

calms you down and makes you feel like

there's something else going on in life

besides your job that you're you're sick

of but it's not real it's not lasting

it's false it's an illusion it's not

based on anything real it's not

connecting to that deep part of human

nature that's wired for these

experiences so what happens is you have

to have more and more and more and more

of it you have to have you know more of

this rush you need more of the drug you

need more of the alcohol you need more

of the sex you need more of the horn

it's never going to satisfy you but the

real Sublime you don't have that feeling

it's like it's transformative once you

feel it it lasts for you for the rest of

your life it's what maslo again called a

peak experience so that's the difference

between the faults and the real Sublime

I haven't quite connected it to what you

were saying but if I think about it I

think you're on something very

interesting I mean maybe the connection

I was trying to draw was uh doesn't hold

but yeah for me

um those early experiences of seeing

things that just delighted me in a way

that felt like that not only is well the

the the thought process was a long time

ago when something like oh my goodness I

can't believe this exists this is so

cool this is the coolest thing and so

clearly create an activation state

within me but then there was also a

thought and a feeling of again a lot

this is or pre preverbal it's not truly

preverbal I could speak at that age but

it was um that's of me and I'm of it

right there's a connection there and

then it was there's something to do

about this the activation State created

in the body was you know I I need to

learn more about this I need to tell

people about this I need to think about

this I need more examples of this and

see whether or not they're all like this

you know etc etc um so certainly it

meets some of the criteria of a Sublime

experience definitely and I knew again

when I was in graduate school and again

when I was this young Professor about to

transition to tenure that I knew it was

going going to do something different it

was as if I was on the threshold of

something but I didn't know what that

next thing was but I could trust it

because of that early experience of

knowing that's the threat like like I'm

an amphibian this is my environment and

you're an amphibian too right and we're

different amphibians but you know we're

going to be amphibians together right

and then and there's a permanence to it

that it does seem to transcend time you

I'm obsessed with time perception so I

have to be careful not to go off on a

tangent about that but the human brain's

ability to F slice or macro slice time

is incredible and and it's been said of

um not just addictions but also

interactions with toxic people that they

murder time that that humans have a I

think it was young I I'll look it up but

um one of the great psychologists said

something to the extent that um

addictive behaviors thought patterns

substances are humans attempts to murder

time so that they don't have to address

their mortality yeah and that's always

made a lot of sense to me yeah we say

kill time is our expression kill time

through passive engagement but also kill

time through um trying to get

overwhelmed or overtaken by an

experience or a substance as opposed to

when you're truly connected you have

that sense of

flow and 3 hours can pass by and you're

not even aware of it so time is a

totally subjective experience it can be

extremely slow and tedious and you feel

very depressed or it can pass by but

that passes by without you even noticing

it and it's a wondrous experience you

know when I'm deep in my writing I'm not

aware of the time passing I'm so

involved I'm so immersed it's a deeply

deeply pleasurable experience of time it

is Sublime and yeah so I agree with you

I think your distinction is very

interesting you know I'm eagerly

awaiting your your next book but we

won't rush you well I I I'm I'm so

immersed in it that I could I could talk

for hours because I also have a chapter

in there about what I call the

dayon which is like that voice inside of

you that speaks to you and I'm writing a

whole chapter about how Sublime that is

when you connect to that voice so you

are spoton there is something very much

connected to Mastery in this book but

it's the next chapter that I'm writing

fantastic can't wait I can't wait I'd

like to shift slightly to a topic that

you've written extensively about which

is power um and not just power but also

seduction which you've written

extensively about and of course you've

written about finding one's purpose so

tell me if the framework that I've just

given myself Liberty to create is an

accurate one and if it's not I I'm

hoping that um it's not in perhaps some

interesting ways so to me you talk about

and we will talk about power as as a

resource it's it's something that um

it's there as a resource it could be

used or not used um and I think of

Seduction as one form of exchange

between an individual so there's a verb

associated with seduction power I'm

thinking of more as a noun in this

context you're the word guy um and then

you know purpose is uh is really about

finding like to what end or ends one is

going to um devote power seduction and

the other forces that allow human beings

to interact with each other in the world

um but power as a resource that can be

expressed in different ways and accessed

in different ways maybe we could just

explore that a little bit because you

know when we hear the word power I think

a lot of people kind of brace themselves

like here we go someone's going to try

and have power over me this is about

manipulation and so on and so forth but

I learned pretty early on that every

every career Endeavor there there are

power dynamics there's Mentor mentee

they teachers and their students and

both have power um in inter in romantic

relationships there's a power exchange

there are yeses and their NOS there are

maybe there are um uh covert and overt

contracts yeah I'll do this because I

want to right you'll do this because you

want to great sounds great overt

contract they're also covert contracts

well I don't feel safe doing that so

what I'll do is I'll take some something

on through from the interaction that

you're not aware of so that I can sort

of um ease my sense of danger and make

give myself the illusion of feeling safe

and all sorts of kind of complicated

human dynamics that have to do with us

having this forbrain thing that can do

all of that gymnastics so maybe we could

start very simply by just saying you

know how would you define power in terms

of its uh functional definition like in

in in interpersonal relations and then

why do you think

power is so essential to all

relationships that's really what I'd

like to get to why is it so essential

why couldn't it be something else well

the way I Define po is I try and take it

away from that kind of negative context

that most people have and that you that

you brought up and I bring it to

something very primitive and very Primal

the way the human being is wired the

feeling that we have no control over our

environment and in the earliest period

it was literally over our environment

and wild animals and nature and and the

climate Etc but now the sense that you

have no control over your career over

your children over your parents is

deeply deeply am miserating and it

compels us to act in certain ways either

attempts to find positive ways of power

or doing what you call covert ways of

getting power you know passive

aggressive traditionally passive

aggressive means so it's deeply wired in

US to want a degree of control over the

immediate environment and immediate

events we can never have complete

control and the idea of having complete

control is nonsense and it would

actually be very ugly because you want a

degree of Letting Go and letting

circumstances come to you etc

etc so the sense of you you you want to

feel like with other people and

relationships that you can influence

them that you can move them in a certain

direction either to get you to love you

and treat you better or either to stop

annoying irritating behaviors or either

to you know wake up and and find and and

and do productive activity if it's your

children Etc you want to have the

ability to influence people to move them

in a certain direction either in your

interest or in their interest right and

once you have that need and every single

human being ever who's ever lived has

that need and we often don't Rec

recognize it because we're embarrassed

by it we're embarrassed by our desire

for power for our need to control every

human being has it right and it's not

easy because human beings are

complicated they don't if you say do

this and you're talking to your son

