Rick Rubin: Protocols to Access Creative Energy and Process

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

[Music]

life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine my guest today is Rick Rubin

Rick Rubin is a world-renowned music

producer having worked with an enormous

number of incredible artists producing

for instance Red Hot Chili Peppers

Beasty Boys Jay-Z John cash Adele Lady

Gaga Tom Petty and of course Slayer this

last year Rick also authored his first

book which is a truly incredible

exploration into the creative process

his book is entitled the creative act a

way of being Rick has appeared once

before on the huberman Lab podcast and

during that appearance he offered to

answer listeners and viewers questions

those questions were put in the comment

section on YouTube and we received

thousands of them so today Rick answers

your questions about the creative

process I also took note of the feedback

that when Rick previously appeared on

the hubman Lab podcast that perhaps I

spoke a bit more than the audience would

have preferred so today I refrain from

speaking too much and try and give as

much airtime as possible to Rick in

order to directly answer your questions

you'll notice that today's discussion

gets really into the Practical aspects

of the creative process the most

frequent questions that I receive for

Rick were ones in which people really

want to understand what his specific

process is each and every day as well as

when he's producing music or other forms

of Art and of course people want to know

what they should do specifically from

the time they wake up until the time

they go to sleep even whether or not

they should take note of their dreams

Etc we get into all of that so today's

discussion is very different from the

one I held with Rick previously and at

least to my knowledge from any of the

other interviews or discussions that

Rick has had publicly

before we begin I'd like to emphasize

that this podcast is separate from my

teaching and research roles at Stanford

it is however part of my desire and

effort to bring zero cost to Consumer

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that's waking up.com huberman to try a

free 30-day trial and now for my

discussion about protocols for

creativity with Rick Rubin Rick Rubin

welcome back

thank you sir happy to be here we're

going to answer or rather you are going

to answer the questions of the listeners

of our previous podcast

episode before we do that however when

we were out in the lobby you mentioned

that you have a breathing exercise a

coherence breathing exercise that you

thought might be useful for us to do now

and perhaps for some of the listeners to

join in yeah let's do it and then if you

want to talk about it after we can

sounds good the reason I started Ed

doing this is I have relatively low

heart rate variability and you want to

have a Higher One um so I looked at all

the things that can raise your heart

rate variability and I started doing

this breathing technique specifically

for heart rate variability then it went

up awesome so it's great tested great

let's do it together here play it'll say

take a deep breath and then when you'll

hear the sound of

a if you follow me for the first inhale

and exhale you'll know what sound means

what and you do this eyes closed CL

typically I do it eyes closed okay we'll

Close Our Eyes thank

[Applause]

[Music]

you

[Music]

[Music]

