Dr. Elissa Epel: Control Stress for Healthy Eating, Metabolism & Aging | Huberman Lab Podcast

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welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

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where we discuss science and

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science-based tools for everyday life

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I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor

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of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at

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Stanford school of medicine today my

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guest is Dr Alyssa eppel Dr eppel is a

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professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral

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Sciences at the University of California

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San Francisco she is also the director

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of the center on Aging metabolism and

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emotions Dr eppel's laboratory focuses

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on stress and the many impacts that it

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has on our brain and body both negative

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and positive for instance our laboratory

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has shown that particular forms of

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stress change our telomeres which are a

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component of the genetic Machinery of

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ourselves that impacts how quickly our

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cells and therefore we age we also

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discuss exciting work from Dr Apple's

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laboratory exploring how stress impacts

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our behavioral choices in particular

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which foods we elect to eat and how we

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experience those Foods today you'll

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learn how stress and your interpretation

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of your stress impacts the different

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aspects of your biology and psychology

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you'll also learn about several

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important stress interventions that Dr

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Apple's laboratory has explored

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including Med meditation and breath work

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can profoundly influence the way that

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stress impacts your brain and body both

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For Better or For Worse she's also

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explored how specific dietary

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interventions such as omega-3 fatty acid

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intake impacts stress and our response

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to stress and a key and important

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feature I believe of Dr Apple's work is

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how stress and stress interventions vary

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in their effectiveness depending on

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whether or not the subjects in her

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experiments are male versus female and

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their social status by the end of

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today's episode I assure you you will

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have a much more thorough understanding

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of what stress is and how it changes our

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biology and psychology as well as the

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specific stress interventions that are

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going to be most optimal for you in

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reducing the negative effects of stress

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on the aging process and on negative

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behavioral choices and also how to

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leverage stress in order to maximize the

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positive effects that stress can have on

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cellular metabolism mental health

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physical health and performance to learn

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more about the work from Dr eppel's

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laboratory as well as to learn more

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about her books entitled the telomere

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effect and now more recently the stress

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prescription you can find links to those

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in the show note captions before we

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begin I'd like to emphasize that this

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podcast is separate from my teaching and

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research roles at Stanford it is however

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part of my desire and effort to bring

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zero cost to Consumer information about

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science and science related tools to the

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general public in keeping with that

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theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of

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livemomentous.com huberman and now for

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my discussion with Dr Alyssa eppel Dr

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eppel welcome thank you so great to have

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you here we have colleagues in common

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and topics of Interest related to our

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Laboratories in common so I've got a lot

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of questions today I'd love to just kick

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off by you explaining a little bit about

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the different forms of stress you know

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we hear stress stress is bad stress can

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kill us no one likes to feel stressed

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Etc but as you and I both know that's

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not the entire picture so love for you

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to just educate us a bit on what stress

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is and what it isn't where it can be

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problematic and where perhaps it can

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even be beneficial so as a stress

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scientist it is

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a word I use a lot but it has to be

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broken down because it has so many

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different kind of dimensions and

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meanings so there's good and bad stress

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there's acute and chronic stress and you

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know technically it just means anytime

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we feel overwhelmed that we feel like

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the demands are too much for our

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resources so that's kind of a very

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technical way to put it but really so

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much of life is about meeting challenges

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and we're never going to get rid of

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different stressful situations in life

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if anything they are increasing and so

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it really comes down to

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not the stressors of what happens to us

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but really how we respond the stress

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response so that's a distinction that

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we're still trying to get the field to

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talk about stress in a more specific way

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so that we can think about well what

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situations are in your life

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they might be difficult ongoing

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situations like caregiving or work

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stress or worrying about

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Health your own or someone's

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and then there's how are you coping with

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it so when something happens we mount a

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stress response and we recover and

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beautiful no harm done we need that

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that's why we're here still alive is

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that survival response it's it's a

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problem these days of just we keep it

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alive in our head we keep it alive with

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our thoughts our thoughts are the most

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common form of stress

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even though I expected we would get into

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tools to combat stress a little bit

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later

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since you have now told us that our

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thoughts are the biggest sort of

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propagator of internal stress

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what to your knowledge is the best way

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or what are the best ways

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for us to manage overthinking and

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ruminating on stressful topics because I

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certainly experience stress and when I

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do I have tools related to you know

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breath work running exercise sleep

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non-sleep deep rest I'm a huge fan of

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all these sorts of things but when we

