LIVE EVENT Q&A: Dr. Andrew Huberman at the Sydney Opera House

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

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life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine recently the hubman Lab podcast

hosted a live event at the Sydney Opera

House in Australia the event was called

the brain body contract and featured a

lecture followed by a question and

answer session with the audience we

wanted to make the question and answer

session available to everyone regarding

regardless if you could attend so what

follows is the question and answer

session from the Sydney Opera House in

Australia I also would like to thank the

sponsors for the event they are eight

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possible what are the latest findings on

the physiological mechanisms behind

stress's impact on the body and brain

and what are some practical tools or

techniques for managing stress

effectively well um thank you for that

question I'll I'll um deliberately not

repeat what I said earlier about

physiological size panoramic Vision Etc

and raising stress threshold because we

covered that um already but I think that

one of the the most interesting findings

two most interesting findings in the in

the field of stress in the last five

years or even three years I think the

the work from my colleague Ali Crum at

Stanford she's been a guest on the

podcast she works on mindsets uh is the

following um result uh students Stanford

students that is come into the

laboratory they view a I think it's a

five minute movie about how awful stress

is for the mind and body all the things

it does like deplete your immune system

make you miserable uh deplete certain

aspects of the the reproductive axis and

on and on and then a separate group

comes in and watches a video also five

minutes also true about all the things

that stress can do to enhance

performance both cognitive or physical

like excess or additional energy

additional cognitive power access to

certain memory sets albeit narrow memory

sets Etc and what you find is that the

results Point directly to the fact that

whatever you believe about stress

provided the information you have is

true is what happens so if I tell you

that stress improves your memory Focus

attention one observes that if I tell

you that stress depletes your immune

system Etc one observes that so this is

something that we don't quite yet

understand as neuroscientists and the

psychology of it makes more sense

frankly than the mechanisms but it's

becoming very clear that what we believe

about a given phenomenon strongly

impacts how it shapes our response to

that so I find that very

interesting now of course you can't

delete information about stress being

bad for you so what does that mean if

you want stress to be

uh enhancing as it's called there's

literally now called the stresses

enhancing mindset that the thing you can

do is to learn more about how stress can

be enhancing we're not talking about

lying we're not talking about placebo

effect we're talking about real

knowledge based in fact that one can

absorb and I find it amazing and

wonderful that the mere learning of

something can actually change how we

respond to something at a core

physiological level the second I think

very important set of findings on stress

relate to a structure that I've talked

about recently on the podcast and I

talked about with um the one and only

David gogins most people presumably have

heard like he's on his way he running

here right now from from Central America

um yeah that guy I'll tell you that guy

is every bit as intense as he comes

across I met him for the first time in

2016 at a at a gathering in uh it was in

Silicon Valley which're just doing a

little bit of work for this company at

the end of the day he leaves for minute

and he changes into his shorts and his

shirt he's like I'm going running I got

to go to the airport I'm thinking I'm

going to go running then I'm going to go

to the airport he was running to the

airport seriously and we're like 14

miles from the airport which I realized

14 miles for a marathon are no big deal

but he's got his

bags and I'm thinking to myself this guy

he's nuts and I love him I mean he's

really he's really that guy it's it's

it's actually very refreshing you know

the the Rick you know I think one reason

we love the Rick Rubin and the the David

goggin is they truly are different but

from one basic standpoint is they just

don't give a they just do what

they're going to do and they trust that

they're doing right for them and for the

people around them and it's awesome it's

really awesome I think that it it again

brings about that you know that word

that you know doesn't come about very

often for me but you just kind of stuns

you into like behold David God

Rick rubben the Cuttlefish whatever you

know

so but I talked about this with David

there's this structure in our brain and

these are recent discoveries not by my

lab I wish I had discovered these but

actually a colleague of mine at Stanford

Joe parvey who's in the department of

neurosurgery has made these beautiful

discoveries about the anterior mid

singulate cortex the anterior mid

singulate CeX it's a structure in the

brain that has a lot of subdivisions but

when Joe put a little stimulating

electrode into this area because he had

patients that needed neurosurgery and

they probe around asking questions what

do you feel how do you feel what are you

going to do and sometimes they hit an

area I've seen these experiments they're

unbelievable stimulate an area and the

person says you know I feel like I'm

about to go into a rage they like okay

let's back off let's move over here

anterior mid singulate cortex they

stimulate and the patient the person

says I feel like I'm heading into a

storm you go oh that doesn't sound good

and they say no but I'm ready I'm

leaning in a different patient you

stimulate their anterior mid singulate

cortex and the person says I feel like

I'm going to get up out of my chair and

do something really really difficult