that was five

minutes I like that feels nice doesn't

it yeah I notice

I don't spontaneously breathe at that

CAD I breathed quite a bit faster mhm so

especially on the exhale mhm so once I

got into a rhythm of it yeah the mind

just goes pseudo random for me what

about for you does your mind tend to go

one place I do now I

count um so the reason I knew it was 5

minutes is because it's six breaths per

minute and I counted five 1 1 1 2 1 3 3

1 4 1 5 1 6 2 1 so I was occupied with a

task how often do you do that at least

once and sometimes twice a day I aim for

10 minutes a day but if I get to 20

minutes a day it it's uh noticeable in

my heart rate variability results do you

do the coherence breathing at a

particular times of day or just whenever

it occurs to you uh I think it depends

on where I am and what else is going on

in my life so it it there was I had a

window of a very specific thing that I

was doing I would do coherent breathing

and I would do squats just air squats

and um in one location where I didn't

have any other equipment and uh and then

I found a way

like where I was doing treading water

which you got to experience with me I

would tread water and then after

Treading Water I would get out of the

pool sit in the Sun and do the coherent

breathing great yeah we should probably

mention what uh the treading water was

about because people will wonder um very

briefly I went and visited Rick overseas

this summer and we spent a fair amount

of the

daytime um treading water while

listening to podcasts from a speaker on

the side of the pool and it was awesome

um time together as friends is awesome

time in the sun is

awesome learning from podcasts and

listening and being entertained by

podcast is awesome and then treading

water is awesome you're much better at

treading water than I am I was fatiguing

it's just as as I said when we were

doing it it's it's um it's like doing

stairs if you practice doing stairs it

gets easier to do stairs but nobody's

good at doing you know marathon runners

can't run up the stairs it's a you know

it's a particular thing and treading

water if you just do it in even in the

little bit of time that we were doing it

every day by the end of your stay

it was easier for you than when you

started definitely yeah you acclimate

quickly yeah I was able to adapt I was

impressed at your endurance and Treading

Water early on by the way I've continued

the Treading Water practice because I'm

fortunate to have a pool in my new place

yeah um I listen to your podcast truly

wow tetr grammaton love it uh love love

love it uh I listen to a few other

podcasts and I've started listening to

more episodes of the podcast that you

introduced me to which was history of

rock music and 500 songs Andrew an

English podcast great podcast real

indepth information about music yeah

yeah that was such a great trip thanks

for having me over there thanks for

coming it was fun Treading Water it was

loved the time with you and your family

so I'm going to I'll invite myself again

you're always welcome on the topic of

meditation uh one of the questions in

this list of questions we'll talk about

the list itself in a moment um was about

this anecdote that you've told me and

you've mentioned a few other places

apparently that you've once meditated

all the way from was it San Francisco to

New York or at Los Angeles uh to New

York flight it was either LA to New York

or New York to LA I can't remember and I

may have done it more than once the

question specifically was which

meditation did you do TM TM was the

first meditation I learned

Transcendental Meditation learned when I

was 14 it's a it's pretty much a default

uh setting for me now sometimes it'll

evolve from TM into breathing like I

might start by doing breathing before

the TM piece starts and I and the

breathing may just take the whole time

or it may turn from breathing into a

gratitude practice or a meta practice

which is a four phrases may I be filled

with loving kindness may I be well may I

be peaceful and at ease may I be happy

and you repeat those phrases over and

over and it starts may I and then

eventually if you've done it for a year

or so you could start saying may we for

your for your immediate family and then

May and then as you build up the charge

for your immediate family in another

year or so you can spread it to your

community and eventually after maybe

five years you can do it for the planet

so that's the Meta Meta

MTA amazing loving kindness practice and

are there any particular

links maybe you could pass us later and

we could put in the captions maybe one

that You' used I learned it from Jack

cornfield who's a Buddhist scholar and a

a brilliant teacher terrific uh what do

you think meditation has allowed you uh

afforded you as well as what it's helped

you avoid in terms of a daily practice

or um maybe in just how doing it once in

a while has Wicked out into areas of

your life this is probably a long list

of things but if you were to pick maybe

like the top three where you go yeah

when I'm meditating regularly blank

happens and blank doesn't happen and

when I'm

not those things because I've been doing

it for such a long time it's so um part

and parcel of who I am that without I

don't know who I would be without it

that said I don't always do it but I

don't have at this point I don't have to

always do it to be in this Zone where

I've been you know

for

almost you know 45 years it's been a big

part of my life

so a great deal of the benefits have are

in me now when I practice it get

Amplified but um as Maharishi described

it every time you meditate is like

making a deposit in a bank so it's

always there every time you do it it's

you're building a base and the goal of

the practice is less about the practice

it's about the practice is to change the

way you are in the

world so it's a practice for

life do do you know what I'm saying like

the the changes that come in the

meditation are to help your reactions in

the real world in some ways not to

trivialize it but it's like physical

exercise you know during a good workout

your blood pressure is really elevated

you're secreting all sorts of

inflammatory cyto kind you know if we

were to draw your blood midw workout uh

you'd say this person is in trouble yeah

but then all these wonderful adaptations

occur that allow you to sleep better

better mood walk upstairs easily and on

and on it's funny about sleeping better

this morning I was walking on the

beach and um had my headphones on wired

headphones and I was listening to a

podcast I can't remember what I was

listening to but I was listening to a

podcast and someone flagged me and

interrupted me who I didn't know and I

went over to talk to him and he said I

heard you talking about Steve Martin on

a podcast and uh and he told me a story

about Steve Martin that he got to see

him in 1979 I would say this person was

probably mid mid to late

60s and he was wearing all black he was

wearing shoes on the beach uh tennis

shoes he was wearing dark sunglasses and

a

hat and

um said uh just want to talk about

comedy and things that he heard me say

on a podcast and we talked about it for

a

while and then he said something about

he loves podcast and he listens to him

at night cuz he's got terrible insomnia

and he can't sleep and I'm looking at a

guy in the sun wearing sunglasses and I

said well you know the reason you can't

sleep is because you're wearing

sunglasses now like what are you talking

about I said well the way the the human

body works is we react to the sun the

sun is what tells us we're awake and

then at night when it's dark that's what

tells us to go to sleep so you're mixing

the signals to your body by wearing the

sunglasses and he said well well I'm a

dermatologist and you know I've been a

do he said he was a dermatologist for

the last 40

years and my whole practice is about

getting people to get out of the

Sun and and I I we started talking about

it and uh he he was all covered up I was

wearing um my my board short and nothing

else and and I said well I'm in the sun

you know hours every day and and he's

like aren't you worried about uh

cancer and I said no I I feel pretty

healthy I feel okay and then he said let

me see your back and I turned around he

looked at my back he's like you have

Perfect Skin he like they should study

you in a in a uh in an Institute I

said this is what normal this is what

normal healthy skin looks like if you're

you expose it to the Sun and he said so

you're saying everything I've been

teaching in my in my uh medical practice

for the last 40 years was wrong said yes

everything it was funny funny

conversation yeah it's interesting I

mean we could go down a deep rabbit hole

with this but you know listeners of this

podcast will know that I'm you know very

much a proponent of getting those

sunlight signals to the eyes at least

once a day in the morning but also in

the in the evening this I'll just share

with you um

now I learned from a a guest whose

episode we haven't um aired yet that the

what is so special about that morning

and evening sunlight are the contrasts

between blues and oranges blues and reds

blues and pinks that we can't always see

if there's cloud cover but they come

through and it's the mathematical

difference in their presence a

subtraction of a lot of blue and then

next to it a lot of orange or a lot of

blue and then next to it a lot of pink

that

triggers the body's understanding that

this is morning and evening and that

night is coming in the evening and that

it's time to be awake in the morning and

throughout the day in the middle of the

day when the sun is out and it's

overhead it looks like white light and

white light includes the blues and the

oranges and the pinks and the Reds but

the they subtract to zero because

they're all mixed together that's why it

looks just blue and white and so while

bright light is great throughout the day

it's those morning signals now the I

think the Dermatology Community is

starting to come online with the idea

that low solar angle sunlight early and

later in the day sunrise sunrising and

sun setting and I say that because

people always go oh do you have to see

across the Horizon that would be ideal

But Rising and

setting do not create the kind of skin

damage or eye damage that they've been

so concerned about and I think the next

step for the field of Dermatology is

going to be to start communicating with

the neuroscientists and the Circadian

biologists and and really uh learning

that so thanks for bridging that gap on

the beach this morning I I do think

that's how starts and then it Wicks out

headphones so um I made the choice a few

years ago to stop using the Bluetooth

headphones based on my personal

experience which was I kept getting

these cysts behind my ears which I was

told were lymph swellings of lymph they

would actually drain lymph if they got

big enough it was it was really gross

and kind of troubling I stopped using

them I didn't get them I started using

them again I started getting those lymph

things and and there was some

significant heat effects as well and

I've interviewed a couple people

including a neurosurgeon on the podcast

about um the level of emfs that come

from them and they were not concerned

others I've spoken to are concerned I'm

going to try and balance out the

conversation over time but my feeling

was look if there's any concern

whatsoever why would I use them and I so

I use the ones with wires yes but you

use the ones with wires that are even

one step further away from um Wi-Fi

transmitters there are ones with air

tubes

that I use depending on what's going on

um and those have no electrical um

there's no electric near your head it's

just an air tube where the sound is

traveling this actual sound is traveling

