Dr. Paul Conti: How to Build and Maintain Healthy Relationships | Huberman Lab Guest Series

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Andrew Huberman: [Music Playing] Welcome to the Huberman Lab

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Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science

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based tools for everyday life.

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I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a Professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology

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at Stanford School of Medicine.

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Today marks the third episode in our four episode series

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about mental health with Dr.

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Paul Conti.

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Today's episode deals with the topic of healthy relationships, how to

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define what a healthy relationship is, and how to achieve healthy

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relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, interpersonal

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relationships at work, friendships with family, and of course, with oneself.

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This episode builds on the framework of the psychology of self and mental

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health that was established in the first and second episodes of this series.

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However, even if you didn't listen to the first or second episode in this

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series, today's episode will still contain a lot of information and

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protocols that you will find valuable for improving your relationships.

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That said, if you have the opportunity to listen to the first and second episodes in

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this series, I think you'll find those to be tremendously beneficial at any point.

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During today's episode, Dr.

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Conti discusses what makes for a successful relationship of

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any kind, as well as tools to improve those relationships.

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He discusses various types of bonds, including healthy bonds and trauma

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bonds, not just in the context of romantic relationship, but in the

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context of all types of relationships.

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We also discuss different challenges that people face in relationships,

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including abusive relationships, and we discuss the role of power dynamics,

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anxiety, and boundaries in relationships, both from the perspective of unhealthy

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relationships, but more importantly from the understanding and protocols

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to cultivate healthy relationships.

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While there is an abundance of opinions and information out there on the Internet

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these days about relationships both healthy and unhealthy, today's discussion

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approaches the topic of relationships through an entirely different lens, which

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is the lens of the self in terms of one's conscious and subconscious mind, and how

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multiple conscious and subconscious minds through different individuals, interact

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with one another in ways that we can see and ways that we can't see, and all of

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that framed within the actionable steps that any of us can take to improve our

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relationship to ourself and to others.

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Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my

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teaching and research roles at Stanford.

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It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer

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information about science and science related tools to the general public.

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In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

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Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.

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BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed

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therapist, carried out all online.

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I've been doing therapy for more than 30 years.

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While I confess that initially I was forced to do that therapy as a condition

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for being let back into high school, over time I learned that therapy is

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a tremendously valuable practice.

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In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy just as important

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as doing regular physical exercise in order to improve one's health.

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The beauty of BetterHelp is that it makes it extremely easy to find a

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therapist that's excellent for you.

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And we can define an excellent therapist as somebody who's going to

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give you a lot of support, but in an objective way as well as somebody with

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whom you can have excellent rapport, a nd that can help you arrive at

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positively transformative insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

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And with BetterHelp, they make it convenient so that it's

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matched to your schedule and the other aspects of your life.

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If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman,

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to get 10% off your first month.

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Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

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Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.

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In fact, the science around Yoga Nidra is really impressive, showing that after a

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Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides

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So for those of you that have not meditated before or getting back to a

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If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman

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and access a free 30 day trial.

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Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.

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And now for my discussion about mental health with Dr.

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Paul Conti.

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Dr.

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Conti, welcome back.

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Paul Conti: Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Andrew Huberman: Today we're going to discuss relationships, and that will

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often focus on romantic relationships, but also relationships between friends,

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between family members, and inevitably, the relationship to self, which is what

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we really focused on in episodes one and two of this series, episode one

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being all the things that go into a healthy self and how to understand what

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is unhealthy and healthy in all of us and make adjustments to the unhealthy

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aspects of our unconscious and conscious through really specific proactive

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behaviors and patterns of thought.

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So really a roadmap to these ideals that we call mental health

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and understanding of the self.

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Today we want to talk about relationships from the perspective

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of, of course, how people relate.

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But I have a feeling it's going to have something to do with, or perhaps almost

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everything to do with our relationship, to understanding ourselves first.

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Paul Conti: Yes.

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Andrew Huberman: So, just to make sure that we're all on the same page,

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regardless of whether or not people have seen episodes one and two, and

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certainly people do not need to have seen or listened to episodes one and two

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of this series in order to understand today's discussion, could you please

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tell us what is a healthy person?

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And how can we ask ourselves the sorts of questions that allow us to determine

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whether or not we are healthy and where to look in terms of making adjustments

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if we want to be healthier than we already are, which I have to believe

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almost everybody, if not everybody, certainly wants to be the healthiest

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and best expression of themselves so that they can do the most for

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themselves and for others in the world?

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Paul Conti: So, the linchpin of it all, is the agency and gratitude as verbs.

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That's the top of the mountain.

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There's a lot of climbing we do to get to the top of the mountain.

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Once we're over the top of the mountain, then things are in a better place.

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And even though there are two words, agency is, of course, a word, g

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ratitude is a word, b ut it doesn't mean that they're separate concepts.

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Approaching the world through the lens of agency and gratitude, thought of as

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one thing because they come together and they come together as verbs.

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That's what we're aiming for, because that's the thing that we can work towards.

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If you think about what comes underneath that, it takes us back to

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the two pillars and the 10 cupboards.

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And if we're looking in there enough, we're mInding, like what is in my

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unconscious mind I might not be aware of.

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Let me generate some curiosity about my defense mechanisms and

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my character structure and think about what's salient inside of me.

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If we're doing all of that, then what we're doing, we're building

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empowerment, we're building humility.

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And then ultimately, the expression of all of that is the agency and

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gratitude, and it's something that we can't have enough of.

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Like I say, what's the best amount of that?

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The most that's possible, right?

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Because we're going to engage in the world in the healthiest way.

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Because agency and gratitude doesn't mean like, we're happy about everything, right?

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If there's something negative and we can change that, then

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we don't feel happy about that.

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The sense of gratitude in me makes me more likely to feel

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that I can change that, right?

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Or to take the chance of trying to change that.

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And then the agency part of that concept can come more to the

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fore and I can make the change.

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So it's not about bliss, it's not about forgiving self and others

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for all sorts of things and not working to make things better.

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It's about being in the world and being as aware as I can possibly

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be, including being aware that there are things I'm not aware of.

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So sort of having a healthy respect and an orientation to the world that values truth

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and values understanding and exploration.

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If we do all of that, then we reach the top of the mountain

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through the agency and gratitude.

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And then what builds upon that or what comes from that is the peace,

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the contentment, the delight, the generative drive being strengthened

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like that all comes together.

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And then the aggressive, or we say aggressive because that's

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the traditional term, b ut the aggressive or the assertive.

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The assertiveness or assertion drive, however, whatever word we want to put

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to that, that drive exists in us in a way that subserves the generative drive.

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The same thing with the pleasure drive in us.

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It exists in us, but it's subserving the generative drive.

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And then all those good things come together and they come together

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to help us be as healthy as we can and to stay healthy, including when

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tribulation or difficulties come our way, so that we stay as best we can

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in the agency and gratitude as verbs.

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And again, there's nothing theoretical about this.

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It's a way to live, and there are a lot of people who live some of their lives,

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or parts of their lives through that.

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And we can aspire to it and we can work towards it, and if we're the best that

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we can be, then we're going to be in our relationships the best we can be.

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Think about it, like, you and I have a relationship, we know each

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other, w e're working together.

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If I can bring my best self to you, to thinking about you, to

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understanding you, if I can bring the agency and the gratitude,

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then I'm going to do right by you.

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I'm going to mentalize this idea of thinking about what's

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going on inside of you.

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I'm going to bring the best o f all of that.

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And then, because we have a relationship, t here's also an "us."

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There's a me, there's a you, there's something that happens between us.

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That's the relationship, that's the "us."

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And I will also bring my best self to that thing that is no longer just

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me or just you, but that is an us.

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And that applies to all relationships.

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You can apply that to seeking health in every single relationship in our lives.

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Andrew Huberman: What you're saying really speaks to the importance of

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people taking a real look at themselves, which is not necessarily an inventory

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of self in the typical sense that we're used to hearing it, but rather through

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this lens or map of the self that was spelled out in episodes one and two.

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And again, for those that are just joining the series now, the

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map, as we're referring to it, is available as a downloadable

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PDF in the show note captions.

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If people want to get that, it's completely zero cost.

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You can just go there and access it, or just view it on a screen,

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print it out, whatever you like.

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You certainly don't need to do that, because here again, we're talking about

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the core elements of that map, which, if I understand correctly, arrive

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eventually at a set of verb states that we're calling agency and gratitude.

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Those are not separate, as you pointed out, they work together.

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Paul Conti: You described it as on top of the geyser, r ight?

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And I really like that there's a lot of things going on, but then

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it all uplifts to something, right?

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And if we're doing it in the right way, in the diligent way, then i t is like

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a geyser, a nd what it's lifting up on top of it is the agency and gratitude.

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I love that you put those words to i t, and I think it

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captures it really profoundly.

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Andrew Huberman: Well, the stuff that geysers up perhaps deserves a bit of

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our attention just for a few moments.

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You describe these two pillars that I described as geysering up

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into agency and gratitude in the best circumstances, but in the best

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circumstances, we want to remind ourselves and everybody, are attainable

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by looking at what's in those pillars.

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Those two pillars are the structure of self.

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So really understanding something about the structure of self.

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So that includes some understanding of the unconscious mind, some understanding

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of the conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure and self.

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That was all reviewed and described in episodes one and two, as well

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as the functions of self, which are more of the verb states, the

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expressions of the structure of self.

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Self-awareness being the first of those defense mechanisms in action.

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And here I'd be remiss if I didn't tell myself and everybody else again that

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defense mechanisms are not always bad.

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There can be healthy defense mechanisms.

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Paul Conti: Absolutely.

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Andrew Huberman: They can protect us in very valuable ways.

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And then this notion of salience, what we pay attention to, what

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sorts of scripts are going on in our head about ourselves and others,

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what are we paying attention to?

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How are we interpreting those in our head and to others, and then most

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importantly, perhaps to ourselves?

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And then our actual behaviors, like what we are doing from the time we wake up

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until the time we go to sleep at night, and then our strivings, our sense of

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hopefulness, or perhaps lack of strivings.

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And there I am reminded also that nobody does all of these

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things perfectly all the time.

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We all have elements within us that perhaps are not serving to geyser up

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into agency and gratitude as well as they could, but that all of us have the

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capacity to look at these two pillars and these 10 things that were just listed

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off, as you describe them, as cupboards that we look into and examine and think

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about, and that if we can do that with a skilled clinician like yourself or another

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psychiatrist or psychologist, terrific.

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But even if we don't have access to that, we can examine within

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us what is and is not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude.

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Paul Conti: We can bring any issue of self to those two pillars and

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the 10 cupboards within them.

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Any issue of self.

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Why?

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Because that's what it is, in the s ense that it is the "us."

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What's inside of me.

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I have an unconscious mind, I have a conscious mind, I have a defensive s

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tructure, I have a character structure, I h ave a self, that's what it is.

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And all the functions that you mentioned, they're all going on

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within that structure of self.

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They're manifesting themselves.

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That's what it is w hen we're being, in the active way of the verb being.

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That's what it is, which is why w e can bring to it any issue

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of self, even though, of course, there's tremendous complexity there.

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The million things that go on in a second underneath the surface in the

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unconscious mind and our defensive structures and how to see them.

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But we're human beings.

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We're complicated, right?

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That's okay, because we have methods of understanding, we have methods

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of inquiry, and we can use those methods to make things better.

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And that's how we make the geyser as strong as it can be.

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Where maybe some of the water is running countercurrent in the...

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okay, well, let's try and have things go all in the same direction.

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But we don't need things to be perfect for the geyser to spring up and the agency

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and gratitude to then be uplifted upon it.

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Andrew Huberman: So everybody has one of these maps, as I understand

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it, and therefore anytime we're talking about relationships, romantic

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relationships or otherwise, we're talking about the intersection or

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overlap of those maps in some way, maybe even the synergy and the outgrowth

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of those maps becomes its own map.

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I think we'll get to this a little bit later.

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Paul Conti: Yes.

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Andrew Huberman: When I and most people hear the word relationships, in

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particular romantic relationships, I make a couple of automatic assumptions.

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First of all, I have to assume that people are either in a

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relationship or out of a relationship.

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There's probably a third category out there of plurals and other things,

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but we'll keep it relatively simple.

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And most people, I assume, when they search for or enter, or entered a

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relationship, they thought about whether or not they had resonance with the

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person, whether or not there was an intellectual or mutual interest resonance

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or a physical resonance, maybe something about family history, common goals, etc.

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That's typically what people think about.

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And then perhaps if people will have a bit more of a psychological understanding, or

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they're reading some pop psychology books these days, some of which are pretty good,

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they might understand something about themselves or the other person being a

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bit more anxious or a bit more relaxed.

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So you'll hear things like anxious, attached, secure,

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attached, things of that sort.

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If we could just step back from all of that for a moment and examine it

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through the lens of the maps as you're describing them, which exist in all of us.

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And that really are the map to being the best version of ourselves.

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If we look at relationships in terms of lists of where people went to

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school, if they went to school, are their parents married or divorced?

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Do they have trauma that they're aware of or not aware of these kinds of things, I

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guess we could call those, and here I'm borrowing language that you used earlier

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off-camera, so I want to acknowledge that.

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Points of compatibility, I think that seems like a

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reasonable place to start, right?

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Do people want the same thing?

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So if you could, could you talk a little bit about points of compatibility

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in a relationship and how those show up, for better or for worse?

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When you encounter people in the clinical setting, when you see somebody who's in

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a relationship that's really working for them and is healthy versus if they're in a

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relationship where it's really unhealthy, presumably there's some knowledge about

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points of compatibility, but I'm guessing that's not always intuitive, right?

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Paul Conti: I think the place we start there is acknowledging what

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we can know and what we can't know.

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So this idea that there are levels o f emergence where things at a lower

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level come together and create something that's new, we see this throughout

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science, from subatomic particles all the way through to culture.

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So someone could know theoretically, lots and lots and lots about you

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and lots and lots and lots about me, but they don't know about us, right?

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They don't know how we interact.

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They don't know if we have shared interests, what we talk about.

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They don't know that.

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No one knows that.

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We don't know that about the combination of people.

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We can't know it in advance, but we often believe that we can, which

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then leads to a lot of false metrics of trying to figure things out.

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So when we're looking for compatibility, the thought will be just very basic,

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tangible things, like in romance, for example, if there's someone who

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absolutely wants to have a family and there's someone who absolutely

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does not want to have a family, okay, that would be a reason for those two

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people to not choose one another.

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So there are these factors, but the factors are all, in a sense,

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very evident and very concrete.

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If we go beyond that, we say, okay, we can see the obvious.

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Then what we're looking for is really a compatibility of generative drives.

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And then that tells you, can these people then get along?

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Maybe one of them is from one s ide of the world and the other i s from the

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other side of the world, or one's an accountant and the other is a musician.

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And it doesn't mean that they're built not to get along or that if they're doing the

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same thing they're built to get along, or if they went to college in the same place,

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or they went to college versus not going to college, there's so much there that we

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try to build a story on, and then what we do is we miss the forest for the trees.

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And the trees, I think, are the factors that don't matter.

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So again, let's think about the factors that do matter.

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Person wants to have a family, the other person doesn't.

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That's relevant.

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But the trees that mislead us might be, do they have the same level of education?

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Do they have the same family structure growing up?

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Are parents still together?

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What do they enjoy?

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Are they creative or scientific or whatever?

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Or creatively scientific.

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We could look at all of that, but I think then we're making a

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bunch of trees that mislead us.

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If you say, look, do these people come at the world through how much agency

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and gratitude is there guiding them?

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How high is the top of that geyser? How high is it uplifting that?

Time: 1263.415

How strong is the generative drive?

Time: 1265.385

If we match people upon that, then we see, oh, those people got

Time: 1268.855

along and those people didn't.

Time: 1270.034

And then there are all the other factors, like pheromones, a nd things that we can't

Time: 1273.965

understand or reflexive first impressions.

Time: 1276.375

We could let things develop, honoring the truth of what we can't know.

Time: 1281.295

That when you put two people together, you get something that's

Time: 1284.465

different from the sum of both people.

Time: 1288.425

It's not an overlap of maps, i t's a new map, a nd the map is informed by

Time: 1293.545

things that are on each individual's map.

Time: 1296.184

But what we're looking for are maps that don't have very significant differences

Time: 1304.414

around just clear, concrete things.

Time: 1307.635

But once we get beyond that, the maps can synergize in all sorts of beautiful and

Time: 1313.075

unpredictable ways, and if both are coming from the perspective of a generative

Time: 1319.855

drive that is at the forefront, great.

Time: 1322.605

You put those maps together and see what happens.

Time: 1324.985

Maybe nothing happens.

Time: 1326.065

Okay.

Time: 1326.365

Those people don't go out on a second date.

Time: 1328.505

Maybe something happens, but it doesn't develop in certain ways.

Time: 1331.335

Okay, those people dated and stopped dating.

Time: 1333.085

Like, this happens all the time, r ight?

Time: 1334.895

But we set the odds in our favor that the generative drive in each that is

Time: 1339.835

at the forefront means that their maps can synergize in ways that can then be

Time: 1344.125

beautiful and ways that can maybe bring to both people that which they want.

Time: 1349.825

And I think there's a simplicity to that, that I think if we honor

Time: 1355.615

it can be very, very helpful.

Time: 1357.525

Whether it's romance, it's friendships, of looking at what the truth of it

Time: 1361.065

is instead of the factors that we try and gain a false sense of security

Time: 1365.895

if we're using them to select upon.

Time: 1368.684

Andrew Huberman: You mentioned several times the generative drive, and I

Time: 1372.465

definitely would like to learn more about that and spend some time there

Time: 1376.035

in the context of relationships.

Time: 1378.414

But just to drill a little bit further into what we've all heard

Time: 1381.755

so often, and you touched upon a few of these themes around points of

Time: 1386.475

compatibility, but also where sometimes we can respond to the wrong things

Time: 1393.905

when thinking about compatibility.

Time: 1395.355

Again, we're framing this mainly in the context of hypothetical

Time: 1398.925

romantic relationships, but certainly it pertains to other sorts of

Time: 1402.585

relationships, things like, is one person educated with an advanced

Time: 1409.397

degree, and is the other person also?

Time: 1411.165

We tend to assume that people who are, are somehow a better

Time: 1414.735

match than people who aren't.

Time: 1415.915

That's sort of an implicit assumption that's often made, not always.

Time: 1419.914

Or that if two people really love music, that they will enjoy music together,

Time: 1425.605

and therefore the sum of the whole is greater than either of its parts.

Time: 1429.995

Paul Conti: And I think those things are utterly irrelevant.

Time: 1432.655

Andrew Huberman: Interesting, and I want to hear more about this because I think

Time: 1435.034

that if you think about, which I'm sure you don't, but, like dating apps, for

Time: 1439.695

instance, like what's listed out there or first or second dates, which consists

Time: 1445.515

of learning a little bit about somebody and what they're doing and maybe even a

Time: 1448.655

little bit about their history and maybe an activity and certainly an intentional

Time: 1455.275

awareness to how the other person is behaving in the context of different

Time: 1458.415

things, like a waiter or a waitress and how they're treating people, and you.

Time: 1462.805

And then you hear about things like...

Time: 1464.825

this is not something I'm familiar with...

Time: 1468.125

oh, right, the love languages.

Time: 1470.795

People are like, oh, what's their love language?

Time: 1473.135

It's like gifts or, like acts of physical touch or acts of service or something.

Time: 1480.355

I met someone recently, and she told me my love language is all of them, which I

Time: 1485.615

think is the most honest answer, right?

Time: 1487.365

Because, sure, there's probably some weighting around what people value

Time: 1490.055

more or less, and in the absence of the things they value the most,

Time: 1493.645

it would probably feel a bit like deprivation in any relationship.

Time: 1497.325

But as I'm describing all this, I'm realizing more and

Time: 1500.345

more, yes, all of that matters.

Time: 1503.465

Anxious, attached, secure, attached, love languages, etc.

Time: 1506.815

But it really doesn't get to the heart of the matter.

Time: 1509.985

It really doesn't get to this, as you're describing it, this generative

Time: 1513.905

drive in individuals, and whether or not those match up well along

Time: 1518.145

the points of compatibility with the other person's generative drive.

Time: 1521.565

And I haven't run a controlled study for this, but the best evidence I have

Time: 1525.435

is that there, fortunately, are many people out there who are in happy,

Time: 1530.145

healthy relationships, but there are many, many people who are not,

Time: 1535.575

either because they can't find them, or they're in them and they're not

Time: 1538.345

healthy, or they're not happy, etc.

Time: 1541.284

So if you could elaborate a bit more on the generative drive, again

Time: 1545.555

reminding us what the nature of that is.

Time: 1547.445

We covered this a bit in episodes one and two, but what the nature

Time: 1550.515

of that is and some different ways that that's expressed and how that

Time: 1556.515

shows up in healthy relationship.

Time: 1559.795

Paul Conti: Yeah, I think we really disprove the idea that some of

Time: 1565.874

these factors that I think are superficial in the context o f whether

Time: 1569.575

people are going to be compatible.

Time: 1570.745

They're not superficial things, but they're not germane.

Time: 1573.005

So let's say you think about music, and say two people are contemplating

Time: 1578.415

romance, and they both really like music.

Time: 1583.034

W ell, that could go very, very well.

Time: 1585.045

Let's say they both have a strong generative drive.

Time: 1588.545

Those pillars are pretty healthy, and the geyser of the agency and

Time: 1593.075

gratitude is riding upon it, and they can find peace in themselves.

Time: 1598.065

They're strongly generative, then they could become interested in

Time: 1602.284

the music the other person likes.

Time: 1603.785

There's not going to be a complete overlap.

Time: 1606.955

Even if people generally like the same thing.

Time: 1609.735

But let's say they like different things, like just liking music, or even liking

Time: 1613.055

the same music, there's still difference.

Time: 1615.905

So the person has to go beyond themselves, and say, okay, I'm interested in what you

Time: 1621.155

think, even about the music we both like.

Time: 1623.155

What factors do you like?

Time: 1624.585

There are places of learning and of growth for both.

Time: 1628.615

And you could see how both liking music, whether it's the same or different

Time: 1631.875

music, that sounds great, right?

Time: 1633.645

But you could also see how that could not be great.

Time: 1637.295

If the generative drive is too low and the aggression drive is too

Time: 1641.025

high, then I'm going to think, I like music, my music is better than yours.

Time: 1647.265

People then start, they'll fragment, even though they have the same interest.

Time: 1652.265

Or if the pleasure drive is too high, then they think, I want to listen to

Time: 1655.165

my music, not yours, I'm familiar with it, instead of, hey, I'm interested in

Time: 1659.665

that music because you're interested in it, and I'm interested in you.

Time: 1665.095

Which leads us to the second part.

Time: 1666.695

Let's say you have someone who really has no interest in music and someone who does.

Time: 1670.784

Well, there can be an openness of saying, if I'm interested in this person and

Time: 1675.254

this person is really interested in music, I have some interest in it, right?

Time: 1679.845

I want to learn something about it.

Time: 1681.015

I want to experience some of it with the other person.

Time: 1684.194

And let's say that person then finds, hey, that's not my thing.

Time: 1686.655

It's not the thing we connect on, then, why would that be

Time: 1689.075

the end o f the world, right?

Time: 1689.905

P lenty of people, one person goes to concerts, the other doesn't.

Time: 1692.765

So we try to find these points of commonality, because I think we

Time: 1698.155

get over reductionist, and then we think, oh, here's a bunch of

Time: 1700.815

factors that we will identify.

Time: 1702.965

And what they do is they obscure us from the primary factor, which is the

Time: 1709.264

generative drive, which, of course, will then induce open mindedness mentalization.

Time: 1713.395

If I don't like music and you do, instead of saying, what do you like music for?

Time: 1719.045

I need a friendship with somebody who likes music.

Time: 1720.595

You think, hey, that's interesting.

Time: 1723.414

If I'm interested in you as a friend and I have respect for you and what you

Time: 1726.374

think, then why would I not have some interest in what you're interested in?

Time: 1731.095

So this idea of compatibility revolves around the health in each person.

Time: 1736.744

It doesn't revolve around factors that are anything but the concrete

Time: 1742.095

logistical factors that would just keep two people apart.

Time: 1746.335

Andrew Huberman: I love the idea that healthy relationships center around the

Time: 1749.665

factors that really matter within the self, in particular the generative drive.

Time: 1755.124

And I love the example of someone being able to be curious about somebody's

Time: 1761.185

interests, about their partner's interests, even though they might

Time: 1763.774

not share those from the standpoint of agency and gratitude, because the

Time: 1769.615

agency component there is really key.

Time: 1771.395

I think that a lot of people feel as if they aren't really good at

Time: 1774.705

something or really knowledgeable about something, then it's not for them.

Time: 1780.405

Which is the opposite of having agency and gratitude.

Time: 1783.515

Because gratitude is closely tied to humility.