he'll do the opposite or he'll do

something else you can't just force

people in a direction right by being

overt and telling them this is what you

need to do you create resentment you

create an enemy they may they may say

yes yes daddy yes husband I'll do what

you say but they're you they're they're

going to resist you deep down inside

right so people are tricky they wear

masks they pretend to say one thing and

they do another they have their egos and

you inadvertently wound their egos or

trip them in some way and they react in

a way that you don't expect and so power

is this kind of invisible realm that

envelops Society where people are

continually battling each other and

struggling in it but no one is like

talking about it no one's being overt

about it no one's saying this is exactly

what I'm trying to do and so when you

enter the social world in the career

world you're not expecting these battles

you don't know no one's taught you no

one's trained you your parents don't

train you nobody trains you and you make

mistakes and you realize how political

people are if you're a Sharky character

and there there's a certain percentage

of them you realize wow I can deceive

people I can manipulate them I can get

what I want I can pretend to love them

and they'll they'll fall for me and I

can do all this other stuff but for most

of us the 95% of us who aren't sharks

and I'm I'm including myself in that

category it's it's it's very very

disturbing to suddenly enter that world

and see all of that invisible power

games on that's no one's given you any

advice for helped you and so take it out

of the realm of it's just about trying

to dominate the world and manipulate and

exploit and and abuse

it's something inside of you you have

this need and your suppression of it

will only make you come out in passive

ways and you won't be able to control

certain things if you want to move

people if you want them to follow your

ideas if you want them to be more

aligned with your politics or your ideas

you have to be subtle you have to learn

psychology you have to learn certain

aspects of how to almost move people

without them realizing in in certain

directions which is like The Art of

Seduction and if you're not interested

in that if you're just going to tell

people what you think and what you're

going to do that means you're not

interested in Practical action you're

not interested in results you're just

interested in inventing your own

frustrations or your own anger so

learning the subtle little dynamics of

power is extremely essential because

we're a social animal it doesn't mean

that you're going to get dirty that

you're going to suddenly go out there

and manipulate the out of people most of

the 48 Laws of Power is about defense

but how to defend yourself from the

Sharks about there how to defend

yourself from making classic mistakes

like outshining the master like talking

too much like arguing with people

instead of demonstrating your ideas on

and on and on it's not an ugly thing it

actually makes you a better social

individual so that's how I I like to

frame it it's very interesting I I

think as a young guy growing up it was

so important to me um to know where I

fit in with my friend group um and I

didn't think of it so much as a

hierarchy um nor when I was in my

academic studies did I think of it as a

hierarchy even though it was clearly was

right um so much as it the goal was to

figure out where was my unique slot that

I could um do the most good for myself

and others right of finding my spot um I

don't want to say on a shelf CU that

gives an image of something vertical but

you know in the let's make it lateral a

lateral arrangement of different people

with different strengths different life

purposes trying to figure them out you

know where where should I be in order to

express that and also feel connected to

others and um and in order to do that I

did have to I realize now based on your

answer I did have to figure out um you

know who's trying to have power over

who's pretending that they don't want

power but is actually exerting power um

you know these sorts of things and

there's an incredible piece that comes

from knowing that one is in the correct

Place both profession interpersonally in

relation to oneself but also in the

context of one's peer peer group just

kind of yeah this is where I belong

because trying to gain power when one is

trying to move to a position that isn't

right for them or in a way that isn't

right for them just seems so

energetically costly yeah seems like a

waste of a life frankly right right you

know trying to gather resources simply

to to have them to give the illusion of

power but then being afraid of losing

them just sounds like a recipe for for

misery as you pointed out you know

whereas figuring out where am I most

powerful in the benevolent sense of the

word that that that seems like a good a

good Pursuit well it's connecting up to

to Mastery again and finding your life's

purpose you know I I I knew when I was

young that I couldn't exert physical

power

because I was a skinny little runt and I

was I wasn't bullied but people would

kind of pick on me etc etc so I veered

towards intellectual Pursuits where I

could have power and in the end you know

you might have been a jock and you might

have done well in high school but haha

Look at me now I'm not saying that it's

a beautiful thing that that's but that's

part of human nature the desire to

actually you know prove yourself and

find that Niche that you that you belong

to so you don't have that kind of hum

that sense of

inferiority which Alfred Adler the

psychologist describes very eloquently

so a lot of it is kind of compensating

when you're a child for things that are

your weaknesses and finding what you're

so good at that you do have that power

and people can't bully you right and you

you're you're like now a famous

neuroscientist whereas they're like who

knows what they're doing kind of thing

so power definitely is connected in some

way to that inner sense of what you were

meant to do and you feel it with the

with the ease and the connection that

comes from it right so I can honestly

say that my dislike of working for other

people and office politics and egos I

now have a of an existence where I don't

have to deal with any of that and I'm so

blessed and I wake up every morning and

I pray to God thank God I I found this

because it's it's the perfect lifestyle

for me yeah you're are can be accurately

Des described as an intellectual Beast

so it's um and which is like a

compliment right um we hear the word

beast and we think uh you know a

Ferocious Beast trying to harm others

but I'm happy being a beast yeah you

know so I think finding where we can be

a beast you know and and for some people

that's painting or or gardening or

whatever it might be um I think is again

ties back to the these issues of or this

quest of for

Mastery seduction is also a very loaded

word right it's even more more uglier

than power because seduction right

seduction kind of drips with uh the idea

that somebody is

tricking someone else into doing

something that they otherwise would not

want to do but seduction is both our

propensity to do it and to have it done

to us is hardwired into our nervous

system and has a lot to do with the

hypothalamus and a bunch of other areas

that I won't Bor us with the

nomenclature but um sedu

to me implies some sort of exchange I

suppose we could seduce ourselves

through denial or convincing ourselves

that of of something but more often than

not when we talk about seduction we're

talking about an interaction between two

or more people so um what are some of

the core principles of Seduction and and

if you care to play um Anthropologist a

bit um and a neuroscientist I I would

invite that why do you think we have

neural circuits in our brain that allow

us to seduce and be

seduced well um I don't know how if if

I'm if I'm being kind of an armchair

intellectual here but my my theory is

some of it has to go back to social um

events long in our prehistory which have

to do with

taboos and Society was initially kind of

organized by a series of taboos right

most notably the taboo on incest and

what happened is just not my theory it's

the theory of the malanowski malanowski

is I pronounce it um that the moment a

taboo enters the human brain like you're

not supposed to sleep with this woman

the desire arises inside of you to

actually sleep with that woman the the

the sense of no the sense that this is

prohibited stirs the desire stirs the

contrary impulses in humans and we can

be very um what's the word perverse

creatures right so if you've ever tried

to suppress a thought you realize that

it keeps coming up keeps coming up you

