LIVE EVENT Q&A: Dr. Andrew Huberman Question & Answer in Melbourne, AU

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

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life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine recently the hubman Lab podcast

hosted a live event at the plenary

theater in Melbourne Australia the event

was called the brain body contract and

featured a lecture followed by a

question and answer session with the

audience we wanted to make the question

and answer session available to everyone

regardless if you could attend so what

follows is the question and answer

session from the plenary theater in

Melbourne Australia I also would like to

thank the sponsors for the event they

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huberman and now for the question and

answer session from Melbourne

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Australia hey Dr hman uh some some of

your listeners are in or approaching our

50s okay

same um and are thinking of doing all we

can to prevent dementia same do you have

any additional thoughts or protocols or

research we could focus on yes so

um for the next two and a half hours no

I'm kidding the uh I'm not known for

being

succinct I didn't go over too much

earlier so okay so uh ground truths so

let's start with ground truths and then

let's move to um emerging let's maybe

get to a little bit of speculation let's

avoid conjecture um ground

truths um blood circulation is good for

the brain perhaps most important for the

brain so anything that is good for

cardiovascular health is going to be

good for brain health it's not the only

thing but that's true we know this so

you hear these days a lot about Zone 2

cardio I don't know who gets credit for

that petera talks a lot about it I talk

a lot about it none of us invented the

notion but you know 150 probably more

like 180 to 200 minutes of so-called

Zone 2 cardio per week is good numbers

to shoot for some of us get more some of

us less what is Zone 2 cardio Zone 2

cardio is um cardiovascular exercise

could be running could be swimming could

be walking depending on your level of

Fitness which you can just barely

maintain a conversation were you to push

any harder or faster you wouldn't be

able to complete your sentences with

much ease okay so is this zone two

cardio for me no but if I were to jog

and try and have a conversation at some

point I would have a little bit of a

hard time that's Zone 2 cardio um so we

know that's true why uh well it seems to

do a number of things at the level of

release of growth factors brain dve

neutrophic Factor at the level of um

different let's call them I realize the

immunologists are going to like roll

their eyes but um anti-inflam flammatory

cyto kindes and things of that sort you

also have inflammatory cyto kindes um

and things of that sort um it does seem

that increasing blood flow in and

through the brain is important for brain

health which is not all that surprising

there are species of animals that spend

part of their life swimming about and

then when they stop um a good port and

stick to a rock or something good

portion of the nervous system actually

degenerates but neurod

degeneration and dementia are not

necessar neily the same thing and this

is something that we don't often hear

about um the age related decline in

memory capacity in particular working

memory can be related to reductions in

dopamine Transmission in the brain so

things that increase the catacol amines

that we talked about earlier um this

could be pharmacology of course but it

doesn't have to be pharmacology it could

be um anything that increases the

camines um and we talk about this on the

podcast we have zeroc cost protocols

that you don't have have to sign up for

you can just go to our website and go to

dopamine regulation and it will list out

ways to increase the catac colomines

through zero cost and very lowc cost

ways are known to improve working memory

working memory of course the capacity to

maintain a string of numbers or

information for sake of kind of

immediate goals but not information

that's passed to longer term memory so

that's that's different than neurod

degeneration that's simply reductions in

the amount of neuromodulators like

dopamine being deployed as we get older

so modul modulating dopamine through

healthy ideally uh

means but I do think we are going to see

an increase in the use of selective

pharmacology for this purpose and here

I'm not recommending anyone do drugs or

take drugs prescription or

otherwise but it does seem that um

certain compounds like nicotine believe

it or not um even though it increases

vasil constriction and blood pressure um

Can offs set some of the age related

reductions in dopaminergic and coleric

aceto Coline coleric

transmission um and you know you don't

want to smoke Vape dip or snuff I'm not

even recommending people take Zin

patches but I think um there is some use

cases for uh nicotine provided you're

doing it with the you know a your

physician knows and you're not getting

into blood pressure dangerous blood

pressure range or supplementation with

choline donors and things of that sort

to increase acetylcholine and dopamine

some people are starting to take things

like modafanil and adol in older age um

but keep in mind these are not modaal

but adderal liant Etc these are

amphetamines they're amphetamines so I'm

not recommending this but I think that's

where we're headed I think you're going

to see a number of different cognitive

enhancers that are used to offset some

age related um uh cognitive decline AKA

dementia now in terms of um so we're

going Zone 2 cardio to like prescription

drugs we're kind of bracketing here and

then behavioral protocols that can

increase neuromodulators such as the

catac colomines now in terms of um other

things that can perhaps decrease the

likelihood of Alzheimer's and other

forms of dementia as it relates to

neurod

degeneration um currently there are a

lot of do not don't hit your head too

hard if you hit it really hard don't hit

it again hard um the so-call two hit

model literally um you know and and we

think of football or I guess rugby

that's a sport you guys play down here

where they use the head as a battering

ram um I've seen this right some big

necks on those kids and then it boom and

they yeah but the problem is not

necessarily just rugby or American

football um or a I was told that someone

told me I had to shout out an Australian

football team and I know it's a setup so