Time: 1787.185

How could we know everything?

Time: 1788.375

It can be good, certain things, and not others.

Time: 1790.555

So the way you describe it includes aspects of openness, of humility, but

Time: 1796.235

also the agency side, the empowerment.

Time: 1797.975

Like, if I'm going to learn more, then perhaps we could

Time: 1801.045

enjoy more of that together.

Time: 1802.955

Perhaps not, right?

Time: 1804.015

I think this is what I'm sensing, and I'm also sensing that the words like-minded,

Time: 1810.045

like-minded people has so much more to do with their generative drives and how those

Time: 1816.165

match up as opposed to the activities that they prefer engaging in and the sorts

Time: 1821.655

of foods they like or the movies they like, which makes sense at some level.

Time: 1827.435

But I think it is still counterintuitive for a lot of us who just kind of

Time: 1832.225

reflexively think, oh, they like the same things, or maybe even they met at work

Time: 1836.505

because they like the same type of work.

Time: 1839.245

They like to live in a certain area of the country, and

Time: 1840.895

therefore, by proximity, they met.

Time: 1843.275

And this raises all sorts of interesting ideas, perhaps, about

Time: 1847.845

the statistics of what we see.

Time: 1849.905

Like two musicians together, we therefore assume that musicians belong

Time: 1855.415

together or two scientists together.

Time: 1857.425

I know loads of scientist-scientist couples or scientist-physician

Time: 1861.155

couples, but of course, the numbers are skewed because they were working

Time: 1865.195

in environments where it increased the probability they would interact.

Time: 1868.454

So this is actually a vote for online dating in some sense, because it breaks

Time: 1871.844

through all those, sometimes even geographical barriers, but certainly

Time: 1875.525

the traditional barriers of culture.

Time: 1878.255

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 1879.095

And if you think about it, we're talking about relationships, so

Time: 1882.555

I would like my relationships to last as long as possible, right?

Time: 1886.664

That means now we're talking about my lifespan and my health span.

Time: 1890.495

That then becomes part of that discussion.

Time: 1893.485

And of course, we're very interested in lifespan and health span.

Time: 1896.455

And we see people do much, much better when they're interconnected

Time: 1901.275

in the world around them, when they're still learning new things.

Time: 1904.664

We know that's true, that people often will tail, they sort of trail off of what

Time: 1909.655

they're learning, whether it's music, it's literature, it's the world around

Time: 1913.145

us relatively early in our lifespan.

Time: 1916.175

But the person who's interconnected learning new things has a much

Time: 1921.535

greater probability of living longer and living healthier.

Time: 1925.745

Right?

Time: 1926.315

So think, what's that about?

Time: 1927.675

It's about a generative drive.

Time: 1929.665

It's about, you know what, I've learned a lot of things over the course of my

Time: 1932.855

life, and I'm 80 years old now, and great, that there's more to learn, right?

Time: 1937.335

And that's what you see.

Time: 1938.705

It makes me think of a woman who's around 90 years old in my practice.

Time: 1943.194

She's always learning new things, she's super interested in things and I'm always

Time: 1947.485

struck by how she seems so much younger.

Time: 1951.145

And there, that's not just a selection bias, like, oh, I just happen to

Time: 1954.565

see that in that person, she has the factors that predispose to aging in

Time: 1959.855

the way that's healthiest and happiest.

Time: 1962.255

So it really comes down to, the root of all of it, in ourselves, in our

Time: 1966.635

relationships, in the quality of them over time and how long we get to have them

Time: 1971.295

really arises from a generative drive.

Time: 1974.225

And that's the thing that makes us then undefended, and lets us find

Time: 1979.434

interest in things about other people that are different from the things in

Time: 1984.215

us, which also comes about naturally.

Time: 1986.825

I think it's interesting that we have this sort of bias, like I said,

Time: 1989.429

that musicians belong together.

Time: 1991.244

Well, why?

Time: 1991.624

They're familiar with the same things, right.

Time: 1993.585

I guess they have the same interest, same thing with scientists.

Time: 1996.635

But then a lot of people like different foods, right?

Time: 2000.115

I love different ethnic foods.

Time: 2001.725

Why? Because it's different, right?

Time: 2004.045

It's an appreciation of difference.

Time: 2005.795

I don't want to eat just like I did growing up and many, many,

Time: 2008.655

many people are like that.

Time: 2010.145

That's an appreciation of difference, of diversity.

Time: 2012.755

So sometimes we'll kind of harness that and we'll look at it and we'll say, oh,

Time: 2016.645

that's present in us, but for whatever reason we become very reductionist

Time: 2021.075

about relationships and now we're trying to match based upon sameness,

Time: 2027.635

and sameness is not the point of it.

Time: 2030.834

I mean there are even thoughts about people then in some way

Time: 2033.545

seeking difference, and maybe pheromones are telling us that.

Time: 2036.365

I actually know very little about that, but I certainly know that

Time: 2040.515

striving for sameness doesn't make good things happen in relationships.

Time: 2045.595

I've been doing this for over 20 years and I don't see that the

Time: 2049.514

alleged factors of sameness matter again unless they're so concrete.

Time: 2053.764

Like if this person is absolutely going to live in North America and that person is

Time: 2057.145

absolutely going to live in South America, let's not potentially put them together.

Time: 2061.195

But once we get away from almost that level of concreteness, let's look

Time: 2065.735

for something different, and then like everything else, it simplifies.

Time: 2071.175

The higher we go up the ladder, the more simple things get.

Time: 2075.635

If you're looking at the pillars, structure of self, function of

Time: 2078.264

self, you're creating the agency and gratitude, then what are you looking

Time: 2081.855

for when you're looking for a partner...

Time: 2083.835

a match in generative drive.

Time: 2086.325

I want mine to be strong and I see that it's strong in this person.

Time: 2089.525

They create in a way, you know what, I do science, they grow a garden.

Time: 2093.755

We're generative together.

Time: 2095.215

Like that could be super compatible because we're looking at the

Time: 2097.935

one factor that really matters.

Time: 2100.105

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge

Time: 2101.744

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Now, of course, it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods,

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but most people, including myself, find it hard to get enough servings

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I'm realizing that most of what I and everyone else has heard about

Time: 2190.284

relationships is complete nonsense.

Time: 2193.725

I really mean that.

Time: 2194.644

I mean, it has occurred to me before because I've experienced both that

Time: 2199.565

the phrases 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' and 'out of

Time: 2204.615

sight, out of mind,' are in direct contradiction with one another.

Time: 2208.215

So they're both true, it depends on the circumstances and who

Time: 2211.404

the hell knows why, right?

Time: 2213.434

You also hear opposites attract, but they don't stay together.

Time: 2218.205

The important thing is to find someone similar to you or that

Time: 2221.645

there's like one person that's right?

Time: 2223.744

I mean, these are, if we really think about it, crazy notions--

Time: 2229.005

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 2229.624

Andrew Huberman: --but they drive a lot of what people think

Time: 2232.485

about relationships, right?

Time: 2233.825

Paul Conti: They drive angst.

Time: 2234.915

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Time: 2235.245

Paul Conti: They drive bad choices.

Time: 2236.745

They drive situations that then create a sense of guilt and shame and inadequacy.

Time: 2241.835

We mislead ourselves by not going to the basics of what is actually true.

Time: 2247.045

Let me look at myself, make myself as healthy as I can be, right?

Time: 2250.655

Because if I'm healthy, I'll recognize a lack of health in the other, s o it also

Time: 2254.905

protects us against bad relationships.

Time: 2257.245

And then if I'm going to make myself healthy, which we're describing, how

Time: 2260.195

that looks, wouldn't I want someone who also wants to make themselves healthier?

Time: 2264.415

At least if we're going to ally, let's ally around making

Time: 2268.515

both of ourselves healthier.

Time: 2271.925

Andrew Huberman: Absolutely.

Time: 2272.865

And we're going to go deeper into how to look into the map of self and how

Time: 2278.105

that relates to relationship, certainly more as we go along this discussion.

Time: 2284.774

You've mentioned several times, however, about generative drive and

Time: 2288.335

that it really is the definition of like-minded in some sense.

Time: 2293.745

And you also mentioned aggressive drives and pleasure drives, themes

Time: 2297.045

that we touched on again in episodes one and two, but listening to those

Time: 2300.135

episodes is certainly not necessary to digest what we're talking about today.

Time: 2304.305

Could you go a little bit deeper into the generative drive,

Time: 2306.855

flesh out for us what that is?

Time: 2309.995

I think generative, I think generator, I think energy.

Time: 2314.055

I hear aggression or aggressive drive.

Time: 2316.455

I think, as I think most people do, friction, maybe even conflict, maybe

Time: 2323.265

physical conflict, maybe verbal conflict.

Time: 2326.035

But I know it's some of that perhaps, but a whole lot more.

Time: 2330.595

And then pleasure drive and pleasure.

Time: 2332.615

Some people think bliss, some people think delight.

Time: 2336.295

Some people probably have all sorts of specific things they

Time: 2338.895

think of with respect to pleasure.

Time: 2340.125

So if you could just flesh those out for us a little bit more, because

Time: 2342.725

I think those are going to serve as cornerstones of today's discussion.

Time: 2347.815

Paul Conti: Sure.

Time: 2348.545

So drives, in this case the generative drive, sort of exist within us.

Time: 2354.175

And what they do is they're defining potential.

Time: 2357.405

So right now, one could argue, if w e just pause for a couple of s

Time: 2361.218

econds, we're not doing anything generative in those seconds.

Time: 2364.325

But then we resume doing something that we believe is generative.

Time: 2368.445

So at the time we're pausing, that's when we can sort of look at that as a

Time: 2372.435

drive within us to make new learning, to understand things we didn't understand

Time: 2380.285

before, to spread a sense of goodness.

Time: 2382.845

So it resides in us in a way that is determined by a whole

Time: 2387.215

bunch of different factors.

Time: 2388.784

Like everything else that's determined within us, there's a

Time: 2391.425

nature and a nurture component.

Time: 2393.405

So some aspects of it are what are the genetics that came down to us?

Time: 2396.625

What are formative experiences?

Time: 2398.545

But we can go in and alter that.

Time: 2400.965

So if we see the drive as a set of potentials, like in that moment, we pause.

Time: 2406.265

There's a set of potentials within us, like potential of where we can take our

Time: 2411.174

thoughts, our actions, our reflections, our decisions, that's the drive within us.

Time: 2416.675

And it exists within us in a way that we could localize now.

Time: 2423.155

Like, if we think enough about, okay, how much of a generative drive is there

Time: 2426.445

in a person, how much is that person looking to make a better life for

Time: 2432.795

themselves or a better world around them?

Time: 2434.605

And how do they feel about themselves and their ability to do that?

Time: 2437.325

How generative are they?

Time: 2438.675

Or how shut down or demoralized or envious?

Time: 2441.525

So we can, in a sense, localize that.

Time: 2444.395

And again, the localization has these genetic and nurture components to it,

Time: 2449.305

but we can then go and influence that.

Time: 2451.785

And that's the importance.

Time: 2453.535

If the drive is a set of potentials, a set of possibilities, then that

Time: 2458.235

drive is one and the same pervaded with, however we want to describe

Time: 2463.755

that, with the agency and gratitude, because the agency and gratitude is

Time: 2467.555

sort of the operative form of that.

Time: 2468.985

That's the verb.

Time: 2470.455

It's the drive, actually driving something.

Time: 2473.475

So if you have a strong generative drive, then agency and gratitude

Time: 2477.095

are leading the decisions.

Time: 2478.285

The reflections are coming through that, the aggression within us,

Time: 2483.065

or again, that's the historical word, but so we can say aggression,

Time: 2488.545

assertion, proactiveness, right?

Time: 2491.985

All of this inside of us and our drive for pleasure, for gratification,

Time: 2496.475

that all is, then it's in us, but it's subserving the generative drive,

Time: 2500.885

meaning the generative drive, that set of potentials and possibilities

Time: 2505.155

is dominant, which of course makes sense with agency and gratitude, those

Time: 2510.795

active verbs being what is most active.

Time: 2514.375

And then we're also going to feel at times, and hopefully at a lot of times,

Time: 2520.895

that set of peacefulness, that sense of contentment, the sense of delight, what

Time: 2525.695

you're describing when you're doing the podcast and you're in it and all these

Time: 2529.105

good things are happening to you, right?

Time: 2530.815

There's a strong generative drive in you.

Time: 2533.065

That set of potentials are being actualized through the

Time: 2535.955

verbs of agency and gratitude.

Time: 2538.435

Like you're doing it all right then, and as you're doing it, you have

Time: 2541.855

a sense of peace and contentment as you're enacting all of it.

Time: 2545.975

And then that makes you healthier.

Time: 2547.755

It reinforces the generative drive.

Time: 2549.425

It protects you against the next sling or arrow of outrageous

Time: 2552.935

fortune that will come your way.

Time: 2555.045

You become more self knowledgeable, more, you become stronger.

Time: 2559.905

And ultimately, that's what we're looking for.

Time: 2563.155

That's the state of goodness.

Time: 2565.035

And I believe that if you look h istorically, what

Time: 2567.815

is it that we're seeking?

Time: 2568.825

We can put so many words to it, and we're choosing to put these words to it.

Time: 2573.675

I mean, I think that this is the structure, because I think the

Time: 2576.585

science, the history, the clinical experience, the phenomenology,

Time: 2580.085

I think it all tells us this.

Time: 2582.025

We can put different words to it, but what we're looking at when we're looking at

Time: 2586.204

truth and how to get to the "happiness" that people have sought through the

Time: 2590.985

ages, I think we know enough now.

Time: 2593.195

We've learned enough that we can say, oh, this is what it looks like, and

Time: 2597.805

it fits the arbiter of all truth, which is, as you get further u p

Time: 2603.425

the hierarchy, it gets simpler.

Time: 2605.704

That's true about humans.

Time: 2607.745

What's going on in my unconscious is very, very complicated.

Time: 2612.505

But if that's summing to, as we get higher up to, I'm approaching

Time: 2616.375

the world with a lot of agency and gratitude, that's a lot simpler.

Time: 2621.695

And that's what can be common among us, which is why if my pillars are very

Time: 2627.465

different from your pillars and what we've struggled against, each is very

Time: 2631.985

different, and what we may still have to work against is very different, well, we

Time: 2636.895

can be extremely compatible as friends, because are we working on ourselves?

Time: 2641.155

Are we fostering the generative drive so we're coming at the world in that way?

Time: 2645.305

And agency and gratitude, that's the similarity between us that matters.

Time: 2650.465

And ultimately, we're looking at the potential that every moment we're building

Time: 2654.555

the potential in us for what comes at the next moment, which is why we're describing

Time: 2660.005

the overlap, the point of commonality that really matters, that matters.

Time: 2664.685

We're putting a label to it.

Time: 2665.725

We're saying it's the generative drive, but i t is also that, okay, we both c ome

Time: 2669.355

at the world through agency and gratitude.

Time: 2672.005

If two people are assessing compatibility, but if we're looking at something to nest

Time: 2676.625

that under, and what seems most logical is the set of potentials within us that we're

Time: 2682.315

building and altering each moment, and then as I alter it in this moment, it's

Time: 2687.335

altered and then affects my next moment.

Time: 2690.275

If I do something that's just kind of thoughtless to somebody because I'm

Time: 2694.225

in a bad mood, then what am I doing?

Time: 2697.074

I'm projecting out my aggression.

Time: 2698.475

I'm doing something that basically makes me less than.

Time: 2701.055

And then I'm going to feel less in the next moment.

Time: 2703.595

Whether that moment is about me or is about someone else, the drives

Time: 2706.985

are the potentials in us, but we are actively working on them, determining

Time: 2712.715

them, changing them each moment.

Time: 2716.975

Andrew Huberman: I'm well on board the idea that the typical pairings, let's

Time: 2722.245

call them the idiosyncratic pairings of musician with musician, in many cases, but

Time: 2727.055

sometimes very verbal person with quieter person, introvert with extrovert, or

Time: 2732.055

introvert with introvert all of that takes backseat or perhaps even back backseat.

Time: 2739.505

Perhaps it even is out of the vehicle compared to the critical

Time: 2742.705

importance of generative drive.

Time: 2745.345

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 2746.885

Andrew Huberman: When we think about generative drives in individuals, you

Time: 2751.015

beautifully described what a generative drive is and how it shows up in

Time: 2754.865

individuals when thinking about generative drives in romantic relationships, however,

Time: 2761.875

because generative drive can be expressed to varying degrees, does one often see

Time: 2767.795

that, or do you think that, a matching of sort of levels of generative drives

Time: 2774.695

is what fosters the best relationships?

Time: 2777.215

In other words, let's say somebody has a pretty high pleasure drive,

Time: 2782.025

but not a very strong, aggressive, also called, proactiveness drive.

Time: 2787.045

And so maybe they watch a lot of Netflix, like a lot of Netflix, but

Time: 2793.835

they're not even the sort of person that's really excited about the shows

Time: 2796.605

and telling you about them, because there's a version of watching a lot

Time: 2798.895

of Netflix where the person is really interested in learning and in knowing.

Time: 2802.885

Maybe even they're thinking about writing something, you know,

Time: 2806.194

some poetry or book, or they're bringing some of that to their life.

Time: 2809.575

I mention it that way because watching Netflix isn't bad, per se.

Time: 2814.025

It's not anti-generative.

Time: 2815.075

Paul Conti: Is it an escape, or is it generative?

Time: 2817.084

Is a person thinking about what they're going to do, they're going to write

Time: 2819.375

that book, or are they just trying to numb out, and at the end of five

Time: 2823.305

hours in front of the television, they don't know what those five hours were?

Time: 2826.915

There's no intrinsic value judgment based upon a lot of things that

Time: 2832.215

we make value judgments about.

Time: 2835.845

You have to look at, who is the person?

Time: 2837.595

What is the context?

Time: 2838.874

Are they being generative or not?

Time: 2840.855

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

Time: 2841.115

Some of the movies and shows that I've watched in relationships became

Time: 2844.194

the points of connection around, at least to me, tremendously interesting

Time: 2848.975

discussions on hikes that we took the next day and reflections on our

Time: 2853.105

own relationship and work and life.

Time: 2855.035

And so I'm so glad that you point out that there's nothing intrinsically valuable

Time: 2859.445

or invaluable about something like Netflix, or even intrinsically passive

Time: 2865.995

about doing something like sitting around or even reading books, for that matter.

Time: 2869.605

There's a passive version of reading great books also, people forget that.

Time: 2873.305

It's hard to read a great book and not learn something.

Time: 2875.425

I guess that's why they're called great books.

Time: 2876.825

But there is a version of that, and I know many people.

Time: 2879.434

Paul Conti: People want to possess the book.

Time: 2881.155

I read the book and I'm going t o check it off and I don't know what was in it.

Time: 2883.505

Like people do that.

Time: 2884.835

That is not generative.

Time: 2885.995

Andrew Huberman: So should we consider matching of level or expression of

Time: 2890.415

generative drives as perhaps what we are all seeking in seeking relationship?

Time: 2898.915

And do you think that people tend to pair up naturally, pair up with people that

Time: 2904.195

have a similar level of generative drive?

Time: 2907.175

Or if they don't, do you think it leads to problems?

Time: 2910.815

Paul Conti: Yeah, I think that by and large people don't, that it's not the

Time: 2914.135

thing that we're thinking about and looking for in ourselves or others,

Time: 2917.675

and I absolutely believe that it makes problems and let's take a look--

Time: 2922.225

Andrew Huberman: To not look.

Time: 2922.895

It makes problems to not look.

Time: 2924.465

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 2924.775

It makes sense.

Time: 2925.494

The fact that we're not basing it upon generative drive does

Time: 2929.455

indeed, I think, make many, many and in fact, countless problems.

Time: 2934.675

And I would take as an example, think about the idea of a trauma bond, right.

Time: 2939.525

A trauma bond is not a bad thing.

Time: 2943.045

That sounds like a strong statement, because the way that I hear a

Time: 2946.845

trauma bond used is it's a bad thing, b ut it doesn't have to be.

Time: 2952.325

So let's take a look at it.

Time: 2954.025

Imagine that you have what people call a trauma bond.

Time: 2956.715

You have two people who will make up a situation, right.

Time: 2961.885

They're functioning in the world around them, b ut they each have

Time: 2965.115

had some very s ignificant trauma that is creating issues in them.

Time: 2969.875

So let's say they're avoidance issues.

Time: 2972.165

A person doesn't feel safe or comfortable in the world around them.

Time: 2975.265

They get invited to places that they'd like to go, but they don't go.

Time: 2979.845

They want to go to the museum and see something really new and cool there.

Time: 2982.685

But there might be a crowd.

Time: 2983.874

I mean, this happens.

Time: 2985.145

And let's say you have two people who both have this in them.

Time: 2988.965

It could be because the trauma is similar.

Time: 2991.525

The trauma could be night and day.

Time: 2993.965

But they each have this in them.

Time: 2995.805

They could bond around that trauma in a way that worsens the trauma.

Time: 3002.525

That's why people think negatively of a trauma bond.

Time: 3005.715

So if the case is that the trauma bond is not a good thing f or these

Time: 3011.115

two people, you say, why is that?

Time: 3013.015

It's not because both of them have h ad trauma and both of them are impacted

Time: 3016.675

by trauma, and both of them a re impacted by trauma in similar ways.

Time: 3020.485

It's not that.

Time: 3021.515

It's that the drives are not in a healthy place and the gratification

Time: 3026.335

of the generative drive and the pleasure drives are not high enough.

Time: 3030.295

So let's imagine the generative drive could be relatively low in

Time: 3036.895

each of these people in one or the other, or they could have a naturally

Time: 3041.475

high drive that's being thwarted.

Time: 3045.285

So there's something that's out of balance where the drive is,

Time: 3048.525

the ability to express the drive.

Time: 3050.865

Is there enough agency?

Time: 3053.175

If there's not, like, let's say one person is really, really shut down.

Time: 3056.485

That person can't stand their job, right?

Time: 3058.815

Okay.

Time: 3059.155

Something is shutting that person down.

Time: 3061.005

The generative drive wishes for greater expression.

Time: 3063.395

They go back and look at themselves.

Time: 3064.785

You can bring that into line.

Time: 3066.535

But something is out of balance at the time.

Time: 3069.905

The pleasure drive may be low or it may be high, but it may not be gratified.

Time: 3074.935

It may be that that person loves museums and wants to go to the museum,

Time: 3078.905

but can't find that gratification.

Time: 3081.285

That's a possibility.

Time: 3082.475

The aggression or assertion drive would be on the low end, but it could be higher.

Time: 3088.065

Maybe if that person felt safer, that drive within them has a lot of latitude

Time: 3092.725

in it, and maybe it could move higher.

Time: 3094.655

But something is out of balance in the drives and in their expression.

Time: 3100.235

That's the problem.

Time: 3101.445

Because let's look at the other side, where a trauma

Time: 3104.335

bond is a great thing, right?

Time: 3106.465

So each of the people in the example has trauma, and they recognize it in

Time: 3111.145

themselves, and they understand how it makes things harder for them, and

Time: 3116.305

then they're communicating about how it makes it hard in the other, right?

Time: 3120.615

So maybe there's a lot of overlap in social avoidance and sense of

Time: 3125.115

vulnerability, but maybe there are things that are different

Time: 3128.164

in one person versus the other.

Time: 3129.925

So then they can come together and say, look, what's the goal of life?

Time: 3135.125

I would like to be as healthy a s I can be.

Time: 3137.535

I'm working on myself.

Time: 3138.545

You want to be as healthy as you can be?

Time: 3140.275

We want to be as healthy as we can be.

Time: 3142.515

And if we're healthy, we also help e ach of us be healthy.

Time: 3146.425

So maybe those two people, neither of w hich they would ever go to the

Time: 3150.795

m useum on their own, because the trauma inside of them is at a point i

Time: 3155.358

t hasn't been worked through, or it's a t a place where they just simply feel

Time: 3159.365

too vulnerable, but together they can go to the museum, and then the bond

Time: 3165.324

around trauma helps them be healthy.

Time: 3169.095

The drives are in a better place because they're able to recognize, hey,

Time: 3173.025

there are things going on in me that I'd like to be different and better,

Time: 3175.325

and you recognize that, too, and we can talk about it with one another.

Time: 3178.275

Right?

Time: 3178.784

So they're in a healthier place, and then from that healthier

Time: 3182.585

place, they build greater health.

Time: 3186.405

Andrew Huberman: So much of what we hear about in terms of friction points

Time: 3189.905

in relationship centers around it seems communication or lack of communication.

Time: 3196.015

And as you're describing the role of the generative drive in healthy

Time: 3199.125

relationship, it seems to me that it ties back in every way to agency

Time: 3204.495

and gratitude and agency being such a critical element of communication,

Time: 3208.365

because wherever you've identified that, okay, there's a potential problem here.