okay so this is interesting across

multiple people you're seeing the same

general kind of forward Center of mass

kind of response leaning into Challenge

and challenge specifically and then

there's now scores of studies in the

just the last 3 to 5 years showing that

for instance people who successfully

overcome a challenge of any kind fitness

challenge cognitive challenge interior

mid singulate cortex expands or at least

increases its Baseline levels of

activity you see people that fail to

meet that challenge less inter mid

singulate cortex activi there's a

bidirectionality of the response and on

and on and it seems that doing things

that are difficult that we don't enjoy

or that we have to push ourselves to

do grow and enhance the activity within

this anid singulate cortex and the

beauty of it is that it generalizes that

the anid singulate cortex can be applied

or the growth of it can be directed

towards lots of different things which

is I think a call for you of course

seeking pleasure seeking Comfort seeking

relaxation seeking sleep every night

seeking sunlight in the morning Etc but

also deliberately seeking out challenges

that is challenges for us the importance

of doing hard things in a safe manner

psychologically and physically safe

manner of course is truly beneficial

toward our ability to manage ourselves

in what would otherwise be called stress

so I think those the work of alium and

the work on the ENT mid singulate cortex

by parvis and a bunch of other labs I

think are the two areas where I um feel

like things are happening really quickly

we're making big strides as a field and

we're moving away from uh kind of

conjecture about how to U better

ourselves uh in lots of different ways

can you talk about time perception why

is it that in some instances time moves

very slowly while in others it seems to

move very fast thank you tonight has

been so fun thank

you I've had fun too um this is

something I'm trying to do more of not

necessarily lives but that too but um

someone recently uh who I I love and

admire very much said to me we're gonna

have so much fun and I thought whoa like

behold no one's ever said that to me no

one's ever said that to me all my years

growing up I I mean I mean I love with

with all due respect to my parents I

can't remember anyone ever turning to me

and saying we're going to have so much

fun so I'm trying that that to me just

kind of blew me away I'm think yeah like

you're allowed to have fun so time

perception is a topic that I am you know

as obsessed by as I am many other

topics um but one that is really near

and dear to my heart because I've always

been

struck by this observation that is

certainly not uniquely mine that you

know if you're sitting waiting for an

appointment at the doctor's office it

feels like time goes by really slowly

like really

slowly whereas if you have a really full

day with lots and lots of activities it

seems like time went by really fast like

oh my God I can't believe that so much

time has G

by sorry so much has happened excuse me

but not a lot of time has gone by which

means that our frame rate on life is

highly Dynamic and in fact it is and in

fact it's set by you guessed it our

visual system at least for cited folks

for people who are low vision or no

vision and by the way I I always

reference that because my laboratory has

worked on low vision no vision um issues

for a number of years it's through the

auditory system but for sake of

generalizing now and simplicity we'll

talk about the visual system so it is a

fact that when we focus on things up

close think of watchmaker think about

looking into your phone our perception

of time is more fine grain that is our

frame rate is higher okay so more frames

per second than when we view things at a

distance you might think well how could

that possibly be how could that possibly

be but it makes perfect sense you know

when we think about the time space

coding in the brain we need to Anchor

ourselves to something the rising and

setting of the sun of course the you

know I mean unless you're a flat earther

you know we're going around the

Sun now what's that no someone we got no

flat earthers One Flat earther in the

audience let okay cool um uh yeah just I

don't think that's what they were saying

but um but we need to Anchor ourselves

in time and our visual system is the way

that we anchor ourselves in time we have

facts about past present and future so

we have knowledge but at an unconscious

level we need to Anchor our frame rate

set our frame rate and so this is why if

you go down to Bondi and you lie back

and you look up at the clouds and the

clouds are kind of moving in an

unpredictable way whenever we're looking

at a landscape which has some lack of

predictable features like waves or

rustling of trees where you could

predict that if the wind's blowing this

way that the trees going to go this way

and then back again but you're not not

really in a mode of trying to anticipate

just how far in the same way that for

instance if you call an Uber you're

waiting on a text message you know if

you're ever waiting on a text message

you notice you'll F slice okay dot dot

dot when's that thing coming when's that

thing you're fine slicing time as your

level of autonomic arousal goes

up your frame rate goes up as your level

of autonomic arousal goes down so you're

sleepy or if you're viewing things that

have kind of an

unpredictable aspect to them then your

frame rate expands your the passage of

time changes or your perception of the

passage of time changes this is why one

of the reasons why I love Aquaria you

know and one of my favorite things to do

since I don't have a fish tank at home

right now but that's going to change

soon is I'll go on YouTube and there's

this beautiful live video of this

aquarium in Japan and I'll

just zone out it's like the most

relaxing thing ever and every once in a

while

a whale they have a whale shark in an

aquarium every once in a while a whale

shark will go through and you go like

whoa and then it disappears and then the

little fish and the kelp and things like