in the tube tiers I definitely sleep

better with the phone out of the bedroom

some people are now turning off their

Wi-Fi at night I think you and I are

both really aligned in the sense that

we've seen enough things come and go in

the health

space like dis encouraging remarks about

lifting weights like that's just for

bodybuilders and it now everybody knows

muscle bound you become muscle bound now

men and women elderly and young are

encouraged to do resistance training uh

Yogo used to be cast in this kind of

Magic Carpet realm breath work all this

stuff has become over time mainstream

but it's taken a very long time and the

road has been choppy and sometimes in my

opinion really unfair to the to the

practices and and their value I mean

these are zero cost practices in many

many cases that can really help people

and so when I look at something like

sunscreen or or you know Bluetooth

headphones or we're talking about some

of these things I wish I had a portal

into the future where we look back and

go like of course of course so what are

your thoughts on just kind of um health

and wellness as you've observed it in

the last 20 30 years I mean you've been

in this for a while I mean you paid

attention to mindfulness and mindbody

stuff you know what are your thoughts I

I try to live in as natural way as

possible I try to eat as few processed

foods as possible try to eat grass-fed

animals

um and and I use hardly any products of

any kind you know that that aren't just

something that grows or lives on the

planet there were a couple questions

about this I'll ask now um you lost a

tremendous amount of weight you look

great by the way thank you look super

fit every time I see you you're in

better and better shape um and uh that's

that's in that's your perception it's

not in fact the case for I'll accept it

I don't know when I see you each time

you I mean you're extremely mobile you

you're sleeping well you have a robust

life like you know I mean all the marks

of health and vitality

um so I've heard you mention before that

you lost a significant amount of weight

how much weight and how did you do it

135 lbs through a high

protein

low calorie low carb diet and that went

against the convention at the time uh

well the person who suggested it was uh

uh someone at UCLA so it was a

mainstream Doctor Who helped me with my

weight loss I had been a vegan at that

time which was not mainstream then and

it was very unhealthy but I did that for

20 some hot years because I believed in

the theory of it but it proved not not

to be um healthy for me do you think

that different diets likely work for

different people

yes so that not everyone necessarily

should do what you did no yeah no but I

I think most people would probably

benefit from healthy red

meat I'm saying that only because it's

so vilified in our culture yeah I agree

and I think the healthy piece is key

there to non-factory farmed animals um

which fortunately reasonably cost

sources that are becoming more available

M um well I'm going to start pulling

from the list of questions uh by the way

folks there were more than a thousand

questions in just the one-third print

out that I did um it's an intimidating

stack in front of you it's the most

notes I've ever put in front of me

during a guest uh discussion here on the

podcast and we are not going to ask you

every question but I've organized them

in a in a some sense of a coherent order

um did you organize them or did AI

organize them I organize them but that's

a great opportunity to ask you one of

the questions that came up several times

which was um what are your thoughts on

AI and its ability to um shape how music

is made how Visual Arts are made are you

one of these like scared of AI or do you

Embrace new technology I don't know

enough about it yet to to talk about it

what I will say is what what I find

interesting about art is the point of

view of the person and making it and I

don't know that AI has a point of view

of its own so and I don't know how

interesting it would be ai's point of

view uh but I like people's points of

view and what makes an artist a great

artist to me is something about their

point of view does something with to me

childhood a question for Rick ruin was

what activities did you find most

enjoyable and easy to get lost in as a

child

I love this question for you in

particular reading was a big part of my

life listening to music was a big part

of my life playing guitar along with

music can't really play but the idea of

playing along so it didn't have to

actually be good enough to play along

because I didn't have that skill set but

I like the experience of doing my best

to play along with something I was

listening to and um also magic uh

learning like shuffling cards in front

of a mirror and

um coin tricks and uh slide of hand was

just interesting to me do you still do

magic I don't okay at the time that

music took over my life I had to choose

between the two because both of them

were full-time life

Pursuits I went and saw a mentalist in

New York this summer with my sister AI

wind is his name ASI first name last

name

wind every time I I see a mentalist and

especially when I see aie I've seen him

twice it it blows my mind what are your

thoughts on mentalists as it's my

favorite form of magic it's the most

interesting because it it doesn't rely

on props it it's it's it's

pure

um it feels like pure magic MH you know

if if you have a box and you pull

something out of the box there's

probably something tricky about the box

but when someone can look at you and

tell you what you're

thinking it's just wild it's really wild

so I love

that after aie did his his act um when

we pseudo returned to reality cuz it

really does change the way you look at

things after that for quite a while

maybe forever I asked him if he was was

willing to share maybe just like one

nugget of insight into how he does what

he does with and of course I wasn't

expecting he was going to give away the

whole thing and he said um a lot of it

has to do with forming and erasing

memories in people quickly which sounds

very kind of dark and mysterious really

interesting yeah that maybe it's

possible to to erase memories wow people

like maybe what we thought we saw we

really didn't see or hear wow so I dig

that descrip yeah I'm going to bring him

out here by the way so we should all get

together I want to get him on the

podcast okay a full 10% of the questions

for you were around writer blocks

sticking

points this kind of thing like feeling

stuck in the creative process now people

didn't specify whether or not they were

stuck at the beginning the middle of the

end but based on my read of all of these

questions I got the sense that people

were feeling like there's something in

them that they want access to they want

to create but they don't know how to get

past that initial stage as opposed to

somebody who's like you know 90% done

and they just can't finish the last

10% what are your thoughts about these

kinds of blocks and how to overcome them

um any experience you've had with them

yourself and perhaps with uh working

with other artists the first thought is

to go past the idea of the block and

think about what what

is what's the cause of the

block and the block is usually something

like it's either a personal I'm not good

enough it's it can be a confidence

issue I don't have anything to

say or it could be a

um thinking about someone else nobody's

going to like what I

make do do you know what I'm saying so

it's either a A self-judgment or fear of

outside

judgment so if you're making

something with a with a freedom

of this is something I'm making for

myself for now that's all it

is it's a diary

entry everything I make is a diary

entry the beauty of a diary entry is I

can write my diary

entry and you can't tell

me my diary entry wasn't good enough or

that's not what I that's not what I

experienced of course it's what I

experienced it's I'm writing a personal

diary for myself no one else can judge

it it is my experience of of my

life everything we make can be that can

be a

personal reflection of who we are in

that moment of time it doesn't have to

be the greatest you could ever do it

doesn't have to have any expectation

that it's going to change the world it

doesn't have to be this has to sell a

certain number of copies for any reason

it doesn't have any of those things all

it is is I'm making this thing I'm

making this thing for me and I I want to

do it to the best of my ability to where

I feel good about it and where it's

honest it's honest of where I'm

at and if you're living in this world of

just being honest to where you're

at there's nothing blocking that do you

know what I'm saying there are no blocks

the blocks are all based

on dealing with a different force or a

different

perception that is made up you know you

make up this story and you're living the

story I'm in this block

because I just can't do it the reason

you can't do it is because you're afraid

someone else is not going to like it or

you're there are no blocks is there's

infinite amount of information out there

to work with because it doesn't it also

doesn't stem from us so we're we're

vehicles for this information and it's

coming through us all the time so if you

don't have an idea when you're sitting

at your desk if you go for a walk

chances are you'll see something that'll

spark something in you as a as a seed to

take off

from that makes a lot of sense

and I had a thought while you were

saying that one of the challenges that I

have in completing work and getting into

a good work Groove is that um especially

nowadays because of phones and so easy

to communicate with other people it's

not that they interrupt me it's that and

and this happened the other day I set up

my new office really nicely I'm living

in a very quiet place now it's like

almost completely

silent unless I'm playing music it's

really interesting or the coyotes

sometimes come around and start doing

their thing at night but completely

silent and I realized I was having a

hard time getting into a work Groove and

I realized that I felt compelled to

continue to reach out to people and then

I realize as you just provided your

answer to the last question that you

know there's probably something in me

that has a bit of a fear

of separation or abandonment from People

based on my own experience and I feel

very well supported by my friends and

co-workers these days very very well

supported I'm in a kind of Pinch Me

place around that and but I realize now

that what's happening in my mind is it's

not a challenge of getting into the work

it's a fear that if I spend a couple

hours really in that tight tunnel of

creation that

there might not be anyone there when I

exit it which is a crazy thought that's

a crazy thought but that's the anxiety

and I only realize that now yeah so

thank you great you know I trust that

you guys will be there when I when I

exit the tunnel and when there's a

deadline I have no choice but to jump

into that tunnel that that's actually uh

what helps deadlines really help me do

deadlines help you do you like deadlines

uh deadlines don't help me at the

beginning of a process they can help at

the end once the code's been cracked

usually when I start something I have no

idea what it's going to be um so it's a

very open process in the beginning and

if there's any sense of uh required

timing that would undermine the freedom

needed for it to be all that it could be

but once the codee's cracked and you

know what it is and it's all there and

you're just you know the you're dealing

with the fine points then um it can be

really helpful to have a deadline

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huberman a number of questions were were