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succumb to stress and the thinking

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patterns take over

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where the gears are turning and they

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won't stop turning what does the science

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tell us about ways to manage those

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thoughts should we work with them in the

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sense that we try and rationalize

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um or understand the basis of the stress

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or should we try and divert our thinking

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away or is there some other tool that

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I'm aware unaware of yes yes both and

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right so I like to bin it in three

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um three categories so one is we well

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I'll just say first of all we have to

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have some awareness of how our mind

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works or we're just like you know a

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subject to thinking our thoughts are

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real thinking that it's helpful to keep

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ruminating and problem solving because

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that's our tendency is to go toward

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whatever we think there's threat or risk

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and to problem solve that but you could

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just be stuck there all day in this kind

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of threat mode or red mind State and

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that's just a shame we don't need to

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turn on that that stress response all

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the time

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it's where we are as a society so that's

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why I I wrote the stress prescription

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take any survey even pre-pandemic and

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people feel the majority of people feel

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an overwhelming amount of stress so even

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this past year 46 of adults report

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feeling overwhelmed by stress and then

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you break it down you're like oh this is

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really bad for young adults and women

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and people of color and so we have these

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you know

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groups that are targeted for

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marginalization that are feeling

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an extremely high amount of stress in

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most of those subgroups so bottom why

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don't you argue that most most everyone

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is feeling more stressed now or is it

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just or what do the data say yeah so

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I think that

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we come with different levels of

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awareness of our stress and so when I

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find someone who really doesn't feel a

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lot of stress sometimes I can see right

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through that and they're just not aware

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and sometimes it really is true they

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they're often in a different stage of

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life and they control their environment

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a lot and they've been through a lot I

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mean one of the

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big patterns in the

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population levels of stress is that the

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older people are less stressed period if

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you're over 65 you have been through so

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much solved so much you just have a

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better perspective on life and on

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stressors and then our adults our young

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adults have like four times the level of

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stress as our older adults so so we do

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you know we don't have to wait till we

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get older but there certainly is true

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wisdom and resilience that comes with

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age for many people

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um often we're so used to feeling daily

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stress from our Urban and Modern Life

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that we're we don't notice it we're just

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used to it and so we're going through

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the day with kind of like clenched hands

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and just you know for listeners just

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even just taking a check in now and

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noticing

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how you might be holding stress in your

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body that's a huge clue it's a huge

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place where we accumulate tension so we

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might not be aware that we're stressed

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but we're crunching our hands and in

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fact

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um

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my taxi driver who drove me here

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um

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let me know that he's exactly that point

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that he doesn't realize he's stressed

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until he realizes that he's tensing his

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shoulders and his fists and so great

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signal you know doing a check-in to like

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notice where in our body we're holding

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stress is step one to releasing it

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so um going back to this notion of

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overthinking what are the tools that

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um are most efficient for

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dealing with overthinking or ruminating

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uh when people just can't seem to let go

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of the thing that's the stress or

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thinking about not the stress in their

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body but the thing that caused the

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stress the difficult conversation the

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thing that irked them on social media or

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in their personal life or professional

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life or simply out in the world

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so I I wish I had one answer but I'm

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going to say lots of strategies tackle

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that and so in those three bins one are

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top-down strategies of awareness and

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things that we can say to ourselves

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since our beliefs and mindsets can

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really help us release stress view

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stress more positively the second bucket

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is

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um not that the Mind changes the body

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but the body changes the mind and those

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are the set of strategies that you tend

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to use the most right where where we're

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working stress out of the body we're

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metabolizing it we're burning it up and

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we get relief changes are you know

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amygdala activity and moves us to more

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an experiential state where we're more

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in our somatosensory cortex and then the

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third bucket is change the scene just

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getting away from

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all the stress triggers that we have in

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our office or in

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um in the city and being an environment

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that we find calming it might even be

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just be a corner of the house but

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implanting what I call safety signals

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where just these animals that are

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conditioned to signals whether we're

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aware of it or not so having having

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things like comforting pets pictures

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smells music

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why not we need those they help they add

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up yeah I like the idea of having a

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small physical space or I suppose it

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could be a large physical space but for

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most people who don't have the resources

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some small pre-designated physical space

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that represents a safe Zone

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um and uh creating or I should say

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populating that safe Zone with things as

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you said

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um as a visual neuroscientist originally

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I guess now I study stress um but uh as

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a visual neuroscientist we know that

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photographs are extremely powerful cues