can't suppress it don't think of an

elephant Andrews whatever you do don't

think of an elephant you're thinking of

it because you can't help it right the

idea that you're not supposed to desire

of this person stirs that actual desire

so I believe the sense of something

being taboo and transgressive is the

ultimate kind of origin of our desire

for seduction but seduction involves

vulnerability it involves somebody gets

inside somebody gets under our skin

right and to do that we have to let them

in so the person being seduced is in

some ways to a degree complicit because

if you just put up a wall and you said

no I I'm not going to be seduced nothing

will happen but you have a vulnerability

you're letting that person into your

psyche Into Your Inner Space the

Paradigm for that is Early Childhood so

Freud talks a lot about this so I don't

know if people still believe in Freud

anymore I certainly do okay absolutely a

genius of both Psychology and Physiology

wrong about a lot of things did a lot of

things he shouldn't have done I let's

acknowledge that I think everyone would

agree that sleeping with your patients

and being a cocaine addict bad ideas but

at the same time he had an absolute like

near Supernatural levels of insight and

Brilliance into human nature he sleep

with his patience I believe he did um

but if I just if I just threw that on

him without him doing it then you know

uh forgive me certainly had emotional

attachments to his patients that he

shouldn't have had I don't know if he

slept with them he very well might have

but his idea was that the child is

seduced by the parent you're in

extremely vulnerable position right your

life depends on them and they're

seducing you with their energy you're

letting them in right and that kind of

creates a pattern for the rest of your

life and so for instance the feeling of

being carried by your father and just

being taken around physically is a form

of Seduction because you don't know what

he's going to do to you you're very

excited you want that surprise right and

to me it's related to the seduction of a

story stories are very seducing to us we

don't know where they're taking us we

don't know what the next chapter is what

going to happen to this character or not

the surprise lowers our resistance and

opens our mind up to what's going to

happen next is a form of Seduction fairy

tales the stories you were reading as a

child your interactions with your

parents they're deeply deeply ingrained

in you you cannot be seduced unless you

are vulnerable right and so I like to

switch it around and get out of the

negative connotations being vulnerable

is actually a positive trait I think a

lot of people now in the world today

because things are so harsh and invasive

that people have become too

invulnerable they don't want to let

anything in right and this now infects

their relationships with other people

they don't want to be influenced they

they want to be strong inside of

themselves they're afraid of giving in

to the other person of surrendering to

their influence but it's actually a

delightful feeling to surrender to the

power of another person and then reverse

that charge and have them surrender to

your power so when I'm reading a writer

and sometimes uh they completely seduce

me like friederick nich is one of my

favorite writers I let go of everything

I let him enter my brain and I'm

completely seduced I let him lead me

along but then I encounter writers that

I don't like at all I I'll mention one

you know it's probably not a good thing

but step Pinker I don't like St St

Pinker I find him really annoying okay

um but I force myself to try and find a

way to be seduced by him to let him into

my brain to see where he's coming from

to open myself to the possibility that

he could be correct so vulnerability

letting people into your mental space is

a form of intelligence it's a it's kind

of an emotional and an intellectual

intelligence and forgive me for

interrupting but I think it also implies

a level of confidence because empathy or

allowing oneself to be vulnerable to the

point where you're seduced by something

um by

definition if you're choosing to do it

uh implies that you also have the

confidence that you can get back to

yourself afterward right that you're not

going to get lost in the circumstances

you're not going to be hijacked to the

point of no return right or in some way

that's detrimental to you so it it's um

it I'm sound really nerdy here it's it's

cinear with with confidence in many ways

sure like take my mind

and take it where you will because I

know I can come back at any time right

right and the same thing in a physical s

in a romantic sense right you're opening

yourself up to the charm to the energy

of the other person but if they start

displaying dark energy and you see that

they're abusive or something is wrong

you have the ability to retreat ah well

there it gets tricky because very tricky

well because the attachment systems

which are also rooted in childhood um

often times can overwhelm one's ability

to recover oneself like I mean so I mean

how many if I had a dollar for every

time someone in that I knew in my life

saying like you know I know they're bad

for me but I just can't like we just

can't seem to disengage like that you

hear about that all the time I mean you

see court cases about this that are

public and you know you just go why

didn't they just walk away from one

another well because once those

attachment systems are locked in it

almost becomes in a and here

metaphorically speaking like a parent

child relationship like you can't

suddenly decide your parents weren't

your parents simply because you know

better now right you are forever

stricken with the reality that they were

and they had an influence and I think

that that attachment system is um is a

is a force that tugs pretty hard yeah

and um a lot of women have written to me

since the Art of Seduction sort of

saying that their boyfriend or husband

was applying some of these tactics on

them and it was very painful and they

were kind of a little bit angry at me

for for it but then they kind of

realized that they it wasn't they didn't

learn it really from my book it was

already kind of wired in them but that

reading about these tactics and these

strategies actually helped them to

recognize what their husband or

boyfriend was doing to them the

manipulation and the games that were

being played do men write to you and

talk about the seductive adornments that

women have used to to um bring them into

relationship as well or are you

typically hearing from women I mostly

hear from women complaining about men

and and and how they've abused them and

how they used

some of these some of the strategies I I

don't deny have a slightly nefarious

Edge to them because I didn't want to

write a book about Seduction That

doesn't have that taboo element because

I say seduction involves the taboo and I

didn't want to I didn't want to censor

myself but female to male seduction

clearly also exists less of I

acknowledge that it's um less often is

it physically abusive um but right I

mean from an early age both boys and

girls men and women are coached by

Society on the sorts of uh seductive

tactics and and adornments right I mean

everything from makeup perfume

hairstyles cars watches jewelry um

expression power displays of any kind um

I mean that stuff the world's filled

with that stuff yeah but men are

generally kind of happy when a woman

seduces them right they're unless

they're after their money or something

like that which happens but generally

the sense you know I talk about this in

in the first chapter about which I could

say is the quintessential archetype of

the female seductress the the kind of

half human half bird creature on a rock

singing so beautifully that you have to

jump in the water and then they kill you

and so the idea is that men want to let

go because men have to be so in control

so powerful they have to project this

image they have a secret desire to let

go and be almost dominated by a very

powerful woman a lot of men have that

and I talk about some of the most

powerful men in in history Julius Caesar

Mark Anthony um Joe dagio who all these

men very masculine men who've fallen for

very feminine siren likee women and been

completely dominated by them and they

actually kind of enjoy the process

because it's like a sense of I can let

go I can enter this totally s sensual

physical world and it it's extremely

pleasing it's like another realm outside

of my kind of cold mascul

world you know so I don't really get men

complaining too much about women who've

seduced them honestly it's usually the

other way

around I'd like to take a quick break

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docomo I've heard before um and I