sort of comments about what people

believe your process is and one of the

repeating themes there which I thought

was interesting was it seems that Rick

Rubin is comfortable with uncertainty

and the unknown yes that is true yes and

no yes I am comfortable with it because

I accept that's the way things

are that said when I start a new project

I always have anxiety because I'm

uncertain of what's going to happen

and I want it to be good now I know it

won't be done until I feel good about it

so in that way there is no um there's no

real pressure but I do still feel this

anxiety of I wonder what's going to

happen today I hope it's good you know

when you've worked with musical artists

let's say um how important is it to you

to know what challenges maybe even what

successes but certainly what challenges

they happen to be going through at that

period in

time put differently do you end finding

yourself playing therapist and guide and

um psychological SL emotional mentor to

artists you work with during the

creative

process or is that

separate uh if they're going through

something that's interfering with the

work anything that gets in the way of

the work is something worth discussing

our Focus they're together is to get the

work

done sometimes it ends up being more

therapeutic to allow that to

happen one of the questions that really

stood out to me in this vast list of

questions um involved a quote from your

last discussion on this podcast our last

discussion on this podcast um so I'm

going to read a little bit of it because

it's fairly long but um I found this to

be a really important question that we

should get into in a bit more depth um

somebody I don't know who said If you

happen to talk to Rick happen to be

talking to you um ask him this for me in

his

book in the section on self-doubt Rick

said quote one of the reasons so many

great artists die of overdoses early in

their lives is because they use drugs to

numb a very painful existence the reason

it is painful is the reason they became

an artist in the first place their

incredible

sensitivity if you see tremendous beauty

or tremendous pain where other people

see little or nothing at all you're

confronted with big feelings all the

time

these emotions can be confusing and

overwhelm and overwhelming excuse me so

this goes on for some pages and then

this person says and I think they're

speaking for many people when they said

this resonated with me personally and I

wonder whether or not this is something

that maybe you've experienced yourself

or that you just noticed about artists

in similar situations and what sort of

advice do you give the artists you work

with in order to embrace

those painful tones Within them and

transmute them into great work I've

definitely felt them myself I'm

unusually sensitive in the world I'm

wearing red glasses in here for a reason

um I live a very um protected monk like

life

because simulation gets in the

way uh of my ability to be where I want

to be so I tend to stay away from things

um and it it seems to be the case with

many

artists

um a desire

for nurturing their internal

life and if if the goal is to nurture

our internal life it it um it invariably

leads to

sacrifices did you do you spend a lot of

time alone as a kid I'm asking this

question I did yeah I was the only child

and I spent most of my time alone when

you talk about controlling this amount

and type of stimulation in your life to

protect that inner landscape does that

pertain to certain personality types

even voice types i' I've found it

various times in my life I love people

but um there there's certain voices that

just great on me and I can't be around

them I just can't be around them they

drive me it brings out but it just it's

like a cacophony inside I just feel like

I'm being asked to drink something that

tastes awful um does it does that

resonate uh I I try to curate the people

around me to be people I want to have

around me whatever that is whatever that

well you said you protect the inner

landscape but certainly you're not

averse to high-intensity stimulation

think last night we went to the aew and

by the way thank you for taking me that

was such an incredible experience it was

really fun it was really fun it reminded

me

of early punk rock shows where like some

of my first punk rock shows where I went

and just was like oh my gosh this is

exciting and scary and I love it yeah

and it felt loving too yes which is also

the community of punk rock that I

observed and have been blessed to be a

part of it's like I it's like there yeah

there's aggression but there's also love

and then there's romance and then

there's also um betrayal and there's all

the elements but there's still a sense

of like everyone wants to be here and

there's a sense of goodness behind it

all even though some of it was bloody

and violent yes so for you what what

does wrestling allow you to feel in

those high-intensity environments it

completely relaxes me because there are

no Stakes you know

nobody everyone's working together in

the show to protect each other no one's

trying to hurt anybody regardless of

what the story line is it's like a

ballet where there's a fight in the

ballet there's no um

there's no actual aggression of people

towards each other it's just the

opposite but you get to experience this

wildly Dynamic exciting

surreal theater

piece uh where people are doing these uh

gymnastic and acrobatic things that are

truly death

defying

um and it's fun and the the story lines

absorb you in a way where you know you

never know what's true and what's not Mo

you know we know wrestling's fake we're

told wrestling's fake but there's

something um legitimate about

it that seems to me more legitimate than

anything else the most

legitimate because it's the closest to

what the world's actually

like people don't always tell you what

they really think and when someone tells

you a story it might not really be the

true

story they may even think they may be

they may think they're telling you the

real story and that might not be the

real story we don't know we know so

little you know we we we experience

something and then we make up a story to

understand it

ourselves and then forever more when we

tell that story it was our version of a

of an experience but we don't know

that's what happened that was our take

on

it um wrestling is like that's what the

real world is

like because we when you watch wrestling

you never know what's true that's what

if you watch the news like you watch

wrestling and you never know what's true

it's more it would be more accurate you

you'd have a better sense of the world

if you took it all in like it was pro

wrestling I think we're in a place in

human history where people are starting

to feel that way about the media it's

also why wrestling's so popular you know

it's it's uh more popular than it's ever

been yeah that's interesting things like

UFC kind of gladiator like octagon

fights and wrestling are increasing in

popularity despite the fact that

supposedly we're evolving so I think it

reflects something both primitive and

evolved about the human brain yes right

primitive in the sense that yeah there's

some violence it's physical that's down

in the hypothalamus as we'd say no it

scratches that

itch

but they're actually protecting each

other you know it scratches that itch of

seeing the

Gladiators but it's like watching a

movie you know it's not they're not

really it's they're not really hurting

each other they get hurt but only

because the things they're doing are so

crazy I think in order to be able to

thoroughly enjoy wrestling one has to be

able to give up narrative distancing

just a little bit right narrative

distancing is this sense that this is a

story it's a movie it's it's not real

but there were moments like yesterday

the the jump off the top rope onto the

guy who SPL out on the ladder the ladder

breaks this was right in front of us it

couldn't have felt good no he walked

away he seemed fine yeah uh is but that

and then um there was a match between

two women where a woman put a metal

plate into her uh into the bottoms of

her suit and then ran in then jumped

onto the other woman and you know hit

her with the metal and then the metal

plate kind of slipped out and she was

walking around and everyone knew she had

cheated cuz you're not supposed to use

the metal plate but so it was sort of

exciting cuz she had done it exciting

cuz she had gotten away with it and then

at the same time exciting and upsetting

that the referee saw it but then didn't

call it this is like Twitter X this is

like Instagram this is like politics

this is like this is real life right

like seeing people get away with things

is so frustrating if you feel they

shouldn't have yeah that's all part of

it it's like uh it's a very uh accurate

representation of the world love it I

I'm it's it's weird because I never

would have thought I'd be hooked I'm

hooked it's like archery and

professional wrestling now it's like I'm

going to be busy guy in

24 I'm going to come back to this very

practical question and ask a different

question

first there are a few comments in here

that are just Priceless by the way so

wanted to point out that you're a Pisces

and so is

Einstein a couple of historical

questions I know you're not big on

answering historical questions um

necessarily maybe you are but I can't

help every time I see you asking a

question about the Ramones or asking a

question about Joe Strummer but I I like

this question first of all it starts off

I love Rick Rubin he's so fascinating

there's so many questions that start

that

way

on the podcast that you did with Joe

Rogan uh you talked about your

experience with Johnny Cash and seeing

him in a new light after doing

interviews for a book about Johnny or

something like that um the question this

person asked was from your present view

what was the most impactful moment or

moments from being with him and working

with him or simply do you recall a

moment working with Johnny Cash that you

particularly

enjoyed uh I enjoyed anytime I got to

spend time with him he was a really

Soulful

serious

shy quiet man incredibly knowledgeable

he knew a great deal about history and a

so much about music he knew every song

he didn't he may not have known modern

songs but he knew the history of

Music um really

well and there was just a a humble

honesty about him

that came through I think that the

strength of him as an artist was when he

said words even if he didn't write the

words if he told a story in words you

believed that

story so he had a a credible

gravitas and um he was great because of

who he was it wasn't his ability as a

singer it wasn't his ability as a

songwriter or although he was a great

songwriter and he was a great singer but

that's not why he was Johnny Cash He was

Johnny Cash because of the human

being underneath and anything that that

guy would have

done we would be interested in because

that's how much of a beam of light he

was on the planet it just happened to be

music just happened to be

music I love

that one question that came up a lot and

I I think I can understand understand

why which

is how does one convince themselves that

what they're doing and working on is