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for the memory system especially actual

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physical photographs

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um

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and I I believe there is some work on

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this that if people keep a photograph of

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something that draws positive memories

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that that photograph actually they keep

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it with them that actually can be a

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positive cue for alleviating stress and

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just enhancing mood

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um this has probably done less so

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nowadays because everyone keeps things

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on their phones and it's just kind of a

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scroll through but um in any event

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you know when we talk about stress

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uh it's clear that there's short-term

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medium-term long-term stress you've

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studied all these different forms of

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stress

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um if you would be so kind as to just

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give us an overview of the different

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forms of stress uh how we can learn to

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recognize those and then I'd love to

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transition from there into talking about

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some of the work that you've been doing

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on stress and stress related eating and

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stress and how it relates to Aging in

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particular but before we do that

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um to get make sure everyone's on the

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same page

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um if you could just uh pepper our minds

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with knowledge about stress and all its

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um beautiful and not so beautiful forms

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so

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when we think about

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stress we usually think feeling stress

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you know reporting stress and that's

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important what are bodies doing is also

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important it's not always related to our

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minds so measuring levels of the nervous

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system and how Vigilant we are is

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another way that we can understand

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stress and that's particularly important

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and interesting because that's how

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stress gets under the skin and we might

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not be aware we might not report stress

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but we're still holding tension and

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being much more

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sympathetically dominated meaning that

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we're our body is Vigilant and scanning

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for cues and we don't feel safe and so

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we're mobilizing a lot more energy than

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we need to

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and stress is so expensive to the body

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the stress response uses a tremendous

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amount of energy ATP that's made by your

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mitochondria and if we have that kind of

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vigilant stress response on all day

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we're just going to feel exhausted and

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we all feel exhausted at this stage of

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the kind of long shadow of the pandemic

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and it's really no mystery because we're

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not good at turning the stress response

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off and that's what we want to really

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focus on is understanding we need to

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mount a big stress response to cope with

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things when we need extra energy but

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then we can actually let our body

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relax and we can turn it off and that's

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where the rumination comes and we want

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to catch ourselves rehearsing and

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reliving stress or worrying about the

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next thing saying right now I'm safe and

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you know there's the breathing

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strategies I'm right with you where

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those are the most direct and fast path

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to reducing stress in the body period

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yeah our colleague David Spiegel our

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associate chair of Psychiatry at

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Stanford and also a colleague of yours

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um as well

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um has I think said it best which is

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that breathing is unique among the

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functions of the brain because it really

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originates as a brain function and then

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extends of course to the body in that it