promise this is not an original idea

that I'm pretending to have heard

elsewhere the my friend asked me to ask

sort of question that in all sexual

exchanges there's a power exchange

definitely um maybe you could elaborate

on that um because as you were

describing some of the seductive power

dynamics that ex IST a phrase that I've

heard before uh came to mind um that at

first made me chuckle but then made me

think um quite deeply about this issue

of the relationship between sexual and

power dynamics which is this notion of

topping from the bottom you know if one

is giving someone else the impression

that they are more powerful by virtue of

the word giving they actually hold some

power right power is can be given or

taken but um often times uh seductive

exchanges and sexual exch exchanges and

romantic exchanges in particular are

about both people

uh buying into a ill a temporary

illusion let's pretend that you're in

charge when actually I'm in charge okay

but I know that you think that you're in

charge okay let's just pretend none of

that exists and just do X right and I

think this is another example of covert

contracts and it's one that actually can

potentially create a lot of problems

post Hawk right um but I think the

relationship between sex romance and

power is an important area to explore in

the context of this well I wrote The Art

of Seduction with the idea that it was

an art invented by women it was invented

by women who had no power essentially

socially politically in any sense of the

word in in in domestically

right and but the one power that they

could that they could wield over a man

was through sex

some physical attraction and so they

develop this art of kind of luring a man

into their world through various

theatrical effects Cleopatra being kind

of the archetype of this and then luring

the the powerful man into this world he

has the illusion that he's the one

pursuing her but in fact she is the one

controlling the dynamic so often times

the person who appears to be the weaker

one in the relationship who's not doing

the pursuing is actually inviting the

pursuing is actually leading the other

person on so there's a lot of kind of

appearance games going on and you can

never really figure out who exactly is

in control of the dynamic because one

person is

like allowing the other person to lead

them on but the fact that you're

allowing them is a degree of power is a

degree of control right so it's very

hard to figure out and sex and power and

romantic relationships are very much

intertwined in US physically emotionally

neurologically you can't avoid it right

and so I think it's kind of dishonest to

say that that none of that exists that

it's like that there's some egalitarian

Paradise out of there when it it's

really not wired in us for that kind of

relationship there's a recent scientific

publication SL factoid that I want to

share with you in this context because

I'd like your thoughts on it uh David

Anderson who's a phenomenal

neurobiologist he's been a guest on this

podcast before he's a professor at

Caltech studies um basically the

functions of the hypothalamus so okay

things like uh aggression mating and and

things of that sort um and does it so it

in with great detail he's a virtuoso of

the hypothalamus and he published a

paper two years ago showing that indeed

there are neural circuits in the brain

of animals and presumably in humans as

well that control sexual mounting

Behavior but that there is actually a

separate circuit for

purely nonsexual mounting and physical

power over that's expressed in animals

and anyone that's ever owned a dog and

gone to the dog park will see same-sex

mounting between dogs or mounting

between dogs that has apparently um no

sexual end point yeah and in exploring

this lit and some talking to David about

it it's very clear that there are neural

circuits um that have everything to do

with essentially one animal of a species

getting on top of the other animal

usually from behind often times

scruffing or biting the back of the neck

and saying I control you it's a it's

often done in a playful context

especially between animals not always

aggressive but there's a certain element

of aggressive to it but essentially says

I decide whether or not you are mobile

or not for this moment and that it and

this is very important I want to

emphasize this this is a circuit that is

entirely separate from all of the

reflexes associated with sexual behavior

in males and females I find this to be

fascinating um and because we hear about

power over right and we hear about power

and we think about physical power over

but the idea that something as primitive

as mounting just like something as

primitive as biting or as

striking has its own unique set of

circuits in the brain I think

substantiates every everything that you

put in uh in your books about power and

maybe even seduction as well so as I

just kind of toss that out there for

consideration I I I wonder um if you

have any Reflections on it if not um

feel free to just say I don't but of

course but to me this was a really

important Discovery because I think

everyone looks at mounting behavior and

says oh that has to be sexual and

sometimes it's oh I see what you mean

but but it's not that there's a there

seem to be a host of neural circuits in

the brain that are are really about

defining who's on top literally that has

nothing to do with

sex yeah I'm sure that's true I've never

I've never I've never um read anything

about that but I can say that um I wrote

a chapter in in my new book about love

and that's a different thing than than

seduction and I was trying to come up

with an idea of love that does have an

element of equality that doesn't have

this power dynamic going on in it I love

that and um you know kind of like the

antithesis of my Art of Seduction where

I'm almost contradicting myself and I

was going into the into the biology of

it and even into the physics of it so

there is a famous uh French biologist

whose Name Escapes me I'm sorry I can't

remember from the 20s and 30s um and he

was studying

parium and he found he was studying them

you know they they're in these ponds Etc

and he said that there was these moments

where these single celled organisms were

suddenly coupling they were all joining

together just one to one and they were

absorbing the membrane of one inside the

other and then they would like go and

then once one couple did that all the

parium started joining up together then

they would sink to the bottom of the

pond and parium don't reproduce through

sex they reproduce through dividing

themselves right self

reproduction and so he was saying that

the desire to couple to to to connect to

someone so deeply where you absorb one

is absorbed in the other is biologically

wired into US goes back millions and

millions and millions of years and it's

a desire essentially a biological desire