worth it and I think here we have to

Define worth it um and we can Define

that a number of ways but I think this

is a feeling that I hear people Express

a lot like how do I know if I'm on the

right path and I just want to remind

your earlier answer that you're pretty

comfortable with uncertainty yeah this

and the unknown and I think that's a

rare trait the question of worth it is

reliant on an

outcome we don't make these things for

an

outcome it's it's it's not the mindset

to make something

great the outcome happens you're making

the best thing you can make it's a it's

a devotional practice whatever happens

after

that happens and that part that happens

after it is completely out of your

control

putting any energy into that part that's

out of your control it's a waste of time

all it is all it does is undermine your

work your work is to make the best thing

you can so any thought you have about

outcome undermines the whole

thing let that one sink in I think

that's so important for people to hear

and I'll say it's okay to think about

outcome after you finished the thing

you're making once you've made it then

you can say hm what can I do to turn

people on to this but in the making of

it it's

premature which brings my mind back to

that diary entry like approach because

when you do a diary entry if you lie to

yourself you're going to get a lot less

out of it it's it's a ridiculous idea

lying in your diary entries it is well

it's so interesting because when you

learn how to do really good science and

I was fortunate to work with someone who

was truly committed to the truth and

accuracy she used to just say whenever

there was a scandal published like

someone fabricated data she was like

this is so crazy like like why would you

get into science you'd be if you want to

make you be better off going into

something else so clearly they weren't

those people who make up data were not

in science for discovery of Truth as

best we can understand it they were into

it for something else but it's the same

way you do you formulate a question then

a hypothesis and then you just go see

what is and what isn't and then

afterwards you decide well is this a

paper that's send to a top journal or a

mediocre Journal but you can't control

the outcome so it's very similar exactly

the same and and it you'll see it in so

many different aspects of Life Beyond

art it's it's I think one of the things

that was interesting that came up in

writing the book is it

started being about art and I came to

realize as I was putting the ideas

together that it seems like regardless

of what you do in life if you follow

these principles your life life will

probably improve you'll probably be a

better husband or a better father or a

better whatever it is it's

um it seems like the the art is an

outgrowth of it's why the subtitle is a

way of being it's like you

create yourself in a way in the world

where the things that you make are

tapped into something

deep but that comes from you being

tapped into something deep that's how it

work works so tapping into self

grounding in self not thinking about

outcome diary entry like approach to

creating

stuff seems to be the and I I think one

thing I'll I'll say to that because I

say tapping into self it doesn't come

from the self but you have to tap into

yourself because you're the vessel to

allow it to come

out everything in the vessel is coming

from somewhere

else it's not it's not your

creation you're the

um it's like you're the sculptor or the

you're the data an analyst where you're

taking these things from different

places that you've noticed some things

that you've noticed some things that you

don't know that you've noticed but you

did you know that's how we learned you

know we take in a lot of information

that we don't even know we're taking

in but the way we can take these data

points that are inside of us that came

from outside of us and create a

constellation that's what that's what

the artist job is but also that's what

we all do all the time and to get better

at it it's getting more in tune with

yourself and opening yourself to things

outside of um I'll say if you have a

narrow belief

system you'll have less information to

to work with less data points so being

open-minded and um allowing surprise to

be

surprised holding all of your beliefs

very

Loosely it's interesting because it the

way you describe this and from knowing

you as well it it seems that this whole

process is best served by having really

good boundaries like not

getting um foggy about what's about you

and what's about somebody else or about

what other people want or the world

wants but also having really good

antenna and being able to see what's

happening in the world you can't be

cloistered and and like this no um but

part of the creative process kind of

feels and looks like you you're in

you're in a tunnel but then you you have

to bring in from the outside I mean that

um so it seems like making these two two

separate compartments that you can

Bridge um seems important and healthy I

mean here as you mentioned it's a way of

being it's not just about creating

things that's also a healthy way to be

in the world because if you're

constantly getting pulled around by

everything emotionally and things are

upsetting you that's not good but if

you're just cut off from

everything that's not good

either do you cultivate that way of

being through these practices um or do

you think you've been there's something

about the way you're wired that you

started off that way it feels natural to

me it feels natural to me and I'll tell

you when I was younger I thought I would

live in New York City my whole life and

there was a time when I felt like having

that energy and noise around me felt

good now I feel best in the jungle or

the

forest I didn't decide that I didn't

decide what feels good you know it it

just happened so you're clearly willing

to update and adapt change your

nutrition change your city the way you

feel get new information update love it

you're a scientist AB well I don't know

anything again we start with I know

nothing we all know

nothing so if something sounds

interesting worth trying I'll try it see

does it work does it not work you know I

thought at one point in time I thought

veganism was a good idea I was excited

about

it and I did it for a long time I didn't

get the results I was hoping for I

didn't have Better Health I had much

worse health I had you know a tremendous

amount of weight gain and um I was very

ill through that diet but I didn't my

intentions were good how do you approach

resistance especially resistance in

other artists you work with you know

presumably people hire you they they

want to work with you they they do want

to work with you but I think what the

person is asking here is if somebody

you're working with is stuck like

they're stuck do you ask them to think

do you ask them to feel do you ask them

to take a day off do you uh do a Dennis

Rodman on them and send them to Vegas to

party for a couple of days because

that's what worked for

Dennis do you leave them

alone let them come to you I think

people are very curious about what those

sorts of interactions are like I think

it's always a case-by case situation it

really depends on the artist it depends

on the situation and um and usually by

the time that we're working together

any resistance they had in the past has

already been overcome usually we I'm

together with someone who we we make a

team with the idea of making the best

thing we possibly can and we'll both do

anything we can for that thing to be the

best it can it can be we're past the

resistance I noce you remain friends

with a lot of the people you've worked

with which is a great Testament to you

and your work and who you are I just

want to mention that that's not always

the case folks with uh other producer

artist relationships so it's worth

pointing out a practical question but I

think one that um is is worth asking is

uh do you handle the finances around

your work with artists do you have

someone else do like negotiations and

all of that kind of stuff I honestly

have no idea how it

works I have no

clue it see everything seems to get done

but I have no idea in the inner work of

any of it I try to I try to stay out of

as

much

um if it's not about making the

beautiful thing in the moment I don't

really want to think about it too much I

don't want to be involved in that aspect

there interesting when I was visiting

you this summer we had a really

delightful dinner conversation with one

of your other guests and at one point

probably due to me frankly the

conversation veered a bit into the

business realm and I'll never forget you

said in a very polite way that didn't

feel dismissive at all you

said let's talk about art

instead right like enough about business

let's talk about art instead and and in

that moment I don't remember that well I

gleaned a lot of gems from that visit um

I wasn't there to study you I was there

to hang out with you but I gleaned so

many gems treading water in the pool

some of the other practices we'll talk

about but I remember that and I think

about that in myself a lot in the

morning you know the emails and things

coming in and then I

think my purpose in life at this point

in my life is to collect organize and

disseminate health and science

information yes so that for me is Art in

this sense and anything else feels kind

of someone else can do that right

someone else can do you have a

particular gift and that you can take

complicated scientific ideas and explain

them in a way that all of us who are not

scientists or not um

medical students can understand and it's

really helpful and you do it in a kind

and loving way

where we get the sense that you care

that we understand you explain it in a

way that there's a a a care in it that

really speaks to us so thank you for

thank you for teaching us thank you and

thanks for the words that means a lot to

me that is indeed what it is for me I

want people to know the information

because I think it's so cool and so

important and they need the information

and it's not about me it's like I like

they have to know and you did it this

morning for this guy on the beach so I

he'll he'll see the light pun intended

I'd like to take a quick break and thank

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huberman do you prefer the WWE or the

aew Rick I love them both I love pro

wrestling pro wrestling is

great how often do you abandon an idea

or project like is there a is there a

pile of of journals with crossed out

ideas some place in Rick rubin's

basement I would say there there are

many ideas that have not yet come to

fruition but I wouldn't say I've

abandoned

any they it seems

like the ideas have a time when they

want to come to fruition and regardless

of what I think I don't get to determine

the

calendar the ideas come I can get

excited about it I can work on it and

then hit a wall nothing else and nothing

it just impenetrable and then there'll

be another project that just sailing

along easily and the universe is working

to help support that idea so I tend to

work where there's several balls in the

air at once and I don't fight

against

[Music]