Time: 1101.24

represents a bridge between the

Time: 1102.559

conscious and the unconscious because at

Time: 1105.5

any given moment we're breathing

Time: 1107.48

and of course at any given moment we can

Time: 1110.6

take control of our breathing there are

Time: 1112.52

very few brain circuits that impact the

Time: 1115.34

body in that way like I can't suddenly

Time: 1117.02

just change my rate of digestion because

Time: 1119.419

I decide to but we can do that with

Time: 1121.039

breathing

Time: 1121.94

we will definitely get into some of the

Time: 1124.7

um work that you've been doing on breath

Time: 1126.74

work particular I know you have a study

Time: 1128.9

that's actually explored the Wim Hof

Time: 1130.28

method quite directly one of the few

Time: 1131.9

studies I'm aware of that's done that so

Time: 1134.12

we'll get to that a little bit later

Time: 1136.1

um so you describe stress as a way that

Time: 1140

the body and mind mobilize energy yeah

Time: 1142.58

and I didn't quite answer your question

Time: 1144.2

so there's there's that acute stress

Time: 1146.299

response when everything every hormone

Time: 1149.24

and cell in our body is having a stress

Time: 1152.48

response and that is allowing us to

Time: 1156.679

reorient focus problem solve it's really

Time: 1159.5

beautiful how much we can increase our

Time: 1162.2

capacity to do things during stress and

Time: 1165.08

then if it you know lasts minutes or

Time: 1168.32

hours we eventually recover and

Time: 1171.5

that is

Time: 1173.72

um what happens all day in a small you

Time: 1176.539

know to small extents with daily

Time: 1178.039

stressors we don't necessarily get so

Time: 1180.44

threatened that we release a lot of

Time: 1182.299

cortisol but our nervous system is going

Time: 1183.919

up and down all day then there are then

Time: 1186.5

there's kind of moderate stressful

Time: 1188.539

events that maybe take days or months to

Time: 1192.14

cope with and what's important there is

Time: 1194.66

that noticing like right now am I really

Time: 1197.059

coping acutely with something or can I

Time: 1199.78

restore so that kind of daily

Time: 1201.74

restoration is very important and then

Time: 1203.72

there are chronically stressful

Time: 1205.88

situations that go on for years many of

Time: 1208.58

us not all of us but many of us have

Time: 1210.32

those in our life These are situations

Time: 1212.9

I'll just use caregiving as an example

Time: 1215.24

of that we can't change we we can't

Time: 1219.2

change other people we can't change

Time: 1220.94

certain situations or resources and we

Time: 1224.6

can

Time: 1226.059

be thinking about them

Time: 1228.919

chronically problem solving trying to

Time: 1231.2

wish things were different

Time: 1233.12

or we can use acceptance radical

Time: 1235.94

acceptance strategies and other

Time: 1237.38

strategies to live well with them and

Time: 1240.44

and so that's a really important

Time: 1242.12

strategy for people who

Time: 1245.179

feel like their their life is going to

Time: 1248.96

be stressful forever because of X or Y

Time: 1251.12

that that's not true you have a harder

Time: 1253.7

life you're going to do more coping but

Time: 1255.62

you can actually be dealing with

Time: 1258.98

uncontrollable chronic stress

Time: 1261.74

in ways that it's not going to take that

Time: 1264.02

toll on your body I mean I study chronic

Time: 1266.179

stress and how it accelerates cell aging

Time: 1267.679

and I can tell you there's so much

Time: 1269.539

variance between people people are so

Time: 1271.46

different so among caregivers some of

Time: 1273.5

them look as biologically young or

Time: 1275.9

younger than our controls people with no

Time: 1278.72

identifiable big tough situation in

Time: 1281.299

their life

Time: 1282.62

I'd love to hear about the um lack of

Time: 1286.039

inevitability around aging and stress I

Time: 1288.5

I realize that there's a big landscape

Time: 1291.679

of of discussion around aging and stress

Time: 1293.9

for us to cover but since you brought it

Time: 1295.94

up in one of your papers there's a

Time: 1299.179

beautiful graph and since a lot of

Time: 1300.679

people are listening not watching and we

Time: 1302.299

don't use visual diagrams for that

Time: 1303.799

reason

Time: 1304.82

I'll try and explain this as best I can

Time: 1307.9

you distinguish between optimal aging

Time: 1311.539

typical aging and accelerated aging I

Time: 1314.659

think everyone

Time: 1315.86

I can imagine would want optimal aging