for love right and it's an energy that

permeates all all the it's it's not just

about power and hierarchy

and that he was showing other creatures

that had something similar going on and

you know in physics we talk about

entanglement and we also talk about um

you know matter if matter isn't absor

isn't um opposed by a lot of kinetic

energy it joins together I mean

particles join together to form matter

etc etc so there's something in the

universe that's trying to connect things

to each other so there's this this kind

of energy that exists in the world where

we have a deep need to connect to

somebody with outside of those power

dynamics right where there's a degree of

equality where we're drawn to each other

and we let go of the ego games we let go

of the playing we kind of surmount our

own physiology our own

hypothalamus and we engage in this I

call it love Sublime and it involves the

physical part the sexual part is the

trigger for it because when you have sex

with someone your body is suddenly

permeable to their energy in a way that

you cannot control it releases all kinds

of of chemicals in the brain that are

very powerful and oftentimes that sense

is too powerful and you react and you're

afraid of it and you pull back but if

you don't react and you go further then

the mind also becomes permeable to the

other person and their energy and their

desire and so then

it kind of creates a spiraling effect

where the physical and the mental

connection reaches this state that I

call love Sublime now it's an ideal it

doesn't really exist that much out there

in the world today but there are stories

in history that illustrate it and I

believe that is a biological necessity

for us to feel a deep deep sense of

connection we normally ascribe that to

religion to God Etc but I maintain the

essence of love the model for for love

is between two human beings straight or

homosexual doesn't matter and that

feeling of surmounting our own neurology

our own system and and entering this

zone is deeply deeply satisfying we all

want it and it has to involve letting go

of the power dynamics letting and

everything being equal it's not that the

other person is exactly like you you

recognize their difference but but as

far as being worthy of attention being

worthy and

respected you leave all that other stuff

outside so there is a Zone that's

possible that's outside this power denam

that we're talking about I'm excited

that you're writing about this uh so

this is for your next book yeah I'm very

excited I couldn't help but think of

some of the parallels between what you

describe and what we're observing

nowadays in the landscape of politics

and social dynamics where clearly um

they is no setting aside of egos people

feel both sides feel attacked everyone

in between feels confused like why do I

have to pick aide um and there seems to

be no hint of a future where people are

setting down their swords it which means

if we were to go with your earlier

definition which I like a lot that um

nobody feels safe enough to be

vulnerable enough to um to allow the

union of of people to occur which is

just a way a way of rewarding you know a

bunch of other things um and not nearly

as eloquently as as you described it but

if setting aside of power dynamics and

making oneself vulnerable is is the key

to accessing love in the Romantic

context surely but also in the um

societal context I mean what are the

channels for that I mean I suppose there

is the argument not mine that everyone

should just take a boatload of

psychedelics and see the

interconnectedness of things but that

seems like an realistic route I I just

don't see that being you know um you

know 12th grade graduation um curriculum

um nor do I think it would be healthy I

to be clear I think that you we'd end up

with a lot of expression of of problems

there um but short of a magic substance

that could increase feelings of uh

connectedness among everyone

simultaneously um how are you going to

save Humanity Robert well um because I'm

I'm concerned about young people in

particular with hookup culture with

pornography etc etc it's kind of

rewiring the human brain and we're

losing what I was just describing and I

see aot particularly a lot of young

people and I don't blame them because

they've grown up in a world that's very

chaotic and very hostile could could I

say I think it's um and not to be

nitpicky here but I I love what you just

said I think in my mind it's hi things

like that are hijacking the hard wirring

of the brain okay um and I'm just I'm

again forgive me my the audience is

probably going can't really rewire the

brain like that so well I think we can

expand and rewire Upon Our hard wiring

but so much of what you you talk about

in your books is about finding one's

Essence but then also what I love about

your books so much among many other

things is that it's about that dance

between the hard wiring and and the

possible of through effort so anyway

forgive me for for being it's very

accurate so yeah what how do you get us

out of this well you're putting a big

burden on me I am but I think you're up

to it you know um well I try to do it in

this chapter because I wanted to seduce

the reader into the idea that this is

something extremely pleasurable and

extremely healthy and the feeling of

being vulnerable is a very positive

attribute that will infect not just your

romantic relationships but will infect

you mentally so creative people are

extremely vulnerable they're extremely

vulnerable to ideas they're extremely

vulnerable to the environment and

closing yourself off into your own ego

into yourself so the chapter is called

Escape the Prison of the egoo and you're

you're kind of trapped inside of

yourself and your own thoughts and your

own desires and it's like a prison it's

enclosing you and you want to escape

somehow and you escape through drugs you

escape through porn but it doesn't lead

to actually escaping you want to be able

to let go of the self and get out of

this this prison that you're in right

and so it's a desire that that we all

have and so I wanted to frame it as this

incredibly positive Dynamic that you can

engage in and the ability to be

vulnerable to other people to open

yourself up and to say that yeah they

might hurt me but I'm strong enough to

take it and if they hurt me I'll learn

from it and I'll rebound and I know

that's a bit naive on my part but I want

you to at least have that feeling

because a lot of young people write to

me and they say I I can't fall in love

anymore I can't I don't like that

feeling I it makes the loss of control

is too much you know and and a lot of

that their behavior patterns are in

creating this sense of control which you

can have when you're locked inside of

yourself uh hence over indulgence in

pornography yeah and masturbation

Etc as a way to avoid the you know the

understandable fear about inter

relational Dynamics yeah yeah so you