um if the universe is not helping a

project I'm wey to fight with the

universe how many projects are you

working on right now or typically I it's

impossible for me to even say there are

so many there's so many ideas and some

of them are

in idea phase and some of them are in

mid you know mid-ming stage and some of

them are in the final you know final

detail stage there's always something

happening I'm always thinking about a

lot of stuff and some of it

is stuff that I get to share with the

world but some of it might be you know

remodeling a space or uh I'm always

thinking about some creative uh

puzzle I have to imagine that for you

when the

internet came to be that it must have

been really exciting because like me you

love foraging for information I used to

go to the library and Xerox copy papers

and I loved looking through the stacks

but frankly it was physically exhausting

and timec consuming and financially it

was hard for me at the time and then

you'd always get those copies where like

the book creas you know obscured uh that

the the text closer to the to the spine

of the book and you know I love PubMed I

mean like the world's at my fingertips

the world of research is at my

fingertips my goodness uh how do you

feel about smartphones and the internet

I mean to you does it feel like a like a

giant gift for your creative process or

is it an inhibitor it's it's both you

know I love that all the information is

at our

fingertips

and sometimes have having so much

information is

um it's hard to sort I'll tell you a

quick a quick story which was when the

music streaming Revolution happened I

was really excited the idea that all of

music is in my pocket now and I can

listen to any any song any album from

any point in my life or I get to hear

about something and it's all accessible

right now in this moment and I was

thinking at that time

I'm just going to DJ all I'm going to do

is DJ and I'm going to listen to

anything I can think of that I'm excited

about haven't heard the Talking Heads in

a while let's listen to Talking Heads

just how great that that freedom is to

have everything at your fingertips and

what I came to learn very quickly is I

don't want to DJ all day I love that I

have the ability to DJ all day I love

that when there's something I want to

here I can find it but I don't want to

have to do the work of pick everything

I'm going to listen to I like being

programmed to and I like the discovery

of somebody else playing something that

I wasn't expecting and getting to enjoy

that so now I do more listening to

either somebody's curated playlists or

uh online radio stations and I do less

picking music to listen to but I never

would have known that before because I

always thought well if I could listen

anything I want I want to listen to what

I want to listen to I didn't know that I

didn't want to have to pick it I love

the rare lie versions and um bsides and

whatever Z sides that one can find on

YouTube like the other day you sent me

just at random a a clip from I think it

was a

Japanese television show with the

Ramones opening up um and Johnny opens

up

with you're loud mouth baby you better

shut up and then they they

yeah and I it's the song I could have

heard anywhere else but it was the fact

that it was shot from

above that it was black and white and

that he adds this little riff at the

beginning you're a loud mouth baby you

better shut up and then just dives into

it that made it for me as a huge Ramon's

fan I was like yeah like you know I

think I did that in my kitchen yeah like

I was so hyped because when you go and

just listen to a

song that's recorded as part of an album

you're not not going to get those

additional

pieces back in the day and still now if

you went to a live show you might see

that and hear that and never forget that

but in that sense to me YouTube and and

the internet is like wow like it's this

AR Archive of gems that I I potentially

have been there maybe it was 79 I would

have been four years old yeah so you

know um anyway thanks for sending me

that clip loved it because you know how

much I love the rones but um things like

that I just think God the Internet is

just

amazing and so spectacular yeah and the

amount of lectures you could find on

YouTube are

unbelievable the the greatest thinkers

in the world I I don't want to say are

on YouTube because they probably didn't

post on YouTube but their material is on

YouTube and it's unbelievable you know

things from old films from the 50s and

60s it's all on YouTube yeah I've been

listening to Bible interpretation on

YouTube wow and there's just it's

interesting to hear different

interpretations from different

perspectives I would have never found

these people most of them are links

please yeah they're so good I'm I'm

trying to work through the Old Testament

start to finish now as a as a learning

and a practice and wow okay so the

question was are smartphones the chains

that bind us and prevent our

creativity um but I think you answered

that it's both a um a rocket ship to

creativity and a and a and chains to the

ground yeah and it's like all of it

tools it's like the tools don't make or

break your art it's just it's another

tool you can use it or misuse

it someone wanted to know and I would

like to know whether or not you have any

recurring dreams and what are your

thoughts on dreams and dreaming in

general do you write down your dreams do

you spend time thinking about them I've

gone I've gone through phases of my life

where I've written down dreams I'm not

doing it right now

um I think we can learn a lot from from

writing our dreams I tend not to analyze

in the moment but I've noticed when I've

kept a dream journal and looked at it

years

later these surreal things that made no

sense were all saying the same thing and

they were all very clear based on my

life experience at that time so it gives

us Clues as

to um what's actually going on the way

our subconscious is experiencing Our

Lives it's giving us a I don't know if I

would call them pointers um

Reflections would maybe be a better

word our mutual friend Paul kti um

believes that the unconscious or

subconscious is uh both used

interchangeably is the supercomputer of

the human brain that the

misconception is that the forbrain which

is involved in planning and context and

anticipation of outcomes Etc people

think that's the supercomputer but that

the supercomputer is the unconscious

that's Paul's belief

he's stated that very clearly on this

podcast and elsewhere and he believes

that in dreams the unconscious mind is

controlling more of the dialogue which

makes a lot of sense yeah but also that

the unconscious mind is constantly

trying to teach us things in the way

that we learn best so like my dreams for

instance are all analogies because

that's pretty much if people listen to

me talk on the podcast I often we use

analogy um and I'm very visual so it

will present things to me in visual

symbols so Paul said in terms of dream

interpretation that we would all be wise

to think about how we learn best and our

unconscious mind is trying to toss us

things in dreams to um explain things in

the way that we learn it makes sense and

I would say also

unconscious and our Instinct the way we

Act instinctually is a reflection of our

unconscious and as artists that's a

tapping into

that the instinct inct and the

unconscious is where the great ideas are

and then things that come from our um

intellectual selves are are much less

they have much less of a charge they're

much smaller ideas yeah I think uh the

the conscious mind and the intellectual

mind as you you're calling it are bound

to outcome in a big

way I'm going to inject a question of my

own

um I'm fascinated by the way you've

discussed people's real underlying

motivations and how that shapes their

creative process but also their career

um if you would be willing to talk a

little bit about the story of Andrew

Dice Clay that's the story that to me

captures it

best um Andrew Dice Clay uh was a

uh a comedian who told really offensive

jokes and his audience loved him for it

but the people who weren't his

audience didn't really understand it and

they vilified

him and he became a comedian because he

wanted people to love him he didn't

become a comedian to hurt anybody he

wanted to entertain people and while he

was playing to you know sold out Madison

Square Gardens full of

people newspapers would write terrible

things about

him and it really got to him and he

decided to change his artistic output to

try to make the people who didn't like

him like

him and when he did that it undermined

his whole

gift

and it just it seemed like things fell

apart I think he's in a better place now

I haven't I haven't seen him in a while

but I think he's in a better place now

and he's back

to uh caring less about the

reaction and in turn getting a better

reaction um because he's being pure

in what he thinks is

funny I liked him very much in fact I

thought he did a spectacular job as

playing um the female artist's father in

A Star is Born had Le Gaga and um Brad

Cooper he's a really good actor he's a

great actor yeah well

I really like the story about him

because it encapsulates so much that if

people can think about why they do what

they do they're going to avoid

pitfalls um

potentially um but how much time do you

think people should spend introspecting

about what makes them tick and why they

want to entertain or make jokes or um I

don't think it's a one-sized fit I don't

know that I could answer that

question is it true that that ad Rock

encourage you to give LL Cool J a chance

yes that is true ad Rock heard the demo

tape and insisted that I listen to

it love

that this is a kind of generic question

but I think it's good to put these in

every once in a while um what is your

advice to a starting comedian you know

these are the the sort of like I I

always think of these like uh you know

sophomore in high school kind of

question but that doesn't necessarily

mean they're bad in some sense that's

what makes it's such a great question

like what would your advice be to a

starting comedian be true to yourself

and not to listen to anyone there you go

um it would be a great book except it'd

be a very short book but you also make

it a very great book um book could be a

blank book could be you can just put all

the things that you want to put in it oh

man I'm working on a book now and I'll

tell you it's hard by the way I asked

Rick for advice about book writing um

because I'm been trying to write this

book for a while and he gave me this the

following advice so I'm injecting my own

question he said the sooner you can get

to a complete draft that you're happy

with or happyish with the better the

process will go so I'm working on

getting that complete draft yeah I would

say don't Focus too much on any of the

individual details until you have the

whole thing down and then you can focus

on all making everything better that you

want to make better don't get bogged

down in that at the expense of getting

through the

project your advice has really been

helping me by the way great I'm doing it

like diary entries great and I've kept a

diary for many years so that's somewhat

natural tell me a little bit about your

diary entries how long how long is a

diary entry sure yeah um a diary entry

is anywhere from like one to eight

handwritten pages single line spacing

going back and forth between I usually

start in all capitals and then switch

over to cursive as I speed up uh I've

been doing that since gosh since high

school School I've got a drawer filled

with them dated and everything and um

it's usually a process of just trying to

get something out of my system that I

feel is is like clogging me some

frustration with the outside world but

sometimes like this morning I journaled

uh in the room before you showed up and

I just was like I think I was riding

high off wrestling last night I was

marveling at how similar the Great

experiences of my life are now as they

were to every other stage of my life in

the sense that they give me this feeling

of like okay like they're these gems and

I'm of people you and others

and experiences and I'm finding them

like I'm experiencing them and reminding

myself that there there are long periods

in between those moments where things

feel kind of

like not empty certainly not empty but

but kind of frustrating in the sense of

like I'm busy and I'm dealing with a

bunch of things and things don't feel

smooth and um but I've been through

enough of these cycles that I

just I'm really learning to enjoy the

cycles and that was it and uh I and I

think the last line in my entry was

something like you know and you know and

I can't wait for more or something so

this morning is just a very positive

entry but sometimes you know I mean they

definitely some tear stained entries and

they definitely some entries where I'm

just so pissed I can barely get the

writing out but it's it's a process of

like getting that stuff out so then I

can lean into the day do you ever go

back and look at them I did the other