I'm not going to do it they're like when

you're in Melbourne tomorrow you got to

say that your favorite team is blank and

I'm like this feels really dangerous um

so I'm not going to do it um I'm not

going to do it but what's

that do it I can't remember the name of

the team

sorry um but I watched the document

what's

that um but I still don't understand the

rugby thing they do they use the guy's

head as or G's head as a battering

ram cuz I they used to play you see

outside the my lab we had this big field

and my Bulldog loved watching he was

like this this sport makes sense but um

they were just like run and then the I I

never understood it but anyway what's

that got it I need a translator

sorry so I need a translator um but I

love the

enthusiasm um yeah so we think about um

head injuries and brain injuries mostly

in the context of sport but that's not

where most the head injuries occur most

of them occur construction workers car

accidents TBI things of that sort um

there's some interesting data on

hyperbaric chambers this is getting

really into the you know kind of high

level stuff here meaning most people

don't have access to them I I look

forward to learning more these are

playing with different concentrations of

oxygen in a little micro environment for

traumatic brain injury um and neurod

deener ation I mean do I think in 5

years that everyone's going to be

sitting in hyperbaric chambers order to

offset neuron loss probably not I think

it's not coste effective but um I will

say that most of the things that are

good for the body are good for the brain

um keeping kind of anything that plaques

the arteries capillaries and veins of

the brain because it's so heavily

vascularized um minimal and and minding

those

neuromodulators um obviously drugs of

abuse like methamphetamine can deplete

dopamine neurons the data on MDMA by the

way I don't know there's drug

enforcement in the room um the data you

know where they have most of the safety

data or lack of safety data in some

cases on MDMA keep in mind MDMA ecstasy

is methylene dioxy methampetamine

methamphetamine we know causes

neurodegeneration no question it also

causes bad teeth do you know how do you

know how turns people into mouth

breathers dry mouth and the teeth

degenerate yeah we have an episode on

oral health coming out this this is real

that's actually why the teeth

degenerates from excessive um dry and it

limit saliva production saliva is very

important for remineralization of the

teeth they shout out to the dentist in

the house

so the

the the thing about MDMA is interesting

because it turns out that MDMA because

it also it increases dopamine just as

methamphetamine does remember MDMA

methylene dioxy methamphetamine but also

huge increases in serotonin seem to be

most most of the effect of MDMA the kind

of empathogenic effect um there was a

study done of um people from the LDS

latterday Saints sometimes referred to

as Mormons um why was a study on MDMA

done with people from the LDS community

and I don't want to imply that everyone

from the LDS Community does MDMA but why

they're very interesting um test

population because they don't do other

drugs but for some reason dma is not on

the no fly list so there's is it's a

beautiful paper um in which they took

people who had only done as any drug not

even taking caffeine right either once

or semi frequent or very frequent use of

MDMA and they did a bunch of cognitive

testing and there were some attention

issues when people had taken over what

was a couple hundred doses of of MDMA at

the 80 milligram dose or more but

doesn't seem to be much neurod

degeneration which is not to say that

it's all safe there is an abuse and

addictive potential there the biggest

issue seems to be contamination of

batches if we have a feny issue in the

US I I I don't know if it's happening

down here as well very concerning okay

so the point here is that I think very

soon you're going to hear about drugs

prescription drugs and supplements to

augment the release of neuromodulators

not for sake of empathogenic states or

psychedelic States but to try and keep

those dopaminergic neurons online to

offset dementia because that's what the

question is about in fact there's a

Nobel prize winning neuroscientist at

Columbia University whose name I won't

tell you or maybe I will who when I went

to visit his office chewed no fewer than

five pieces of Nicorette in the course

of a half an hour and I'm like what's

going on he got a Nobel Prize but this

looks kind of pathologic and I said why

and he said well the nicotine is to

offset age related loss of dopaminergic

and coleric neurons I thought really

he's like yeah when I quit smoking

because I want lung cancer but this is

him this is anic data I'm not sugesting

you do this I think there are a number

of things that we can do but protect

those neuromodulators keep perfusion

that is blood flow to the brain strong

there's a a case for cardiovascular

exercise and it does seem it really does

seem that exercise that engages the

neuromuscular connections more than

cardiovascular exercise so not just

resistance training but anything that

invol involves coordinated bodily

training learning new physical skills

Dance Etc really does seem to offset

some of the loss of cognitive fun

functioning in adults so it's kind of

interesting that physical exercise is

great for cognition and probably

cognition may or may not help physical

ability but

one probably can imagine why there's a

bidirectional relationship there your

nervous system doesn't really

distinguish between physical and

cognitive it's all working as a bunch of

functional units I could go on and on

about this but um hopefully that um at

least gets your um the gears turning

around some things that perhaps you've

heard about and some things that you

haven't and we'll do an episode on

dementia and offsetting dementia in

order to get into some of the fine

details

okay can we increase our willpower just

like training a muscle group with your

research into the amcc O I'm so glad

that you mentioned the amcc I think of

all the new areas of Neuroscience

research um that are out there I think

the anterior mid singulate cortex is one

of the most

interesting um structures and and areas

of research nowadays you know I think I

if I have my way then not only will most

people have heard of dopamine and the

amydala I guess you need a Star Wars

character named after your brain part um

isn't there one right I only saw the

first three I'm of that generation but

isn't there a Amidala or something yeah