know when you're young you're you're

idealistic at least a lot of young

people are and you have these dreams and

these hopes and to let go of this

possibility which is deeply pleasurable

and deeply therapeutic to the human

animal as a social animal it's like the

highest form of interaction that we can

have so my strategy in that chapter was

to paint such a wonderful portrayal of

the pleasures that are awaiting You by

letting go of your defenses of letting

go of all of your natural resistance

factors and opening yourself up to other

people is is a key to not just a

romantic relationship but to Career

Success to mental energy to creativity

to being open in general right and

so I don't think I could have a a wi you

know a huge impact but we'll see when

the when the book comes out but I'm

advocating that sense of open opening

yourself up to the universe to the

cosmos itself as an energy that

permeates the world and so that you

don't want to the feeling of being

closed inside of your ego inside of your

yourself I want to make it so you feel

the pain of that because you don't

really feel the pain of it you feel like

it's comfortable for you but I want to

make it clearity that it's not

comfortable it's deeply deeply painful

and it's disconnecting you from some of

the best experiences you can have in

life so I have that strategy the only

other hope I have is in the human Spirit

itself so a lot of this is being caused

by social media I believe right um and

uh and the instant and the the kind of

immediate gratification we can get in so

many ways and my hope is that young

people get fed up and get dis disgusted

with all this disconnection an

alienation in their life and that they

hunger from actually something more

communal more interactive more real as

opposed to Virtual and so that the human

Spirit can't be completely squashed by

technology Etc so I have that hope

because we've gone through these Cycles

before in history where people have

become very invulnerable and very locked

and closed and suddenly there's an

explosion a creative explosion like in

the 1960s like in the 1920s like in 18th

century Europe with the Casanova and the

where seduction reached its kind of apy

Etc so it has kind of swung back and

forth between these moments where humans

get incredibly closed and bitter and

partisan and everything's conflict and

everyone's divisive Etc and suddenly

goes in the opposite

direction I I have hope in that

possibility and I structured my chapter

to perhaps sweep that a little bit along

that tie and see if I can have any

effect well I think what you just

described in conversations like it and

that stem from it are likely to have a

tremendous effect I think it's exactly

what's needed now and um certainly I'll

be uh to amplify that message I I agree

with everything you said and not just

because you're sitting here as a guest

uh on this podcast but because um it's

clear to me that while power dynamics

and seduction are um wired into our

human relations since the beginning of

time that we have reached a a very

challenging period in our history um

it's somewhat of a relief to me to know

that it's happened before but in a very

different context uh we hear a lot about

The Swinging back and forth of the

pendulum uh someone in fact uh Peter

Atia online Physician's brother actually

said I um so we'll credit him he said no

it's not a it's not a pendulum that

swings back and forth unfortunately now

it's become a wrecking ball so it's

swinging back and forth and doing damage

as it as it reaches its um you know it's

extremes and I think that um I also look

forward to a time where people

um acknowledge the the injustices around

them and and that have been done to them

and others and um but somehow are able

to transcend that and the word that I'd

like to pick up on there is the word

justice um it was pointed out to me uh

by someone I respect very much that you

know having a sense of justice is a is a

wonderful and important thing and as

humans it's important to how we

structure Society but I do think that

that a lot of the negative things that

we see out there nowadays are have

something to do with the availability of

uh ready availability of pornography

high density calorie food Etc a bunch of

things like that but that one of the

issues with social media because it does

have its positive aspects but one of the

negative issues in my mind is that it's

a steady flow of um examples of

Injustice so all day long you're just

seeing things like that that piss you

off and that piss other people off and

for different reasons but but what was

pointed out to me is that one of the key

things about a sense of Injustice is to

be able to determine whether or not

there's anything that you should do

about it and I think that everyone now

feels a bit hijacked by all the

injustices we see because we feel like

well we're supposed to do something

about it but it may be that while we

can't let every Injustice pass that

being bombarded all day long with things

that upset us is hijacking our

creativity it's distracting us from our

deeper purpose it's preventing a sense

of vulnerability that would lead to a

sense of deep love and on and on so I

don't think it's just about the The Lure

the tantalizing lures of of sex food and

um and looking at you know bodies and

hearing voices on social media I think

there is some validity to that but that

it's also that you know there's just

ample opportunity to go down the

gravitational pole forces of Injustice

like H that's so frustrating why are

they doing that I mean I catch myself

doing that talking to co-workers when I

walk in about did you see this thing

this is crazy what's going on with it

they're crazy when you know as opposed

to thinking about anything else in that

moment and I try and yank myself out of

that but I I think that um you're not

going to do it alone but I think you

will play a major role in saving us from

this because people I do I think because

people just need to see themselves

through a different lens and realize

this is distracting me from who I'm

supposed to be well a lot of what what

modern life should involve is the

ability to ignore certain things so for

instance since I don't know if you know

that app next door oh right I used to

have it but then I'd see all the the

packages being stolen off my neighbor's

porches in Oakland and then I started

enjoying living in Oakland less and I

love the city of Oakland it's got its

problems it definely has its problems

but as an East Bay kid you know and went

to school out there and you know like I

have deep love for the East Bay and it

it's always had those problems but when

you see stuff being stolen on your phone

in the middle of the night when you wake

up it creates a sense that like they're

out to get my stuff it's terrible right

and so uh I have it in my spam filter

but I look at it and and every headline