Time: 1318.14

right certainly not accelerated aging

Time: 1320.299

and what's interesting about this graph

Time: 1322.94

in your paper is that well of course it

Time: 1326

appears that toxic stress chronically

Time: 1328.6

unmitigated stress that makes us feel

Time: 1332.179

like we are at the world's Mercy or the

Time: 1335.78

other people's Mercy will accelerate

Time: 1337.94

aging

Time: 1338.96

turns out that under exposure to stress

Time: 1341.26

leads to more rapid aging than what you

Time: 1344.78

describe as ideal

Time: 1347.12

amounts of stress in other words that no

Time: 1350.72

stress is not the answer

Time: 1352.94

rather to have some stress is ideal if

Time: 1355.76

you want to have so-called optimal aging

Time: 1358.22

can you explain a little bit about the

Time: 1361.22

mechanisms behind that maybe this is a

Time: 1363.26

good opportunity also to tell us about

Time: 1365.419

your telomere work

Time: 1367.48

so the questions are

Time: 1370.159

how does one measure optimal versus

Time: 1373.039

accelerated aging and why would it be

Time: 1376.159

that some stress is better than no

Time: 1378.679

stress when it comes to aging uh ideally

Time: 1383.72

so

Time: 1385.039

having no stress means we're not really

Time: 1387.08

living like we're not engaging in the

Time: 1390.74

gifts of Life which are inevitably have

Time: 1393.44

some Challenge and risk and let me give

Time: 1396.44

you an example one study took um

Time: 1399.74

elderly people who retired and they you

Time: 1403.52

know Society kind of labels them as

Time: 1405.919

you're kind of done with your meaningful

Time: 1407.419

work in life and

Time: 1409.82

um your you know you are pretty much not

Time: 1414.02

able to contribute to society I mean

Time: 1415.46

there's so many negative stereotypes

Time: 1416.78

that people then kind of embody and then

Time: 1418.4

live

Time: 1419.48

um in this program brought them to work

Time: 1422.179

in schools and tutor young at-risk

Time: 1425.419

students and what happened to them is

Time: 1428.539

they went from feeling maybe safe and

Time: 1431.24

under stressed to feeling

Time: 1434.44

challenged but generative they were

Time: 1438.32

feeling more purpose they were feeling

Time: 1440.48

like they were growing and they were

Time: 1442.76

feeling like their day had more meaning

Time: 1445.4

they had more relationships they had

Time: 1448.82

these caring relationships with the

Time: 1450.98

students the students had all sorts of

Time: 1453.74

issues and troubles drugs and and maybe

Time: 1456.62

not having lunch poverty and so they

Time: 1459.2

felt the stress of that but they also

Time: 1461.659

saw how much they could help with their

Time: 1463.7

support and their tutoring and in these

Time: 1466.52

study they they took images of the

Time: 1468.74

hippocampus and those who engaged in the

Time: 1471.86

program particularly the men actually

Time: 1473.659

had growth of their hippocampus during

Time: 1476.059

this program so at any stage in life we

Time: 1479.72

can be growing and challenging ourselves

Time: 1481.7

even in our much later years and growing

Time: 1484.64

our brain and you know more than anyone

Time: 1486.679

like what is that hippocampal growth

Time: 1488.78

mean for their well-being and their

Time: 1491.36

cognitive function

Time: 1492.919

yeah it's interesting that hippocampus

Time: 1494.9

of course a brain area involved in

Time: 1496.34

formation and recall of memories mostly

Time: 1499.82

formation of memories

Time: 1501.38

um it's super interesting because it's

Time: 1502.58

so plastic it's so amenable to the

Time: 1505.64

addition of new memories I think the

Time: 1508.159

most striking study to me is the one

Time: 1510.679

and I should point out that most of the

Time: 1512.84

data say that the addition of new

Time: 1514.82

neurons is not the main reason for

Time: 1516.5

improvements in memory but it is one of

Time: 1518.659

them

Time: 1519.679

um but Rusty gauged out the Salk

Time: 1521.36

Institute did a study in the I think the

Time: 1523.46

early 2000s where they took terminally

Time: 1525.559

ill people and these people agreed to

Time: 1528.26

have their bodies injected with a Dye

Time: 1530.12

that would label new neurons and then

Time: 1533.179

after they died their brains were

Time: 1534.799

processed

Time: 1536.36

um and they didn't die from the dye

Time: 1538.34

injection by the way folks they died

Time: 1539.48

from other causes they were terminally

Time: 1540.98

ill and what they discovered was that