right don't leave me hang in here is

there or not if I'm wrong just say no

okay anyway the amydala

um thanks the um the amydala is a brain

structure that is involved in threat

detect ction and Novelty detection not

just threats the anterior mid singulate

cortex is an area of the brain that we

know is activated well let me tell you

the best experiment the best experiment

was done in my opinion by a neurosurgeon

at Stanford Joe pery uh he's probing

around in people's brains they got a

little piece of skull missing he's

stimulating in the brain he's asking

them questions how do you feel what's

going on how do you feel what's going on

and he's got this electrode in the

anterior mid singulate cortex

and the patient says I feel like

something really bad's going to happen

like a storm's coming it's like okay

well we can stop stimulating he's like

no I'm going into the storm like oh

that's interesting stimulate a little

bit further back just by a millimeter or

so completely different subjective

experience for the patient that's

interesting get a different patient in

there map to the enter mid singulate

cortex

stimulate and the person says I like I'm

going to get out of my chair and I'm

going to do something hard wild right

this is prior to any knowledge of what

the interior mid singulate cortex is

doing make a long story short people who

successfully overcome a physical

challenge a cognitive challenge that

learn a new skill that um successful

dieters I don't really like that term um

their interor mid signate cortex grows

or becomes more active under conditions

that challenge the inter mid singulate

cortex so this brain region seems to be

the the brain region that puts us in a

forward Center of mass physically and

sort of cognitively and emotionally I

often like to think that you know the

nervous system as sophisticated as it is

and psychology as sophisticated as it is

as it is excuse me can be bined into

kind of three categories things that we

like to eat or don't like to eat or can

kind of be bended into yum yuck or me

that's kind of what the the nervous

system has to do because ultimately you

have to decide do I want to go toward it

so-call repetitive Behavior do I want to

get away from it do nothing people were

either like yum or some cases

yum yuck or in some cases like or like

me right yum y me yum yum me this is the

the sort of three tributaries that we

have the option of moving down not

moving down or moving away from so the

enter mid singulate cortex because it

has inputs from so many different areas

and outputs to so many different areas

it can access circuits related to

dopamine norepinephrine it can access

circuits related to memory and context

it's a hub it's a hub that by All Views

through all lenses of the existing

research suggests that when we anytime

we do something truly challenging in

particular things that we do not enjoy

this is key

the an mid singulate cortex undergo some

sort of

plasticity everything's in the research

data now point to the idea that the

inter mid singulate cortex is the seat

of so-called willpower which is linked

to Concepts like tenacity or grit and

Etc and what I love about this research

is that it comes from a bunch of

different areas human brain Imaging

brain

stimulation

Etc here's what I don't like about the

reality but that we all need to accept

which is that the anterior mid singulate

cortex is modifiable by experience by

leaning into challenges at any stage of

life that's great we talked about that

earlier plasticity but lest we

forget plasticity goes in the other

direction too it seems that when we

don't engage in challenges that the an

mid singulate cortex it doesn't atrophy

but it undergoes sort of a downshift in

activation

now here's what's really really

interesting in relates to the previous

question the anter mid singulate cortex

seems to be especially active at

Baseline and available for plasticity in

what are called superagers superagers

you know we've all heard of blue zones

the superagers are these people who they

don't just exist in blue zones they're

spread around the world these are people

that seem at least by cognitive measures

and other physiological measures of the

body seem to age extremely slowly so

they shouldn't really be called

superagers right they should be called

super non aers anyway the anid singulate

cortex seems to be hyperactive in these

superagers as they're called and so it

seems that not only do they maintain

cognitive function later in life but

that seems to be related to their

regular engagement in challenging things

so remember for so many years years we

heard okay like nuns don't get dementia

and then there's all sorts of things you

can imagine could be related to that and

then we're thinking oh maybe it's

crossword puzzles maybe it's crossword

puzzles maybe it's hanging out with

other people maybe and you know and then

you know that person down the street and

she cycling on the weekends like crazy

and she's 90 and she looks like she's 50

and she's sharp as attack it's probably

leaning into Challenge on a regular

basis leaning into Challenge on a

regular basis as opposed to one specific

cognitive or physical thing which means

that if you love cycling or you love the

cold plunge or you love a certain form

of exercise it's probably not doing that

much for your anterior mid singulate

cortex but these super agers also live

longer and so there is this notion that

because the anterior mid singulate

cortex has connectivity to a lot of

areas of the brain and body that it is

somehow linked to the will to live and

this is being examined now in so-called

terminal cancer patients

so-called you you know terminal cases I

don't like the language because there

are these amazing instances and

Physicians and oncologists have known

this for a long time that when people

decide they're going to fight cancer

they don't always win that fight

unfortunately but often times it's the

people who insist on fighting it

psychologically that they won't give in

that end up still living more months

more years and in some cases putting the

cancer into remission with of course

other tools right I'm not saying you

shouldn't use other tools to combat

cancer it's a very interesting structure

relates to the question on dementia

hopefully that was uh informative Julian

thank you how would you recommend shift

workers minimize the effects of

disruption to their circadian rhythm oh

this is so important you know why

because like right now 92 uh 9:40 p.m.