Time: 3212.685

People with high generative drive in these examples seem to be capable of, like,

Time: 3217.855

self inquiry, asking the other person questions that bring them closer together

Time: 3223.105

and to a deeper understanding of the self.

Time: 3225.575

I raise this because one thing that's often overheard, or that I've overheard,

Time: 3231.525

I of course have siblings and friends, and I'll place this in the way that I've

Time: 3236.994

most typically heard it, but I'm sure it exists in other ways too, which is the

Time: 3242.345

conversation in my head is one where a woman is saying they're with somebody or

Time: 3247.595

dating somebody, and he's so clueless.

Time: 3251.284

I wish that he would just do this thing.

Time: 3253.624

Sometimes these are acts of chivalry, like, maybe it's flowers or vacations, but

Time: 3258.065

more often than not, it's a request or a complaint about a lack of proactiveness.

Time: 3264.265

This is also what ratchets up to these very pan statements that you

Time: 3267.725

hear, like, oh, there's no real men these days, or like, there are no

Time: 3270.735

real men left, or this kind of thing.

Time: 3272.695

You also hear it in the reverse, right?

Time: 3274.245

You hear men making pan statements about women.

Time: 3277.395

And here we're doing this in the context of heterosexual pairings.

Time: 3280.555

Paul Conti: But of course it could all work just as well.

Time: 3283.955

Andrew Huberman: It could all work in the context of homosexual pairings too.

Time: 3288.585

So you hear those sorts of things, and it sounds like a lack of communication.

Time: 3292.344

Okay, maybe one person needs to be better at asking for their needs to be met.

Time: 3296.765

Maybe the other person needs to develop more of an awareness

Time: 3299.055

of what the other person needs.

Time: 3300.215

Of course, we all seem to kind of intrinsically wish that things would

Time: 3304.315

just happen for us without the need to request them or ask for them.

Time: 3307.994

But I'm realizing again that all of that is distracting commotion, because

Time: 3314.275

that's not really what's going on.

Time: 3316.385

What's really going on, it seems, is that the engine behind communication, the

Time: 3322.985

engine behind curiosity, a desire to learn and know and create something from that

Time: 3328.995

learning and knowing in the relationship, the generative drive, is really what's

Time: 3334.635

the issue, or the lack of generative drive in any of those conversations.

Time: 3339.985

It seems one could circle back to that and go, okay, well, someone's not asking the

Time: 3344.495

right questions and therefore not doing the right things because they don't either

Time: 3348.094

have a sense of agency, or they don't have gratitude for the situation they're in,

Time: 3351.985

including their own ability to do that.

Time: 3354.335

Right?

Time: 3354.825

So when you hear people aren't showing up for the relationship, they're not

Time: 3358.415

showing up, or she's not showing up.

Time: 3360.705

Or again, let's make the pan statement go in the other direction, that

Time: 3367.045

somebody just wants a lot of attention.

Time: 3368.875

They just need an excess amount of attention, won't let me do

Time: 3371.155

my own thing, but also want me to work and be successful.

Time: 3374.185

Again, these are stereotypes, but all of that seems very distracting.

Time: 3378.954

However, all of it seems far simpler if we push it through this filter

Time: 3385.075

of generative drives and whether or not it's being expressed.

Time: 3389.175

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 3390.175

I think maybe the best example of t his, because it's so highly charged,

Time: 3394.595

is, i magine that the pleasure drive is through the lens of sex and sexuality.

Time: 3398.994

So imagine that people are in a pairing, they're in a relationship, regardless

Time: 3403.905

of h ow they got there, w e're taking...

Time: 3405.295

people are in a relationship.

Time: 3406.725

And one h as say, a sex drive, which means a n interest in sex and maybe proclivities

Time: 3414.135

for diversity of sexual experience.

Time: 3416.534

Let's say if we just for sake of this example, we put on a one to

Time: 3419.754

10 scale, that person is a two.

Time: 3421.955

Okay, now let's say the other person in the relationship--

Time: 3424.46

Andrew Huberman: 10 being the greatest?

Time: 3425.755

Paul Conti: Yeah, sorry.

Time: 3426.155

10 being the greatest.

Time: 3427.635

That person is a two.

Time: 3428.475

Now let's say the partner is an eight.

Time: 3430.435

Okay, so there's a big mismatch there, you think, how does that normally go?

Time: 3437.145

The two stays a two, the eight stays an eight, and things don't go well.

Time: 3441.625

Andrew Huberman: Right.

Time: 3441.885

Paul Conti: It creates friction in the relationship.

Time: 3443.675

At a minimum, it blows the relationship apart.

Time: 3446.695

At a maximum, the person who's a two feels inadequate often.

Time: 3450.395

I mean, it's not always right, but this is how this often goes.

Time: 3452.654

Person who's a two feels inadequate because the person who's an eight

Time: 3455.395

wants either more or different and the person who's a two doesn't.

Time: 3459.815

Now that person feels bad, and they may feel bad about themselves or resentful

Time: 3462.955

of the person with a higher sex drive.

Time: 3464.775

The person on the higher level feels now resentful of the

Time: 3467.754

person at the lower level.

Time: 3468.795

Or maybe they feel like there's something wrong with them because their sex drive

Time: 3471.422

i s too high, or they have an i nterest that the other person doesn't have.

Time: 3475.425

And now they start labeling themselves.

Time: 3477.395

This happens all the time and it doesn't change most of the time.

Time: 3483.395

And the problems are enormous.

Time: 3486.725

Okay, let's see.

Time: 3490.905

How would that look with really high generative drives and

Time: 3495.455

therefore the ability to think about self, to think about others,

Time: 3498.935

and to think about the "us" of the situation, t he two people together.

Time: 3503.624

So they would be able to talk about it in ways that wouldn't be

Time: 3511.524

faulting of the other and would acknowledge what's inside of them.

Time: 3515.405

Like, the person with the lower drive could say things like, it doesn't

Time: 3519.005

strike me as more interesting.

Time: 3520.395

I don't think about it more.

Time: 3521.345

They could talk about all of that.

Time: 3523.135

The person who wishes more or wishes different could

Time: 3526.424

talk about that too, right.

Time: 3528.235

And could talk about what they feel inside, if there's a frustration of that.

Time: 3531.315

Just like the person with the lower sex drive could talk about how

Time: 3534.525

frustrating i t feels to feel pressured.

Time: 3535.985

Right?

Time: 3536.425

So what are they developing?

Time: 3537.914

They're mentalizing.

Time: 3539.274

They're thinking about each other's emotional states, and they're coming at

Time: 3543.895

each other through agency and gratitude.

Time: 3546.354

Like, I'm so grateful for you.

Time: 3548.115

Remember, see, the example is these people are partners and they're

Time: 3551.525

happy with their partnership.

Time: 3552.665

Like, oh, my God, I'm so grateful I found you.

Time: 3555.605

They would each feel that way.

Time: 3557.055

I'm so grateful you're in my life.

Time: 3558.555

Like, this happens too, right?

Time: 3560.755

And then from that lens, the two isn't going to become an eight.

Time: 3564.965

The eight isn't going to become a two.

Time: 3567.155

But in general, in situations like this, there can be

Time: 3569.785

somewhere in the middle, right?

Time: 3572.065

Let's say the two says, like, okay, you know what?

Time: 3574.965

I can get out of my comfort zone a little bit.

Time: 3576.925

Why don't most people try that?

Time: 3578.585

Because they feel embarrassed, they feel self conscious.

Time: 3581.594

They don't want to try new things or try more.

Time: 3583.745

People get closed down because there's such shame around sexuality.

Time: 3587.885

You could take people on any spectrum of sexuality and you will find shame

Time: 3592.714

not in every person, but across whatever population we're looking at,

Time: 3595.825

because it's so emotionally charged.

Time: 3597.775

So let's say in a loving, caring relationship, you're like, that

Time: 3600.665

person feels the freedom inside.

Time: 3602.465

Say, you know what?

Time: 3603.605

Maybe I could enjoy sex a little more, a little more

Time: 3606.115

often, a little more innovative.

Time: 3607.155

That person thinks about it like somebody who's at a two can then move t hat to

Time: 3611.494

a different place a little b it more, or maybe even a lot more, depending.

Time: 3615.475

And then the person who's at the h igher level, the eight doesn't

Time: 3619.145

need another eight in order to stay in the relationship, but something

Time: 3623.375

maybe more than a two, right?

Time: 3624.995

And then let's say they come into the middle, and then the person who's

Time: 3627.885

an eight realizes like, look, I love you and you love me and you're out of

Time: 3632.855

your comfort zone in order to do this.

Time: 3635.574

And wow, a nd it's like more fun for both of us.

Time: 3638.295

So you know what?

Time: 3639.185

It's okay.

Time: 3639.655

My higher sex drive, I'll deal with that.

Time: 3641.845

That maybe just making it up, l ike, I would like to do it t hree times a week.

Time: 3645.735

We're doing it, two.

Time: 3646.945

Okay, you know what?

Time: 3648.065

That's fine.

Time: 3648.624

Both sides can live with it.

Time: 3650.765

But it is not threadbear.

Time: 3653.075

It's not like, well, they can live with it.

Time: 3654.461

It's like, no.

Time: 3655.135

Number one, they can live with it.

Time: 3656.455

Number two, it's better.

Time: 3659.175

It's better, right?

Time: 3660.355

The two at one point was thinking, hey, anything more

Time: 3663.555

than a two is, I can't do that.

Time: 3664.795

They shut down.

Time: 3665.595

The eight doesn't want anything less than an eight.

Time: 3667.114

Now they're in the middle and their relationship is closer.

Time: 3669.795

That's real.

Time: 3671.005

That happens.

Time: 3672.235

What is it relying upon?

Time: 3673.675

It's relying upon the generative drive to h ave the openness,

Time: 3676.435

the ability to communicate.

Time: 3677.565

Maybe the person who's an eight, say, has a sexual proclivity

Time: 3680.745

they're embarrassed about.

Time: 3681.555

That happens all the time, too.

Time: 3683.075

But in the sense of acceptance of self and the belief in the strength of the

Time: 3688.085

relationship and the acceptance of t he other, people can broach things.

Time: 3691.675

Most people who feel like, oh, I c ould never broach that.

Time: 3694.225

It's not something bizarre or dangerous.

Time: 3696.685

It's not something that in a relationship that's defined by the generative drive,

Time: 3701.935

the o ther person is likely to reject.

Time: 3704.345

So let's define our relationships through the g enerative drive,

Time: 3709.635

and let's cultivate in self a nd others the most generative drive.

Time: 3714.255

If somehow, let's say, person A and p erson B here, because it doesn't

Time: 3717.784

matter who's the eight and who's the two, h as cultivated more of a

Time: 3720.645

generative drive, then maybe that person could give more t o the other before

Time: 3724.995

that person can give back to them.

Time: 3727.365

We have these, I think, just completely nonsensical ideas about mutuality.

Time: 3734.555

The idea that even in a situation that's supposed to be defined by love, a nd

Time: 3739.114

friendship is a form of love, right?

Time: 3740.624

So friendship, a collaborative endeavor, they have some affection in them, right?

Time: 3747.825

Friendship can have love and often does.

Time: 3750.105

And let's say the love of romance, that there's supposed

Time: 3753.045

to be some equality, right?

Time: 3754.865

The idea that, well, if I'm going t o give something, I want you to give

Time: 3758.005

something, too, it is not good if one person is always doing the giving.

Time: 3763.865

Things are out of balance, but it is very healthy to be able to s ay,

Time: 3768.505

if I can give something and y ou're not in a place to give something.

Time: 3771.055

Let me just give something to you.

Time: 3773.175

People don't always, or maybe don't often depend on how we want to look at it,

Time: 3778.155

give to others with a sense of freedom.

Time: 3780.444

And you don't owe me anything either.

Time: 3781.965

Why?

Time: 3783.525

Because it comes from love.

Time: 3784.645

It comes from the abundance, the excess of goodness in me coming through the agency

Time: 3792.295

that I feel, the gratitude that I feel.

Time: 3793.935

And then what's more likely, you're much more likely the other person, to sort of

Time: 3799.815

feel like, hey, I can go a little more.

Time: 3801.295

You feel stronger, you feel empowered making someone feel worse or saying,

Time: 3805.925

you know what, I can give you something, but you owe me something back.

Time: 3809.215

Even if that's tacit, I can give you this now.

Time: 3811.815

But you kind of know that the other person is going to end up doing the

Time: 3813.915

laundry for two months or something like that, this is not okay.

Time: 3816.015

Why don't I just give something?

Time: 3817.075

You're giving goodness, and then the other person actually gets the goodness,

Time: 3820.905

and they're more likely to find it within themselves to then come a little out of

Time: 3826.245

their comfort zone, develop, move their generative drive a little bit forward.

Time: 3832.295

Gifts given to others with no expectation of return are gifts of abundance.

Time: 3838.055

They're gifts that arise from the generative d rive, and

Time: 3840.845

they make us more generative.

Time: 3841.738

Think about the opposite.

Time: 3842.824

W hat often happens, each person makes the other feel guilty, right?

Time: 3846.505

Oh, this person wants you, wants so much.

Time: 3848.585

And look, there you are again.

Time: 3849.325

Like, people feel terrible about that, or t he're you don't

Time: 3852.014

want any sex, or this or that.

Time: 3853.135

The other person feels terrible.

Time: 3855.715

That's why the two stays the two and the eight stays the eight.

Time: 3858.945

But it doesn't have to be that way, a nd it's also not that if both end up

Time: 3862.195

in the middle, say both a re a five, that that's some compromised position.

Time: 3865.635

That implies less.

Time: 3866.985

No, that's the compromised position that makes more.

Time: 3870.045

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. Based on my understanding of the generative drive, the aggressive also,

Time: 3955.005

we're calling it proactiveness drive, and the pleasure drive, and the importance

Time: 3960.385

of the generative drive being greater than the aggressive or pleasure drives,

Time: 3965.935

I can also see the potential problem of having, like, two eights along the sexual

Time: 3972.005

desire scale, or two nines, or two tens.

Time: 3975.795

And actually, I've observed a lot of examples of this.

Time: 3979.575

For instance, if there are, let's say, two nines, put both people nine out of

Time: 3984.375

10 on the joy and sort of proclivity for sex, adventurous sex, etc., they're

Time: 3990.994

very high on the pleasure scale, perhaps even so much so that they don't pay

Time: 3996.495

attention to, or one person doesn't pay attention to the critical need for

Time: 4002.095

points of compatibility to be met, like the desire to someday have a family.

Time: 4006.164

I've known couples like this.

Time: 4008.005

They're together for a long time.

Time: 4009.155

They seem to really enjoy one another.

Time: 4010.685

I know nothing of their sex lives, but there just seems to be a very strong

Time: 4014.355

attachment around certain forms of pleasure that they both enjoy engaging in.

Time: 4019.245

So this could be activities or travel.

Time: 4021.715

I mean, here we're saying nine out of 10 on the sex scale.

Time: 4025.775

But in many of those cases, there's one person saying, but I want to have a family

Time: 4031.444

someday, and they're just not into that.

Time: 4033.155

Or perhaps even like, but he won't leave his wife.

Time: 4037.185

They're involved in something that feels really good.

Time: 4040.025

They're matching along some pleasure drive, but completely overlooking the

Time: 4045.345

larger goals of one or both people.

Time: 4048.145

Right here I pointed to an instance of infidelity that's its own issues with

Time: 4054.565

morals, etc., but you see this a lot.

Time: 4058.204

People really orienting towards what feels good and who feels good to be with.

Time: 4062.235

And that, of course, is healthy, but that's not the entire picture.

Time: 4066.444

So would you say that what I'm describing is an example of where the pleasure

Time: 4070.905

drive has overcome the generative drive?

Time: 4074.245

Because in the case of somebody wanting a family and the other person already

Time: 4078.205

having one and being unwilling to leave that one or the other person not wanting

Time: 4082.335

a family, that the generative drive of the person who wants a family is not

Time: 4089.735

being respected or it's being undermined by this excess desire for pleasure.

Time: 4093.905

Like they're just drawn into the moment and the amazing weekends,

Time: 4098.085

but this person's incredible and they're charismatic.

Time: 4100.234

And I can't tell you how many times I've had friends say that they admire

Time: 4105.555

the person they're with, but they know the relationship can't work because

Time: 4108.925

of all these other underlying issues.

Time: 4112.675

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 4113.265

It's interesting.

Time: 4114.225

We both overestimate and underestimate what, say, love can do.

Time: 4120.585

Right? People say, oh, love can do anything.

Time: 4122.295

No, if I spill that glass, love's not going to put the water back in it.

Time: 4126.935

If I must live in North America a nd my partner must live in South America,

Time: 4132.645

we're not going to be okay, r ight?

Time: 4135.215

So we say these things in a very wishful way.

Time: 4137.605

Love will overcome everything.

Time: 4138.845

It doesn't overcome that, o r maybe it does in the right circumstances.

Time: 4145.885

So think about if the generative drive i s very high in both people,

Time: 4153.465

s o both people have, say, a strong n eed to live in a certain place, t

Time: 4157.204

hey can find a compromise position.

Time: 4159.295

Maybe they live half the year in North America and half in South America.

Time: 4162.995

But why?

Time: 4163.745

Because in that situation, the love between them, which is the

Time: 4168.755

generative drive in the relationship.

Time: 4171.244

So what does that mean?

Time: 4173.244

The first person has to have a strong generative drive, be healthy, understand

Time: 4177.485

that even though I n eed to live in North America, does it actually mean that?

Time: 4181.645

That I really need to live in North America?

Time: 4183.235

I have to be able to see beyond myself, a nd what does that mean to

Time: 4185.975

the p erson I love who needs to live o n the other side of the world?

Time: 4189.025

If the other person can do that t oo, then in the relationship,

Time: 4194.085

which is a new entity, i t emerges from one person and the other.

Time: 4198.185

You can know everything about one person, everything about the other.

Time: 4201.915

You don't know about the two of them together.

Time: 4204.565

So the two of them together are an "us".

Time: 4207.624

And if that us has a strong generative drive, which it can If each person

Time: 4214.005

has a strong generative drive, they can bring to the state of emergence

Time: 4217.075

of the us the generative drive.

Time: 4219.265

And we're talking about a relationship, so say the love between them

Time: 4222.975

and they can find a way through.

Time: 4224.935

So the idea that love cures all things, we have to define,

Time: 4229.215

what does that actually mean?

Time: 4230.865

It doesn't mean we have a lot of pleasure together, right?

Time: 4233.395

Or we like a lot of the same things.

Time: 4235.565

That's not what that means, a nd people can very much love one another but not be

Time: 4239.955

aware of the limitations inside of them.

Time: 4242.775

Because maybe there are other things going on in them, like, say, childhood trauma.

Time: 4246.655

They love one another, but they can't g et out of their comfort zone enough.

Time: 4250.775

So the point is, if we make ourselves as healthy as we can be a nd then two

Time: 4256.105

selves come together that a re making themselves as healthy as they c an be,

Time: 4260.465

then the us between them really can fit that definition of love and do anything.

Time: 4266.935

But we have to define that in the right way, in a way that honors

Time: 4270.705

the truth, which, again, is not a higher degree of complexity.

Time: 4274.124

It's actually more simple.

Time: 4275.954

Andrew Huberman: So you gave an example of a romantic relationship

Time: 4278.345

where one person has a strong sex drive and the other a weaker drive.

Time: 4283.145

And then we talked about an example where both people have an essentially high sex

Time: 4288.125

drive and where that could potentially be beneficial, assuming that the generative

Time: 4292.925

drive is also high in both of them.

Time: 4295.555

And we also explored a little bit of how it can be bad for relationship

Time: 4299.374

if it exceeds the generative drive.

Time: 4302.924

What about the aggressive proactiveness drive?

Time: 4305.415

How does that show up in romantic pairings?

Time: 4308.505

If one person has a high proactiveness, aka aggressive drive, and the other

Time: 4313.625

person does not, what does that look like?

Time: 4317.355

Do you see that often in your clinical practice?

Time: 4320.075

Paul Conti: Sure.

Time: 4321.105

If this makes sense, maybe we look a t that example of the person

Time: 4324.335

who's a two and the person who's an eight on the sex drive scale, right?

Time: 4328.624

You'd say, okay, the person who's a t wo, who's trying to raise that

Time: 4332.925

right, has a strong generative drive.

Time: 4335.175

What does that mean?

Time: 4335.824

The person thinks, you know what?

Time: 4337.165

I think I can do this.

Time: 4338.364

I can set myself about this.

Time: 4339.575

I see it will make my relationship better, I'm going to give it a try.

Time: 4342.825

That's a generative drive in action, the pleasure drive.

Time: 4345.585

The person may look at that and say, look, maybe this can be more fun for me, right?

Time: 4349.715

It hasn't been that fun for me.

Time: 4350.975

If I have a low pleasure drive, could I start enjoying this more?

Time: 4354.325

And then maybe that moves up, right?

Time: 4356.005

Or maybe I have a higher pleasure drive, but it's not been gratified because I

Time: 4359.251

haven't been able to be open and honest.

Time: 4361.115

Let me see if I can make that better.

Time: 4363.245

Then what's active, what the person is d oing, is then going to be the aggressive

Time: 4369.355

or assertive, proactive to that drive and going to the potential in that

Time: 4374.825

drive and mining some of what's in it.

Time: 4377.165

Like, yeah, how am I going to do that?

Time: 4378.705

I'm going to bring myself to bear, a nd that's not an easy thing.

Time: 4382.965

It's not like that person then all of a sudden decides to be more sexual.

Time: 4387.055

There has to be a lot of communication between the two people, a lot of

Time: 4390.524

discussion of what setting might be best for that, what helps the person feel

Time: 4394.335

understood or feel more comfortable.

Time: 4396.355

There's a lot then, to do there.

Time: 4398.835

And the person may even need to g o back to the pillars because

Time: 4402.405

the p erson may feel like, whoa, I don't think I can do that.

Time: 4406.824

And then it is...

Time: 4407.675

that's not good.

Time: 4408.305

I want to do that.

Time: 4409.434

What is it that I can't do?

Time: 4410.435

There's a realization there.

Time: 4411.655

And then maybe the person who's an eight because they're so well connected gets it.

Time: 4416.255

Okay.

Time: 4416.615

You can't do that.

Time: 4417.725

Let me support you in whatever way while you're figuring that out.

Time: 4421.565

Because they're both generative, they want to figure that out.

Time: 4424.425

Andrew Huberman: Sorry to interrupt.

Time: 4425.124

When you say, go back to the pillars, you mean go back to exploring

Time: 4428.755

the structure of themselves and their function of themselves--

Time: 4431.975

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 4432.215

Andrew Huberman: --so that they can, for instance, get some insight into what sorts

Time: 4436.425

of defense mechanisms might be in place--

Time: 4438.805

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 4439.635

Andrew Huberman: --what they're paying attention to or their behaviors,

Time: 4442.385

like maybe even health related behaviors that could be impacting

Time: 4445.944

their sex drive, but maybe even things that reside at a deeper level.

Time: 4450.905

The unconscious mind, talking to somebody till they make a connection around shame

Time: 4456.815

or some story that they've integrated into their thinking at a subconscious level.

Time: 4461.605

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 4462.264

Just an example that I see a l ot is avoidance, where, again, not always,

Time: 4466.875

but let's say the person who's the two on the sex drive scale who f inds

Time: 4472.215

like, I can't do it, r ight, wow, I just can't bring myself to do it.

Time: 4476.515

And then they go back and they explore.

Time: 4478.624

This happens a lot where there's avoidance.

Time: 4481.745

And then we get curious about the avoidance because the person's

Time: 4485.015

like, there's something that just, I don't want to do that.

Time: 4489.505

So there's avoidance.

Time: 4490.245

We identify avoidance.

Time: 4491.425

We also identify that it's not healthy, b ecause the person does actually

Time: 4494.545

want to do that because it's good for the relationship and it could be

Time: 4497.324

good for them, too, a nd then maybe we start looking at u nconscious

Time: 4501.315

mind, right, or conscious mind.

Time: 4502.835

And maybe we don't find it, because it's easy.

Time: 4505.745

Now, if I said, oh, there was a major trauma that the person hasn't processed.

Time: 4509.425

Sometimes it's that, but a lot of times it's not that.

Time: 4512.664

Maybe that person just never learned to feel comfortable with sexuality.

Time: 4516.645

Or maybe the way that they experience o r are attracted to sexuality

Time: 4522.275

was disparaged or denigrated.

Time: 4526.118

Or they had some bad feeling about it because the society

Time: 4528.435

and the culture told them that.

Time: 4529.805

Or maybe they had a couple of bad experiences where they

Time: 4532.105

were treated in a certain way.

Time: 4533.685

And then it's like, okay, that person comes by that honestly,

Time: 4536.395

there's not a major trauma there.