Time: 1543.2

even in terminally ill or or and some of

Time: 1546.86

these people were quite old those people

Time: 1551.24

were still generating new neurons

Time: 1553.12

especially in the context of still

Time: 1555.26

trying to learn and and acquire new

Time: 1557.179

information so wow um of course they're

Time: 1559.64

dead so they can't apply that

Time: 1560.72

information after that but of course

Time: 1562.1

none of us can right none of the

Time: 1563.36

information but why not up to when you

Time: 1565.22

die right absolutely yeah absolutely one

Time: 1567.32

other example of this my colleague Dave

Time: 1568.94

Almeida he measures you know daily

Time: 1571.1

stressful events in huge National

Time: 1572.72

populations and a small percentage of

Time: 1574.94

people report no stressors and so you

Time: 1578.12

wonder like what's happening are they

Time: 1579.74

not engaging in life are they really not

Time: 1581.36

having stressors it it looks like they

Time: 1584.419

are it's not just that they're not

Time: 1585.799

getting stressed by things they're not

Time: 1587.12

they're not really going out and doing

Time: 1588.62

much and what he found is that their

Time: 1591.559

level of kind of memory and cognition

Time: 1593.659

their cognitive Health was significantly

Time: 1596.72

lower so you can imagine the hippocampal

Time: 1599.6

you know the lack of those

Time: 1602.6

um neuroprogenerative cells they're just

Time: 1604.88

not being stimulated it's super

Time: 1607.52

interesting I wasn't aware of that

Time: 1608.779

result so I appreciate you sharing it I

Time: 1610.58

almost have to wonder if it's like

Time: 1611.779

exercise where you know so many people I

Time: 1615.62

think now everybody hopefully

Time: 1617.179

understands that exercise is going to

Time: 1618.74

lower blood pressure reduce resting

Time: 1620.6

heart rate and proof musculoskeletal

Time: 1623.059

function and bone density all that stuff

Time: 1624.799

but that if you took a snapshot of the

Time: 1627.14

bodily response during exercise

Time: 1629.779

blood pressure is way way up heart rate

Time: 1631.64

is way way up

Time: 1633.679

stress hormones are way up cortisol is

Time: 1635.72

through the roof during a hard workout

Time: 1637.4

immediately afterwards and yet that sets

Time: 1639.679

in motion a series of adaptations that

Time: 1641.299

brings you to a better place most of the

Time: 1643.34

time I almost wonder if stress is the

Time: 1645.08

same

Time: 1645.86

is there any evidence that

Time: 1648.26

short bouts of stress provided that

Time: 1650.48

they're managed well meaning that we

Time: 1652.94

don't spend the next 24 or 48 Hours

Time: 1655.039

ruminating on the stressor but that

Time: 1656.84

we're able to move through the stressor

Time: 1658.279

and resolve it in some way that that's

Time: 1660.2

actually beneficial for us because of

Time: 1662.36

the mobilization of energy stores and

Time: 1664.159

maybe

Time: 1664.94

maybe even changing our threshold for

Time: 1667.4

reacting to stressors in the future

Time: 1670.22

it's a great question and it's one that

Time: 1672.32

I have been chewing on for a while

Time: 1674.12

because we we know as you said that

Time: 1676.58

physical stressors when they're short

Time: 1678.62

and repeated like high intensity

Time: 1680.96

interval training They are promoting not

Time: 1684.799

just aerobic fitness but stress Fitness

Time: 1687.14

people feel less rumination less

Time: 1688.88

depression less anxiety so they're kind

Time: 1691.64

of tuning up the nervous system what

Time: 1693.799

about psychological stressors and we we

Time: 1697.64

know two things so one is I do think

Time: 1699.86

that there is a level of Engagement with

Time: 1702.86

moderate stressors that when we are used

Time: 1706.94

to them we get fit and our stress

Time: 1709.4

resilience builds meaning we're less

Time: 1711.2

threatened by them so let me go deep

Time: 1713.779

into that we can two people can approach

Time: 1716.6

the exact same stressor and one person

Time: 1719.659

is having a pretty overreactive stress

Time: 1723.44

response where they basically are

Time: 1725.9

feeling their survival is threatened so

Time: 1727.58

it's high cortisol High vasoconstriction

Time: 1730.34

and blood pressure goes up equally in

Time: 1733.22

both but the person who's feeling super

Time: 1735.679

threatened either their survival or

Time: 1737.539

their social survival of their ego their

Time: 1740.659

blood pressure went up because of the