we're kind of doing shift work right now

most people are on a shift work schedule

now in the world this is true we think

of shift workers as only the people who

are up in the middle of the night

sleeping during the day but most people

are doing shift work the criteria for

shift work is at least a 2hour varant at

least in the US a two-hour variance in

the sleep wake cycle more than three

nights a week anyone here go to sleep

every night same time wake up every

morning the same time never stay up

later than that more than two nights a

week okay most people are doing shift

work nowadays they're just on their

phone or they're on their computer and

I'm not going to argue that's NE you

know you shouldn't uh and many times

that's me as well so here's what we do

know and I could we did whole episode on

shift work but I'll try and summarize

some of the key

points you want to have your cortisol

elevated early in the day and then

subside across the day that's the ideal

pattern of cortisol release cortisol is

a great thing when it's high and then

tapers off from early day into the later

day it's a bad thing if that cortisol

Peak is shifted late that cortisol Peak

is coming every 24 hours you don't have

a choice

question is is it going to be early day

or is it going to be late day late day

cortisol is Peaks are associated with

depression anxiety this was done by my

colleague David Spiegel and the great

Robert spolski at Stanford a study about

that Robert another great

beard

amazing and and and I I always thought

it was to blend in with the species that

he studies cuz he was like the baboon

guy you know I haven't quite figured out

how to master that one you know like the

Cuttlefish look but the um working on it

working on it maybe I just have to no

never mind there's a there's a story

about you heard remember the earlier

story The the made anyway the cuttle

fish anyway never mind

um again this is why I don't like to

speak too late in the day I get myself

into trouble but um the point here um is

that having that cortisol Peak early in

the day sets you up for mood focus and

alertness immune system function and

really um in a really great way shift

workers have a serious problem which is

that late peaks in cortisol are kind of

Paramount in all forms of shift work and

so what you need to do is to put

yourself ideally in lighting conditions

that limit the amount of blue light

coming in at night or when you're doing

that shift work now you have to do your

work and I think in the next two years

if I have my way one one idea that I'd

like to of embed in people's minds is

you you know we hear a lot now about how

hyper processed foods and highly

processed foods are bad for us sort of

empty calories what are empty calories

it's foods that are very calorie dense

but micronutrient poor right that's what

it it really is it's also the quality of

food issues and people get you know like

let's please not have the seed oil

debate it's like people get really into

this and it's unclear to me still and

okay but we we sort of think of empty

calories like alcohol sugar Etc calorie

dense micronutrient po

light can be viewed in much the same way

these days we live in a very blue light

Rich World lot of blue light so short

wavelength light blue light UV light and

by the way in sunlight especially down

here it's very UV Rich blue which is

great during the day especially when

it's offset or or sorry when it includes

long wavelength light full spectrum

light by the way for everyone that's

obsessed with red light and I love red

light and red light therapies remember

the best source of red light is the sun

it's full spectrum light it includes red

it's just there's a bunch of other stuff

in there too see it doesn't look like a

Red Light Panel um that said if you are

going to do shift work one of the best

things you can do it's been shown to

reduce cortisol levels at night while

you're doing that shift

work is to filter out some of the blue

so that is a use case for blue blockers

or even

for glasses that put you into more

reddish conditions provided you can

still do the work work you need to do

safely you will see a dramatic reduction

in cortisol under those conditions this

blue and UV pathway picked up by a

certain set of neurons in the eye the

intrinsically photosensitive melanops

and cells Etc is a real thing and it and

it's designed to activate you this is

why so-called Seasonal effective

disorder lamps sad lamps are basically

bright blue whsh light so when you're

doing that shift work if you can get

into red or orange or light conditions

if that's great you can do this very

inexpensively by the way by just getting

some party lights it doesn't have to be

any fancy red light this is we're not

talking about red light

panels the other thing of course

is when you get back to your nonwork

environment you need to do some work to

think about when is best to sleep when

is not best to sleep you know is it best

to sleep all day and be up all night or

get that sunlight in the morning and I

talk about that in the shift work

episode and I'm tempted to go down that

rabbit hole now but I would just

encourage you to take a look at that

episode and um I'll just cue you all to

a resource the hubman lab.com webbsite

allows you thanks to our wonderful

Engineers to put in multiple topics so

you could say shift work red light or

shift work dopamine or shift work

sunlight and it will take you to the

exact time stamps across all the

episodes where those specific topics

occur is all zero cost as opposed to

having to go and peruse all these

different episodes you a lot of people

have said why not shorter episodes it's

like well the idea was to create a

library of information that now

ai is and better engineering of websites

can allow you to just pull the relevant

information just like you would a book I

used to go with the library for those of

you like me old enough to remember he

actually took this thing called a book

off a shelf he Xerox copied it in any

event he very archaic and very expensive

and you'd always get the margin of the

book in the middle like the the spine it

sucked now you can go to the website and

just get that information and then we

also just launched an ai. huberman

lab.com webbsite again as all zero cost

you can say hey what should I do for

shift work but I wanted you here to come

here tonight so I didn't tell you that

until you got here no I'm just kidding

I'm just kidding okay um and there are a

few other tools about adjusting eating

schedules for and what not for shift

work but um hopefully that gets you

going um Julia thank you what's the

difference between nsdr and meditation

um thank thank you for this question I

am a huge huge huge believer and