day because I recorded an episode on a

very particular type of journaling

that's supported by over 200

peer-reviewed studies which is called

expressive writing I can tell you about

it it's a process that was developed by

James pennebaker who is a professor at

University of Texas Austin and he had

his students

right as part of an experiment for 15

minutes a day for just four days

either consecutive days or a week apart

but about the same thing and the thing

that they're supposed to write about is

the most challenging upsetting or even

traumatizing experience of their life

and it shows that the data from over 200

studies show incredible positive shifts

in Psychology physiology immune system

function and ability to combat

infections I was so struck by the data

from this work that I decided to

dedicate a whole podcast episode to it

it'll probably be out by time um this

episode airs but um I haven't done that

one yet I'm going to do it it's a little

bit of a higher bar entry cuz it's like

okay I'm going to I hear that the first

day especially is pretty upsetting

because you're purposely picking

something really hard but

um yeah but most of the journaling I do

is just kind of diary like here's what

happened here's what's going on and my

biggest fear is that somebody would find

them but in preparation for that episode

about penne Baker I went and looked at

my journals was like what do I write

about and I realized they're pretty

autobiographical um sometimes about

troubling things but never before had I

written four times in a row about the

exact same thing interesting yeah yeah

pennebaker I think deserves a Nobel

Prize if you look at the data on this

compared to and I'm not disparaging

prescription drugs per se but like ssris

for

depression it's like at least as good a

treatment it's like zero cost stuff but

it you know and on and on you don't to

be careful I'll start giving the podcast

again now there were a number of

questions about quote unquote

entertainment and music

industry none of which unfortunately

were particularly complimentary of quote

the industry and I think this is

something that comes up a lot because

people often focus on the marketing the

personalities that may or may not be so

pleasant at times I'm sure there are a

ton of pleasant Personalities in the

industry too but the question is this

how do you deal with the and these are

their words Soul crushing anti- creative

aspects of the entertainment industry

and hold on to that sense of creativity

and love for the work I'm just focused

on the work I don't think of myself as

part of the um the entertainment

industrial

complex I just make the things I make

and then there are other people who are

good at figuring out how to sell them or

get them into stores or get them onto

services do you have a process of

capturing ideas like do you write them

down um and the reason this question

came up so many times I think is that a

lot of people feel like they get great

ideas right upon waking or while driving

or in the shower at random times and

they were wondering whether or not you

have any way of collecting and curating

your ideas prior to embarking on quote

unquote a

project uh I I write them I make notes

in my phone I do it all the time I don't

have a great way of doing it and

sometimes I'll make a note and then come

back to it later and have no idea what

it means do you make those notes uh by

writing or by uh like voice memo writing

that said voice memo might be a

something worth trying I've never tried

that how do you view money in

relationship to your work meaning how do

you place it in the constellation of

things related to a project you

mentioned earlier you let other people

do the negotiations

but money is just another form of energy

um H how do you place it in the in the

Contour of what you do I I don't I try

not to think of it at all and I because

I come from a punk rock background which

was like a do-it-yourself

background it was always more about the

idea and the execution of the idea with

whatever you could use to do it so if I

didn't have uh enough to go to a

professional recording studio then I

would find a friend who had a home

recording studio and recorded or

whatever it was or borrowing a drum

machine when I before I had a drum

machine I would always find ways to make

the things I wanted to make and

um I I can't remember a time where a

financial boundary got in the way of

making something and I see it happening

a lot around me and it um

I think some people look at it as the

money is what allows it to happen and I

think I I just see it as the ideas what

allows it to happen and then the

Ingenuity is figuring out how to do it

with you know by any means necessary

just got to make it whatever the that

version is it may not be the dream

version but whatever version you can

execute is the one for you to

make I can attest to the fact that I

launched my podcast in my closet in

Tanga Canyon yeah which felt felt

totally natural cuz I also come from the

skateboarding punk rock thing where like

wouldn't ever occur to me to like get a

professional studio built like we're in

now we had this one built for us but at

the time like of course you use a closet

because you just need a black backdrop

and you know I think starting from there

makes so much sense and you also realize

in the minimalist approach you know

anything added is just something added

so you don't really know what you need

if you start with a lot of stuff around

you yeah it's it can just be a

distraction I'm friends with Darren

aronowski who's a great director and his

first movie was called pie and he made

it for practically no money and it was

really well-loved and then the next

movie he made was also wildly successful

and he made it for very little money and

then he made this huge hundred million

movie and it wasn't it turned out not to

be a success that movie and it was a

case of where having more money didn't

help him tell a

story it's just one particular case

um and it's no rule to follow uh but

there is something about making the

version that you can make with the means

that you have that adds

something real to the project that may

be better than the one that has a lot of

money thrown at it I'm L that sink in

around a lot of online tutorials for

science have a lot of visuals but we

knew we wanted to do YouTube but also

just pure audio and it there's nothing

more frustrating than somebody talking

about something or somebody that you

can't see because you're just listening

to it um and the visuals were really

expensive to do right and in the end I

think if PE I firmly believe in the

classroom as well as via

podcasting if people can hear something

clearly enough and create an image in

their own mind of how they would

visualize it then it's in there for good

whereas just having people look at a

slide with with a bunch of beautiful

illustrations on it that does nothing

for retention of

material um so I think the minimalist

approach I think sometimes is really the

best one maybe it's always the best one

because it forces the better solution

like the in any

case I do realize I editorialized there

folks I entered the answering portion of

the not just the question asking

portion have you ever felt that

something was too obscure for mainstream

audience appeal to the point where you

did not release it never tell tell us

more if I like something someone else

maybe they'll like it I don't know how

can I judge how can I judge every I've

been

told with every new thing that I've done

it's a terrible idea and it won't work

every single time really every single

time Ghetto Boys LL Cool J beasty boy

Slayer Adele every one of them Eminem

every one of every time when I went from

producing rap records to producing

Slayer you can't do that you're you're a

rap producer it's going to be terrible

don't do it or then Johnny Cash you

can't do that you're a metal rap

producer you can't do that it's going to

be terrible don't do

it every single time still to this

day still to this day I was so excited

when you launched tetragramaton and it's

going so well I listen to every episode

I love the interviews I've been

fortunate to be on there twice I think

the second one is still hasn't been

released yet but I mentioned tetr Graton

because it just feels

so you like the ad read which I talked

about it during my intro but the ad

reads are amazing like I listen to the

ad reads over and over again because

they're so clever and they I don't know

they put me in a state I feel like I'm

watching I'm like I'm transported to as

if I was like born in the 1940s I'm

listening to television for the first

time mhm there's there's something there

like there's really something there it

it's it came out of solving a problem

the problem was uh when I decided to do

the podcast I had even recorded the

first several

episodes um a friend of mine said well

you're going to have to uh if you want

to have uh ads on the show to support

being able to do the show then you're

going to have to read the ads and I said

I don't really feel comfortable reading

as I don't think that's something I can

do

well I said I'm cool with the idea of

only advertising products I believe in

or that I use because that's if I get to

essentially promote something I'll do

that with things that I use but I don't

feel comfortable reading

it

um and he's like well you have to it's

going to be expected of you and it was

just an opportunity it was like uh okay

I understand it's expected of me what

can I do that's true to me that adds

something you know instead of it being

less than how can I make it more than

and it was just solving this problem of

needing a way to have an advertisement

that I didn't feel bad about and then

got inspired and had this idea and

started making them and now they're my

favorite thing in the podcast when it

when it in many podcasts honestly when

the ads come up I forward through them

when as a listener on tetr gramon when

it when a commercial comes on I always

listen to them it's so it's like a it's

a highlight and they make me

smile which is again and again I didn't

set out to do that I I just was trying

to solve a creative

problem so sometimes the um the

innovative ideas don't come when you're

looking for an Innovative idea it's just

there's this slot to fill this is the

way it's normally done I'm not

comfortable able doing it the normal way

how else can we solve this problem and

sometimes it doesn't just solve the

problem but it becomes an actual

feature yeah there's something about

that like solution

seeking

that is part of or at least is aligned

with the creative process right uh yeah

the ads are are extraordinary we were

listening to them in Italy I'm like play

that one again I love the way the guy

says the word he says or

something like but in but I can't do the

accent folks don't don't take what I

just said as as uh evidence of what the

like Australian accent that guy and the

Chimes in the background say is so

good you don't drink alcohol correct

correct have you ever had a sip of

alcohol uh I

had I drank alcohol once as part of a

class

experiment and had to mix all these

drinks and taste them and and um it was

a terrible experience but it was a it

was a requirement in the class I was

taking wow school was different back

then yeah or that school was different

yeah I think school was different we

used to prick our fingers and do our own

blood tests and science class I never

did it cuz I was always needle phobic

but that was definitely something that

was asked of us to do yeah you could

never get away with that now in a high

school

classroom the reason I ask about alcohol

is first of all I'm not the anti-alcohol

Crusader even though I did an episode

about alcohol which discouraged many

people from drinking more of

it

but I think for a lot of people the idea

of smoking cannabis drinking alcohol for

them in their mind is synonymous with

the creative process especially

music um for a lot of reasons that

people can

imagine I think it's remarkable and

impressive and worth spending a few

moments with you sharing with us you

know how is it that you were around all

of that you're clearly part of the part

of the

crew uh meaning you're part of the the

creative process presumably people

offered you alcohol drugs Etc but

something in you seems like resistant to

any kind of peer pressure and and as an

adult that impressive but to think like

you know like when I was 15 16 sure you

know I sort of regret it but yeah I

drank I I had my experiences and then

eventually stopped that but most people

are not good at like not drinking if

they don't want to drink ever or just

once from a high school class what what

was the internal narrative in your mind

um when that stuff was

around and what allowed you to just say

no I'm GNA I belong here but I'm not

going to do that it just was never

interesting to me and I I think maybe it

had to do with being an only child I I

never being an only child I think made

me less resistant to peer pressure

because I felt

more confident in who I was whatever

that was um just from being with my