is people stealing somebody broke into

somebody's house this P dog bit me this

this rapid dog going around there's this

homeless person that's yelling and

attacking people on and on and on I feel

like I'm living in this neighborhood

it's like Beirut or something in the

1980s I can't even walk out my door I

just got I don't look at next door

anymore I just ignore it I don't open it

ever because I know that that they're

designed algorithmically to put that in

front of you every single time so that

you click on it because that's we

respond to that kind of stuff naturally

we can't help it so you have to be able

to shut that stuff up and look at what

you can actually control in your life so

I have this visceral dislike of what's

going on in Ukraine because I was in

Ukraine recently and I feel I've

identified very strongly with their

struggle right and it just I can't that

outrage feeling it just every time I

read an article about it it just drives

me crazy so the only thing is I stop

reading as much as I can I read things

that are kind of rational and

intelligent and I send the money and I

you know I donate as much as I can and I

help them practically but I don't allow

myself to get that kind of outraged

feeling all of the time so somebody has

to write a book somebody has to instruct

us and what to ignore and what to

actually pay attention to so there are

things that you can control

injustices that are out there that you

could control by voting by certain by

amassing a movement by you know dealing

with climate change not by trying to

recycle every little thing in your house

but actually doing something really much

more macro in the world you know joining

a cause there are things you can do and

that's positive and that's a way of

channeling that kind of dark energy in

you for a positive purpose but it's

totally disruptive and it totally

distracts you and weakens you and drains

you of energy to fall into those rabbit

holes and let them and let yourself fall

into them so you have to learn the art

of what to ignore and what not to pay

attention to and understand that you're

wired to see those kind of red alert

buttons on Facebook or on next door

wherever they are and it it's just it's

it's it's negative it's like a candy

rush and you have to avoid it and it's

taking us away from our purpose which we

each have I mean I think to me that's

the the most um delerious aspect unless

unless your purpose is to organize and

be an activist people ask me I wrote a

lot about in my human nature book about

the shadow side of human nature right

and we all have it we all have a dark

side we all have hidden aggression we

all have feelings of Envy we all have

feelings of grandiosity we all have

aggressive impulses how do you deal with

it and I say the way to deal is to

channel it into something positive and

pro-social and that could be putting it

in your artwork venting that anger and

that outrage and something that people

kind of can identify with or it can be

an organizing something that could be

your purpose in life and actually doing

something positive so that's the only

way that you could actually use that

energy for some kind of actual life's

task or purpose you've been discussing

ing lately a bit on some of your

channels about masculine and feminine um

let's say roles um and crisis of the

masculine feminine dance as well as the

crisis of masculinity per se the crisis

of femininity per se um do you care to

expand on that a bit I think um we could

probably take three four hours to

explore all this in full um but I was

struck by some of the things that you

said um because I agree completely that

um just as we are not given a road map

When we arrive in the world as to how to

find our purpose I think there's also a

very conflicted road map that's thrown

in front of us and indeed conflicting

multiple road maps about what it means

to be masculine or feminine or some

combination of both which of course

everybody is some combination of both

just to varying degrees well um yeah so

men have a feminine side to them which

if you try to repress it will come out

in other ways and women have a masculine

side to them I think Yung describe this

very well with the anima and the Animus

which I think is is extremely

real um it's very very confusing times

for both men and for women right now we

don't know the roles that there there're

everything is just so fluid and it's

very very difficult particularly if

you're young so young women are getting

this idea that everything should be

equal and that women should have and of

course it's right should have be paid

the same and should have the same career

opportunities there should be no

Prejudice or harassment or anything but

at the same time on social media it's

all about looking perfect and looks are

are incredibly important and if you're

not hot you're in terrible trouble and a

lot of young girls are extremely

confused by this they're getting mixed

signals right and boys are even in

perhaps even worse circumstances where

being masculine is seen as something

negative so we don't have any ideals out

there anymore of what what

constitutes a good positive form of

femininity and a good positive form of

masculinity in fact we even think that

there shouldn't be anything like that

there's no such thing as being masculine

or feminine whatever it's very very

confusing and so you know I I think of

of of masculine traits that I think are

very positive and that should be out

there to kind of counteract the sort of

Andrew Tate seduction that a lot of

young men are falling for and it's a

kind of an inner strength where you're

sort of in control of your emotions

you're not invulnerable etc etc but um

you can take

criticism you can take PE you you know

you can have moments of failure and

you'll bounce back but you have a kind

of res inner resilience and a kind of

inner strength a kind of a quiet calm

that I think used to be exemplified in

movie icons like a Gary Cooper type

thing right and that kind of sense of

inner calmness where you're not

hysterical you're not getting upset

about everything that happens where you

have a kind of an inner strength and a

confidence and you can withstand kind of

what Ryan holiday talks about a lot

about with stoicism you can withstand

all of the hardships in life but you

have that Citadel Within you is a very

very powerful form of masculinity as

opposed to it's all about sleeping with

a lot of women having really fast cars

you know being abusive and being a bully

etc etc these are signs of weakness of

insecurity and to be masculine should be

a sense of security and inner confidence

and Inner Strength right and that's what

we should venerate in our culture and we

should have icons like that okay um it

doesn't mean that that there's no role

for men who are not masculine or have

more of the feminine virtues that's also

there's definitely a role for that and