proponent and practitioner of nsdr

nonsleep deep rest what is non-sleep

deep rest well to be fair Yoga Nidra

which translates to yoga sleep is a

thousand-year-old

practice um thousands of years little

practice in which you lie completely

still keep the Mind awake you're not

thinking in a structured way it's more

of a body scan directed relaxation Etc I

discovered this in 2015 when I was doing

some research for a book that I still

can't manage to seem to

finish on trauma and addiction and I

went I have a friend very talented

trauma therapist who's managed to help

people with all sorts of addictions

he'll be on the podcast in the not to

distant future and I went down to this

clinic in

Florida and everyone there spent the

first hour of the day doing Yoga Nidra

this is pretty wacky I was still in my

pure science quote unquote pure

scientist naive scientist lens and I

thought what is this about and he said

well you know so much of addiction is

about an inability to regulate impulses

um to deal with agitation especially in

the early days of trying to get sober or

being sober and it just helps people

learn to regul self-direct the their

nervous system in terms of relax

self-directed relaxation it also seems

to help with their sleep it also has

these components about time and and and

sort of if you because he said you know

it's kind of interesting if you take a

step back you know if you can tolerate

craving for a second you just did it so

why couldn't you do it for another

second why could you do it for another

second another second it's not as if it

necessarily increases linearly or over

time so you know what's going on and so

again sort of our ability to realize and

regulate our states across time and to

realize there's this funny thing where

when we feel terrible we think it's

going to go on forever and when we're

happy we we were like certain it's going

to stop there's a kind of asymmetry in

our nervous system that we don't

understand we showed he started talking

about yoga NRA really seems to help

addicts recover and stay sober if they

do it regularly thought well this is

cool what is it I'm a neuroscientist we

started studying in my

laboratory we discovered that the brain

goes into these States during yoga NRA

that are similar to

sleep body still mind

alert and that seems to be very

beneficial maybe even accelerates

neuroplasticity and learning and indeed

there's evidence for that there's

evidence that yoga at from a laboratory

out of

Scandinavia not my laboratory showing

that it can increase dopamine levels in

the striatum basil ganglia by up to 60%

using human positron emission tomography

Imaging so we're talking about how to

increase dopamine through non

pharmacologic means this something about

body still brain active very very

powerful way to do that I I made up this

term This Acronym non-sleep deep rest

because I have tremendous respect for

Yoga Nidra and the the yoga Traditions

but I was concerned for a lot of people

un unfortunately when they hear Yoga

Nidra the it sounds esoteric and they're

not going to approach that practice also

yoga NRA includes intentions and some

things that are a little bit on the

mystical side and I knew I was going to

take some heat for it and I feel badly

about it but that bad feeling is offset

by I think when you call something

non-sleep deep breast it tells you what

it is and then more people are likely to

come to the practice and I felt like it

was worth you know kind of

putting myself you know jumping on the

grenade for that one so non-sleep deep

rest is very effective at restoring

cognitive and physical Vigor and can

indeed offset some degree of sleep loss

it also gets you better at falling and

staying asleep and it's very simple and

very easy to do and it's zero cost and

if you want to try it you can go on to

YouTube and put nsdr in my last name

there's a woman named Kelly boy boys who

has a much more pleasant voice than mine

um who does them as well these are all

zeroc cost protocols she's also in the

waking up app um and there are many of

them common toai as another person who

has you know Wonderful Yoga Nidra

scripts so you can find these things and

they're really about 10 minutes to 20

minutes sometimes 30 minutes long you

can do it for an hour but most people

won't do that consistently you don't

have to do them every day and they're

very very effective at restoring mental

and physical Vigor when you're feeling

depleted and it getting you to be a

better sleeper

so I figure that's a zeroc cost tool

that is grounded in good mechanistic

science and makes sense logically so why

not meditation typically and if and

there many different forms of meditation

but if you're let's just say kind of um

standard if there were such a thing um

third eye meditation closing your eyes

focusing your concentration on a point

just sort of at your forehead

concentrating on breathing redirecting

your attention to your breathing if it

if your attention drifts we know based

on work from Wendy Suzuki's

laboratory at New York University and

some work out of the University of

Wisconsin can improve

memory can improve

focus and does seem to have some stress

offsetting effects but it's more of

a focus exercise as opposed to an energy

replenishing exercise now some people

meditate and feel better afterwards they

have more energy but then it's sort of

like well compared to what um I don't

think that's the maor effect of

meditation and while we're on these

topics I should just say that

self-directed hypnosis of the sort that

my colleague David Spiegel studies is

more about solving a particular problem

so hypnosis is more about engaging

neuroplasticity remember earlier we said

that neuroplasticity in adulthood can be

activated by Focus followed by rest it

seems that in the self-directed hypnotic

States the brain enters kind of pattern

of activity in which

neuroplasticity can be accessed more

quickly we think because the brain is

both focused and relaxed in a particular

way merging that focus and rest State

and of course the hypnotic script is not

about getting you to do crazy things on

stage that's stage hypnosis but

self-directed hypnosis is for instance

smoking sensation by the way the the

success with smoking Sensation from

hypnosis is far greater than the

cessation with smoking from pretty much

any other protocol but unfortunately it

has the name hypnosis which makes people

think about stuff that people do on

stage that's kind of wacky so we need a

new name for it um because unfortunately

names are a problem there there names

can be differentiators as opposed to

integrators they don't bring PE when

people say I'm going to hypnotize you or

you should try hypnosis people like like