Time: 4537.925

In fact, unfortunately, there's a trauma that's almost predictable from the

Time: 4542.415

way our society has been structured.

Time: 4545.445

So person can go, look at that.

Time: 4546.87

I'm like, right, I never learned how t o do this or how

Time: 4552.575

to be comfortable with this.

Time: 4553.885

Or you know what I learned that I'm not good at it, or I learned

Time: 4558.795

that no one will enjoy it with me.

Time: 4561.505

But that's not true.

Time: 4562.925

These are situations not on the side o f a loving relationship.

Time: 4566.215

Now t hat person is able to bring that knowledge to bear, whether it came from t

Time: 4570.401

he unconscious mind or the conscious mind.

Time: 4572.835

And then that's how you work to start shifting things.

Time: 4575.455

Like, that was then, this is now.

Time: 4577.805

It is not then.

Time: 4578.685

when, say, the person, say in high s chool, had a sexuality that

Time: 4582.305

others didn't a pprove of and made them feel bad, well, guess what?

Time: 4584.755

It's not then.

Time: 4585.675

And that's unfortunate.

Time: 4588.065

It's wrong.

Time: 4588.604

It's unjust.

Time: 4589.225

We're going to honor and validate all that that is.

Time: 4592.125

But we're also going to look at that.

Time: 4593.755

That was then, this is now.

Time: 4595.825

And you get to behave differently now.

Time: 4597.945

You're an adult now, and adults get to choose their relationships,

Time: 4601.024

and you chose a good relationship.

Time: 4603.244

So this is the kind of thing that can get that person to the p oint where

Time: 4606.895

they can go back up through now.

Time: 4608.675

What happens at the end of it?

Time: 4609.815

The geyser is stronger.

Time: 4611.395

There's more agency, there's more of a sense of gratitude.

Time: 4614.285

Why?

Time: 4614.615

Because the person can attach themselves more to, I'm so lucky to have this person,

Time: 4618.954

as opposed to, damn it, I wish that person didn't have a higher sex drive, right?

Time: 4623.534

And they feel better about themselves instead o f, what's wrong with me

Time: 4626.195

that I d on't have a higher sex drive?

Time: 4628.575

Or I said they wish the other person had a lower sex drive or wish they had

Time: 4631.205

a higher sex drive that's not grateful.

Time: 4633.205

Like I'm grateful I am who I a m and that I have any sex drive at all.

Time: 4636.535

And I'm grateful for this other person.

Time: 4638.244

Now, through that, that change, they can go back and better access the assertion,

Time: 4648.135

t he proactive drive, the aggressive drive, whatever w e want to call it,

Time: 4650.635

because they've taken away, they've gone and worked through the barrier to it.

Time: 4654.954

Then they're able to be a little m ore out of their comfort zone, and the

Time: 4657.695

other person meets them there, right?

Time: 4659.195

And they start having this healthy thing b etween them where the us that is them,

Time: 4665.325

the love between them, gets better, right?

Time: 4668.085

And then where do they find themselves?

Time: 4669.345

That's how they get to the five, which is not a compromise between

Time: 4673.784

eight a nd two that satisfies neither.

Time: 4675.895

It is a compromise between eight and t wo that is way better for

Time: 4679.635

both and for the relationship.

Time: 4682.925

Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about common pairings that you observe in

Time: 4686.725

the clinical setting, and not to focus on the bad, but if there are common

Time: 4694.005

pairings that rarely lead to a good outcome, I think it's worth us learning

Time: 4700.705

about those, simply because they're common and they lead to a bad outcome.

Time: 4705.865

And a discussion of this sort could potentially help people avoid such

Time: 4711.284

pairings, or at least recognize that they're in such pairings.

Time: 4714.945

And I realize, of course, because of the way that we're framing things

Time: 4718.195

during this series, that anytime we talk about a pairing, we're really

Time: 4722.835

talking about two maps coming together, forming a new and somewhat independent

Time: 4729.835

map that represents the relationship.

Time: 4733.395

I have to assume that many people in the world have maps that are very,

Time: 4737.415

very healthy, and they're probably even those rare individuals that don't

Time: 4742.025

need to go into those cupboards that reside within structure of self and

Time: 4745.414

function of self and do any work.

Time: 4746.765

But for those of you that are just listening and not watching this,

Time: 4749.624

I'm sort of smiling as I'm saying that, because I don't actually

Time: 4751.915

believe any such person exists.

Time: 4754.975

I think all of us, even the healthiest among us, could be even healthier

Time: 4759.445

and express more generative drive and more positivity for ourselves and for

Time: 4763.494

the world were we to do that work.

Time: 4764.9

Paul Conti: Yes. Absolutely.

Time: 4765.335

Andrew Huberman: So it's a lifelong--

Time: 4766.335

Paul Conti: There's no endpoint to that.

Time: 4767.904

That's beautiful.

Time: 4768.694

We can do that forever as long as we're here.

Time: 4771.505

Andrew Huberman: And you should, I do believe.

Time: 4773.585

Which is one of the reasons for having this discussion.

Time: 4775.795

Exactly.

Time: 4778.845

Nonetheless, I have to imagine that there are also a lot of people out

Time: 4782.115

there, perhaps most people, who still have a lot of work to do.

Time: 4786.505

And those words, a lot, perhaps, are in bold faced capital

Time: 4790.555

underlined, highlighted letters.

Time: 4794.685

And as a consequence, we see relationships in the world that are not healthy.

Time: 4799.695

What are some of those common unhealthy pairings?

Time: 4801.925

I think it's worth spending at least a little bit of time on this.

Time: 4804.145

Paul Conti: Yeah, sure.

Time: 4805.335

As we talk about this, I think that we should make a sort of somewhat simplified

Time: 4810.275

but hopefully helpful distinction.

Time: 4812.265

So there are people who are coming a t coupling from primarily health, right?

Time: 4817.675

And again, this isn't to criticize people who aren't coming at

Time: 4820.225

it from primarily health.

Time: 4821.305

We all want to get to where we're coming at anything and

Time: 4824.025

everything from primarily health.

Time: 4825.865

And there a lot of the problems are those simple things like, wow, I

Time: 4829.745

can't believe it didn't work out.

Time: 4831.005

I play the trumpet and he plays the clarinet.

Time: 4833.515

It's like, no, that wasn't a real set of factors.

Time: 4836.675

That's why it didn't work out.

Time: 4838.065

It's more in that realm.

Time: 4840.315

It's not always just that, but that k ind of stuff is a big factor.

Time: 4844.005

When we look in the other realm, where there are significantly problematic

Time: 4852.145

mental health issues, which people come by honestly but need to face if

Time: 4858.694

life is going to get better, there are two common paradigms there.

Time: 4864.025

Now, again, there are way more than t wo ways this can happen, but I'm

Time: 4867.845

going to highlight two that we see a lot and maybe more than anything

Time: 4872.414

else in the clinical setting.

Time: 4874.704

So the first gets called repetition compulsion.

Time: 4879.335

But I want to be very clear, I do not believe that there is any such

Time: 4883.285

thing as a repetition compulsion.

Time: 4885.325

A compulsion is something that one cannot control.

Time: 4888.445

What's going on inside the person is very, very complicated when they're making

Time: 4891.864

decisions that lead to repeating a cycle.

Time: 4894.524

And those are things that can change and do not have to be compulsive.

Time: 4898.695

So people are often struck by why a person is in the same bad relationship, seemingly

Time: 4905.655

that they have always been in, but with a different name on the other person.

Time: 4909.715

I mean, people will say this like i t's that person's fourth abusive relationship

Time: 4914.135

in a row, and it seems to be, it's just the same person with a different name.

Time: 4917.845

People say that a lot.

Time: 4919.375

They say that about themselves, they say that about others,

Time: 4921.965

and it's very, very baffling.

Time: 4923.265

I mean, people have often been in my office very upset about that, like

Time: 4927.415

realizing they're repeating and they don't know and it's frightening.

Time: 4930.895

And you can get a lot of fear and vulnerability from that.

Time: 4935.005

But there's a way of understanding it that, because the limbic system, the

Time: 4941.015

emotional parts of our minds don't care about the clock and the calendar.

Time: 4946.324

So trauma impacts, it impacts the whole brain, but trauma

Time: 4951.165

impacts the limbic system.

Time: 4952.835

It creates strong negative emotion that then stays with us regardless of time.

Time: 4958.595

It doesn't care about time.

Time: 4960.465

So imagine now a person gets in a relationship and the relationship

Time: 4967.274

starts to become abusive.

Time: 4969.315

I mean, it's easy to say that and then move on to something else.

Time: 4974.045

What's that like for that person?

Time: 4975.985

What does that feel like when that person, who they may have

Time: 4978.745

seen as a protector, a friend, is now cursing at them, denigrating

Time: 4984.104

them, pushing them, hitting them?

Time: 4985.405

I mean, it's terrifying.

Time: 4986.835

It's horrible, right?

Time: 4988.755

So it is a deep impact, a t raumatic impact on the person.

Time: 4991.935

And a lot of the time, most of the time, like all trauma, it triggers shame.

Time: 4998.595

So trauma triggers shame in us.

Time: 5000.785

If the trauma is strong enough, it changes us as we move forward in the world.

Time: 5005.425

And then we are different in a way that makes the past

Time: 5009.575

very immediate in the present.

Time: 5012.315

So what the person then is trying to do, and there's been a lot of thought

Time: 5017.275

about this over the years in the fields, trying to understand this,

Time: 5020.614

and I think in many ways doing a good job of understanding this, that the

Time: 5025.785

"repetition compulsion" is the drive, and I don't mean drive like we're saying.

Time: 5031.085

There's a push inside the person to t ry and make that right with the i

Time: 5036.798

dea that if that person can be in that situation again, and I don't mean in

Time: 5040.875

the exact situation when someone raises a hand to them, but they can navigate

Time: 5044.755

a relationship because they thought it was a good idea the first time.

Time: 5047.805

So they don't want to feel like that was a very bad idea.

Time: 5050.755

So I'm going to make it right, a nd then I'm going to be okay and I'm

Time: 5052.914

going to be whole because the person is driven by fear and v ulnerability

Time: 5056.264

and the shame of the trauma.

Time: 5058.065

So then they're trying to make it right because the limbic system doesn't

Time: 5062.175

care about the clock or the calendar.

Time: 5064.165

If you can make it right now.

Time: 5065.485

You make it right in the past, b ecause that system doesn't care about the past.

Time: 5069.615

It's driven by trauma, s o then the person's trying to figure

Time: 5073.835

out something that is different.

Time: 5075.225

They're trying to choose that person, behave in the relationship, they're trying

Time: 5078.665

to make t hings different, but they've selected for a d ramatically high pretest

Time: 5085.065

probability of the same t hing happening again, which is why if I could count the

Time: 5091.374

number of times t hat someone has said to me, oh, you're not going to help me,

Time: 5096.415

especially a t the beginning of therapy.

Time: 5097.665

There's no way you can help me.

Time: 5100.605

Five relationships were totally terrible.

Time: 5103.395

There's no way.

Time: 5104.295

There's no hope, right?

Time: 5105.435

People have said that to me so many times.

Time: 5106.965

The last three, the last five, the last nine.

Time: 5109.485

And I will say back, if you t ell me seven different stories of relationships

Time: 5115.455

with seven pretty different people, several different relationships as

Time: 5119.145

they evolved, and the same really bad outcome, I'll agree with you,

Time: 5124.015

but you're not going to tell me that.

Time: 5125.725

And that's why there's hope.

Time: 5127.855

And no one has ever told me s even different stories where I feel like,

Time: 5132.535

wow, you just can't do it, right?

Time: 5135.165

No.

Time: 5135.485

And again, even if there were seven, I'm saying things for exaggeration.

Time: 5138.215

But there aren't.

Time: 5140.585

What is it?

Time: 5141.165

It's the same thing seven times.

Time: 5143.445

That's what it is.

Time: 5144.114

Because the person is repeating.

Time: 5145.505

And if they can understand the what and the why, why are they selecting?

Time: 5149.345

How are they selecting someone?

Time: 5150.505

What's going on inside of them?

Time: 5152.195

We go back to the structure of self, the function of self.

Time: 5155.725

We address what is there then that absolutely can change.

Time: 5161.204

And then what we will talk about is that person then goes out

Time: 5164.575

to find another relationship.

Time: 5165.795

Even if they said they never, never would again.

Time: 5167.785

Like now they're making the decision to go out, as to say, what

Time: 5170.385

relationship a re you looking for?

Time: 5172.015

Your second.

Time: 5173.635

You're the first one seven times.

Time: 5175.235

No harm, no foul.

Time: 5176.874

But you can navigate the second because they're in a different place.

Time: 5181.635

They're coming through agency and gratitude instead

Time: 5184.395

of denigrating themselves.

Time: 5186.005

If you're what's wrong with me, what's wrong with everybody else, I'm here.

Time: 5190.855

Even though some bad things have happened to me, look at

Time: 5193.075

what I can bring myself to bear.

Time: 5194.325

I can go out there and try and find someone I can see with clear vision now.

Time: 5199.654

There's agency, there's gratitude, and then that p erson can go

Time: 5202.755

out and find relationship number two that's a really good one.

Time: 5206.275

Andrew Huberman: In the example you gave, it's very powerful and also very extreme.

Time: 5211.204

An abusive relationship where someone is sadly getting hit or screamed at.

Time: 5218.025

Oftentimes, it seems people end up in repeated unsuccessful pairings, meaning

Time: 5222.375

unhappy pairings of maybe someone who's very strongly assertive, maybe we would

Time: 5228.545

say has a strong aggressive drive.

Time: 5231.075

Some people might even call them a narcissist.

Time: 5233.425

That phrase is thrown around a lot these days.

Time: 5235.654

I mean, narcissists, gaslighting, like projection.

Time: 5238.355

These phrases are thrown around all the time, I think, with frankly,

Time: 5242.005

very little understanding of what they actually mean, unless they're

Time: 5246.115

coming from a qualified clinician.

Time: 5249.865

Is it the case that somewhat passive or submissive people

Time: 5256.725

are drawn to narcissists?

Time: 5258.575

Are narcissists drawn to submissive people?

Time: 5261.045

I think these questions ring in a lot of people's minds.

Time: 5263.505

Paul Conti: If I could clarify something that I think I maybe

Time: 5266.355

could have said in a clearer way.

Time: 5268.085

You pointed out that the example I gave was a very strong one

Time: 5271.864

or an extreme one, right?

Time: 5273.245

So as a physician, I think I naturally gravitate to the extreme

Time: 5277.875

circumstances because they're the ones that bring the greatest risk.

Time: 5281.205

But we are talking to people in those settings, but most people are not

Time: 5287.095

in those extreme settings, but that extreme serves as a model for how

Time: 5292.135

things that are less extreme can happen.

Time: 5294.165

So when I think, we're sitting here talking to everyone across the spectrum,

Time: 5298.485

and most relationships that are not going well, thank goodness, are not

Time: 5301.985

going to be that extreme, or the repeated patterns aren't going to be that extreme.

Time: 5306.085

But it's just as important to pay attention to a pattern where one person

Time: 5312.155

really is sort of more deferential than they would like to be to the other,

Time: 5315.805

than is comfortable to them, and they're seeking someone, ultimately, who's just

Time: 5319.475

a little bit more assertive, and that's not s ome disaster, but it cannot go well

Time: 5324.765

over time, where that person slowly gives up, say, more and more of themselves.

Time: 5328.735

And there can be that repeated pattern.

Time: 5330.345

You hear people say, yeah, it was pretty good or pretty equal at the

Time: 5333.715

beginning, but then I just had l ess and less of a say, or t hen more and more.

Time: 5341.565

I just became the whole relationship.

Time: 5344.354

So it's no less important when it's less dramatic.

Time: 5348.215

Because the relationship still goes in a wrong way when it's more dramatic.

Time: 5351.575

There's more risk, of course, but most p eople are going to be in the less

Time: 5355.275

dramatic but super important category.

Time: 5359.315

And I think it's important to point that out, too.

Time: 5364.165

Andrew Huberman: How much of what we're talking about is nested on people's deep,

Time: 5368.965

perhaps understandable desire to just make sure that the other person doesn't leave?

Time: 5375.235

I can't tell you how many times I've heard about or observed relationships that from

Time: 5378.725

the outside that seemed really unhealthy.

Time: 5381.245

But it also occurred to me that people are doing things on both sides of

Time: 5386.585

the relationship that ensure that the other person doesn't leave.

Time: 5390.575

So I'm not talking about a physical trapping of someone in the environment.

Time: 5393.155

I'm actually talking about the opposite.

Time: 5394.305

I'm talking about somebody going against their better judgment and doing things

Time: 5399.815

for the other person or against themselves or both, perhaps even in the context

Time: 5405.235

of what looks like healthy family, like doing an excessive amount of raising

Time: 5410.925

of children or excessive amount of work to support the family, simply to ensure

Time: 5417.335

that the other person doesn't leave.

Time: 5419.485

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 5420.645

Here, again, we can look across the spectrum.

Time: 5423.555

So before this, you had talked about relationships that can be very

Time: 5426.455

unhealthy, like a narcissistic person.

Time: 5428.365

And how can those relationships develop?

Time: 5430.385

It's important that we touch on that in the context of this because

Time: 5434.575

that's sort of the extreme example.

Time: 5436.405

So people who are narcissistic, meaning a narcissistic character structure.

Time: 5440.365

Now we're getting into the realm of significant psychiatric problems.

Time: 5444.115

And people who are narcissistic are exploitative.

Time: 5447.235

They're a bottomless pit of need arising from vulnerability,

Time: 5450.654

and yes, they can be helped.

Time: 5452.145

And if someone out there thinks I'm narcissistic, then not trying to

Time: 5454.965

be negative or mean like you can get help and you can be better.

Time: 5457.705

That's the whole point of what you and I are talking about here.

Time: 5461.285

So people can change, but someone who's coming at the world through a

Time: 5465.065

narcissistic character structure is exploitive of the other and then can

Time: 5468.575

say, survey a room and find that person who's had trauma such that that person

Time: 5473.085

is going to be desperate not to leave a relationship, and then they can exploit

Time: 5476.085

that person and often behave in awful ways and the other person won't leave.

Time: 5479.675

Now I'm giving an example.

Time: 5480.945

It's not the case that way every single time.

Time: 5484.185

But that's the dominant picture.

Time: 5487.765

If you have a narcissistic person and who is that person more likely to pair with,

Time: 5492.285

and then you sense the vulnerability, the desire for the other person not to leave,

Time: 5496.415

and that person would have to have then significant problems in themselves, like

Time: 5500.615

potentially, instead of a pathological level of narcissism, a pathological

Time: 5505.515

level of dependence, for example.

Time: 5507.565

So we're in the realm then, of real problems.

Time: 5512.345

And again, real problems can be treated and real problems can be improved,

Time: 5515.535

and that's why we have clinical care, but it can also serve as a model for

Time: 5519.945

seeing the ways that are less dramatic.

Time: 5525.274

So there are many people who, through the desire for the other

Time: 5530.015

person not to leave, and we could call that attachment insecurity.

Time: 5534.045

And maybe if we leave away the stereotype version of it, the person doesn't feel

Time: 5538.445

securely attached to the other person.

Time: 5541.045

And somewhere inside of them, they've learned that if they're more pleasing, if

Time: 5547.495

they give up little parts of themselves, that person won't leave, right?

Time: 5551.475

It might be because that's why their m other didn't leave their father,

Time: 5555.065

when they think about it, it might be that's why their father left

Time: 5557.805

their mother, because their mother wouldn't do that, whatever it may be.

Time: 5561.005

Or it may be their own prior life experience or who knows,

Time: 5563.565

something they read but forgot?

Time: 5565.315

I mean, usually it's something more salient, not always, but

Time: 5568.515

they've internalized something that leads to a compromise of the self.

Time: 5573.775

Now, again, that's not what attachment insecurity is.

Time: 5577.574

Attachment insecurity is just feeling some insecurity about the attachment.

Time: 5582.895

So, for example, I feel attachment insecurity about just about everything.

Time: 5587.355

I've had the experience of sudden, very painful losses happening,

Time: 5595.175

so I have attachment insecurity in the sense that I'm worried.

Time: 5599.755

I get anxious about people going away, and I can want to over control,

Time: 5604.925

but I recognize this inside myself.

Time: 5607.175

I try and do my best to say, look, I don't want that to make me unhealthy.

Time: 5610.505

I want to recognize it.

Time: 5611.545

I want to find some happy medium where I honor that in me, but don't

Time: 5614.874

get carried away with it to the point where I try and over control and then

Time: 5618.755

I push my relationships away, right?

Time: 5620.815

So I say that because there's such a contrast between that kind of

Time: 5624.745

attachment insecurity, which can involve over control, and the kind

Time: 5629.345

of attachment insecurity that can involve compromise of the self.

Time: 5632.735

And we want to be very, very careful.

Time: 5634.905

We want to be careful.

Time: 5635.945

What is a trauma bond and what does it mean?

Time: 5638.005

We want to be careful.

Time: 5638.795

What is attachment insecurity and what does it mean?

Time: 5641.165

A certain kind of attachment insecurity can lead a person to make

Time: 5645.115

progressive compromises of self that are not good and healthy for them.

Time: 5650.965

Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about some of these unhealthy relationships from

Time: 5654.495

the other side, meaning from the side of the person who is, let's hope not, but

Time: 5659.735

in some cases exploited or who's being taken advantage of, or in this scenario

Time: 5665.435

of a narcissistic person or an abusive person is the one who's taking the abuse.

Time: 5671.835

Often, it seems the victim in that scenario will be truly

Time: 5675.515

stuck in that situation.

Time: 5677.645

They can't leave for financial reasons or kids or their own internal workings.

Time: 5682.055

Their psychological machinery has them locked into that in some way.

Time: 5686.265

And it's that locked in by psychological machinery that I'm interested in.

Time: 5690.285

And I think a lot of people are interested in, because from the

Time: 5693.685

outside we just look at that and say, why doesn't the person leave?

Time: 5698.454

Why don't they just leave?

Time: 5700.215

But clearly there's something about that "situation" that works for them.

Time: 5706.185

And by works for them, I don't mean that it's adaptive, clearly it's

Time: 5709.135

maladaptive, but that works for them.

Time: 5711.765

The possibility I raised earlier perhaps is relevant here.

Time: 5715.145

Maybe it works for them because they know that the narcissist gets some sort of

Time: 5720.475

internal reward for engaging in this kind of dynamic and therefore won't leave.

Time: 5725.985

And the other person not leaving is of more value to them than feeling safe.

Time: 5731.115

Even so, it's trading one form of safety for another.

Time: 5734.985

Or perhaps the victim, as we're calling them in this scenario, is somebody

Time: 5739.275

who feels a great sense of reward by serving somebody more powerful than them.

Time: 5745.625

This raises all sorts of interesting questions, perhaps about power

Time: 5748.665

dynamics as well, which I certainly have questions about.

Time: 5751.874

But what are some examples of the internal workings of such a person that reside

Time: 5757.815

within those bins of structure of self or function of self that would put someone

Time: 5762.935

into that sort of situation and lead them to stay in that kind of situation?

Time: 5768.315

Paul Conti: Well, any situation like that, if it's, as you say, working for a

Time: 5772.695

person, which at times we see that from t he outside because things continue

Time: 5777.055

to go along and things continue to go forward, b ut that only works for someone

Time: 5782.705

if t hey don't have the understanding, the empowerment, t hat we would wish

Time: 5788.244

for anyone and everyone to have.

Time: 5791.074

So what is going on inside leads that person to feel a sense of an inability

Time: 5798.385

to change, whether they can't see their way out of it or they kind of could, but

Time: 5802.495

could never navigate to it, and there's a problem there if that's working for

Time: 5808.115

someone, b ecause we're talking about something that's exploitive, right?

Time: 5811.654

That's abusive regardless of how it's abusive.

Time: 5814.895

And I think, I believe, that can only happen in the context of being

Time: 5820.275

demoralized or the circumstances of being so disempowered.

Time: 5825.265

If someone just can't go 10 feet from home, like there are situations

Time: 5828.324

of outrageous amounts of oppression of a person where the person

Time: 5833.975

just cannot choose differently.

Time: 5835.985

And there are situations where we, as stewards of all of us, where

Time: 5840.045

the government may intervene, for example, ideally, right, as someone

Time: 5843.035

would come in and help that person.

Time: 5844.765

But barring that kind of outlier, a person would only be in that situation

Time: 5850.335

in the context of being demoralized.

Time: 5852.955

And that demoralization would come from too low a drive for assertion,

Time: 5859.865

being proactive aggression, right?

Time: 5862.215

That that drive, its realization, is too low.

Time: 5866.314

And if we give people the understanding and we give them the help, the means, they

Time: 5873.165

don't have to stay in abusive situations.