and it's immensely relaxing what it does

is it slows your frame rate down and

then I find that resets me after just

five or six minutes to go back to doing

this you know High frame rate type stuff

which is what we're doing when we're

texting when we're typing when we're

social media by the way is tuned to a

frame rate that's really interesting

that keeps us engaged just up to the

point where then we want to swipe to the

next thing it's it's the algorithms are

are designed uh and by the way I have a

somewhat benevolent semi benevolent view

of social media I think it' be used for

good I think it' be used for not good um

I think you know limiting one's time on

there is good but there's some there's

some good content on there for sure a

lot of my life is spent on there indeed

so frame rate is set by where you're

looking the further out you're looking

the larger the longer sort of time bins

your capturing bigger time bins okay

less resolution closer in and the more

you're trying to predict the next

outcome sort of fine grain analysis

predicting what we call dpos duration

path and outcome what's going to happen

for how long and what's going to happen

is something that you're thinking about

and wondering about then frame rate goes

up and there's actually a wonderful

movie um a Hitchcock movie The Name

Escapes me at the moment in which

Hitchcock understood this and it's a

movie that's only about 90 minutes it's

long but in the background the sun rises

and sets and the way that people move

through the scenes of this movie gives

you the Feeling by the end of this

90-minute movie that a full 24 hours

passed it's really interesting you feel

it in your body as if it was a much

longer movie even though if you look at

your watch that happens and now the

Cannabis smokers again are thinking like

yeah like where you sit there and you're

like whoa that was a really long time

you looking it's like three minutes went

by and you're like whoa like wow

psychedelics will do this as well um

they certainly do they distort our time

perception mainly through the deployment

of large amounts of the neuromodulator

serotonin which is intimately involved

in kind of clock perception mechanisms

there are a bunch of other things that

can set sort of in trenic rhythmicity of

our auditory system that also adjust our

frame rate I think one of the reasons

why 40 Herz tones can be valuable for

doing cognitive work is that they tend

to entrain the the certain circuits

within the brain for doing the kinds of

work that most people call work kind

where you have to type things out think

logically kind of if then kind of um

analysis very different than say writing

new sheet music or coming up with poetry

where you know here again we can think

back to the you know the Rick Rubin

thing or the you know being stationary

right you like the W we're sitting with

movement and the Brain going forward

there's something about adjusting frame

rate for capturing new ideas versus

implementing ideas implementation of

ideas to be carried out on higher frame

rate type time perception and now you

can understand why our visual perception

said about the distance of a laptop or

phone would be uh good for that or a

conversation you know remember that

whole thing of like looking at

somebody's face and having a

conversation as opposed to looking off

into the distance walking and allowing

one's gaze to go panoramic so hopefully

now you're starting to sense some themes

so that that's all I say about time

perception now but of course humans have

throughout history and still now Frank

Al um also embarked on a lot of

pharmacology If we're honest in order to

try and adjust frame rate for sake of

productivity but you know caffeine will

injust frame rate in the predictable

Direction but also things like alcohol

and and various drugs like you know

cannabis in order to adjust frame rate

I'm certainly not suggesting you do

those things I'm not a cop you do what

you want just know what you're doing can

you please talk about the jet lag

protocol you followed when arriving in

Sydney oh yeah well this one was a

little bit easier for me because

obviously it's not that far off it's

just you're a full day ahead uh from

where I live back home in California um

but nonetheless I suffered tremendously

from jet lag and once actually in 2017 I

went to Abu Dhabi a 12-hour flip from uh

where I was living at that time in the

Bay Area and I was a wreck I could

barely make it to the meeting I was

crying I was like it really messes me up

I I slept great the first night and then

just didn't sleep for two days I was a

mess so jet lag is something that I've

really had to work hard on and there are

a couple things worth noting and we've

done a whole episode about this but I'll

kind of hit a few key bullet points and

maybe it's relevant to you even if

you're not traveling at any point soon

because many people are jetlagged

without traveling because of the way

that they stay up late in fact most

everybody in the world now qualifies as

a shift worker did you know that and

here no disrespect only reverence and

gratitude to the actual shift workers

that stay up all night doing emergency

work and Hospital work and caring for

children and things like that throughout

the night so I'm not trying to take

anything away from them but we are all

shifted Enough by virtue of artificial

lighting and and uh electronic devices

that we are effectively shifted and

shift working because we're staying up

engaging our cognitive systems in ways

that frankly we didn't evolve to which

I'm not saying is bad but it's just the

reality okay what to do for jet lag the

key thing is this and actually this is

very valuable in general for sake of

sleep so this is something I haven't

talked enough about on the

podcast ask yourself what time you

normally wake up without an alarm I

realize there's some variance from dayto

day but you know for me it would be

about let's say 6:00 a.m. so let's say

for you at 7 you know just get pick your

typical wakeup time if you subtract from

that number so for me 4:

a.m. that almost with certainty is

what's called your temperature minimum

your temperature minimum we could

measure it you could put a thermometer

in your mouth or if you come to the

laboratory Unfortunately they have to do

it rectally 4:00 a.m. would be my

temperature minimum maybe for you if you

wake up at 7 typically or around 7 it's

going to be 500 a.m. okay so we're not

actually measuring your temperature in

this kind of Gunk and this thought

experiment what we're doing is we're

trying to find a time so here's what's

interesting if you expose your eyes not

your skin but your eyes to Bright Light

in the 2 hours or

so maybe 3 hours prior to that

temperature minimum time so if you wake

up at 7: a.m. 5 a.m. is your temperature

minimum so in the two hours maybe three

hours prior to that you're going to

shift your wakeup time and your toed

time what's called a phase delay a shift

in your circadian rhythm by about an

hour

interesting given that if you view

bright light in the two to three hours

after your temperature minimum you

advance your clock meaning you pull back

your clock to want to wake up a bit

earlier and go to sleep a little bit

earlier by about an hour for every time

you do that you think well okay I wake

up in the morning at 7 and let's say I'm

using you as an example or me at 6 and I

usually

try and get some sunlight in my eyes

especially on overcast days etc etc

you've heard me blab about this many

times before on the podcast and

elsewhere so how come I'm not going to

bed earlier and earlier every night and

waking up earlier and earlier every

morning and indeed you would you would

keep phase advancing your clock if you

did that except that in the afternoon if

you got sunlight in your eyes as

presumably you did today it was

beautiful sunny day on your way here you

phase delayed your clock a little bit

and as a consequence you wake up and go

to sleep at more or less the same time

every day it's an amazing mechanism and

guess what viewing sunlight in the

middle of the day does not do the same

thing it doesn't shift your circadian

clock they don't tell you that in school

but they should they're telling you like

all the other

stuff the reason it doesn't do it is

that middle of the day period is What's

called the Circadian Dead Zone sounds

very dramatic very ominous getting

sunlight in your eyes during the middle

of the day is great for mood it's

evident that it's also important if it

gets on your skin and healthy not

burning amounts uh levels that would

induce burn that it can enhance

testosterone estrogen levels Etc in

healthy ways healthy ratios nonetheless

that morning sunlight viewing after your

temperature minimum advances your clock

makes you want to get up earlier go to

bed earlier viewed before delays your

clock makes you want to get up later go

to bed later so this is very useful if

you ever want to shift your clock at

home before you Trav to get onto a new

schedule for work or school or if you're

traveling what it means is that when you

arrive in a new location like I did in

Melbourne the other day believe me I

practiced that for like at least an hour

you know and with two aies and they kept

telling me I was doing it wrong until

finally they're like no I'm just joking

with you you got it right like the

fourth time you guys have a wicked sense

of humor down

here

the I'm tougher than I look the the the

key thing is

that if you land you have to ask let's

say at 8:00 a.m. local or noon local

time the key is to ask yourself hm what

does my body

think what is my temperature minimum

back from back home so for instance if

you land at 5:00 p.m. but it corresponds

to a time before your temperature

minimum and you go outside and you're

like w W beautiful Setting

Sun I'm supposed to get sunlight in my

eyes well guess what you might delay

your clock if you want to go to bed

earlier that's probably not a good idea

whereas if you want to stay if you want

to advance your clock you would view

sunlight at a time that is corresponding

to the two hours after your temperature

minimum I realize it's a little bit

tricky but that's all you have to ask

yourself for the first three days first

three days that you travel to some

location because then you can shift very

fast so what that requires is sometimes

saying oh I don't want to shift myself

so I'm actually going to wear sunglasses

and a brimmed hat to avoid shifting

because I'd like to be on the local

schedule or in some cases you think oh I

really want to wake up here and I'm in

the perfect opportunity to wake up

because it's the middle of the afternoon

in Sydney and back home I would have

just hit my temperature minimum and so

I'm going to get sunlight in my eyes

well that's going to wake me up and it's

going to actually make me want to go to

bed a little bit earlier so I can go to

bed at local time so I'm not going to be

up until you know 3:00 a.m. so you might

have to work this out a little bit on

paper but this is the way that military

and this is the way that shift workers

who are educated in the in the

mechanisms of this stuff that's the way

they do it it also helps to eat on the

local schedule because food is another

what we call zeit Gaber another one of

the timekeepers for the circadian clock

so if you force yourself to eat on the

local schedule that can help you shift

activity can help you shift and social

rhythms can help you shift as well but

that temperature minimum and the role of

light before or after the temperature

minimum either delaying or advancing

your clock that's the heavy hammer in

this whole process so I did that and

these days I do a lot of red light time

in the evening when I want to go to

sleep and I don't mean red light panels

like the expensive stuff that has a

whole other set of uses what I'm talking

about is just getting a red light like a

party light we turn off the lights and

put in a red light and that is known to

reduce cortisol levels as opposed to

other kinds of lighting so it only takes

about half hour before you go to sleep

or so you want to mellow out you just

switch over to Red Light it's actually

very pleasant right um as long as you

can go about the activities you want to

do safely just you know get a you put a

red light up and by the way Rick's house

is like all red lights at night no

artificial lighting past Sundown guys