yum yuck me they're like yuck so um by

the way does everyone here remember how

you know if you're highly hypnotizable

do you know that the Spiegel eye roll

test it's not what teenagers do David

Spiegel and his father psychiat

discovered the clinical application of

hypnosis it's a clinically approved tool

there's brain stem neurons that cause

elevations and alertness and focus and

they're associated with moving the eyes

up they're brain stem neurons that close

the eyelids and push and essentially

Drive the eyes down that are associated

with parasympathetic states which why

you like this when you're tired you're

out there I'm

sure if you are capable of keeping your

ey your gaze upward and closing your

eyelids you

score on a particular end of the

so-called Spiel eye roll test which

makes you highly

hypnotizable because that state of

hypnosis is one in which you're what

alert but very very relaxed so if you go

to Spiegel's laboratory they're going to

look at you and they say look up at the

ceiling and then close your eyelids and

if you can still see the whites of if

they still see the whites of your eyes

as your eyelids close well then you're

in the highly hypnotizable realm kind of

interesting right there's all nervous

system related and you can see this

stuff is this is like real clinical

tools okay how do we stop ourselves from

mindlessly scrolling on our

phones hard questions um I didn't look

at my watch because I'm bored I'm just

thinking how much time do you have

um well on the way here to Australia my

Rob who you met earlier my friend and

podcast producer he said okay

guys everyone's deleting social media

from your phones for the whole trip the

whole trip and I'm like I don't know if

I can go on this trip Rob no I'm kidding

um uh we got one we have one guy who's

kept it on his phone so that we can post

things um and we continue

to honestly I think that's what it

takes um if it's social media that

you're scrolling I think you should do a

delete and

reinstall if I'm honest a delete and

reinstall every day uh because I think

and then you have to limit the amount of

time and one of the members of my

podcast team experienced this he said I

just picked up my phone a minute ago and

I went to like hit the Instagram Tab and

it wasn't there and I know it's not

there and that's where I say yeah at

some point it becomes more compulsive

than addiction these are just reflexive

behaviors it's like walking in the

refrigerator like I did every day of my

life all day I just I walk into people's

homes and just look in the refrigerator

I don't even know I get into people's

cars I look in the glove box I just do

this I'm kind of like looking around I'm

not going to steal anything but it's

like the teenage boy in me you know just

kind walk in I'm going to open your

refrigerator um so I think it's it gets

to the point of

reflexive and it's compulsive and it

might be

addictive but it can't be good when it's

like that um but I think social media

can be really useful so I think um if

you're you can set timers you can try

graying out the screen getting rid of

the color thing there's all this stuff

but I think if if there are particular

apps that you're struggling with I would

just delete them from your phone and and

do a reinstall because that's enough of

a of a behavioral barrier there are

enough steps involved enough sequencing

to put the thing back on there each day

and each time maybe twice a day that

you're going to vastly reduce your use

to be honest I think that's probably the

best way to do it and there are probably

people in this audience that are

thinking this seems crazy like just

don't turn it on just don't just don't

open it and look if I was 65 years old

I'd say that too

but it doesn't work that way for

certainly the younger generation it

doesn't I know this because I gave a

talk at Santa Clara University a few

years ago and I was talking about

limiting social uh social media use and

phones and this kid came up to me

afterwards he said you don't get it he

like you're like back then I was like 43

he said you don't get it he said for you

the phone was a thing that you like

integrated into your like post 9s High

School life like you watched The

Breakfast Club or I don't know how he

knew that movie I was like you're right

I did watch The Breakfast Club a bunch

of

times and he said but for us it's like

life I like I rolled my eyes and I

thought wait no listen I'm going to

listen because no one knows what it's

like to be 16 years old or 24 years old

in 2024 unless you're 16 or 24 like okay

here we go listen he said when my phone

he said when my phone Powers down

I feel the energy drain out of me and

when it comes back up I feel Life Energy

come back into my body and I thought oh

my goodness like we are hosed but that's

but that's the reality and I'm of the

mind you know I was a I was a camp

counselor I worked with at risk kids I

was a wild kid and you learn something

especially when you work with kids like

me when I was a teenager I was a Helen

is be a channel not a damn you cannot

block the system that's emerged this is

here and it's here to stay so I think

things like deleting the app is putting

it back on there is the only way to go

we have to listen I think we have to

listen understand that you know we after

all adults created these Technologies

and these kids are using them and I

don't think we're going to see a

reversal I don't so we have to really I

think that what he said to me as scary

as it was to me I think reflects the

reality it's part of their life energy

it's part of their connectivity and we

we're going to have to come up with

better tools and I doubt those tools are

going to be uh to the effect of

eliminating it you could say

unfortunately you know all the adult

last I checked I'm an adult people in my

life have argued differently but I think

we're going to have to learn to be a

channel not a dam with this uh I do if

resources and ethics were not an issue

what would your dream clinical trial to

run oh my

goodness this is a hard question

okay um dream clinical

trial what's

that oh gosh the accent is killing

me more cuddlefish yeah more cuddlefish

like cuddlefish I like the idea of more

cuddling

um physical contact so key

um I think we're all still recovering

from the years we had a few years of

just like no physical like physical

contact so minimal um I mean there's the

classic harlo experiments right the wire

monkey or versus the cloth monkey I mean

primates go to the cloth monkey even if

they don't get food there I mean it's

such a critical component of you know

how our nervous system forms um the I

think this is a this is a you know what

I'm going to do something I've never

done before I'm going to turn the