Time: 5875.545

Like we see this, in situations where our society will intervene or someone helpful

Time: 5880.695

will intervene, some person or entity will intervene and help a person, help

Time: 5885.864

that person to understand what's going on inside of them, that leads them to feel

Time: 5892.115

that things can't be better, they can't do better, or that they're not worth

Time: 5895.624

better, or whatever that may be, and help them to find the empowerment, to then

Time: 5901.784

navigate themselves out of the situation.

Time: 5905.175

And here again, I think it's not just agency, but it's

Time: 5908.555

agency plus gratitude, right?

Time: 5910.985

Including gratitude for having a self that could leave a situation.

Time: 5914.715

When people are in situations like that, we talk about people as beaten down.

Time: 5920.524

It's a way to kind of capture what I think that feels like and how much suffering

Time: 5926.375

there is in those situations to be in that place and to not have the agency

Time: 5932.955

to get out of it, then the person is not feeling a sense of gratitude for self.

Time: 5937.225

They feel so bad about self that there's nothing to be grateful for.

Time: 5941.325

And there is so much to be grateful for.

Time: 5944.055

We could go through any person in a situation like that, and we could list

Time: 5947.725

wonderful things about that person, adaptive things about that person, kind

Time: 5951.095

things about that person, diligent things.

Time: 5953.355

There are things like that in every person.

Time: 5956.704

But if the person can't see that, they can't attach to that, they can't have the

Time: 5961.515

agency and gratitude, then they stay in a situation that is really defined by the

Time: 5968.815

agency and gratitude, and therefore that aggressive assertion, proactive drive

Time: 5973.574

being expressed at such a low level.

Time: 5977.385

Andrew Huberman: I can see how a healthy relationship could exist in relative

Time: 5982.375

isolation, not complete isolation.

Time: 5984.885

And here again, I'm referring to or thinking about a romantic relationship.

Time: 5988.664

I can see how a healthy romantic relationship could exist in relative

Time: 5992.704

isolation, a few friends, some contact with family members, or in great

Time: 5999.965

connectivity with friends and family and neighbors, etc., and still be a

Time: 6004.655

really great romantic relationship.

Time: 6006.454

Paul Conti: Sure.

Time: 6007.704

Andrew Huberman: I can also see how the sorts of relationships that we

Time: 6009.795

happen to be focusing on at this moment, which are these unhealthy

Time: 6012.495

dynamics, are made far worse by lack of connectivity to outsiders.

Time: 6018.905

In fact, a previous guest on this podcast was David Buss, who's a

Time: 6022.215

professor of evolutionary psychology down at the University of Texas,

Time: 6025.035

Austin, and he talked about some of his research into the dark triad.

Time: 6028.575

These are narcissistic, machiavellian, sometimes also sociopathic

Time: 6032.835

individuals, and how that plays out in romantic relationships.

Time: 6036.315

And it's a terrible thing, but an important thing to understand given the

Time: 6041.835

unfortunate frequency that that occurs.

Time: 6043.895

But one of the things that I remember so clearly from that discussion with

Time: 6048.435

David Buss was that even when there isn't sociopathy or a strong desire to

Time: 6054.635

destroy the other, that in these sorts of relationships, there's often an

Time: 6058.385

attempt to isolate the person, first by isolating them from their family, also

Time: 6064.335

from friends and coworkers, but all with the goal of convincing that person

Time: 6068.795

that no one else would want them as a way to make them "voluntarily" stay.

Time: 6075.204

In other words, to undermine their sense of safety, to ramp up

Time: 6079.015

their sense of anxiety, except in the presence of that individual.

Time: 6083.194

And I'm remembering that now because as we're talking about,

Time: 6086.825

why wouldn't somebody just leave?

Time: 6088.295

Why wouldn't they just tap into that agency and gratitude?

Time: 6091.995

It's clear that the oppressor in this kind of relationship has a real incentive to

Time: 6098.245

try and undermine agency and gratitude, because, of course, with those, they

Time: 6103.405

would be revealed for what they are and the person would feel unable to leave.

Time: 6107.705

Taking us back once again to the critical need to cultivate agency and

Time: 6112.075

gratitude, not just in unhealthy, but certainly in healthy relationships.

Time: 6117.105

Paul Conti: Right, and I think the principle here is that darkness

Time: 6120.545

always favors the oppressor.

Time: 6123.115

So the oppressor wishes for darkness.

Time: 6126.355

So you want to isolate that person because when people see that things

Time: 6130.945

are better for someone else, they realize things can be better.

Time: 6135.864

When people are told by someone that they're worthwhile or they're

Time: 6139.405

funny or they're pretty or they're smart, or whatever the case may

Time: 6142.045

be, they may take that inside.

Time: 6144.445

They may take inside, oh, maybe I am, I'm handsome and smart, maybe.

Time: 6149.305

Or they start thinking about that.

Time: 6150.715

They're very basic concepts that allow a person to entertain new

Time: 6157.235

ways to look at themselves, right?

Time: 6159.605

So the person who's oppressing wants that person to live in darkness.

Time: 6163.875

They don't want them to see that there can be better.

Time: 6167.015

They don't want them to be directly told that they're better than how things are.

Time: 6172.245

And that same darkness on the outside, say the lights are out

Time: 6176.065

around the relationship is the goal of the oppressor on the inside.

Time: 6180.855

Now, again, the oppressor may know this and be doing it consciously, but often

Time: 6184.385

this gets played out in unconscious ways, like the constant denigration of someone.

Time: 6188.345

A person isn't saying inside, gosh, I'm trying to reduce their agency, their

Time: 6193.225

aggressive drive, really down to zero.

Time: 6195.745

But that's what they're doing.

Time: 6196.805

Somewhere inside, there's a knowing of that, even if it's an unconscious knowing.

Time: 6201.385

And then the impact of that kind of abuse over time is a lower and lower and

Time: 6208.124

lower ability to bring oneself to bear, less proactive, aggressive, assertive,

Time: 6214.125

lower sense of agency and gratitude.

Time: 6216.755

That's really the definition of being demoralized.

Time: 6220.905

And that kind of abuse is always promoting demoralization, because demoralization

Time: 6226.165

is the darkness on the inside.

Time: 6228.625

Just as envy is too, demoralization is a form of darkness on the inside.

Time: 6233.985

Envy is no less dark.

Time: 6235.785

Envy may be a lot more active, but in both cases, there's no

Time: 6241.055

knowledge, there's no growth, there's no wisdom, there's no learning.

Time: 6244.274

So they're the states of darkness.

Time: 6247.245

And what can happen in a way that's really so tragic to think about is you

Time: 6251.265

often can have an abuser, an oppressor, who is living in total darkness inside,

Time: 6258.425

living through the lens of envy.

Time: 6261.735

And then you can have a person who is being oppressed, who is being exploited,

Time: 6265.935

who is living in darkness, but they're living in the darkness of demoralization.

Time: 6271.335

And that's a very sad thing to say, to imagine, and it's been a

Time: 6276.465

very, very sad thing to see, right?

Time: 6278.784

If you do clinical psychiatry for long enough, you see a lot of this,

Time: 6283.504

and it doesn't have to be this way.

Time: 6285.975

Even the people who are oppressing have it within them the majority

Time: 6289.995

of time to make things better.

Time: 6291.685

And we do see that.

Time: 6292.765

I took care of a man a long time ago who had been terribly abusive to his

Time: 6297.865

family and it was always unclear to me, it had happened years before that

Time: 6303.855

he just understood, and again, I never understood what happened, that he got

Time: 6309.994

it and the man really made change again.

Time: 6313.124

I don't know what the circumstance was that made that motivation to him, but he

Time: 6315.955

went back and looked at himself, and he went back and looked at how his father

Time: 6320.655

oppressed and terrorized the family and how he just did it automatically.

Time: 6325.645

Because what was rooted in his own fear of vulnerability, and he's going

Time: 6329.255

to lose his family and not be a man anymore unless he oppresses them.

Time: 6332.475

He recognized all of it in him, and he had changed it so dramatically.

Time: 6337.475

He had removed himself from the family system.

Time: 6339.985

And when I got to know him, it was years later and he was reintegrating

Time: 6344.505

back into the system because there had been such prolonged change.

Time: 6348.555

And he had communicated to the family his understanding of self.

Time: 6352.565

So, it's not impossible.

Time: 6354.625

Even someone who is abusing, oppressing, coming through a

Time: 6357.765

narcissistic character structure.

Time: 6359.825

There's no therapeutic nihilism here.

Time: 6362.635

Things can change and things can change in the oppressor, which

Time: 6366.105

isn't excusing that, right?

Time: 6368.305

I mean, a person who's doing things is morally culpable.

Time: 6372.495

They often are criminally, legally culpable.

Time: 6374.535

So that is all true, just as t he ability to change is true.

Time: 6378.705

And then the person we think about more commonly in this situation, of course,

Time: 6382.994

is the person who's being oppressed.

Time: 6384.905

And there can be change there, too.

Time: 6387.335

But a problem is how hard it can be.

Time: 6390.364

The impact of the isolation, and also the dearth of resources to really help people.

Time: 6396.875

It's an actual true story of a woman who I believed with all my heart could

Time: 6402.255

get out of the cyclic abusive situation she was in if she had a carburetor.

Time: 6408.395

A carburetor, right.

Time: 6410.395

She had a car.

Time: 6411.555

The car didn't function.

Time: 6412.765

She had a place to go where others wouldn't know that she was there.

Time: 6417.755

And the problem was just a few hundred dollars to change the carburetor.

Time: 6421.645

But it's like there's no place to go.

Time: 6423.105

There's no resources.

Time: 6424.245

We as a society don't help people.

Time: 6426.965

Now, it may be that someone helped that woman and got her a carburetor

Time: 6430.275

and she drove away, right?

Time: 6431.925

But it shows how we can bring ourselves to bear as a society to

Time: 6436.265

offer people help, which sometimes is like the lifeline the person needs.

Time: 6441.395

And maybe that person really needs a safe house or something very

Time: 6445.195

dramatic, or they need a carburetor to get away from being terrorized.

Time: 6449.655

But a lot of times it's just community support structures, good structures

Time: 6454.565

around people in communities that can offer them support in situations that

Time: 6458.985

may be less dramatic, opportunities for interconnection, which sometimes

Time: 6462.665

people can find through social venues or through religiously affiliated venues.

Time: 6467.765

But the idea that community support systems on all levels

Time: 6471.505

make a huge difference.

Time: 6474.244

There's another level, right, beyond the relationship, right?

Time: 6476.395

It's the society, it's the culture.

Time: 6479.014

And that's how we, on that next level of emergence, beyond the individual

Time: 6483.045

relationships, can foster goodness, can foster health in each and every one of us.

Time: 6490.095

Andrew Huberman: How do some of these same dynamics play out

Time: 6492.295

in non-romantic relationships?

Time: 6494.525

So, for instance, in the workplace, I was weaned in academic laboratories, so

Time: 6500.075

what's most familiar to me are, gosh, unfortunately, numerous examples where

Time: 6505.615

people working in laboratories, not the same as mine, because I've been very

Time: 6509.065

fortunate to have amazing benevolent mentors, quirky and outrageous at

Time: 6514.874

times, but benevolent nonetheless.

Time: 6517.435

But others around me have been in laboratories where, for instance, the

Time: 6521.015

workload was just ridiculously high.

Time: 6523.505

Like the demand far exceeded what any person could do.

Time: 6526.704

And if somebody had, God forbid, a cold or children, it was near

Time: 6532.614

impossible to impossible that they could meet the standard there.

Time: 6536.125

Or stress dynamics, so pressure cooker dynamics, that made it what

Time: 6543.135

anyone would call a toxic environment.

Time: 6545.525

You see this also in law firms.

Time: 6547.275

You see it in companies.

Time: 6548.475

You see it in families.

Time: 6549.645

You see it in friendship circles, right?

Time: 6551.975

I mean, how many movies are about teens oppressing one another through

Time: 6557.595

bullying and ridicule and practical jokes that are anything but funny, right,

Time: 6563.865

that are downright destructive, okay?

Time: 6565.435

And on and on.

Time: 6567.185

And so often the victims in these cases, if it's not a Hollywood movie,

Time: 6572.615

feel as if that's their only choice.

Time: 6575.185

Because to leave is to essentially have no other options, right?

Time: 6580.405

It's not that the only option is to stay.

Time: 6582.975

It's that to leave is essentially to leave science.

Time: 6586.585

Because these people in positions of power have the louder

Time: 6589.305

voice, they have the megaphone.

Time: 6590.645

They write the letters of recommendation, the law firms.

Time: 6593.475

People talk.

Time: 6596.055

As I kind of spool this out in a long form question, I'm realizing I

Time: 6600.505

can't think of a single exception.

Time: 6602.305

Like, as long as there are going to be people interacting and people talking

Time: 6606.325

about their interactions and people in positions of power, this sort of

Time: 6610.955

dynamic is going to take place, right?

Time: 6613.185

Paul Conti: Absolutely.

Time: 6613.555

Anytime you have a closed system without accountability, you're just rolling

Time: 6618.655

the dice for that kind of oppression.

Time: 6622.415

We need accountability.

Time: 6624.075

Think about theoretically what should have happened there.

Time: 6626.725

There should be higher order accountability, whether it's in a company

Time: 6630.615

or a university or wherever it may be.

Time: 6632.805

There should be higher order accountability that

Time: 6635.275

is reasonable and rational.

Time: 6636.925

So it's not then acting in a top down way that would be over controlling,

Time: 6641.325

telling exactly what you can and can't say or what you can and can't do.

Time: 6644.275

And sometimes there's too much rigidity that c an be enacted top down.

Time: 6648.715

But the problem runs both ways.

Time: 6650.744

If there's no accountability from the bottom up, then that person

Time: 6654.815

is just simply stuck, right?

Time: 6657.625

Why?

Time: 6657.975

Because the system we've put into place has failed.

Time: 6661.875

And this is where we're talking now about not just individual

Time: 6665.705

relationships, two people relationships.

Time: 6667.735

But now we start talking about systems of people.

Time: 6669.935

And systems of people are another level of emergence with a personality, so to

Time: 6674.374

speak, an environment all their own.

Time: 6676.235

You can know everything there is to know about each person in the system.

Time: 6679.055

You don't know about the system, but what you do know is that

Time: 6683.135

accountability is necessary.

Time: 6685.705

I mean, probably if we added up all the examples in history, we'd have

Time: 6690.795

to talk about them over 1000 years.

Time: 6692.985

How many examples do we have that closed systems without accountability

Time: 6697.495

are just rolling the dice?

Time: 6698.715

They breed oppression.

Time: 6700.795

This is true.

Time: 6702.395

And I've been at several different places.

Time: 6703.865

So I'm not trying to implicate this any one place versus another, but I

Time: 6708.525

was part of a medical treatment team.

Time: 6710.614

So this is a hierarchical medical treatment team of maybe seven people,

Time: 6715.225

give or take one, depending upon the circumstances, where there was physical

Time: 6718.805

abuse going on in the treatment team.

Time: 6721.815

It's true, and I'm not saying this in some exaggerated manner where somebody brushed

Time: 6728.595

up too close to someone and they slipped.

Time: 6730.565

No, hurting someone on the treatment team.

Time: 6734.145

Two different people who are being hurt by someone, seniors at a major

Time: 6739.575

university in a clinical setting.

Time: 6742.345

Again, it's not like that's the be all and end all, but you think about the alleged.

Time: 6746.755

The sophistication of the people in the system, the alleged empowerment

Time: 6750.255

of the people in the situation, which did not put a stop to that.

Time: 6754.445

So we need to have accountability.

Time: 6757.175

The accountability has to be reasonable.

Time: 6759.455

It doesn't mean over control, but it doesn't mean under control either.

Time: 6763.624

And if that person is being overworked, as you described, with no way of

Time: 6767.635

winning, or harmed on a medical team, and there's no way that that person can

Time: 6774.325

change that, the system has failed that person and failed them dramatically.

Time: 6778.445

And guess who suffers?

Time: 6779.994

Everyone does, right?

Time: 6781.744

That person suffers.

Time: 6784.315

And the science that's being done or the medical care that's being

Time: 6788.005

provided is important to all of us.

Time: 6790.245

Anyone could be the patient who is being taken care of by the team, where one

Time: 6796.135

person is hurting a couple of the others.

Time: 6797.925

You think that medical care is going to be optimized, right?

Time: 6800.815

Is the science going to be optimized, that we're utilizing to try and make our lives

Time: 6805.025

better, live longer, be in less pain?

Time: 6807.725

What's happening there is envy.

Time: 6809.355

That person who's oppressing other people is driven by envy, whether

Time: 6813.035

it's a narcissistic character structure that acts almost exclusively

Time: 6817.204

through envy, or it's envy that is in this person's life, in this way

Time: 6821.065

or not another way, does it matter?

Time: 6823.385

What's going on there is envy.

Time: 6825.135

And envy is nothing but destructive.

Time: 6827.605

The generative drive is nothing but productive.

Time: 6830.755

Envy is nothing but destructive.

Time: 6833.624

Andrew Huberman: Could you remind, for people that perhaps may not

Time: 6835.815

have heard episodes one and two yet, that envy is perhaps not just

Time: 6842.485

a desire to be like somebody else?

Time: 6844.705

That envy, in the context that we're discussing here, is

Time: 6847.075

something quite possibly different?

Time: 6849.704

Paul Conti: Right, and there's a varying lexicon, which is why it is

Time: 6852.285

important to define it, because I think people learn it in different ways.

Time: 6855.275

I've heard it talked about in different ways.

Time: 6857.844

So, to define that, there's a difference between jealousy and envy.

Time: 6862.055

And again, we could choose different words, but this is the

Time: 6863.99

way I learned it that's been most impactful, where jealousy is benign.

Time: 6869.425

It's the idea that if I see t hat you have something that I don't,

Time: 6873.284

then I think, oh, well, maybe I could work harder and get that thing.

Time: 6876.565

Or if I can't have that thing, like maybe a person is younger.

Time: 6881.025

Okay, I can't make myself younger, then I can think.

Time: 6883.535

Okay, through a lens of gratitude.

Time: 6885.745

Is that the only thing about me?

Time: 6887.685

I can't think of anything good about myself, right?

Time: 6889.815

Other than maybe I could be younger.

Time: 6891.195

I mean, if you come at that through the lens of health, it's like, it's okay.

Time: 6896.905

It can serve to motivate people to try harder, work harder, take a look at

Time: 6900.745

themselves and be more accepting of who they are and what their circumstances

Time: 6904.855

in life are, and what kind of control they can enact and what kind they can't.

Time: 6909.454

It's okay.

Time: 6911.534

Envy is different.

Time: 6914.345

Envy comes at that problem from the perspective that bringing

Time: 6922.015

down the other person is just as effective as bringing up the self.

Time: 6927.805

That's why envy is destructive.

Time: 6931.255

So someone who might see another person and they envy them their youth, right?

Time: 6940.175

They envy.

Time: 6940.775

They want that, and they want to bring that person down because

Time: 6945.185

I can't make myself younger.

Time: 6946.565

But then they realize I can't make that person older either.

Time: 6949.255

But they can do other things to them, right?

Time: 6951.795

They can sexually harass them.

Time: 6953.545

Maybe they can make terrible jokes that are really insulting

Time: 6957.765

and humiliating, maybe.

Time: 6959.785

There are all sorts of things a person can do to bring down someone else.

Time: 6963.675

The inaction of envy is destructive.

Time: 6967.135

And I truly believe this, that people who come at the world very

Time: 6972.205

strongly through envy, by and large, a narcissistic character structure.

Time: 6976.515

This is a small percentage of the population, but that small percentage

Time: 6981.885

does most of the damage on Earth.

Time: 6985.425

It's a strong thing to say, but when I think about studying political science

Time: 6990.655

and thinking about history and learning medicine and learning about psychiatry

Time: 6994.395

and sociology and really trying to look at the world and thinking, what drives

Time: 7000.594

a person on a medical team who's gotten to be a senior physician to physically

Time: 7005.395

hurt doctors lower on the hierarchy?

Time: 7007.795

Envy.

Time: 7009.085

That person feels terrible about themselves and then is being

Time: 7011.475

destructive to those people.

Time: 7013.275

Same thing.

Time: 7013.825

That same thing is at work in the lab.

Time: 7016.235

The same thing is at work when people start wars of destruction

Time: 7020.124

that just simply harm other people.

Time: 7022.105

And we can see no other sense of it.

Time: 7024.115

That from the individual setting all the way up to the world setting,

Time: 7029.255

we see the destruction of envy.

Time: 7031.235

And we also see it inside of us, because a person who's enacting envy in

Time: 7035.415

the world around them is never happy.

Time: 7037.694

There's no chance of happiness.

Time: 7039.625

Hence the idea of a bottomless pit.

Time: 7042.295

Whatever you get, let's say an envious person who wants more money.

Time: 7045.995

I want to have more money than anybody.

Time: 7047.545

I want everyone to have less money than me/ So then they come at the

Time: 7052.585

world t hrough the lens of greed.

Time: 7054.505

When they get more money, how long does that make them happy?

Time: 7057.685

Right?

Time: 7057.975

This doesn't mean money is bad or having money is bad.

Time: 7060.395

It just means if you're coming at the world through the lens of envy,

Time: 7064.025

and that lens is specifically focused on money, then you will be a greedy

Time: 7067.765

person who is never satisfied, even if you have 10 trillion dollars.

Time: 7071.864

So it's never good.

Time: 7073.174

It takes away from that person any possibility of happiness.

Time: 7077.905

And if you see people work with people with a narcissistic character

Time: 7081.375

structure, there can be a sense of a very brief happiness in the moment.

Time: 7086.155

Like, I'm happy because I realize I have something someone else doesn't.

Time: 7089.465

I'm happy because I'm thinking of myself.

Time: 7091.645

And even though I feel very insecure and vulnerable inside, I have a

Time: 7095.165

whole set of defense mechanisms that let me turn those tables around

Time: 7098.965

and then feel good about myself in a way that places me above others.

Time: 7102.275

Whatever's going on in that person, it may bring some very brief gratification

Time: 7107.455

in the moment, but that's not happiness.

Time: 7109.784

Hence the need for the gratification over and over and over again.

Time: 7113.725

Narcissistic people are the least secure, most definite people on Earth.

Time: 7119.685

They just have a phenomenally healthy defensive structure that comes about

Time: 7124.664

in order to try and protect them.

Time: 7126.715

That leads them to go to the opposite, some of what's called a reaction

Time: 7129.845

formation, going to the very opposite, denial, avoidance, rationalization,

Time: 7134.085

projection, very unhealthy defenses that then leads that person to protect

Time: 7140.245

themselves from any help while they are frantically trying to gain some goodness

Time: 7145.784

that makes them feel good for a split second and then disappears forever.

Time: 7149.475

Hence the tremendous predilection for destruction.

Time: 7154.145

Andrew Huberman: How do you, and how should we, think about

Time: 7156.465

power dynamics in relationships?

Time: 7158.715

And perhaps starting with romantic relationships?

Time: 7161.815

I've heard it said before that there's always power dynamics

Time: 7165.085

in relationships of all kinds.

Time: 7166.845

I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that, and I've

Time: 7170.745

also heard that that's particularly salient in romantic relationships,

Time: 7174.355

independent of whether or not it's a homosexual or heterosexual relationship.

Time: 7177.795

That there's always, to some extent or another, one leader and one follower.

Time: 7182.735

This is an interesting, perhaps a controversial idea, but I've

Time: 7188.115

heard it enough times that I want to know more about it.

Time: 7191.195

Paul Conti: Sure.

Time: 7192.445

Power dynamics, of course, are very important, but also something we tend

Time: 7197.685

to be so over reductionist about.

Time: 7199.424

I mean, this idea, think about that, that there's always a leader

Time: 7201.435

and there's always a follower.

Time: 7202.675

Every single relationship, right?

Time: 7204.745

That's true o n balance, we tend to be so reductionist, and then

Time: 7209.515

what we do is we miss the real power dynamics that are going on.

Time: 7213.675

Just like I had said in a previous episode, that I think my math minor

Time: 7217.295

has helped me the most for all of life.

Time: 7220.215

I think a power dynamics course that I took as an undergraduate

Time: 7223.455

in political science has helped me the most as a psychiatrist.

Time: 7227.534

Took it long before medical school, because that class taught

Time: 7231.035

me so much about power dynamics.

Time: 7233.085

I thought it was going to be about overt power, who has power over

Time: 7236.355

whom and tells whom to do what.

Time: 7238.025

Right?

Time: 7238.495

But what I learned is that so much of power dynamics are covert.

Time: 7242.305

They're under the surface, for example, they're the things that are not said.

Time: 7245.835

Something that was called at the time, at least, the issue of the non issue,

Time: 7249.704

where there's an issue between two people.

Time: 7251.994

Like, this person never takes out the garbage.

Time: 7254.665

That person always takes out the garbage.