like a plant can you elaborate on the

science between psychedelic psilocybin

and

neuroplasticity uh yes um you know this

is a topic that just a few years ago I

was was like too frightened to talk

about um I was afraid to lose my job

frankly um

you know these are still scheduled drugs

in the United States although they are

being explored for therapeutic reasons

mainly for the treatment of uh severe

depression but among among other things

smoking sensation Eating Disorders by

the way anoria nervosa still is the the

the highest morbidity of any psychiatric

challenge it's just really tragic so you

know like there there's a real need for

treatments that work and um psychedelics

like psilocybin LSD to some extent um

MDMA which uh technically is not a

psychedelic it's an empathogen we could

talk about that also called ecstasy um

so uh these sorts of compounds are have

been explored quite extensively in the

last few years and I've completely

ramped my stance on them for for a

couple of reasons I'll just come clean

you know as as a kid um too young I I

explored these things I do not recommend

that uh I had some pretty bad

experiences on LSD as as a young

teenager

um and I don't recommend it I think the

brain is highly plastic that time in

fact being an adolescent a kid or a teen

is a psychedelic

experience you do not need psychedelics

and I don't recommend them um unless

some very qualified clinician you know

can convince you otherwise I you know

and there I would also you know seek a

second opinion but they they clearly

have their role and I think a couple of

things have changed my stance first of

all there are a lot of ferally funded

stud studies taking place at Stanford

and Elsewhere on these compounds um

second they for whatever reason and I

don't quite understand the sociology of

it but for whatever reason psychedelics

are no

longer uh associated with the kind of

counterculture the way they used to be

and are in fact heavily associated with

some of the veterans groups that are

using these for PTSD with groups in the

states groups like veteran Solutions

which are doing amazing work with

different psychedelics in including

ibigan um iboga it's a 22-hour long

psychedelic Journey I've never done it

um truly where you close your eyes and

and you get um essentially real life

like recollection of your experiences

but you have agency inside these

experiences um there's some cardiac

issues with abigan that require constant

monitoring of the of the heart but

they're they've got some really

impressive outcomes this is all worked

by my colleague Nolan Williams at

Stanford so things like psilocybin we

view a little bit differently nowadays

what is psilocybin

psilocybin if you look at it chemically

looks a lot like

serotonin a lot like serotonin and it

tickles that is it binds nearly

selectively to a specific serotonin

receptor and it seems to create more

what we call resting state lateral

connectivity which means more brain

areas connected to other brain areas or

at least talking to those brain areas

after the psilocybin Journey as it's

called as opposed to before now

these Journeys and I have done them as

an adult um I did this as part of a

clinical trial did was participated in a

psilocybin trial and I participated in

MDMA

trial um they can be terrifying while

they're happening but often there's

great Insight um from those experiences

provided the right support is provided

and it's they always say set and setting

so I'm not providing all these like

caveats about safety for for no reason

or to protect me I'm saying to protect

you I mean it it can be it was for me

absolutely terrifying and then you do it

again as part of these trials the second

time I'm like okay this time moment is

going to be good going boom terrifying

it was a horrible but I learned a lot

and there does seem to be an

anti-depressant effect I wasn't

clinically diagnosed with depression but

prior to that but or after thank

goodness

but I think what we're seeing with these

compounds and from my own experience if

I may is

that they allow us to see relationships

between events of

past and present and hopefully

anticipate certain actions and changes

into the future while experiencing the

fullness of the emotionality of those

experiences in real time so as somebody

who's done an immense amount of therapy

um I can tell you that I I find Great

Value in talk therapy I do um especially

of the I think what's called Insight

oriented psychoanalysis or or

Psychotherapy doesn't have to be classic

psychoanalysis not just support you need

that not just Rapport you need that but

insight as well is is the goal those

three things but one of the issues is

unless you get on the phone with your

therapist or you talk to them in person

in a moment where something is really

acute like it's really getting you right

at that moment sad or happy or whatever

it may

be it's hard to experience the fullness

of that issue in that moment while also

parsing it cognitively and it does seem

that the psychedelics and to some extent

MDMA allow people to get into the full

amplitude maybe even enhanced amplitude

emotionality of an experience and at the

same time allow people to reflect and

with the help of a so-called guide or

the the

therapist take notes in a way that lead

to specific actionable outcomes and I

think that's the real value you can get

realtime experience with insight and of

course you need need support as well and

of course set and setting and safety are

absolutely key so psilocybin seems to do

that in one manner MDMA does it in a

different way MDMA by the way we we know

dramatically increases serotonin and

dopamine but it seems to be the

serotonergic effect that um is

responsible for most of its therapeutic

effect by the way MDMA is methylene

dioxy methampetamine which isn't

necessarily saying that it's bad what's

actually interesting is that

MDMA ecstasy provided that it's pure and

in the appropriate dosage range does not

seem to be neurotoxic as it once was

thought to be the paper claiming that

was retracted they accidentally were

giving the subjects in that study uh

Beth amphetamine not MDMA and right yes

right and they retracted the paper but

nobody talks about that paper but do you

know it's kind of interesting do you

know where the um most of the data on