question around I actually would I

seriously I'm not trying to avoid

answering this but you know we've worked

on all I've worked on cuttlefish we

worked on respiration practices we

worked on uh Vision we've worked on

neuro regeneration you know I've enjoyed

um working on a great number of

different things I'm sort of curious

what people like what do you think we

need more of I've never done this but I

really want to know um I don't know how

we're going to do this in any kind of

non-chaotic format but what the hell um

it's late enough in the evening we just

do it um like really I mean so now

there's trials on psychedelics we do

this by kind of like I'll throw out some

options and then we'll do it so right

now it seems that psychedelics are a big

thing um do they increase plasticity

yeah I'm excited about it I'm a convert

but I do think that one has to be

careful and there are certain people in

populations like people who um suffer

from certain types of manic bipolar or

schizophrenia that really need to avoid

these things kids I mean being a kid is

basically being in a psychedelic State

the you know lateral connectivity of the

brain is extended ensive um and you know

I don't encourage it I mean that the

trials with MDMA and PTSD are incredible

what's happening with maps is incredible

you know 60 plus perc remission rates

done with licensed Physicians of course

I don't get Cavalier with this so okay

so I'll just ask so I

mean it's going to be hard to draw out

the denters but more work on

psychedelics psilocybin Etc as ways to

amarate depression are people like more

like yum yuck or meh is that like yum

okay or like yuck don't be afraid to say

yuck I like a good argument is anyone

like yuck on psychedelics sorcery it's

sorcery I heard that um meh okay all

right interesting okay so psychedelics

get a strong push I think we have enough

evidence that changing patterns of

respiration changes brain States but I

think that that's an interesting area um

I don't know you can you just shout it

out just shout it out one all right

first over here

yes oh God the accent you guys are so

good I love the accent listen I listen I

I don't drink I don't drink anymore but

when I used to when I used to go to bars

I'll just say the Australian accent

never fails um in the US

yeah time

Chambers time

Chambers oh hyperbaric chambers yeah

hyper that's an interesting one yeah I

mean when I think of ways to modify

physiology you think temperature light

neurom

modulators right you think by the way

anytime you want to think about changing

something in the body your brain you

think mechanical and chemical so this is

kind of this is changing the chemistry

of the brain and body through hyperbaric

chambers thank you appreciate it I think

I re did we run into each other at the

gym the other day no anyway um think I

recognize you I um the

okay one I'll get to you in one second

yeah yeah love that okay so protocols

for childhood trauma yeah so I mean I

think we're finally at the place where

we as a world where like this word

trauma actually is Meaningful like

because we knew it before but I think

before people thought if like if you

hadn't lived in a war zone which

obviously is trauma um now I think

people appreciate that trauma is

inherent to a lot of Life by the way I

love your shirt I that shirt it's like

yeah a lawn stale shirt was Against

Racism hey I love I love that shirt um

you know the history of that shirt right

it's like lawdale was co-opted by some

Neo-Nazi groups as a brand so lawdale

came out with an Against Racism and hate

shirt which is like the best like to

that which is yeah so anyway little side

note there not sponsored by lawdale um

but rad shirt yeah I think childhood

trauma you know trauma can be best

defined as an adverse event that changes

the nervous system in a way that causes

maladaptive functioning going forward

it's not every bad thing right but it

certainly happens and I think we need to

learn

to rewire the nervous system let's let's

face it whether not psychedelics or it's

talk therapy or it's hyperbaric chambers

or it's cold plunges what we're talking

about is neuroplasticity we're trying to

rewire the nervous system so I love that

one um we need some very structured um

tools there's all sorts of stuff about

soaz release for trauma and you know

there's little bits like little Sil of

things that are all very interesting

breath work you know release work but so

far there isn't like a structured

framework for for treating trauma

different groups doing different things

EMDR Etc I think they all have Merit

okay there was that shouting out cons

Consciousness The Big C yeah um in my

house Costello was the big ca he would

always remind me of that but

Consciousness I think that um and now

with AI we have to ask ourselves like

what is what is conscious

and I think we need a clear definition

of what that is do you guys know this

story of like they were going to solve

Consciousness a few years ago and and

they didn't do it there was this bet in

Neuroscience that um it was going to be

solved by 2015 or something like that so

I think we need and it's not obviously

so we need better definition of what

that means but I think it's very

important uh problem indeed so thank you

maybe

a free will yeah that's a tough one

that's one I usually avoid

um R Robert Robert slammed me on that

one on the podcast what was it in the

back I heard as an Adaptive technique

but oh yeah you know we hear I yeah we

hear so much I I'm agreeing with you the

um we hear so much about ADHD these days

without an understanding of like what it

really reflects except in the extreme

clinical cases so I think a better

understanding I did two episodes of the

podcast by the way on a attention in 88

she one focused mainly on behavioral and

nutritional tools it was positively

received by about half of people and

then the other half were like this is

garbage what about all the drugs that

are useful then I did one about all the

drugs that can be useful and people said

this is garbage you're putting kids on

meth and I'm like wait a second hold on

we try and cover it all so um because I

I favor balance I heard a excellent

things there was were all male voices we

kind of got a sampling bias here unless

I'm got a high frequency cut off thank

you something negotiation

sorry

science of

negotiation yeah so people being able to

resolve

differences

better Lord please

yes oh my goodness I mean this is yes

thank you um if ever there was a call to

action it's like um you know this is a

big question right I'm a neuroscientist

not a historian not a not a futurist or

a politician but um thank goodness can

you imagine what a terrible job I would

do I like being outdoors I hate meetings