Time: 7256.195

That person is resentful about it.

Time: 7258.715

Both of them know.

Time: 7259.765

But the person who always does it can't say so, because if they say so, the

Time: 7263.135

first person will punish them in some other way by not taking out the garbage.

Time: 7267.485

Then the place smells, that person goes to work, and the person

Time: 7269.825

who's at home has to take it out.

Time: 7271.364

Right.

Time: 7272.024

That's one example of the issue of the non issue.

Time: 7275.935

Other examples are where someone is looking and smiling and being really

Time: 7280.635

nice to someone who they know is going to physically harm them if they bring

Time: 7285.025

to light that they're actually not happy and don't feel good about that person.

Time: 7289.065

So, from the dramatic to the nondramatic, unstated power dynamics

Time: 7293.475

are going on all over the place.

Time: 7295.245

And they're in every single relationship.

Time: 7297.495

I mean, less a person is in a relationship with someone else

Time: 7299.745

and they're both comatose.

Time: 7301.695

I guess only one of them has to be comatose.

Time: 7303.855

There are power dynamics going on, but again, it doesn't mean

Time: 7307.194

that they're unhealthy, because there are always power dynamics.

Time: 7311.235

So then what are we looking for?

Time: 7313.305

And again, there are a lot of things we could look for, but we could talk

Time: 7316.105

about, really two primary things.

Time: 7318.704

One is, look for the nonobvious, and t wo is the give and take.

Time: 7325.444

So the first is even in our own relationships.

Time: 7328.235

Because it's interesting how many people will, say, talk about the

Time: 7331.895

power dynamics in their relationship.

Time: 7333.705

They're not always saying, here are the power dynamics in my relationship,

Time: 7337.215

but they're telling me about them.

Time: 7339.135

And they're telling me about the things that are overt.

Time: 7342.124

Right now, somewhere inside of them, they know that they can't really raise

Time: 7345.625

issue A, B, or C, or there'll be some retribution, whether it's small or large.

Time: 7349.795

Or they might even know everything's okay and that person is happy.

Time: 7353.095

But they know I'm not giving them room to say that they're not happy.

Time: 7355.965

And that could just mean if they say they're not happy, then I'll come home

Time: 7360.114

a couple of hours late the next day.

Time: 7361.864

And that person will feel some attachment insecurity because of that.

Time: 7364.555

And there are all sorts of ways t his can play out.

Time: 7367.905

But since so much of power dynamics are unstated or covert, kind of like the

Time: 7374.285

iceberg of conscious and unconscious, there's an iceberg of power dynamics.

Time: 7377.895

So, to think about including in one's own relationships, whether it's a neighbor,

Time: 7381.775

it's a friend, it's a work relationship, or most charged, it's romance.

Time: 7386.145

What's really going on between us?

Time: 7388.664

What's really going on between us?

Time: 7390.035

I'm not looking to tell myself lies.

Time: 7393.835

I know that I may not be able to understand all of it, but

Time: 7397.005

let me stop and think about it.

Time: 7398.635

And if you ask people to stop and do that, they can say,

Time: 7402.915

yeah, that's really not okay.

Time: 7405.235

Because sometimes they don't know that it's there, or they don't

Time: 7408.125

want to know that it's there.

Time: 7409.095

And the therapy work is trying to guide them to.

Time: 7412.265

There's an immense power disparity, maybe in the relationship when they're

Time: 7415.885

presenting, no, everything is equal.

Time: 7417.185

It's a good, supportive relationship.

Time: 7418.855

Hear that a lot?

Time: 7420.255

And of course, it's not always that there's something bad under the

Time: 7422.615

surface, but a lot of times there is.

Time: 7424.372

And even something mildly bad is not okay and can cause problems.

Time: 7428.145

And sometimes there's something very bad.

Time: 7429.805

So look for the nonobvious.

Time: 7431.835

And then the second is that give and take is a very good sign of health.

Time: 7437.545

Is a very good sign of health.

Time: 7438.645

So if a person can kind of see that there's give and take, and it might

Time: 7442.105

be about something as simple as.

Time: 7443.155

Like, who chooses where we go to dinner?

Time: 7444.994

Okay, sometimes one, sometimes the other.

Time: 7447.135

It depends who has a stronger feeling.

Time: 7448.735

Or it may be that person always decides where we go to dinner.

Time: 7451.745

But the other person's okay with it, and that person always decides what

Time: 7454.815

movie they want, the other person.

Time: 7456.805

So the idea that there's give and take, and then in periods of time where

Time: 7462.845

one person may be in a more difficult place, one person has a significant

Time: 7466.385

loss or an injury or an illness, then you see that that shifts a little bit.

Time: 7470.575

One person is giving more, right?

Time: 7472.955

But then, ultimately the idea is that's from the outside.

Time: 7476.735

If one person is giving more to the other, there's a generosity of spirit in

Time: 7480.985

both the giving and the accepting that leads them to then be stronger together.

Time: 7486.315

So even when people say, well, they're imbalances in some way.

Time: 7489.525

If you just look at what's going on day to day, but in a healthy relationship

Time: 7493.075

with high generative drive, the periods of imbalance strengthen the relationship.

Time: 7498.454

You see this with friends, where two p eople have a pretty equal

Time: 7501.265

friendship, and t hen one person has something difficult happen and

Time: 7504.665

the other person is there for them.

Time: 7506.194

What's true on the other side of that?

Time: 7507.895

They're better friends.

Time: 7509.785

And it's also why we often want to be interconnected when we're healthy.

Time: 7513.345

What if something bad happens to both of them?

Time: 7515.725

It's good to be interconnected, and friends a nd family

Time: 7517.795

can be supportive to us.

Time: 7520.565

The idea that give and take is healthy, I think, is very central.

Time: 7524.755

So just looking for evidence, it's often, if I don't understand what's going on

Time: 7528.425

in the relationship, maybe it's early in t he therapy or it's just been kind

Time: 7531.605

o f opaque, or I can't figure it out.

Time: 7533.555

I'm looking for, is there a give and take?

Time: 7535.415

Because then I'm going to think, okay, more likely than not, things are healthy.

Time: 7539.195

If I see an imbalance, whether the person knows it or not, I'm thinking,

Time: 7542.475

more likely than not, it's unhealthy.

Time: 7544.345

And then they're just clues along the pathway of my efforts to understand.

Time: 7551.225

Andrew Huberman: The non-obvious piece is really intriguing,

Time: 7554.005

as is the give and take.

Time: 7555.134

And I really appreciate that you brought up the give and take, because that's a

Time: 7558.694

very concrete place that we can all look and ask ourselves, even if people aren't

Time: 7563.755

in romantic relationships, like, what is the give and take in a given friendship?

Time: 7568.664

And as you mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to be scripted.

Time: 7571.055

One for one.

Time: 7571.765

One for one.

Time: 7573.324

Maybe it balances out over time, or maybe it doesn't.

Time: 7575.555

I mean, I've had friendships that have lasted many decades, even where I can

Time: 7582.225

honestly say I'm always the person to reach out to the other person but

Time: 7586.085

when they connect, they connect with such a depth of attention that I

Time: 7591.244

don't feel any deprivation whatsoever.

Time: 7593.095

In fact, I don't think I've ever considered that.

Time: 7594.815

I'm the person that always reaches out until today, and so

Time: 7597.325

it doesn't bother me whatsoever.

Time: 7598.545

I feel infinitely rewarded in the relationship.

Time: 7602.175

Like, it's generative, it feels generative, right?

Time: 7604.685

Paul Conti: It doesn't have to be equal, however one wants to define

Time: 7607.565

equal, but it has to be mutual.

Time: 7609.795

You're feeling goodness from the relationship.

Time: 7612.755

So is the other person.

Time: 7614.104

Okay.

Time: 7615.335

That's coming from that high generative place.

Time: 7618.805

And when we really, let's say we push that concept forward

Time: 7621.555

to where we want to be living.

Time: 7622.925

Not some pie in the sky, but agency and gratitude as verbs.

Time: 7627.485

The generative drive is very strongly expressed, and the other drives are

Time: 7632.204

subserving the generative drive.

Time: 7634.045

Then we get to the place where we really see it is true that it is

Time: 7638.175

better to give than to receive.

Time: 7641.135

The happiest people I see are the people who are giving.

Time: 7645.645

Now, of course, it feels great to receive, but it feels better to

Time: 7650.185

give because there's a goodness in the self, in the giving.

Time: 7653.455

And I remember seeing this as a child and being too young to understand it, b ut I

Time: 7657.839

was a little kid, I liked getting things.

Time: 7659.975

And as a little kid, I liked getting things more than I liked giving.

Time: 7662.805

Like, that's okay when you're a little kid.

Time: 7664.525

But what I did observe is that my maternal grandmother, who is very sweet and loving

Time: 7669.275

and caring, she loved giving, right?

Time: 7672.395

You give her presents.

Time: 7673.255

And we did.

Time: 7673.725

And she really liked getting presents.

Time: 7675.965

She loved giving.

Time: 7677.494

There was an excess of goodness.

Time: 7678.785

And then as I got older and I learned more, like who she had been in the

Time: 7681.735

community and how she had been to people.

Time: 7684.174

And I could see, and now, through the lens that there was such goodness

Time: 7689.325

in her, I think she's, for me, she's the shining model of goodness that I

Time: 7693.055

internalize as I aspire to be better.

Time: 7695.695

So then I think I want to be like that.

Time: 7698.195

I am more generative as I try and think more about giving than receiving.

Time: 7702.985

I'm not trying to say I'm some noble person or I'm being ascetic.

Time: 7706.265

I'm thinking that's a good way for u s all to feel right.

Time: 7709.335

Or someone, a very, very successful person that I consult to that is in my life,

Time: 7716.595

who talked about how he always makes inside of himself the best understanding

Time: 7722.825

of what's going on between him and another person, whether it's a very big

Time: 7726.215

financial deal or it's about power or it's personal and then gives a little bit.

Time: 7730.905

Always, where have we ended up?

Time: 7732.835

Let me give a little bit, right.

Time: 7734.615

And there's a person who's very, very s uccessful, very, very happy.

Time: 7738.045

But I would argue the goodness in him is why he's successful and happy.

Time: 7744.415

It's not that he's successful and therefore he's happy.

Time: 7746.665

Right.

Time: 7747.135

It's what's inside of him that fosters both of those good things.

Time: 7750.455

And he could be just as happy without the big success.

Time: 7752.885

Maybe he wouldn't.

Time: 7753.824

Maybe he wasn't minded to do that.

Time: 7756.085

And he grows a nice garden.

Time: 7757.684

He could be equally happy.

Time: 7758.875

But the point is the goodness in self, to be able to do that,

Time: 7764.595

to feel good about doing that.

Time: 7766.175

I feel better about giving that than I would have receiving that.

Time: 7770.034

That's pretty stark, right?

Time: 7771.675

It's something given to the other that I would have gotten right now,

Time: 7774.395

and we're in maybe a negotiation to give it feels better than to have it.

Time: 7779.105

Andrew Huberman: I'm sure there are many people thinking about

Time: 7781.335

individuals who are highly successful, who are not givers, who are takers.

Time: 7787.095

I do think those examples of takers, as I'm calling them, grab a lot of attention.

Time: 7793.165

But I know, at least within science and the other domains of life I've

Time: 7797.115

been in, that there are far more successful people who are also

Time: 7802.935

givers, even to a great extent.

Time: 7805.845

And of course, that doesn't mean that they're giving to the point

Time: 7808.055

of an inability to give further or to take care of themselves.

Time: 7812.034

The giving is part of taking care of themselves, but it's

Time: 7814.955

part of this generative cycle.

Time: 7817.365

It's not one thing.

Time: 7818.605

It's not a tit for tat.

Time: 7820.435

It's part of something that makes them feel good, makes others feel good.

Time: 7824.864

It's sort of anti transactional.

Time: 7827.385

And as we're talking about the self and interrelations between selves

Time: 7831.265

in these different relationship contexts today, this word

Time: 7835.335

transactional keeps coming to mind.

Time: 7837.925

And what I'm so aware of as you're describing what healthy selves and

Time: 7843.885

healthy relationships look like, is that it runs counter to pretty much

Time: 7848.104

everything that I've heard and that we hear in the world about relationships

Time: 7852.205

and about the relationship to self, meaning it's not transactional.

Time: 7856.695

It's really about a cycle.

Time: 7858.845

And we're using this word generative over and over in its specific context today.

Time: 7863.785

So I don't want to rob that word for a different purpose, but I'm imagining

Time: 7868.645

a sort of upward spiral in my mind, or perhaps something that's really

Time: 7872.905

like a circle of life that just keeps growing bigger and bigger and bigger.

Time: 7878.534

Maybe we could talk a little bit about this notion of

Time: 7880.775

relationships being transactional.

Time: 7882.885

I mean, it's such a loaded word, but I have a close friend who's married

Time: 7887.645

with more than a few children who told me the other day, I realized

Time: 7894.225

that it's all kind of transactional.

Time: 7896.395

Like they're extracting from me and I'm extracting from them, and it's

Time: 7900.035

benevolent because it's all good.

Time: 7901.345

And I thought, wow, this is really dreadful.

Time: 7905.655

No one wants to think that the closest relationships in

Time: 7907.925

their lives are transactional.

Time: 7910.475

And he was coming to that conclusion.

Time: 7911.925

I disagreed with him, and I don't know where that all sits for him right now.

Time: 7914.995

But maybe we could talk about the transactional versus non-transactional

Time: 7919.524

aspects of relationship, because we all want things.

Time: 7924.175

That's perfectly healthy.

Time: 7925.285

I believe we all experience disappointment and pleasure and relief,

Time: 7930.385

and sometimes major disappointment, pleasure, relief, et cetera.

Time: 7933.625

But what is the role of transaction in relationships?

Time: 7938.104

And how does psychiatry, how do you, and how should we think about that?

Time: 7942.595

Paul Conti: Well, we often get confused because there are transactions in every

Time: 7948.215

relationship, but that does not mean that every relationship is transactional.

Time: 7953.815

So if we think about what transactions are, we can think of

Time: 7957.125

in kind of the stereotypical way.

Time: 7959.245

So it can also be like, here's the transaction.

Time: 7961.915

I'll do the dishes, and you wash the clothes, right?

Time: 7963.985

Andrew Huberman: Or, for instance, I'll make the money, and the other

Time: 7967.015

person will raise the children.

Time: 7968.545

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 7969.695

So there are transactions.

Time: 7972.034

But that does not mean that the be all and end all of it are sort of

Time: 7976.525

hard hearted, calculated transactions.

Time: 7979.165

And transactions also occur in less obvious but equally important ways.

Time: 7984.425

So another way that transactions occur is right now I'm putting something out there.

Time: 7989.977

Because I'm saying something, right?

Time: 7991.604

And then at a point, I stop and I'm waiting for you to

Time: 7994.215

put something out there.

Time: 7995.225

And then I take in what you said, and we're doing something that

Time: 7998.075

in that sense is transactional.

Time: 8000.244

I'm waiting for you to give me something.

Time: 8001.615

I take it in, I process it, I give something back out to you.

Time: 8005.045

But that's not the be all and end all of it.

Time: 8009.045

So there are transactions, whether it's who's going to wash the dishes, who's

Time: 8013.525

going to do the clothes, or it's what d o I put out there that you take in, a nd

Time: 8016.901

what do you put out there that I take in?

Time: 8019.345

That there is something greater than something beyond the transactional.

Time: 8024.164

And there is some controversy to this, a thought that there really is

Time: 8028.874

a historical thought in the field.

Time: 8030.855

That there are just aggressive and pleasure drives in us, and

Time: 8035.545

that everything is transactional.

Time: 8037.914

Now, again, we don't really have a way of disproving that.

Time: 8041.385

I mean, there's not going to be some equation that disproves that.

Time: 8044.694

But I think it's entirely disproven by human experience.

Time: 8048.815

And there's so many, we could talk about an infinite number of resources

Time: 8055.155

to consider this, but just imagine the writings of Viktor Frankl and

Time: 8058.935

the writings and the theories around human interactions and psychological

Time: 8063.624

theories that have come of it.

Time: 8065.355

To think that everything is just transactional, it's a denial of the

Time: 8067.707

humanness in all of us that I think he just brought to the fore so strongly.

Time: 8073.505

But again, there could be nearly infinite resources throughout

Time: 8077.675

human history that say, hey, we're not entirely transactional.

Time: 8080.774

It's not just aggression and pleasure, but there's something more going on here.

Time: 8087.175

There's learning that feels good for the sake of learning.

Time: 8090.145

There's kindness that feels good for the sake of kindness.

Time: 8092.985

There's giving that feels good, because giving feels good.

Time: 8096.784

This is going on in us.

Time: 8098.135

It's going on when we're, like, loving children, for example, or loving animals.

Time: 8102.305

There's something inside of us that's not just transactional.

Time: 8106.785

And that's why I think what we're talking about is, if it's truth,

Time: 8111.954

it should all hang together, right?

Time: 8113.805

It must all hang together.

Time: 8114.915

And this is why there's an us over top of each individual that's in a relationship.

Time: 8122.145

This is why you can know everything about me.

Time: 8124.745

You can know everything about you, and you can know nothing about our friendship.

Time: 8128.075

Absolutely nothing, right?

Time: 8129.585

Because it's something different.

Time: 8131.735

And if it were all just transactional, there would be nothing different, right?

Time: 8135.674

And I think our experience as human beings, I know that to be true,

Time: 8140.425

because I just know that I don't always feel selfish about things.

Time: 8145.015

Like, maybe sometimes I do, and I do something nice because

Time: 8147.165

it'll make me look good.

Time: 8148.035

Like, okay, we're all human, right?

Time: 8149.715

But I know that there's good feeling from others towards me.

Time: 8154.355

At times, that's just about the good feeling.

Time: 8156.645

I know that there's that from me towards others.

Time: 8159.485

So that tells us, yes, there is something other than just the I.

Time: 8163.914

There is the we of dyads, right, of relationships, no matter whether they're

Time: 8168.835

work, family, friendship, relationship.

Time: 8171.225

And then there are the levels beyond that that are larger "we"s.

Time: 8175.485

The we of groups.

Time: 8179.225

Andrew Huberman: So if I understand correctly, it can be the case that

Time: 8182.624

one person makes the majority or all of the income for a family, the other

Time: 8186.465

person raises the children, takes care of the majority of the home.

Time: 8190.085

And of course, there is a transaction there, a set of transactions, but that

Time: 8195.695

it's in service to something larger that really isn't transactional.

Time: 8199.374

I'm just stealing your words here, but if I were to expand on that,

Time: 8204.515

just to make sure I understand that the non-transactional thing that

Time: 8208.535

emerges from that is generative, because it's a family, right?

Time: 8213.425

It's a family that everyone can extract growth and pleasure and meaning from.

Time: 8218.545

And just because the roles are divided as such, it doesn't necessarily mean

Time: 8222.845

that the relationship is defined as transactional in the sense

Time: 8227.115

that it's less than it could be.

Time: 8229.335

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 8231.035

If you think about what's really being transacted.

Time: 8233.115

So, say one person is out in the world and is making an income.

Time: 8236.805

The other person is, say, taking care of the family and taking care of the home.

Time: 8240.315

What's being transacted?

Time: 8241.534

Well, the person who's making the money is sharing the money, right?

Time: 8245.715

In that sense, transacting some of the money to the other person.

Time: 8248.585

Like, you get to have some of it, too.

Time: 8249.985

You get to have some of the benefit from it.

Time: 8251.555

And the person who is at home, who's taking care of the family

Time: 8254.954

in the home, saying, you get to have some of that too, right?

Time: 8257.954

You get to come home, the children are taken care of, right?

Time: 8260.575

The home is taken care of.

Time: 8261.444

So both are transacting something to the other.

Time: 8264.795

I mean, that's the truth of it.

Time: 8266.825

If you look at what's really going on there, one person's getting the

Time: 8269.598

benefit of money they didn't earn, the other person's getting benefits.

Time: 8271.954

They have childcare they didn't do or pay for.

Time: 8274.924

They're not paying for childcare, they're sharing resources.

Time: 8277.735

So, yes, that's true.

Time: 8280.205

But is that it?

Time: 8282.735

Are these two robots?

Time: 8284.605

One is the money making robot, and the other is the childcare robot.

Time: 8287.665

That's not what's going on.

Time: 8290.005

The way we want to envision that, i f we have two healthy people with

Time: 8293.035

g enerative drives is they love one another, they're creating something better

Time: 8297.214

than they could create on their own.

Time: 8298.745

In fact, they've created children, they've created a home together, and

Time: 8303.045

they're nurturing that family together.

Time: 8305.215

That is generative.

Time: 8306.915

And because it's generative, it can also be flexible.

Time: 8310.045

So let's say the person who's at home says, I need to do some

Time: 8313.425

things outside of the house, right?

Time: 8315.344

Or let's say the person who's out working thinks, oh, my God, I feel overwhelmed.

Time: 8318.885

And I like to switch to a better job, but that job's halftime.

Time: 8321.495

I could be half in the house, right?

Time: 8324.335

This is where people can come together in the same way.

Time: 8327.165

We talked about the two and an eight on the sex drive or sexuality scale, where

Time: 8331.595

people then can find compromises, right?

Time: 8334.104

And if one really wants to stay out of the home all the time, but the person in

Time: 8337.435

the home wants to leave the home, well, they find a way that that works, right?

Time: 8341.435

Because their care for one another, the generative spirit that is

Time: 8344.695

in them individually and as a couple, lets them nurture that.

Time: 8349.425

And one isn't interested in oppressing the other.

Time: 8351.865

I'm not going to leave my job.

Time: 8352.695

You stay at home or I'm staying at home.

Time: 8354.805

You stay out there.

Time: 8355.514

It's like, okay, let's think about things.

Time: 8357.335

Let's communicate, right?

Time: 8358.605

That's how the generative drive not only makes that awesome, like the

Time: 8363.374

five isn't the compromised position between the eight and the two.

Time: 8365.705

The five is awesome right here.

Time: 8367.685

The transactional aspects are awesome because of the generative aspects of

Time: 8372.275

what comes of it far more than either of those people could make on their own.

Time: 8376.965

I mean, one would say it's not so obvious.

Time: 8379.275

Maybe if one makes X amount of dollars, each could make half X.

Time: 8383.055

That's not what we're talking about.

Time: 8384.085

Neither of them can create that family on their own.

Time: 8388.645

Andrew Huberman: It seems that so much of what we're talking about

Time: 8390.635

relies on the hallmarks that we always hear make up good relationships of

Time: 8396.145

all kinds, romantic and otherwise.

Time: 8399.085

Things like communication, listening, generosity, all the stuff that we all know

Time: 8405.424

that we should bring to relationship and hopefully are getting from relationships.

Time: 8408.835

And that if we're not, that we should probably request

Time: 8411.895

from others in polite ways.

Time: 8415.385

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 8416.824

I have one word for that.

Time: 8418.795

Kindergarten.

Time: 8420.435

Right? Think about that.

Time: 8421.645

We learned that in kindergarten.

Time: 8423.374

What you're describing is so simple.

Time: 8425.865

That's why it's so high up on the, this is what the geyser is pushing up.

Time: 8429.765

It's high up from the two pillars, because what you're talking about is

Time: 8434.085

simple generosity of spirit, giving rather than taking, being kind to

Time: 8438.105

others, letting things go, feeling good about yourself, even if you fall down.

Time: 8442.034

We learn this in kindergarten.

Time: 8443.695

So we must, somewhere inside of us, really value it, but then we let it go.

Time: 8448.055

We make things overly complex.

Time: 8450.045

And this idea that in many ways we should go back to kindergarten

Time: 8456.545

because there's a purity there.

Time: 8458.665

Children at an age where they can learn, and then we bring a nice kind

Time: 8462.325

of learning to them and a nurturing to them and we can bring it to

Time: 8465.495

ourselves, too, so that we simplify that which has become overly complex.

Time: 8470.704

We simplify because trauma makes complexity.

Time: 8473.235

Having to just make one's way in the world is complicated, right?

Time: 8477.045

So things get more and more complicated and we lose the simple roots of

Time: 8481.195

goodness or the goodness of simplicity, and we can come back to that.

Time: 8486.405

So I couldn't resist when you said, oh, these simple, these basic things.

Time: 8491.335

That's the point of it, because that's where agency and gratitude

Time: 8494.894

and the generative drive, that's where they live in the simplicity.

Time: 8497.765

Andrew Huberman: I'm glad you mentioned kindergarten.

Time: 8499.565

It brought me back to images of kindergarten where, yeah, as far

Time: 8504.345

as I can remember now, there were all the critical components of

Time: 8506.975

a great generative environment, adults who really cared about us.

Time: 8510.324

Fortunately, there were snack time with oranges, so nourishing food,

Time: 8514.614

there was nap time in the afternoon.