Time: 1742.1

vasoconstriction the other person who's

Time: 1744.2

viewing the same stressor as

Time: 1746.36

I can do this this is a great Challenge

Time: 1748.76

and opportunity I have what it takes

Time: 1751.34

those types of thoughts generate a

Time: 1753.98

different hemodynamic response which is

Time: 1755.84

actually more cardiac output so blood

Time: 1758.84

pressure is going up but in this

Time: 1760.039

healthier way more oxygenation to the

Time: 1762.44

brain better problem solving they're

Time: 1764.48

able to maintain this positive outlook

Time: 1766.7

so we've measured the threat challenge

Time: 1768.62

response in many lab studies and we know

Time: 1771.02

lots of things so if you're having more

Time: 1772.82

of the challenge response at the end of

Time: 1775.279

it you're less inflamed so just in the

Time: 1777.44

lab within an hour or two we see that

Time: 1779.96

there they didn't trigger all that

Time: 1781.34

pro-inflammatory response and their

Time: 1783.919

telomeres tend to be longer which is a

Time: 1785.779

measure we can talk more about but

Time: 1787.22

basically it looks like they have a

Time: 1790.58

slower

Time: 1792.02

speed of Aging

Time: 1793.94

that is super interesting you call this

Time: 1795.799

a stress challenge response so we could

Time: 1799.58

call this kind of a

Time: 1801.2

um

Time: 1801.74

to to be really simplistic two types of

Time: 1805.52

psychological stress response feeling

Time: 1807.5

threatened like you're gonna fail you're

Time: 1810.2

embarrassed

Time: 1811.52

um you know that social pain response we

Time: 1813.559

know well that feels terrible

Time: 1815.539

um but that also that huge stress

Time: 1817.46

response when we you know we feel it in

Time: 1820.159

our stomach our heart is pounding it's

Time: 1822.98

just an over exaggerated response that

Time: 1825.62

response biologically is different and

Time: 1828.26

the thoughts that go with it are

Time: 1830.12

different and we recover a lot slower

Time: 1831.679

and then there's the challenge response

Time: 1833.899

which is this it's more of that kind of

Time: 1837.02

activated

Time: 1839.36

um excited response and the beauty is

Time: 1842.779

that there are lots of studies out there

Time: 1844.58

done by emotions and social

Time: 1846.74

psychologists that tilt people toward

Time: 1849.559

the challenge response we can actually

Time: 1851.12

promote that challenge response and so

Time: 1853.34

when you asked about like is it good to

Time: 1855.679

have a repeated stress response

Time: 1858.26

yes if it's if it's manageable right

Time: 1860.96

then we're kind of building the muscle

Time: 1862.46

of stress resilience

Time: 1864.32

I'd like to take a quick break and

Time: 1866.36

acknowledge one of our sponsors athletic

Time: 1868.34

greens athletic greens now called ag-1

Time: 1870.919

is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink

Time: 1873.5

that covers all of your foundational

Time: 1875.179

nutritional needs I've been taking

Time: 1877.159

athletic green since 2012 so I'm

Time: 1879.679

delighted that they're sponsoring the

Time: 1880.94

podcast the reason I started taking

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athletic greens and the reason I still

Time: 1884.059

take athletic greens once are usually

Time: 1886.1

twice a day is that it gets to be the

Time: 1888.679

probiotics that I need for gut health

Time: 1890.419

our gut is very important it's populated

Time: 1892.58

by gut microbiota that communicate with

Time: 1895.279

the brain the immune system and

Time: 1896.539

basically all the biological systems of

Time: 1898.34

our body to strongly impact our

Time: 1900.5

immediate and long-term health and those

Time: 1902.899

probiotics and athletic greens are

Time: 1904.64

optimal and vital for microbiotic health

Time: 1907.46

in addition athletic greens contains a

Time: 1909.74

number of adaptogens vitamins and

Time: 1911.12

minerals that make sure that all of my

Time: 1912.799

foundational nutritional needs are met

Time: 1914.48

and it tastes great if you'd like to try

Time: 1917.48

athletic greens you can go to

Time: 1919

athleticgreens.com huberman and they'll

Time: 1922.159

give you five free travel packs that

Time: 1923.779

make it really easy to mix up athletic

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greens while you're on the road in the

Time: 1927.08

car on the plane Etc and they'll give

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you a year's supply of vitamin d3k2