the lack of toxicity of MDMA comes from

there's a a beautiful set of studies

that were carried out on subjects who

were exclusively from the church of

latterday saints sometimes referred to

as Mormons right Mormons are an

excellent test population for a study

like that because they don't do other

drugs but MDMA is not on the no-fly list

so apparently according to these papers

and by the way I have a lot of friends

who are LDS and they're they're

wonderful people the according to the

these papers which I believe because

they're published and peer reviewed and

they still are in the literature you can

find subjects in that Community not all

of LDS are taking LDS folks are taking

actually I don't think but presumably no

but people who have taken anywhere from

one to two to 50 to over a 100 doses of

MDMA in a short period of time and aside

from a mild deficit in in attention and

the people who have taken the large

doses or frequent doses that is they

there do not seem to be many cognitive

deficits um that are detectable and

certainly no um apparent neurotoxicity

which is not to say go do MDMA as much

as you like I think there is the

potential for neurotoxicity if it's

taken too often and things of that sort

so a lot to still figure out but MDMA um

seems to have a slightly different um

trajectory of than psilocybin it tends

to be less um scary um although it it is

very sympathetic uh arousing that is so

people can get afraid or if the elevated

heart rate Etc but the empathogenic

component is really interesting because

ultimately with PTSD it's really about

developing empathy for one's self it's

really about developing empathy for

oneself and resolving one of the core

issues of trauma which is often not

discussed which is that at an

unconscious level at an unconscious

level trauma seems to be a confusion to

the nervous system about who's

responsible so that even if somebody

knows and understands hey that was them

they're the perpetrator I'm the

victim somehow the nervous system gets

confused about responsibility in a way

that leads to triggering of some of the

the negative feelings around that event

or events as the case may be and MDMA

seems to be able to intervene in that

confusion and shortcircuit that

confusion through this self-empathy

self-empathy is something that I think

um deserves more exploration in the

years to come so lots happening there in

the United States MDMA is um now being

registered with the FDA for um for

additional perhaps for legalization

right now it's it is still illegal so if

you take any of what I said tonight and

go buy MDMA I'm not at fault okay

getting in the sa about two hours before

going to sleep really improves my

quality of sleep what's going on here ah

love this this one can be pretty simple

the relationship between temperature and

sleep is a wellestablished one to fall

asleep you need to cool down by 1 to 3

degre you've probably heard me say that

before to wake up you need to heat up by

about 1 to 3 degrees and when you get

into a sauna or you take a hot bath or

even to a lesser degree you wash your

face with warm water in the evening

hands with warm water because of the way

that the body Thermo

regulates you actually end up cooling

yourself off you think no I got in the

sauna actually I've been going to the

sauna at this place here um recovery

they have a wonderful sauna coal plune

and then they have this bed where you

float on the thing have you tried this

thing this thing is so cool it's like a

water bed but it like floats you that's

amazing amazing by the way they don't

pay me to say that I'm just grateful

that they let me like sit in this bed

I've was sleeping in there as much as

possible but they shut down at night

eventually and I got to go home so the

the sauna is a great tool before sleep

or or warm shower or hot bath or warm

bath for the following reason the brain

area that controls Thermo regulation is

the medial preoptic area which is

operates like a thermostat so if you

warm the external portion of the body

the brain has to then what cool down

your core body temperature it doesn't

happen right away but it happens as you

get out of the sauna and maybe you take

a a warmish shower or cool shower so

what ends up happening is that you

warmed up which allows you to cool down

internally and then you're able to fall

asleep and stay more deeply asleep um

that's probably what's improving your

sleep in fact a kind of Mantra that I

learned from the great Matt Walker who

wrote The Great Book why we sleep and by

the way we have a sleep series with the

mighty Matt Walker coming out later this

year we recorded six episodes all every

aspect of sleep you can

imagine he says and I hope I'm getting

this right uh he says you need to warm

up to cool down to go to sleep or to

fall warm up to cool down to fall asleep

stay cool to stay asleep warm up to wake

up there you go that's a a straight bite

out of uh Matt Walker's um mouth so he

deserves that um citation not me so

that's what's happening when you get in

the sauna now when you get into the cold

plunge you're cold but guess what same

thing the surface of your body is cooler

those thermal receptors transmit

information to the medial preoptic area

of your body and your core body

temperature eventually goes up provided

you don't stay in there get hypothermic

of course okay people are always asking

me I have a good friend um who uh just

so happens to be straight edged he's

like never never even has sip of

caffeine I I don't know it's a good

thing because he's extreme and I he got

a cold plunge and he went in for a

minute and then the next day he's like I

did three minutes and then pretty soon

he's like hey Al I got a I got a sick I

was like what do you do he's like I got

naked in the cold plunge for 45 minutes

I was like well listen you know I'm like

first of all thank goodness you don't do

drugs and second of all like Easy Does

It Easy Does It that the cold cold is a

very powerful stimulus as is heat so you

know you you know minimal effective dose

you know you could have some fun with it

but don't go wild I I still don't know

why you got in there naked but who knows

if we expose ourselves to the same

stress over and over again do we release

the same amount of adrenaline and its

positive negative impact and just

becomes less receptive do we release