you know we see a lot of that in all

sorts of Arenas of life and then there

should be a positive model for women you

know where instead of their appearances

being judged by their appearances and

having to conform to ideals of what's

hot or not it's about being incredibly

powerful and comp ident and and have

expertise and being really successful in

your career and and as opposed to being

continually judged by your appearances

which is very damaging

so these are terrible times I mean I I

feel fortunate that I grew up in a time

where there were these kind of models

for me to go by and I think of my father

who who was a very quiet man and he was

he was just a middle class s salesman is

basically what he was he just sold for

all his whole life he sold chemical

supplies for one company um but he was

very dignified he treated people well he

was very calm and very quiet but he also

was very empathetic that was my role

model for what I think is a good

masculine energy and I think a lot of

people just don't have that and they're

very lost and so I don't know what the

answer is to that I can't really produce

that out of thin air but I wish I could

well certainly nowadays there are many

more um let's say examples and options

of masculine and feminine qualities out

there for observation because of social

media and because of the internet uh and

as you point out before a key feature to

becoming a functional human being

especially nowadays is learning what to

ignore I mean there's an interesting

idea in the circles around nutrition and

health that you know never before in

human history have human beings been

able to access such a wide variety of

foods that are differ from what their

ancestors ate and I don't even mean

ancient ancestors I mean if you grew up

in the Bay Area as I did in the 1970s

and 80s there were few ethnic

restaurants but we ate the same you know

15 or 20 Foods over and over again right

and then eventually that exploded into

dozens of options and more and fusion

foods and all sorts of things and so

there is this idea in the nutrition

communities that we are not hardwired to

um think about and discern so many

different food options that you know

that's um and to taste so many distinct

flavors whereas before people one

portion of the planet or country ate

generally one way in a given season if

there's seasonality etc etc in a similar

vein um we are now and children too are

now um overwhelmed with a number of

different options of how to express

oneself both masculinity and femininity

but generally speaking and so the

question is then how does one choose

right how does one decide what's what's

functional what works what's best what's

me right everyone asking themselves who

am I right I think all teenagers I find

this fascinating ask themselves who am I

adults don't tend to ask themselves that

question but who am I I still ask myself

question okay well that's good maybe I

should ask myself that more often but um

I think

that we clearly have gone over a cliff

with this stuff I don't think we're

still at the point where we're kind of

veering towards the edge of of confusion

I think young people are really confused

because the moment one assumes uh one

clear and let's say balanced Mas set of

masculine feminine attributes or maybe

ve a bit more masculine or a bit more

feminine it's like um there are a

million examples telling you that that's

wrong I know and then sometimes has the

tendency to Anchor to well no no I'm

right because this is this is who I am

and then all of a sudden you're you're

in a larger battle so uh you know Gary

Cooper's great love his movies um but

we're like we now have a million

variations on Gary Cooper um that don't

look anything like the Gary Cooper you

and I are talking about and a lot of

people won't even know who we're talking

about but I know

they I'm a dinosaur but perhaps it

illustrates the point no not that you're

a dinosaur but that um there is no

single or even um set of masculine or

feminine ideals so picking Role Models

is something that I really truly

internalized from your book Mastery yeah

you know I there were a lot of lonely

years for me and I won't get into the

stories of just wondering like my what

am I going to do you know I'm 13 my home

was completely broken no semblance of

the reality it was before you know who

are the the males in my life I'm going

to orient to and fortunately for me I

assigned mentors to me whether or not

they knew it or not that really helped

me along and I changed them up as you

recommend there wasn't one um I

understood there was a breaking up

process an integration process combined

ining and threading together different

things I think I truly believe that

that's what's required that um it

doesn't have to be 100% Gary Cooper it

can be 10% Robert Green 10% someone else

you know 5% this and creating a pie

chart of sorts of you know who one

wishes to be in a given context but that

takes work it takes a bit of work and

discernment but gosh that's powerful um

and really credit goes to you because I

you know you were a mentor of mine you

didn't even realize it in the way that

you forge and organize information and

there were others and but Mastery is

where I learned to do that and this is

not a podcast it's a a sales pitch for

Mastery but gosh it really taught me

okay I have a graduate adviser she was

wonderful and Brilliant but she didn't

know how to explain a lot of things to

me so I'd find someone else for that

right and someone else for the other

thing and someone else for the other

thing and together create a patchwork of

of really excellent mentors that made a

lot of sense to me yeah yeah so I I

think there's a a role for that process

that you spell out in Mastery in the

larger context of like could have become

as a person and that includes masculine

and feminine ideals yeah and and it's an

ongoing process throughout your life so

who you glommed on to when you were 14

or 15 will change when you're 19 I had a

series of people like you're talking

about my high school English teacher who

had an enormous impact on me who taught

me basically how to write I internalized

his voice when went to Berkeley I had a

professor there who became my kind of

surrogate father at Berkeley who I

deeply admired for his level of

scholarship so he became kind of an

intellectual role model later in life

when I finally wrote my first book I met

a man steers who was a book packager who

understood the business Etc he kind of

saved me he was sort of my mentor for

the next phase in my life so on and on

and on I found people but they have

positive qualities qualities they admire

they're not perfect everyone is

flawed and so at some point maybe you

see too many of the flaws you go on I

need somebody new in my life but there's

nothing wrong with that it's not like

you're you're you're violating any codes

or hurting them you move on to somebody