Time: 8516.545

Like, these things are all things--

Time: 8517.545

Paul Conti: You got some exercise, explore.

Time: 8519.175

Andrew Huberman: You could take a guinea pig home on the weekends.

Time: 8521.595

They had this guinea pig.

Time: 8522.624

I think there were several guinea pigs, but they kept trying to convince

Time: 8525.835

us it was the same guinea pig because they would allow one family to take

Time: 8530.495

home the guinea pig each weekend.

Time: 8531.865

And sometimes I think it didn't work out quite so well.

Time: 8533.945

But anyway, the guinea pig was a pervasive feature.

Time: 8536.885

So you learned to take care of things.

Time: 8538.315

And in all seriousness, now that I step back from it, there's nothing

Time: 8541.795

more generative, it seems, than a kindergarten classroom environment,

Time: 8545.985

or we should say a healthy kindergarten classroom environment.

Time: 8548.454

It's all about support of others.

Time: 8550.995

And if we go to the pillars, the structure of self and the function of self, surely

Time: 8556.445

there's a lot going on at home, too.

Time: 8557.925

But think about what's salient.

Time: 8559.935

It's learning messages of self confidence, like instilling those.

Time: 8566.475

It's behaviors that are based on strivings and hopefulness.

Time: 8570.144

It's all the good things.

Time: 8571.685

Yes, all the good things.

Time: 8573.135

And so, as I was thinking about communication and all these good things,

Time: 8578.465

that clearly kindergarten is a wonderful template for, in all seriousness

Time: 8582.425

I think, is an amazing template.

Time: 8585.325

I'm thinking about what gets in the way, and of course, trauma can get in the

Time: 8589.715

way, and we should talk about that more.

Time: 8593.055

But it seems to me that one of the things that gets in the way of asking for what

Time: 8597.164

we want, of hearing requests of us in the way that is going to bring about the

Time: 8601.505

most generative goodness, is anxiety.

Time: 8605.325

It's like you're tired from a long day and someone mentions,

Time: 8608.715

we have to take the trash out.

Time: 8611.505

I was at work all day.

Time: 8614.475

That kind of thing or earlier you were talking about the issue of the

Time: 8619.114

non issue in terms of power dynamics.

Time: 8623.545

Well, let's just say I've had the experience before in relationship of

Time: 8626.575

feeling like if I make a request or I have a quote unquote complaint about

Time: 8631.875

something, that the other person is going to be so upset about the fact

Time: 8634.925

that they didn't do something well, that it's going to be three days of

Time: 8639.555

just diminished happiness for everybody.

Time: 8642.215

So I just assume, not deal with it, right?

Time: 8645.455

So when we hear the word anxiety, I think we often think about the person,

Time: 8648.155

like quaking about public speaking or like getting the circuits in

Time: 8652.725

their brain hijacked that were only designed for saber toothed tigers.

Time: 8655.725

But anxiety seems to serve both a very important functional role

Time: 8660.455

in modern life that has nothing to do with physical threat.

Time: 8664.095

But it also seems to be the feature that if not kept in check, if we can't

Time: 8668.805

regulate our own anxiety, I'm realizing there's no way that we're going to

Time: 8673.255

be in a position to ask for what we need and what we want, to hear what's

Time: 8677.485

needed of us and what others want.

Time: 8679.915

In other words, anxiety seems like a major barrier to the generative drive.

Time: 8686.624

Paul Conti: I think the place to start is i f you show me a person who has

Time: 8690.455

no anxiety, I'll show you a mannequin.

Time: 8693.934

We all have anxiety in us.

Time: 8695.795

Remember, it's just a word, right?

Time: 8697.845

What are we getting at?

Time: 8698.615

We're getting at a sense of tension or a sense of disquiet inside of

Time: 8704.575

us that we would like to solve, we would like to ease, if we could.

Time: 8709.534

It is not helpful or healthy if we have very, very low levels of

Time: 8714.465

that, because then our strivings are certainly going to suffer.

Time: 8718.225

There's not a lot of motivation to go make change in the

Time: 8722.385

world, a change in our lives.

Time: 8723.784

So if we have too little of that tension, that doesn't go well.

Time: 8728.424

And of course, that maps to a low assertiveness,

Time: 8733.755

aggression, proactive drive.

Time: 8736.325

There are other ways that could show i tself, but it maps very

Time: 8738.885

clearly, I think, to that.

Time: 8740.855

And that's not good for us on the other end of the spectrum.

Time: 8744.585

We're much more concerned with the other end of the spectrum because a

Time: 8747.184

lot of anxiety feels very, very bad and it feels very bad right now, right?

Time: 8751.355

So our high levels of anxiety, they narrow our cognitive spectrum.

Time: 8756.335

They narrow our ability to think about what's going on around

Time: 8760.574

us, to think about ourselves.

Time: 8762.395

So the idea with anxiety is to recognize, hey, we all have

Time: 8767.135

it, and we can call it anxiety.

Time: 8768.995

We can call it tension.

Time: 8769.985

We can call it whatever we want t o, but we want that to

Time: 8772.755

be i n a healthy place, right?

Time: 8776.155

Which comes, of course, back to the self, that if my levels of anxiety are very

Time: 8781.735

high and therefore it's causing problems in my relationship, like maybe I'm

Time: 8788.255

always asking my partner if we're okay.

Time: 8790.135

That happens a lot.

Time: 8790.915

Like, are we okay?

Time: 8791.645

Are you happy?

Time: 8792.704

Because there's a lot of anxiety in me.

Time: 8794.615

The first place to go is to look at myself.

Time: 8797.335

So we could say, oh, I have attachment insecurity.

Time: 8800.135

That's just stating the obvious, right?

Time: 8801.825

Andrew Huberman: Or, sorry to interrupt, but a very common one

Time: 8804.915

nowadays that I think is new in the course of human history is

Time: 8809.985

the tugging the line phenomenon.

Time: 8811.405

You text somebody, you're thinking about them, you don't hear back,

Time: 8815.085

and then tension starts to mount.

Time: 8817.324

And then depending on the context, you may either be concerned about

Time: 8821.755

the person or even suspicious about what the person is up to.

Time: 8824.455

I mean, here it's very contextual, right?

Time: 8826.565

And it depends on the history of both individuals and that relationship.

Time: 8830.115

But then the person will reach back eventually and it either

Time: 8833.645

will bring relief or relief with some resent, like, where were you?

Time: 8837.165

What happened?

Time: 8839.005

This is very, very common.

Time: 8841.675

So much so, in fact, that I've come to learn in talking to

Time: 8845.465

others, and this is the classic...

Time: 8847.225

I have a friend who, but really others who are in the landscape

Time: 8850.755

of looking for a relationship.

Time: 8852.265

And there are people I know well who go through a lot of effort to set an

Time: 8858.705

intermittent schedule of response.

Time: 8861.135

Like to not give the other person the sense that they always

Time: 8863.755

respond with short latency.

Time: 8865.275

Because, indeed, sometimes they will be able to do that and sometimes they won't.

Time: 8868.914

What they're basically trying to do is make sure that the person doesn't, they're

Time: 8871.765

actually trying to take care of the other person in addition to themselves.

Time: 8875.215

Because I think we come to expect a certain latency of response

Time: 8877.975

with certain individuals.

Time: 8878.885

And if we don't hear back with that particular latency of response,

Time: 8883.105

our own anxiety starts to pick up.

Time: 8884.755

And it can be quite damaging to a relationship, in particular to the

Time: 8889.124

generative drives within us, because in that time that we're stressed,

Time: 8891.735

we're not tending to other things, including things that we could do for the

Time: 8894.455

relationship that we're so worried about.

Time: 8895.965

Paul Conti: The famous scene in Swingers, right, where t he person leaves a message

Time: 8899.415

and then lives the whole relationship in his own m ind and breaks up with the

Time: 8902.935

person and they never actually spoke.

Time: 8905.015

There's the anxiety run wild.

Time: 8907.455

And of course, I remember that was very popular when it came out.

Time: 8911.345

Why?

Time: 8911.585

Because it resonated with the insecurities we feel and now with the

Time: 8915.435

ability to feel those insecurities in a much more immediate way.

Time: 8918.435

That person didn't text me back.

Time: 8920.305

There's a lot more of that inside o f us, which really points to if you're able

Time: 8925.525

to identify that you're anxious, too.

Time: 8928.645

Anxious for comfort, which, again, if one looks inside or even listens,

Time: 8932.335

maybe to what others have said or reflected, like, there's a lot of

Time: 8934.905

data, especially introspection, t o be able to identify that, right?

Time: 8938.565

The next question is always, why?

Time: 8941.485

Let's go look at that.

Time: 8942.614

Maybe that person has been anxious their whole life.

Time: 8945.194

Maybe they just have run tense all the time.

Time: 8947.715

You know what?

Time: 8948.035

Sometimes a little bit of medicine that kind of just pulls that down.

Time: 8951.325

P erson can take that for 50 years, life is better, t here's no side effects, s o

Time: 8954.305

sometimes that might be the case, right?

Time: 8956.585

Sometimes the person's anxiety kind of grew throughout childhood, and maybe

Time: 8960.335

that's because there were difficult things or traumatic things that happened.

Time: 8963.165

Maybe there was nothing like that, but maybe the person was very good at

Time: 8966.735

engaging in the world and then felt more and more pressures upon themselves.

Time: 8969.685

And no one ever did anything wrong, and they've only been rewarded.

Time: 8972.695

But regardless, look at the anxiety in yourself.

Time: 8976.025

Go back to those pillars, right?

Time: 8977.765

And one might discover, for example, maybe the anxiety I'm feeling is

Time: 8983.355

attributable to the other person.

Time: 8984.985

Am I feeling anxious because I'm intimidated?

Time: 8987.665

Am I feeling anxious because I know that if I don't behave in a

Time: 8990.605

certain way, the next time there's a group meeting, there'll be

Time: 8993.704

some snarky joke made about me.

Time: 8996.265

So, anxiety, sometimes it's the self.

Time: 8998.674

Sometimes it's got a lot of biological components.

Time: 9000.805

Sometimes it's got a lot of psychological components.

Time: 9002.645

Sometimes both.

Time: 9004.045

Sometimes it's the environment.

Time: 9005.315

Sometimes it's the other.

Time: 9006.745

The other person.

Time: 9007.455

So look at why.

Time: 9009.664

Because that's how we learn.

Time: 9011.845

Like, what is going on inside of me?

Time: 9013.295

Where is that level of anxiety?

Time: 9014.975

How does it not feel comfortable?

Time: 9016.614

What actually is it?

Time: 9017.585

How is it changing, how I'm behaving?

Time: 9019.755

How might it be changing?

Time: 9021.185

How am I responding to it?

Time: 9022.825

So, what are we doing?

Time: 9023.995

We're going back to this, look in those 10 cabinets and figure out why, which we

Time: 9029.925

can do the vast majority of times between ourselves and the use of others, either

Time: 9034.475

professionally or non professionally.

Time: 9036.335

We can go understand the anxiety or the lack of anxiety.

Time: 9040.425

Why am I not so motivated?

Time: 9042.305

Right?

Time: 9042.625

I mean, that's the case with a lot of people who feel demoralized.

Time: 9045.215

They don't feel they can get anywhere in the world.

Time: 9047.445

The world's a bad place, and how are you going to make your way in the world?

Time: 9050.414

And they start feeling nihilistic, or they feel like the eight ball is against

Time: 9055.145

them, even in a generational capacity.

Time: 9057.175

And now they feel demoralized, and the tension inside is soothed by things.

Time: 9062.525

So maybe that's the person who's overusing the thing that soothes, right.

Time: 9066.034

So they could go look at, hey, I was kind of motivated and did well

Time: 9069.725

in sports or did well in this, was interested in that, what's going on?

Time: 9073.625

That's how a person could identify, for example, being demoralized.

Time: 9076.605

So that process of inquiry gives us the information that we can

Time: 9081.015

use in the service of change.

Time: 9083.275

And the change, while not achieved 100% of the time, the change for

Time: 9086.875

the better is predictable if it's arising from a place of understanding.

Time: 9092.245

Andrew Huberman: I'm very curious about frames of mind in relationship.

Time: 9095.445

In particular, how being in our own experience, say, anxious because someone

Time: 9101.075

hasn't responded to us and really paying attention to the anxiety and drilling into

Time: 9105.654

it and asking ourselves, why am I anxious?

Time: 9108.245

And do I deserve to be anxious?

Time: 9110.475

Is it about me or is it about them?

Time: 9112.965

Whether or not that's a valid pursuit, or whether or not focusing on the

Time: 9118.335

other person and trying to imagine what's going on in their head, that

Time: 9122.624

they might be doing this or that they seem to do something repeatedly.

Time: 9126.065

This, of course, relates to much more than just the scenario of waiting for

Time: 9129.305

a text message and feeling anxious.

Time: 9131.465

I think so much of how we come into relationships of all kinds, romantic

Time: 9136.645

certainly, but family relationships are in and around the tendency to

Time: 9142.235

switch back and forth, sometimes seemingly at random, between our own

Time: 9146.185

experience and what am I feeling?

Time: 9147.785

What am I experiencing?

Time: 9149.185

And then thinking about the other.

Time: 9150.545

Like, what are they thinking?

Time: 9152.435

What are they experiencing?

Time: 9153.415

I mean, this has everything to do with human dynamics.

Time: 9157.815

I would think that it's near impossible for the typical person to just live

Time: 9162.785

life through their own frame and lens and never pay attention at all

Time: 9167.035

to what others might be thinking.

Time: 9168.125

Even, for instance, the most exploitive, extractive narcissist sociopath presumably

Time: 9173.685

is thinking about who in the room is going to be their target because

Time: 9177.555

of how that person might be feeling.

Time: 9179.565

And of course, on the benevolent side, people who want to do positive, generative

Time: 9184.485

things in the world are probably thinking about who to align with, who has common

Time: 9189.525

goals that they might want to work with or be with romantically that could help

Time: 9193.215

them and the other person generate.

Time: 9195.935

So what is this thing that we do?

Time: 9199.805

What is it called, and how does it work to place ourselves in the mind of others?

Time: 9205.205

And what roles does it serve and what goals does it undercut when we do this?

Time: 9210.615

Paul Conti: Well, I think the first thing to say is that everything

Time: 9213.364

follows the same simple pattern.

Time: 9216.014

So I start with thinking about me, right?

Time: 9219.965

If I'm anxious, why am I anxious?

Time: 9222.398

What's going on inside of me?

Time: 9223.665

Then I think about you.

Time: 9225.175

Are you anxious too?

Time: 9226.585

Or maybe I'm not anxious, but I notice that you are.

Time: 9229.595

So there's the thought about the I, because I can't think in a

Time: 9232.854

clear headed way about you unless I've thought about me, right?

Time: 9236.425

Because if I'm really, really anxious, then how am I supposed

Time: 9239.605

to understand and try and get an idea of where you're at, right?

Time: 9242.735

So then where do we arrive?

Time: 9244.315

We arrive at the magic bridge of the us.

Time: 9248.265

That's what connects us.

Time: 9250.255

Whether the us is a friendship, it's a professional relationship, it's romance.

Time: 9255.825

There's the bridge of the us.

Time: 9257.095

Because it's not just how or when am I anxious.

Time: 9260.675

How or when are you anxious?

Time: 9263.045

What are things like when we're together?

Time: 9265.485

Maybe that.

Time: 9265.975

Maybe I'm anxious when we're together.

Time: 9267.904

And what's that tension about?

Time: 9269.565

Or you're anxious when we're together.

Time: 9270.685

And maybe that's for reasons we could talk about and make less.

Time: 9274.255

Maybe there's some insecurity in one of us, or maybe the other person is

Time: 9277.425

behaving in a certain way that's not making the second person feel good.

Time: 9281.775

We can then come together and see how does the us impact the level

Time: 9286.255

of anxiety, and how do we then take away from the us being stronger?

Time: 9290.955

So think about, w e talked about the trauma bond.

Time: 9293.265

Trauma bond can be enacted in a negative way.

Time: 9296.295

It can be enacted in a positive way.

Time: 9298.124

And those two people who can go to the museum together, who can't go

Time: 9301.855

to the museum separately, they're living in the magic bridge of the us.

Time: 9307.295

They're both at the museum, but neither can go to the museum.

Time: 9310.815

Neither can go to the museum, but both can go to the museum.

Time: 9314.505

And then they take away stronger selves from that.

Time: 9318.244

That's a reinforcing experience.

Time: 9320.605

It's positive.

Time: 9321.465

It builds the generative drive.

Time: 9322.764

It builds confidence.

Time: 9324.165

The person went, they were assertive, and that was gratified in a good

Time: 9327.125

way, and they felt pleasure.

Time: 9328.925

So when we look at the us, it is about the us in the moment, but it is also

Time: 9333.575

about how two people are impacting one another in the rest of their lives.

Time: 9337.615

And of course, this is more important the closer the relationship, like this

Time: 9341.715

is very important, for example, in close friendships or family relationships.

Time: 9345.605

And I think this is of extreme importance in relationships.

Time: 9349.695

These are the two people who presumably are the closest to one another on Earth.

Time: 9354.164

So a shared us that promotes understanding and bolsters a sense of agency and

Time: 9361.655

gratitude and bolsters the generative drive that's great for both people

Time: 9366.715

when they're not in the us, when one goes one way and one goes the

Time: 9369.845

other, because that happens all the time in relationships, too, right?

Time: 9372.355

Go to work at different places or we bolster ourselves outside of

Time: 9376.955

relationships if we see what the magic bridge of the relationship can be.

Time: 9381.965

So, we can look there for problems like, why am I anxious?

Time: 9385.095

Why are you anxious?

Time: 9385.835

Why are we anxious?

Time: 9386.895

Why are you only anxious when we're we and not...?

Time: 9389.195

We can look for all that, and we should, right?

Time: 9391.815

But we can also even more powerfully look for the good there.

Time: 9396.905

How can our shared bond, whatever it may be, be better for both of us?

Time: 9400.945

And what stronger incentive could there be than to do that in relationships?

Time: 9406.555

Romantic relationships, the ones that are closest to us, if they're not

Time: 9409.085

romantic, they could be friendships.

Time: 9410.225

Whatever our closest relationships are, they're the most important vehicles,

Time: 9414.465

so to speak, to better health and happiness, to getting to that place

Time: 9417.865

of peace and contentment and delight.

Time: 9422.655

The us is very, very powerful.

Time: 9424.805

In fact, even more powerful than the I and the you.

Time: 9429.775

Andrew Huberman: When thinking about the us and trying to understand why

Time: 9434.515

somebody that we know and are in relationship with is behaving the way

Time: 9439.435

they are or might be feeling or claiming they feel the way that they are.

Time: 9444.055

How useful do you think it is for us to put ourselves in their shoes?

Time: 9450.194

I can think of all sorts of ways in which this could be beneficial.

Time: 9453.455

I can also think of all sorts of ways in which it would be focusing off the

Time: 9457.395

self and our own experience in ways that might be defensive avoidance or denial.

Time: 9465.514

Yeah, I'll come clean.

Time: 9466.354

I mean, there have been plenty of times in relationship where I get fixated on

Time: 9470.085

why someone is the way they are, behaved the way they did, and more often than not,

Time: 9476.494

by taking a step back and thinking about why my reaction to that is the way it is.

Time: 9482.324

I don't solve the "problem," but I get a lot further along in terms of quelling my

Time: 9489.095

own anxiety and finding a path forward.

Time: 9491.485

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 9492.935

Well, mentalization, which is the ability to discern feeling states,

Time: 9497.855

intention states in self and others.

Time: 9500.625

But now we're looking for others, right?

Time: 9502.435

So the ability to understand feeling states, what's going on inside of you?

Time: 9506.435

Intention.

Time: 9507.165

What are your intentions?

Time: 9508.765

That should only be good, because if we're seeing it through a clear lens,

Time: 9515.565

meaning a lens that's not biased by some problem, like a defense mechanism

Time: 9520.264

of rationalization, for example, or of projection, if we're seeing clearly,

Time: 9524.905

we're learning about the other.

Time: 9527.224

And the learning is never bad.

Time: 9529.395

Knowledge, truth is good.

Time: 9531.935

So if we learn about the other by, in that sense, putting ourselves in

Time: 9535.185

their shoes, then we gain information.

Time: 9537.744

But it's the health in us that is so crucial to what we do

Time: 9542.165

with that information, right?

Time: 9543.745

So one person could say, put themselves in the other person's shoes and

Time: 9548.545

they can say, okay, that person, I can see that person's responding.

Time: 9551.345

And they say, pretty calm, pretty calm about something.

Time: 9554.964

And maybe that's just a good thing.

Time: 9556.624

Maybe there's some contention going on and that person's maintaining

Time: 9560.295

their cool and that person is going to be really helpful in navigating

Time: 9563.995

an argument or a disagreement to some really positive endpoint.

Time: 9569.374

So, if a person sees clearly, okay, I can see that you're calm.

Time: 9574.305

And I also see that you're trying to figure things out and the things that

Time: 9578.151

you're saying are sort of positive.

Time: 9579.485

You're disagreeing with me, but you don't seem to mean ill.

Time: 9582.895

Then I can see, you know what?

Time: 9583.955

I think your calm is good, because I'm getting a little bit upset and you're not.

Time: 9588.865

And I see that there's a benevolence in you.

Time: 9590.685

So maybe you'll guide us to the p lace that maybe I can't, right?

Time: 9594.325

But think about if there's not a clear lens inside of me.

Time: 9599.575

If I have a defense system that leads me to externalize, responsibility that

Time: 9605.715

leads me to project or leads me to do all sorts of things that are not healthy.

Time: 9609.045

Now I might think, well, you're calm because you just don't care about me.

Time: 9613.905

I mean, so think of the same exact thing.

Time: 9616.445

Now in the example we're giving the person in your position is like being really

Time: 9619.685

benign and benevolent, but it happens all the time where that is misconstrued.

Time: 9625.215

So it's not that the insight, that person is calm, I see that

Time: 9630.264

they're calm, it's that there's a deficit in the mentalization.

Time: 9633.195

The person is not fully understanding their intention.

Time: 9636.835

What's coming through then gets distorted.

Time: 9639.145

So, we think about defense mechanisms.

Time: 9641.275

They can be clear, they can let light through in this beautiful way that has

Time: 9645.615

fidelity, or they can be very distorting.

Time: 9648.225

So the thought that, if I'm discerning that you are benevolent and you seem to be

Time: 9655.775

trying to solve the problem for us, but I take in and you just don't care about me

Time: 9660.515

and you're trying to put one over on me.

Time: 9663.445

If I've assessed it accurately, but it comes on the other

Time: 9668.075

end in a way that's changed.

Time: 9670.575

That's because there's a lack of clarity , there's distortion inside of me.

Time: 9675.005

Right?

Time: 9675.914

So then if I'm really working on myself, I'm in the best place I

Time: 9679.475

can be, I'm going to be better at mentalizing about you and me.

Time: 9684.155

Even if I say, well, we're having a disagreement, I know I tend to get

Time: 9686.945

a little defensive, so I'm going t o be a little biased to see w hat's

Time: 9690.005

in you in a kind of negative way.

Time: 9692.605

So what am I seeing like, okay, you're pretty calm, maybe you don't care.

Time: 9696.405

I know I can think that, right?

Time: 9698.865

But come on, you're trying.

Time: 9700.034

You want to solve our problem.

Time: 9701.395

Imagine when that goes on inside of a person, which sometimes

Time: 9704.135

goes on consciously or goes on unconsciously or some mixture.

Time: 9708.225

It's so powerful.

Time: 9709.795

The person is aware of their own state, which helps them to be aware of the

Time: 9713.135

state of the others, of the other.

Time: 9714.784

And then the information they're getting comes through with fidelity.

Time: 9717.635

And now all of a sudden, instead of maybe I'm going to blow things up now

Time: 9720.585

I'm allying with you in solving our problem because I see clearly about you

Time: 9723.755

and me and that's going on all the time.

Time: 9726.615

It might sound, well, it's complicated.

Time: 9727.795

There's a lot of back and forth, right?

Time: 9729.795

There are millions of things going on every split second in our

Time: 9732.704

unconscious mind that is throwing all this up to the conscious mind.

Time: 9735.665

It's doing things rapidly that's going on all the time in us, whether

Time: 9739.645

we want to acknowledge it or not.

Time: 9741.415

And we choose not to acknowledge it at our own peril because then we're not going to

Time: 9746.435

those two pillars and their 10 cupboards.

Time: 9748.775

We're not going to the structure of self, the function of self, and what

Time: 9752.515

comprises those two pillars to look for.

Time: 9755.465

Hey, what's going on?

Time: 9756.635

Right, let me understand better.

Time: 9758.195

And even if things are going well, we can always, as you said not that long

Time: 9762.935

ago, we can understand ourselves better.