less adrenaline and hence it's less

harmful it's a great question depends on

the context typically you'd release less

and less adrenaline and actually this

relates to a really important fact about

the the ever famous structure of the

amydala which means almond

I don't know why I told you that the um

happens to be shaped like an almond the

amydala um people associated with threat

detection in danger but it's actually a

novelty detector essentially and it's

involved with a bunch of other brain

circuits that anytime we experience

something novel you know uh we have a

elevated level of autonomic arousal like

earlier tonight before the show there

was a kind of a

repeating and the first time I happened

I'm like fire alarm like what's going on

by the time it happened five times I was

kind of like so that's sort if we I'd be

willing to bet both amigdalas that had

we recorded from my amigdalas he got one

on each side of the brain you would find

that that the first time was a big

increase in activity lesser second third

fourth fifth and you attenuate you

habituate so if if the stressor is one

in which you don't care it doesn't have

much relevance to you like that alarm um

probably less and less adrenaline I'd be

willing to bet however if with each

subsequent exposure like somebody you

really can't stand or something like

that it's decreasing your life

satisfaction and increasing your level

of cognitive or psychological stress

then it would go in the opposite

direction I think that's that's fair to

say hey hey Andrew I like that I like

that I like hey that's cool yeah the

other day it was really interesting

every once in a while someone walk up

and be like hey listen to the podcast

which is always nice it's always nice to

meet people and this kid walks up to me

this was in Melbourne in the in the gym

like this has never happened to me

before it was really cool he just walks

up he goes hey Andrew I'm like cool like

he just said that's it and he just

walked away I was like right like I like

cool and I was like that kid is so

mellow it was really cool like I was

like we would have been friends actually

friends with all the wild ones but it

was a really interesting phenotype again

human phenotypes fascinate me so if we

run into each other on the street and I

ask your name and we talk I'm genuinely

interested I'm not studying you I'm not

taking notes or data but people are so

different but hey Andrew okay so maybe

it's

him hey Andrew hey

aie I found that I'm able to focus far

better when I bounce my legs up and down

while sitting on the balls of my feet

what's going on you got a lot of energy

that's what's going on no I think you

know um there isn't a ton of science on

this but it's very clear as I mentioned

earlier that people have different um

spontaneous movement rates and some

people people you know some people are a

little bit more jittery um if you look

if you go into a uh a classroom of young

children see them sitting around boys

and girls let's say somewhere between 4

and

6 often times you'll notice that some of

the kids can sit extremely still and

then some of the kids are like really

like and there is a chromosomal

difference there the boy it's known that

that boys have a slower

development of the so-call top down

inhibition from the forbrain that the

prefrontal cortex which frankly we hear

about over and over again many podcasts

a lot of description of prefrontal

Cortex its main job the best description

I've ever heard of it anyway is from a

friend who's a neurosurgeon at neurolink

who came up through my lab Matt

McDougall he's been on the podcast he

the the job of the prefrontal cortex is

to send connections to the rest of the

brain and

say basically to the appropriate circuit

so it's that's why people of the pre

with damage to the prefrontal cortex for

any reason or degeneration of the

prefrontal cortex find themselves doing

things or we find them doing things that

are a little bit context inappropriate

and in some cases dramatically

inappropriate but in most cases just

kind of context inappropriate they don't

suppress Behavior very well so you know

it may be that a certain level of

autonomic arousal brings us into that

optimal you know some people call it a

flow State a flow state is a little bit

of a nebulous thing I mean I have great

respect for Steven Cotler and those that

have talked about and written about flow

but what I really can just say about

flow as it relates to Neuroscience is

that like backwards that spells wolf

like we don't really know that much more

about like the neural basis of a flow

state but for each of us we have these

kind of tunnels that we like to be in um

where we find that our level of focus

and action is just right and so I I I

don't think I'm going too far out on a

limb here how you by saying that if you

if you find that you focus best when you

can dispel a little bit of that um

energy by moving your body that you're

able to do your your best work that

makes sense to me I I don't do them so

much anymore but for years I would do

you know surgeries lots and lots of

surgeries down the microscope dissecting

retinas dissecting retinas like if you

got an eyeball I can dissect it I'm good

at it um I can do them in my sleep and I

would find that if I had a little bit

too much energy that the forceps would

jiggle a little bit and it wasn't a

caffeine thing and a friend of mine

who's a worldclass neurosurgeon Eddie

Chang is chair neurosurgery at UCSF he's

been on the podcast he said ah there's a

solution to that that we learn in

neurosurgery they're like the astronauts

of medicine he said you know you tap

your foot I thought oh that's kind of

cool why would that work he said well

basically you've got some sort of

anticipatory activity in an area of the

brain called the basil ganglia which is

involved in these go noo type actions

like all of our actions are yes go and

noo don't do something else so flexor

extensor this all kind of stuff very

complicated but seamless for most most

people and when you have a bit too much

anticipatory activity you're getting

ready to go like a like a sprinter out

the blocks and you're you know you're

doing something that's very important

like a brain surgery in his case or you

know microsurgery in my case for

research purposes that if you your

activation state is too high that you