being with myself and not with other

siblings I'm guessing I don't know if

that's right but that's my first my

first inclination is to guess that would

be the

case also I've always known what I like

and known what I don't like and know

there are things I want to try there are

things I don't want to try and I feel

very good about not doing something I

don't want to do I feel great about

it have you ever been curious about

psychedelics given that I'm very curious

I've never done it but I'm very curious

and I've been curious for a long time

there may be a time when I experiment

yeah there are two psychedelics in

particular that I find really

interesting one is uh macro dooc ibin

which I've done as part of a clinical

trial um and my understanding is it

reveals in a very intense and experient

itial way some component of the

unconscious mind and it allows for

plasticity and

rewiring of the brain that's permanent

if you come to some understanding

through the so-called integration it's

not without its risks the other one

that's really interesting that I've been

hearing more about and I have not tried

um and it carries some dangers as ibigan

which is 22 hours long and people

experience the world as normal with

their eyes open but when they close

their eyes they get a like high

resolution movie like version of Prior

experiences but they have agency within

those movies they can reshape their

reactions this is being used to treat

PTSD and

Veterans uh to great success um it has

some cardiac risk associated with it so

and it's not legal in the United States

it's not being explored in clinical

trials yet but the state of

Kentucky recently took I think it's $40

million from the um oxyc conton

settlement and it's is putting into iag

gain research interesting yeah so those

are the two that kind of spring to mind

you know kind of the classic psychedelic

experience I've also heard good things

about MDMA but I've never done that yeah

I have done MDMA uh as part again as

part of a therapeutic trial it's a

strong

empathogen um the danger with MDMA I

think is that

um if you don't stay in the eye

mask or if you're listening to music or

something you can easily get anchored to

some external cue and like see a plant

and be like I love plants and spend the

whole four to six hours thinking about

your love of plants which might be

valuable but I think the strong

introspective work um is best done with

a therapist there and you and the ey

mask and occasionally leaving the eye

mask and writing things down so you know

the reason I put that detail in there is

that um the Psychedelic experience is

very different with eyes open versus in

the eye mask with a clinician there

versus

recreationally and it's not just about

dangers versus safety it's also about

like it's a big investment and what one

stands to get out of it I think depends

on how much introspection you're willing

to do we won't be doing it this

afternoon there were at least a thousand

questions about attention deficit and

neuroticism people who feel like they

can't organize themselves and I thought

a lot about these questions and tried to

distill them into a single question and

eventually I did and it's this for many

people they associate the creative

process with

disorganization I think what's so

striking about you is that you embody

both the creative process but also a

strong sense of organization around

it like nothing

seems hairbrained or

know like random or halfhazard about

anything that you do and yet for a lot

of people who call themselves creatives

they'll say I'm a creative this that and

you look at the space they're in and

it's like chaos or they or their life is

kind of chaos not all of them

but is what I'm saying making sense

because I think why people Orient toward

you and one of the reasons for your

success with the creative process is

that you extremely organized but not to

the point of being

rigid are you willing to embellish a

little bit on that perception whether or

not it's accurate inaccurate I would say

there's a part in the process early on

where it is before it can get

organized where it's free and it's

playful and it can be

chaotic um it's just not the it's a

byproduct of whatever is happening it

it's not it's good because it's chaotic

and it's it it just happens to be

sometimes chaotic in that in that

experiment in the beginning where we're

really playing with this idea of of

having fun and creating stimulation and

seeing how it makes us feel and we try a

lot of we could try wacky things to get

there um but then when it happens when

you get that that feeling of like oh

this is interesting I haven't seen this

before

then it gets more um

controlled but it starts in a very free

place and I I don't know if I would

really use the word chaotic but it could

be I it certainly wouldn't be wrong I

would say more free would be the word

free like no um no

expectation and total immersion in like

an

improvisation that you're participating

in that can go wherever it wants to go

and you're cool allowing it to go

wherever it wants to go and sometimes

when it goes somewhere dangerous that's

when it gets interesting so the the I

can understand that that danger aspect

maybe that's why I like pro wrestling I

don't know but there's something about

when you get to this these edges where

this is not for

everybody it can get very

interesting speaking of

um stuff that's not for everybody and

that to some people might have been

shocking I remember hearing Ghetto Boys

for the first time and like whoa like

they're taking certain things pretty far

when you're working with an artist and

they venture out into that place where

things are like maybe even a little

shocking what is that feeling for you

internally like is it how do you

distinguish between shock value for its

own sake and something that's really

opening up a new creative Avenue or

Insight like like how do you do you

recall the first time you you heard like

Bushwick and those guys do their thing

yeah what what was your internal

narrative I can't believe it I can't

believe what they're saying it's really

um pushing the boundaries of what anyone

has said in this music before it had

switched because the the original in

originally in rap there was a lot of

boasting

about themselves

bragging and then we got to uh the

message happened and there was some

social

commentary then there was gangster rap

and then the Ghetto Boys took a version

of gangster rap and turned it into

horror rap which was much more graphic

than gangster rap gangster rap was

talking about a um

um a real life

situation whereas the Ghetto Boys took

it into horror movie

territory it was more

fantasy um but it seemed really scary at

the time in the way that you're scared

at a great horror movie do you like

horror movies I don't do you like

monster movies where you know it's not

real like it's

impossible uh as opposed to horror

movies where you know

it's um you know people getting killed

by another human like stuff that could

happen in the world versus um you know

monsters and zombies and that kind of

thing I don't think I really like either

of them very much I like things that

make me feel good I don't really like

adrenaline you know I don't like to be

excited for some

reason in

audio I like something that makes me

excited but in visuals I tend not to

like things that make me excited

M interesting and you're able to kind of

clean yourself of experiences easily

right like it seems like if you listen

to something it's really shocking you

don't carry that shock to your sleep or

to the next day like it doesn't trouble

you but a movie can can impact me like

there was a movie called Melancholia

that I saw years ago Lars vont Trier

movie and I thought it was a very

beautiful movie but I was in a bad mood

I would say for 3 months from the time I

watched that movie on it just like did

something to my brain that didn't feel

good and it couldn't snap out of it so

interesting there there are a few movies

that have done that to me the movie Blue

Valentine which has done really well

um which is with Ryan goling and someone

else where um it's a relationship I

won't explain what happens in The Arc of

the relationship but it just like the

movie Haunted me there's one scene where

he's wearing a misfit shirt and I was

like I like the and that's a

particularly good scene where he's

singing to her um but the rest of the

movie just brings about such feelings of

like just how hard life can be sometimes

and how misguided people can be in

relationship and it it's interesting how

movies can just kind of embed in us it's

not pleasant I don't want to talk about

it

anymore there were a number of questions

asking about how you consume information

in the world related to what's happening

in the world like where do you get your

news from you and I talk about this a

lot how do how do we know what to trust

these days um did should we have ever

trusted the news or is is it less

trustworthy now like where do you get

your information about what's happening

in the world and stay AB breast of like

world affairs I I honestly I don't feel

like I know anything about it you know I

um I tend to look at it all like

wrestling so if the story is good I

might

be more interested in the story but I

still don't hold much uh belief that

that story is

true yeah I don't know what to believe

anymore

uh I was asked to comment on a

particularly well-known person who's not

considered very Savory by a couple

news Avenues in the last couple of years

and um I don't know how people had in

mind that I would have knowledge about

this person and and I gave zero

information to these news outlets and um

nonetheless they they they didn't

publish quotes from me but they they

publish things that I know to be

completely false and they know to be

completely false so I I was just struck

by the fact that like in scientific

publishing that would get you you'd lose

your job forever well at one point in

time you would have lost your job now I

don't know if that's true if you lose

your job cuz we see it happening a lot

right yeah it's wild have you ever read

anything about you that's not true oh

yeah oh yeah okay so based on that

absolutely I mean some of it is playful

stuff like on Reddit and now they're

flagged as as play they have a little

flag that they can put as you know

comedic or something but oh sure I mean

things not just taken out of context but

things like

completely wrong like just like that I I

don't even know where people get this

stuff from I keep waiting for the thing

I'm going to see that says that I'm dead

yeah that'll be that'll be the moment so

based on that experience why would you

believe anything you read about anyone

else you you you get to see

firsthand that there are just stories

just not true and presumably you've seen

things written about you that are not

true absolutely right absolutely right

and artists I know friends of mine they

write things about him I know it's not

true

wild what do you think about the state

of play and is the experience of being a

parent and having a young child has that

allowed you more more opportunities for

play and to see through the world

through childlike lenses in uh greater

capacity or is it you

know just separate from your creative

process I would say I'm fairly childlike

all the time I try to

stay as uh

open the beauty of childhood is that you

don't know you haven't been

um indoctrinated

yet so you you see things and you have

wonder about them and it's a great

feeling that feeling of

Wonder and now when someone I I'll tell

you a story this is a a true story my

friend Owen came over one night in the

middle of the night and he had just seen

um luminescence in the water for the

first time and he had didn't know what

what it was and thought he was having

mystical experience and he was so

excited like you won't believe what

happened the the waves were like there

was light everywhere it was so cool i'

never saw anything like it and I said oh

yeah that's uh luminesence and I

explained what it was and it destroyed

the magic for

him he was really having a childlike

magical experience and I destroyed it by

telling them the science behind

it I try to live in a world where I can

experience what he experiences and I

don't let the story

ruin what's I allow the

possibility to go past what I'm told the

story is that that things can be even

wilder than the rational

explanation for me learning the

reductionist science behind something to

me adds depth and Beauty but then again

I realize I'm

I've been indoctrinated into the the

field of science so the Matrix they call

it the

Matrix this is one I didn't understand

but I'm going to assume that you

understand because it has to do with

people you've worked with if Rick had

casually dropped that the Ramones named

themselves after the fake last name Paul

McCartney used to check into hotels

during Beetle Mania would that have

blown Andrew's mind that's a kind of

weird question I guess the question is

is it true that the Ramones Nam

themselves after the fake last name that