Time: 9765.164

The stronger I am, the more generative drive there is in me, the less

Time: 9768.875

defensiveness, the more the agency and the gratitude, the more I'm armed for

Time: 9773.755

whatever difficult thing comes my way.

Time: 9776.365

So if there's a conflict with someone, w hether there should be or

Time: 9779.585

there shouldn't b e, maybe someone's being really aggressive and I've

Time: 9781.875

got to kind of say some things and try and counter that, right?

Time: 9784.275

I'm going to be able to discern one from another.

Time: 9786.435

I'm going to be more effective in both.

Time: 9788.815

I just set myself up for success, and if I'm setting me up for success,

Time: 9794.205

then I'm also setting you up for success if you're someone I have a

Time: 9797.275

relationship with, no matter what it is.

Time: 9799.215

And then ultimately I'm setting the we right, the magical bridge of us.

Time: 9804.265

I'm setting that up for success too.

Time: 9806.335

And that's how you see in these levels of emergence, that if you

Time: 9810.024

understand everything about you and understand everything about me, and

Time: 9813.095

let's say a person understands we have a generative drive, you don't

Time: 9817.035

really know what our relationship is going to be like, but you think, I bet

Time: 9819.645

it's going to be a good one, right?

Time: 9820.795

And then what would we then contribute, s ay, to a broader culture?

Time: 9825.265

So a group of people, maybe there's 10 people, a bunch of friends getting

Time: 9828.145

together, we would contribute goodness at that next level, which is then

Time: 9831.975

the culture o f the larger group.

Time: 9834.085

Andrew Huberman: In hearing your description of mentalization, this

Time: 9836.275

ability for all of us to get into the mind of another and to try

Time: 9841.255

and imagine motivations and states that would explain their behavior--

Time: 9845.075

Paul Conti: And the self, right? The mind of self and other.

Time: 9847.204

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that seems like a natural reflex that's healthy.

Time: 9850.425

And it seems to surface most often as the consequence of

Time: 9854.475

negative interactions, right?

Time: 9856.605

Something didn't go right.

Time: 9857.574

And so we kind of explore like, was it them?

Time: 9859.665

Was it me?

Time: 9860.374

Was it something that happened before?

Time: 9862.745

What else is going on with this person as a way to try and arrive at some sort

Time: 9866.135

of hopefully generative understanding.

Time: 9868.215

But it seems to me that there's also great value in mentalizing about others

Time: 9873.525

under conditions in which things are going well, so that one can potentially

Time: 9877.735

make things or encourage things to go even better in future interactions.

Time: 9881.934

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 9882.554

Well, the first thing I would say i s, I think the reflex

Time: 9885.875

is most often not mentalizing.

Time: 9890.075

That the reflex is most often not mentalizing, r ight?

Time: 9894.105

Because the reflexes often come from a position of not feeling safe.

Time: 9900.045

There's some conflict.

Time: 9900.885

I don't feel good.

Time: 9902.115

If there's some conflict, people, we often get very defensive very quickly,

Time: 9905.795

whether we show it on the outside or we start partitioning inside.

Time: 9909.595

And the problems come not from mentalizing, but they come from

Time: 9913.695

not mentalizing and not being aware of the difference, because

Time: 9916.875

then I conclude, I know what's going on in you and I don't right.

Time: 9920.605

Because I don't know what's going on in me.

Time: 9922.575

Right. And I think you're being aggressive.

Time: 9923.965

Really.

Time: 9924.815

I'm feeling kind of defensive.

Time: 9926.125

I'm feeling vulnerable, and then I'm getting aggressive.

Time: 9929.255

But I can't handle that because I don't want to be aggressive.

Time: 9931.665

So you're aggressive.

Time: 9932.845

So there's such a difference between, say, coming at a self other conflict from the

Time: 9938.315

perspective of, say, not mentalizing, but thinking that you are versus mentalizing.

Time: 9943.625

There's a difference between, is it me?

Time: 9946.595

I know it can't be.

Time: 9948.235

Is it you?

Time: 9949.095

It must be.

Time: 9950.425

Right?

Time: 9950.735

And that's how a lot of that goes.

Time: 9952.735

And then, of course, what's the data t hat's gathered, the data

Time: 9955.425

that's gathered supports that.

Time: 9956.915

I mean, I think there's wars I think have happened based upon

Time: 9960.355

this, let alone conflicts in friendships and in relationships.

Time: 9963.414

The key about mentalizing is that's not what it is.

Time: 9966.055

Mentalizing.

Time: 9966.625

It goes like this.

Time: 9968.045

Is it me?

Time: 9969.265

Is it you?

Time: 9970.165

Is it us?

Time: 9971.754

Let's figure that out.

Time: 9973.645

Let's figure it out together.

Time: 9976.085

It's not defensive, it's not aggressive.

Time: 9978.365

It's not projecting.

Time: 9979.245

It's really actually seeing.

Time: 9982.085

And look, if it's me, I want to be aware of it and say, yeah, like, whoa,

Time: 9985.784

I got up on the wrong side of the bed.

Time: 9987.305

Let me just say I'm sorry, right?

Time: 9988.764

Or if I might say, look, I know that you're being aggressive and

Time: 9991.165

you normally wouldn't be, and say, look, let me just get away from it?

Time: 9994.245

Let the person I care about calm down, come back later.

Time: 9997.235

Or if it's us, is really something b etween us, then let's sort it out.

Time: 10000.815

The information that allows the healthy, the agency and gratitude decisions

Time: 10006.505

is always there through mentalizing.

Time: 10008.675

The danger is when we're not mentalizing, but we think we are.

Time: 10012.285

Andrew Huberman: Got it.

Time: 10014.425

In keeping with thinking about others and what's going on with them.

Time: 10018.485

Mentalizing, that is, and in thinking about what's going on with ourselves and

Time: 10021.885

the exploration of the cupboards under the pillars of structure of self, function

Time: 10025.415

of self and our desire for all of that to geyser up into agency and gratitude.

Time: 10031.045

One thing that we hear about so much these days, and generally I

Time: 10035.085

think it's good that people are talking about them, are boundaries.

Time: 10039.734

You've crossed my boundary, or I'm setting a boundary.

Time: 10042.045

And I've certainly embedded the message in my head that in order

Time: 10047.095

for certain relationships to be at their most loving in my life,

Time: 10050.335

sometimes the boundaries require very little frequency of communication.

Time: 10055.435

But that doesn't mean the relationships aren't ongoing.

Time: 10059.435

So what are your thoughts on boundaries?

Time: 10061.534

And how should we think about boundaries for the sake of healthy relationships?

Time: 10065.975

Paul Conti: Well, healthy boundaries always start inside.

Time: 10069.655

And then once we have them squared away inside, we can project them outward.

Time: 10074.155

The same as everything works, right?

Time: 10076.285

It starts with the self, and then it includes the other.

Time: 10079.665

So let's say you took an example of a friend who's just

Time: 10084.425

a little too presumptuous.

Time: 10085.775

Like the kind of person you'd rather k nock on your door, but who just opens the

Time: 10089.595

door and comes in, that kind of thing.

Time: 10092.155

And you like the person a lot, and there's a lot of resonance, and you

Time: 10094.815

don't want to lose the friendship.

Time: 10096.555

Let's imagine what could happen here.

Time: 10098.905

It's not the only thing that can happen, but a thought experiment, right?

Time: 10102.105

So the person may then question themselves, like, is there

Time: 10105.025

something wrong with me?

Time: 10106.735

Because I don't really like this person coming in my front door.

Time: 10109.725

Is that just me?

Time: 10110.425

Am I being weird about that?

Time: 10111.725

Or the person can kind of stop and think about that, and they can

Time: 10114.705

take stock of self, and they can arrive at an answer for themselves.

Time: 10118.645

Like, look, that person may conclude that, you know what?

Time: 10122.075

People I'm as close to as this person come in my front door.

Time: 10124.235

You know what?

Time: 10124.585

That's okay, right?

Time: 10125.624

You know what?

Time: 10126.021

I don't need to set a boundary there.

Time: 10127.935

That's possible, right?

Time: 10129.485

More often, what the person concludes is, no, I don't really want that.

Time: 10134.485

I do actually want this person to knock on the door.

Time: 10136.961

And that's okay.

Time: 10138.505

There's not something wrong with me.

Time: 10140.105

It's not that I'm being a jerk.

Time: 10141.515

It's not that I'm being a bad friend, right?

Time: 10143.445

Because what are they saying?

Time: 10144.445

You might say, oh, they're preparing for what the other person could

Time: 10146.565

say, but no, they're countering what they're testing out to themselves.

Time: 10150.934

Does that mean I'm a bad friend?

Time: 10152.285

No, right?

Time: 10153.855

That kind of thing.

Time: 10154.485

So they know, and then they understand, and they have the

Time: 10157.615

right to set the boundary, right?

Time: 10159.095

Like, okay, it's my house.

Time: 10160.215

I try to be generous, but I still don't want people coming in the door.

Time: 10162.785

Like, you come to some conclusion that setting the boundary is okay and

Time: 10167.255

you're squared away with it inside.

Time: 10169.825

Then you communicate the boundary outward, and you decide, how

Time: 10173.135

do I want to communicate that?

Time: 10174.635

Like saying, hey, man, don't come in the front door anymore.

Time: 10178.005

That's not so good right now, the friendship is really on the rocks, right?

Time: 10181.945

But to say to someone something like, yeah, look, I care about you, and I trust

Time: 10186.785

you, and I know you feel the same way about me, but it just makes me nervous

Time: 10190.645

when people just come in the door.

Time: 10192.725

Do you mind?

Time: 10193.395

Is it okay if you just please knock on the door now?

Time: 10196.445

Think about how that's been done.

Time: 10198.095

It's so accurate to what's going on inside the person, to how the person wants to

Time: 10205.145

communicate with the other, then you have the highest likelihood of effectiveness.

Time: 10210.505

And the person also, in that sense, has sort of the clean conscience, so to speak,

Time: 10215.845

that lets them take in information back.

Time: 10218.565

So let's say the other person hopefully has a high generative drive and

Time: 10222.274

all the good things we're talking about could say, oh, I'm sorry.

Time: 10225.915

I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable.

Time: 10228.425

I kind of just automatically do that, or I always do that at my brother's

Time: 10231.995

house when it's close by or whatever.

Time: 10233.465

The person is saying, no worries, okay, everything is fine.

Time: 10237.345

Right?

Time: 10237.715

But let's say that person does get mad now.

Time: 10240.514

You know, like, whoa, what's going on in this person?

Time: 10243.154

Because what you're doing is you're seeing signs of unhealth in the other person.

Time: 10246.765

And it may be that, whoa, that's not so healthy with the person.

Time: 10250.055

But I like other aspects of the friendship, and that seems like

Time: 10252.675

kind of a strange idiosyncrasy.

Time: 10254.495

Then you might decide, you know what?

Time: 10256.545

I want to keep this friendship.

Time: 10257.565

So I'll start locking the door, and the person has to knock, or you might think,

Time: 10263.655

okay, am I seeing something here that's about lack of consideration, right?

Time: 10268.315

That's about selfishness.

Time: 10269.425

That ultimately may be about envy.

Time: 10271.005

I'm going to walk into your house and ruin your privacy.

Time: 10273.624

I'm going to walk into your house and make you feel anxious.

Time: 10275.204

I feel entitled to do that.

Time: 10276.745

The kind of thing that's really coming through the lens of envy.

Time: 10279.285

So then you start thinking about that, and maybe not always.

Time: 10282.975

Of course, sometimes you find a friend who can do the right thing.

Time: 10288.485

Sometimes you find a friend who can't, and you can still make the friendship work.

Time: 10291.295

Sometimes you find a person who's not a friend, and you see, like, oh, that's

Time: 10295.295

how e verything is with this person.

Time: 10297.325

You realize, like, there's no us.

Time: 10299.475

There's no us, right.

Time: 10300.995

And that's how people can leave relationships that ultimately are

Time: 10305.625

exploitive in one way or another.

Time: 10307.045

Whether it's a friendship, it's a romance, if a person really understands, there's

Time: 10311.715

the me, the you, the magical bridge of us.

Time: 10313.885

And then, wait, there's no magical bridge of us.

Time: 10317.445

I feel that there's a magical bridge of us, but the other person doesn't.

Time: 10320.875

There's immense power of understanding and then of appropriate

Time: 10325.325

self care and self protection.

Time: 10328.645

Andrew Huberman: Over and over again.

Time: 10330.624

Not just during today's episode, but in the previous two episodes.

Time: 10333.875

It seems that getting squared away with oneself, or at least one's own

Time: 10339.675

internal processes to some degree, gaining some insight as to where the

Time: 10344.475

negative or even positive emotion within us is arising when we're in

Time: 10348.305

relationship to anyone or anything.

Time: 10350.614

It just seems so key.

Time: 10352.515

It's like the foundation of it.

Time: 10353.985

You said getting to the maximum amount of agency and gratitude is the goal, really.

Time: 10362.555

And that's done by cycling back through the cupboards that reside under

Time: 10367.345

structure of self and function of self.

Time: 10368.835

And asking questions about oneself.

Time: 10371.385

And really, unless we are trained psychiatrists like you, none of

Time: 10376.615

us really should be doing that for the other person, it seems.

Time: 10379.445

This is really each and all of our own responsibility to do for

Time: 10384.085

ourselves, but that it serves others in so many positive ways.

Time: 10388.665

Paul Conti: Right.

Time: 10389.325

Right.

Time: 10389.725

So mentalization greases the progress of all things good.

Time: 10394.325

Because it is about actual understanding, feeling states, intentions.

Time: 10398.895

But I have to first mentalize about me before I mentalize about you.

Time: 10404.204

A way of putting this would be, if I'm thinking about you before I'm thinking

Time: 10407.785

about me, I'm on a fool's errand.

Time: 10410.635

You have to start with the self.

Time: 10412.595

And to try and attain clarity of self.

Time: 10415.635

Or to realize that you can't.

Time: 10419.275

It's a very important nuance.

Time: 10421.594

If I know that, say there's trauma in me about a certain thing.

Time: 10424.535

And I know that I respond in ways where sometimes my emotions get high.

Time: 10429.095

And I can't quite think through it all, which can happen to me with

Time: 10434.365

references or something that's encompassing a certain kind of trauma.

Time: 10438.524

I want to be aware of that, right?

Time: 10440.275

So this idea of not only being aware of what you know about yourself, but

Time: 10444.795

being aware that there are things you don't know about yourself.

Time: 10447.625

So if I know enough to know that a certain kind of interaction

Time: 10452.244

about a certain kind of trauma.

Time: 10453.935

Really sets me to a place where I'm not able to mentalize like I normally

Time: 10459.085

would be, I'm sort of flying blind.

Time: 10461.875

Then, good for me to know that, because I don't know what that's doing to me.

Time: 10465.605

So it's the last time to make conclusions.

Time: 10467.725

So let's say I'm in that state.

Time: 10469.005

Let's say I'm in that state because of something that just happened, and now

Time: 10473.374

we have some sort of conflict, right?

Time: 10474.824

Then for me to realize, like, well, what's going on in me?

Time: 10477.175

I'm bringing to this a lack of clarity because I'm really activated, right.

Time: 10482.765

In that sense, the anxiety, the tension in me has been raised.

Time: 10486.075

The negative emotion, that reflexive, negative affect, feeling

Time: 10490.074

emotion has been raised in me.

Time: 10492.085

And then I realize, like, I don't know how it's going to go if we interact

Time: 10495.514

about it now because I can't rely on me.

Time: 10498.285

So, like, hey, can we talk about this later?

Time: 10500.255

The same way if you recognize in the other that person who's

Time: 10502.785

usually rational is all worked up, recognize that in the other, right?

Time: 10506.984

A nd maybe that person doesn't realize that they still want to interact.

Time: 10509.614

And you say, let's revisit this.

Time: 10512.194

We're both kind of calm, cool and collected, right?

Time: 10515.255

So mentalization greases the wheels of all progress, but like anything else

Time: 10519.835

has to be deployed in a way that works.

Time: 10522.925

And the way that works is I start with me, then I go to you, and then I go to us.

Time: 10528.575

Andrew Huberman: I'm fully on board the start with me, then to

Time: 10532.385

the other, and then to us model.

Time: 10535.575

It makes total sense.

Time: 10536.775

In fact, so much so that I'm starting to build an image of my mind, where first

Time: 10543.645

is kind of a rule, which is it starts with self understanding, thoughtful,

Time: 10549.224

structured inquiry along the lines of the map that was laid out in episodes

Time: 10552.695

one and two of this series and that we've been alluding to numerous times today.

Time: 10556.925

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 10557.815

Andrew Huberman: And then there's a second line or rule that I've got written

Time: 10562.055

on this imaginary piece of paper in my mind, where anytime I default to thinking

Time: 10566.575

about another without first going to my own map and exploring what's going

Time: 10572.245

on with me, that my own map starts to become blurry, like I'm losing access to

Time: 10576.745

it and it potentially could disappear.

Time: 10578.525

I'm just creating this in my own mind as a way to create a little

Time: 10581.534

bit of, I think, healthy anxiety.

Time: 10583.285

Paul Conti: I like it.

Time: 10584.005

Andrew Huberman: To really go there first, paints the picture.

Time: 10586.975

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 10587.975

Andrew Huberman: And the purpose in having such an image in my mind, that access

Time: 10594.845

to the self and understanding of self is potentially drifting away, is because I

Time: 10598.775

think, for me, there's a third line in this rule set that I'm imagining, which

Time: 10603.105

is that the less understanding we have of our own map and internal process,

Time: 10609.485

the more likely I am, or we all are, to just latch on to an unhealthy map.

Time: 10616.675

Another unhealthy map.

Time: 10618.104

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 10618.575

I have to even follow the directions o f our own unhealthy map.

Time: 10622.195

Which leads us to someone else's unhealthy map, and then we

Time: 10625.125

latch onto it, like you said.

Time: 10626.535

Yeah, absolutely.

Time: 10627.545

Yes.

Time: 10627.915

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's right.

Time: 10628.335

Because it's still active, even if it's blurry or if it's obscured

Time: 10631.295

from my awareness and drifting away.

Time: 10633.184

Paul Conti: So if I'm trying to guide myself with my broken compass, I run

Time: 10637.065

into someone else with a broken compass.

Time: 10639.115

Now we're both wandering, so be aware.

Time: 10642.045

If the compass isn't working the way we want it to, can we go look at that?

Time: 10646.265

Can we make the map healthy, make the map accurate, make the map

Time: 10650.015

guide us towards what we want?

Time: 10651.305

Because then we will find other people who've worked on their own maps that way.

Time: 10655.895

Andrew Huberman: Absolutely.

Time: 10657.175

And so often I hear about, and frankly, I've experienced this

Time: 10661.875

feeling like, oh, it's just a matter of finding somebody who is healthy.

Time: 10666.454

Right?

Time: 10666.725

And then things will be much easier and much better.

Time: 10669.105

And surely that has to be the case.

Time: 10670.994

And surely there have to be instances where people have an interaction

Time: 10676.195

with somebody that leads to a relationship with somebody and the

Time: 10678.595

other person is much healthier.

Time: 10679.805

And whatever trauma we come to the relationship with is best supported

Time: 10683.945

or better supported than it would be if we were with somebody exploitative

Time: 10686.994

or who was truly damaged in some way, who basically had a map that was

Time: 10691.445

really, I don't want to say screwed up, but that they had not explored.

Time: 10694.515

Paul Conti: They need a lot of work.

Time: 10695.365

Andrew Huberman: They need a lot of work, but I don't see that very often.

Time: 10698.685

I definitely see people who, at least from my outside read, seem to have healthy

Time: 10702.805

maps or are doing regular exploration of their maps and therefore healthy.

Time: 10707.864

Who knows?

Time: 10708.245

I don't know what they do with their time in every domain of life.

Time: 10712.595

But once again, we come back to this importance of understanding what's

Time: 10718.855

in those cupboards, what's in those pillars, as a not just important but

Time: 10724.345

critical step in understanding and building ourselves in positive ways.

Time: 10730.235

And as I said once or twice before in this series, but I'm going to say it again,

Time: 10735.195

and I'm sure again and again before we conclude this series, is that what's

Time: 10740.465

so attractive about this map is that it sets a very clear and simple set of

Time: 10746.165

ideals, not necessarily simple to attain.

Time: 10748.595

And as you've said, it takes time, but agency, concept and gratitude,

Time: 10753.485

empowerment, humility, leading up to peace, contentment and delight,

Time: 10758.815

all as action states, not as passive states to just bask in and disappear.

Time: 10765.165

And this notion of the generative drive.

Time: 10767.285

And by now, in this episode, I'm sure people are well on board the understanding

Time: 10771.405

that the generative drive is not just about going out and doing things.

Time: 10774.965

It's about doing things in service to and in a way that supports learning,

Time: 10779.654

knowing, creating, not just of others and in the world, but inside.

Time: 10783.815

Paul Conti: Yes.

Time: 10785.685

I love the map imagery because you can almost see the map changing, right?

Time: 10791.685

As the person, I imagine the person is busying away in the cupboards.

Time: 10794.565

Oh, there's a lot to work on in this cupboard.

Time: 10796.535

And they're busying away and they're doing the work, and we can see the map changing.

Time: 10800.415

That path that looked like a really good path actually goes through a swamp.

Time: 10804.865

We didn't see the swamp on the map.

Time: 10805.995

Now it appears on the map.

Time: 10807.365

That other path that looked like it's a little circuitous.

Time: 10810.195

That's a good path.

Time: 10811.335

It might be a harder path.

Time: 10812.574

It is a little circuitous, but look where it leads, right?

Time: 10815.635

The map becomes clear as we do the work on ourselves.

Time: 10820.745

Andrew Huberman: Yes.

Time: 10821.105

And also the understanding that you've laid out for us here really helps

Time: 10824.765

avoid a lot of the common pitfalls that are associated with sticky language.

Time: 10829.675

And sticky for good reason.

Time: 10830.885

I mean, what's stickier and more interesting for people that are interested

Time: 10833.975

in themselves, in relationship than things like boundaries or labels like

Time: 10839.025

anxious, attached, or secure, attached.

Time: 10840.845

And I'm not being disparaging of those labels, but I'm realizing

Time: 10843.795

those are just labels, right?

Time: 10845.645

They don't define action items and specific lines of inquiry to get us back

Time: 10852.555

into our self understanding over and over.

Time: 10855.905

Not as a full time job, right?

Time: 10857.455

We all have to live our lives, but as a way actually to be more leaned

Time: 10861.365

into life in the outside world.

Time: 10863.175

Paul Conti: Those labels define people no better than the numerical diagnoses in the

Time: 10868.045

psychiatric taxonomy book that we glorify.

Time: 10872.105

Labels are not understanding.

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Numbers are not understanding.

Time: 10875.655

They can help.

Time: 10876.425

Taxonomies are good.

Time: 10877.995

Sometimes labels let us categorize things, but labels are not a

Time: 10882.285

substitute for understanding.

Time: 10884.065

Numbers are not a substitute for understanding.

Time: 10886.315

If we look at ourselves, we get real understanding, and that's

Time: 10891.635

what makes the difference.

Time: 10892.525

That's what bolsters agency, gratitude, all those good things.

Time: 10896.445

Clear mentalization, greasing the wheels of progress more, the

Time: 10900.485

generative drive getting stronger.

Time: 10902.005

We really can find goodness, and often do.

Time: 10905.135

And that's why I think everything we're t alking about is very hopeful.

Time: 10908.184

It acknowledges there's complexity.

Time: 10910.195

There are pitfalls.

Time: 10911.245

There are all sorts of things to it that we need to be aware of and to beware of.

Time: 10915.725

But that doesn't mean that ultimately it isn't positive that we're not

Time: 10918.994

speaking to, hey, whatever it is that's ailing you, that thing can be better.

Time: 10925.034

Andrew Huberman: Well, I'm so grateful that you're sharing your knowledge and

Time: 10927.565

experience around all of this with us and that you've laid out such a clear

Time: 10933.195

and logical and deep and tractable, really actionable understanding

Time: 10939.055

of all this that we can engage in.

Time: 10940.925

It's tremendously powerful.

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Paul Conti: Thank you.

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I so appreciate it.

Time: 10944.245

Thank you.

Time: 10945.245

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about how

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to improve your relationships with Dr.

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Paul Conti.

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I'd also like to take a moment to remind you that the fourth episode in this series

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on mental health with Paul Conti will be out next week and that links to all the

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episodes can be found at HubermanLab.com.

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If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please

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In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

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And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review.

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Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and

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That's the best way to support this podcast.

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If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd

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I do read all the comments, and if you're not already following me on social media,

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And on all those platforms I discuss science and science related tools,

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So again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media channels.

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Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman

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While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive

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tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, for

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If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the

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So it's livemomentous.com/huberman.

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We have a complete summary of our fitness series again, all

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We do not share your email with anybody.

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Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr.

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Paul Conti.

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And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

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[Closing music]

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