can dispel some of that energy by just

simply tapping your foot or doing some

sort of rhythmic activity with another

part of your body appropriate to that

context of course

okay last question don't

know hey Andrew yeah oh oh they skipped

that one I guess that's the new thing

I'll never forget when I got my lab for

the first time you know I came up in an

era when it was still pretty formal

Neuroscience you like you'd say hey

professor so and so and then they say

you can call me Barbara and I'm like hey

Barbara but before that no one you know

need hey or that and I'll never forget

that in my lab one my first graduate

student who's now a professor he's very

very talented scientist at the

University of Utah and I got a text from

him that just said

she called me Andy she said hey Andy

when are you going to buy us an espresso

maker it was like the second day and I

was like whoa times have changed so I

think it's good I think the lack of

formality is actually good at first I

was like wait a second I waited my whole

life to become a professor and now it's

hey Andy but I think you know W with

with the years I've realized that it's

it's actually kind of nice I'm 17 years

old congratulations man I wish I you

didn't want to know me when I well I was

a nice kid but I was just had a lot of

confusion I'm 17 years old so you're in

a psychedelic experience of Youth what

is your biggest advice on finding your

passion oh

well goodness gracious I think you you

know I if I'm honest I I think we talked

about a little bit earlier I think your

passion is rooted in a feeling

state that you've already accessed

hopefully many times but at least one

time earlier in your life when for

whatever reason or circumstances you

weren't thinking about what your parents

wanted you to do what was cool or not

cool in school you were in a pure

feeling

state

of

yum that's really

cool

behold and so I can't answer the

question for you but I'll tell you yes

continue to forage I do believe that

learning is among the most wonderful

things that we can do for ourselves but

that if you spend some time in your

memory banks that you'll be able to

remember a feeling and maybe the feeling

was about a board game you played or or

something you

observed or maybe it just came about

through some other activity and the

feeling is unrelated to the activity

that's where it gets a little tricky and

we're answering this question for a

17-year-old but it's true for all of us

this is where it gets a little trick is

that sometimes we think it's the

activity but it's not the activity I

mean Lord knows I stay out of the

Aquarius stores these days you know

because if I go near one it's all over

no it's it's that it's the it's the

Delight in something that is very

personal in fact I think is very unique

to you to the extent that and I do

believe this that it's not capable of

being created by anybody else and that

feedback from other people about what we

should do or what we're good at while it

can be

useful it's merely a calibration point

for saying like someone says maybe you

should do this and you go or like me or

like yuck those are all just calibration

points on this like Compass to take you

back to that feeling state so I

apologize for not having a more concrete

mechanistic works the first time works

every time uh kind of you know instant

tool like a physiological

sigh rather this this is going to have

to be some self- exloration but the good

news is you're 17 your brain's still

plastic the good news is all of us are

capable of neurop plasticy throughout

the lifespan and the good news is all of

us are capable of introspection

throughout the lifespan so even if you

can't remember you can sense and if you

can sense what you're doing is you're

feeling what what is this I don't want

to turn this into a neuroscience lesson

but I'd be remiss if I didn't say that

you're perceiving and feeling on the

basis of

converting physical information in your

environment sound waves

photons mechanical pressure chemicals

going in through your nose and mouth

you're converting that into electrical

and chemical signals that's what being

and perceiving it really is it can't be

anything else so there's something about

the way that you're

wired Oscar that is

different and leads you to say yum yeah

yeah yeah yeah that that that and for me

I've always associated with a certain

physical sensation in this arm don't ask

me why I don't even know and if you can

sense into what it is that gets you

going in that direction if any and all

of us do that then I really believe you

can sense into your unique gifts or

maybe you just need to sit back and

think in deliberate complete sentences

for an hour like Rick or one of those

other Geniuses I don't have a better

answer that's the best I can do thanks

so much

yeah thank you than you so

much thank you thanks so

much thank you thank you thank you so

much so just as a as a final um note

this evening I just want to thank

everyone for coming out as Rob mentioned

to you know come out as far as I know

there's no alcohol here people are here

amazing um an event with no alcohol on a

Saturday night in this beautiful Sydney

summer and where we talk science um

thanks for letting me tell some stories

learn some stories my my real wish my

deep wish is that everyone do some level

of introspection if not tonight in going

forward and um I so appreciate that

people are interested in the concepts

around science and health and and the

the real big big Wish For Me Maybe I'll

even just call it an ask is that I truly

don't develop the protocols I I I mind

them occasionally I develop them but I

mine them from the the rich sources of

you know information in papers and and

elsewhere and um put them into a format

that I'm I'm deeply appreciative people

uh enjoy digesting and hopefully apply

but hopefully share and I certainly

don't need attribution none of them are

named after me intentionally because um

that's not going to give any information

about what they do or how they work and

last but certainly not least thank you

for your interest in

science thank you to the Sydney Opera

House trust for their hospitality and

for making this event possible and last

but certainly not least thank you for

your interest in science

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