I like dressing like this and and I and

I don't like the news um it'd be the

worst

but yeah if ever there was a need and a

question it's you know are we just going

to continue in these like iterative

cycles of like when the economy is good

things seem mostly good and then a lot

of people are still suffering and then

like these cycles of and or are we going

to finally just sit back and go okay

what are we good at as a species what

are we really bad at what are we like

kind of good at and start coming up with

some tools to try and function better on

the whole with the understanding that

there are Bad actors out there that are

constantly trying to you know exploit

and manipulate but there are also a lot

of good actors too and by good actors I

don't mean actors in the in the stage

acting sense I mean I think that um look

what we're we're we're a smart species

we can think in past present and future

terms we can look at mechanism we can

communicate better with each other

better than any species except maybe the

cuddlefish and so I think the question

is are we you know is there going to be

some sort of sitting back and finally

just saying like enough like let's just

figure out a way to dialogue and I love

that um you

know it it's a it's a science we that

there are problems and there are hard

problems um and honestly I think it's

going to come about if it comes about

it's going to come about through groups

not through individuals I don't think

we're going to get like the world leader

or world leaders of 12 people like let's

get it done let's get it done right this

time I think it's going to be a a more

Collective Consciousness you know I'd

like to see fewer individual leaders and

more groups and panels leading things

but anyway that's that's my bias and you

know

ums

genetics

genetics

genetics love

it

yeah okay well there's okay I'll say two

things and then I think my team's going

to make me close out

[Music]

wait um rad okay awesome now it's

turning into like a like a science punk

rock show so um the um genetics well I

think the big things is in genetics are

we're soon going to be in the place

where we can do genetic well right now

you can take human embryos and Screen

them for mutations by whole genome

sequencing it's very inexpensive

compared to a few years ago it's still

expensive and you can do selection you

can select out based on lack of

mutations maybe even based on over

representation of certain genes um

that's interesting has some ethical

considerations but there soon will be

you can do crisper um you could in

theory you could modify the Genome of of

adults um and certainly babies and so

that's where we're headed it's already

being done in certain countries it was

done in China um it was not looked upon

kindly by the International Ethics

committees um but it was done a mutation

in the in the HIV receptor um so those

babies exist so it's happening uh it's

going to be interesting times uh the

microbiome I think is really exciting

here's my big call to action is that

there's a microbiome in the gut but

there's also microbiome on the skin and

the nose and the mouth and the genitals

like these all these little niches and

well I guess it depends the little or

not so little niches um depends um I was

thinking about the nostrils um the

night's getting long um there I go again

um the

uh they they are all important and and

there's a lot more to understand I think

the gut microbiome is just one of the

microbiomes so and female hormones

certainly important topic it's received

far less sadly far less attention than

male hormone therapy or um understanding

and and things are starting to change

there it's been slow yeah yeah there's

been it's been can you believe it it was

like four only like eight years ago that

the National Institutes of Health in the

United States was like hey maybe you

should start studying female mice too

it's like like this I mean we're modern

science is very far behind we're very

far behind and I think it's a it's a

resource issue it's also uh you know

there's a bunch of um sociological

consider considerations in science

anyway I'm trying to change the story

there but I'm but one person and you

know I hope to live a very long time but

you know um should I get hit by a bullet

to bus or cancer um tomorrow I want you

to know that it's going to be or late

long time from now I have natural causes

sorry I have a morbid sense of humor I

work I worked with the Physicians they

all talk like that I hope to live a very

long time um but it's a collective

effort so I just want to um before we

wrap want to say a couple of things we

can get on with the rest of the night

first of all um I it is a collective

effort um you know I as I've mentioned

several times this evening I I look no

differently on the massage therapy

versus Chiropractic versus uh whole

genome sequencing it's just all

different lenses to look at the same

sort of set of goals through and yes

there's a range of quality and rigor and

communication Styles and personality but

if you can maintain some level of

curiosity and discernment about what

works for you or doesn't work for you or

where you think there's Merit um that's

great but but it's going to be um a

wonderful thing when we can all start to

dialogue and see where the points of

convergence are where we're you're

basically talking about two different

groups talking about the exact same

thing through different language I think

that's where things really can move

forward um the discourse of public

science and health communication

obviously is something I'm very

passionate about I would love to see

more podcasts believe believe it or not

not just my podcast but they more

podcasts if you have something to say to

the world please say it please put it

out there on social media I do think

that there's value there so I'm

encouraging the every person not just

usually they go the young people but

like the every people to um you know get

information out there and and to support

the efforts and I also want to say thank

you so much for coming out on a Saturday

night here in Melbourne um and for

listening to the podcast and for

yeah it really means a lot to me thank

you thank you thank you thank you thank

you so

much thank

you thank

you thank

you I re I really appreciate it that the

podcast is indeed a labor of love I feel

oh so blessed to do it and um and my

hope is that the tools protocols and

information will radiate out as far and

wide as possible I don't need or want

credit I just want people to have the

information I really mean that and to

share it where you think it can be

useful to people and last but certainly

not least thank you for your interest in

[Applause]

[Music]

science