Time: 1931.7

again that's athleticgreens.com huberman

Time: 1934.279

to get the five free travel packs and

Time: 1936.14

the year supply of vitamin D3 K2 what

Time: 1939.32

are the sorts of things that

Time: 1941.299

people I can do in order including me I

Time: 1944.899

should say

Time: 1945.799

um can do in order to wage that

Time: 1949.52

challenge response is this purely based

Time: 1952.279

on mindset like instead of saying why me

Time: 1955.1

why this why now I can't believe this is

Time: 1957.62

happening is it a mental pivot to okay

Time: 1961.34

this is a great opportunity for growth

Time: 1963.919

I don't know how I'm going to manage

Time: 1965.299

this but I'll manage this

Time: 1967.82

um you know you want to stop me you got

Time: 1969.559

to kill me type of type of mindset is

Time: 1971.72

that is that the switch that then the

Time: 1974.539

body follows because this is an

Time: 1976.22

interesting instance where

Time: 1977.779

the uh most all the

Time: 1980.36

stress mitigation work that my lab does

Time: 1982.279

is focused on using the body to control

Time: 1983.779

the mind but here we're talking about

Time: 1984.98

the Mind controlling the body first and

Time: 1987.08

then the body following suit which I

Time: 1989.12

find equally fascinating so are there

Time: 1992.659

some specific mental scripts that people

Time: 1994.82

follow and are we all able to follow

Time: 1998.72

those those scripts yes to some extent

Time: 2001.539

we control the script we can use that

Time: 2004.72

script to prepare ourselves going into a

Time: 2007.299

stressful situation and we can use it at

Time: 2009.94

any point during the stress or so some

Time: 2012.039

of us are just wired to have a big

Time: 2013.96

threat response period maybe it's you

Time: 2016.059

know it's uh epigenetics We've inherited

Time: 2018.58

maybe it's early trauma that has shaped

Time: 2021.1

us to be ex have this exaggerated

Time: 2023.38

emotional response and yes we and others

Time: 2025.419

have found that trauma sensitizes our

Time: 2028.179

emotional stress response so that we are

Time: 2030.34

feeling more threatened but that's okay

Time: 2032.44

because that's the part we can't control

Time: 2034.24

and we just have to have a lot of

Time: 2036.36

self-compassion and awareness that okay

Time: 2039.94

the this is what I do my body reacts

Time: 2042.399

like this but what happens next that's

Time: 2045.64

when we can start to use those

Time: 2047.919

statements self-comforting

Time: 2049.72

self-compassion distancing there's all

Time: 2052.3

sorts of statements that allow us to

Time: 2054.04

then recover more quickly

Time: 2057.399

so when we want to shift from a

Time: 2061.119

threatened response to a kind of

Time: 2063.22

challenge response

Time: 2064.96

are there any data that dictate whether

Time: 2067.899

or not we should

Time: 2069.399

keep those statements in our head write

Time: 2071.619

them down say them out loud I guess what

Time: 2073.78

I'm trying to do here is trying to get

Time: 2074.859

to a little bit more of the the meat of

Time: 2077.08

the the actionable so since a lot of our

Time: 2079.72

listeners so I think we'll be

Time: 2081.879

um as I am very excited about the idea

Time: 2083.98

that a mere shift in our mentality about

Time: 2086.379

stress can give us the opposite outcome

Time: 2088.599

I mean before you're talking about

Time: 2089.44

vasoconstriction and inflammation and

Time: 2091.96

all these bad things

Time: 2094.06

to um put it lightly and then

Time: 2097.72

in the challenge response to stress

Time: 2099.64

getting the exact opposite more

Time: 2101.56

vasodilation more resources used and

Time: 2103.839

more positive effects on the brain and

Time: 2105.94

body yeah so what what are some um if if

Time: 2109

you can recall from the papers if not

Time: 2110.619

that's fine but I'm just curious what

Time: 2112.48

what those specific tools might be every

Time: 2115.359

statement you said Andrew is good it's a

Time: 2118.119

good one the whole trick here is that

Time: 2120.46

people need to find the the strength

Time: 2123.46

statements the stress Shields I call

Time: 2125.56

them that fit them that that feels right

Time: 2127.78

and that they believe and so they're you

Time: 2131.14

know I list a bunch of options in

Time: 2133.119

chapter three which is called be the

Time: 2135.04

lion instead of the gazelle so the Blind

Time: 2137.5

and gazelle are both you know high blood

Time: 2139.42

pressure high stress and the Lion's

Time: 2141.28

chasing the gazelle but the gazelles

Time: 2143.44

having this total threat

Time: 2144.76

vasoconstriction response because

Time: 2147.28

um she might die lion might get dinner

Time: 2150.04

right so it's needing to mount the

Time: 2151.78

stress response because it's so excited

Time: 2154.66

to get the tasty dinner for you know the

Time: 2157.24

next few days and so the lion is having

Time: 2159.16

that challenge response and so we can

Time: 2161.92

remind ourselves be the lion we it's

Time: 2164.26

it's not that we're always lying or

Time: 2165.88

gazelle we get to shape that and so some

Time: 2169.119

of those statements are well let's say

Time: 2170.8

right when when we're going into it list

Time: 2173.68

your resources why have you ever dealt

Time: 2176.2

with any situation like this remind

Time: 2177.88

yourself of past successes remind

Time: 2180.099

yourself of someone you can call or text

Time: 2182.619

or feel supported by remind yourself

Time: 2185.32

that this outcome is not going to affect

Time: 2187.96

your life in 10 years or five years

Time: 2189.76

that's a distancing kind of um

Time: 2192.04

perspective taking so there's all these

Time: 2194.38

strategies and and you got to use what

Time: 2196.54

works for you telling yourself I got

Time: 2198.82

this I can do it I can get through it I

Time: 2201.22

have what it takes those are all good

Time: 2203.38

Shields and another set is you know

Time: 2206.56

we've some of us feel really stressed

Time: 2208.48

out by stress like once we get feel our

Time: 2210.64

heart racing that leads to oh no you

Time: 2214.18

know this is bad for me and so rather

Time: 2217.78

than than getting stressed by stress we

Time: 2220.359

actually want to remind ourselves that

Time: 2222.339

this stress response is empowering this

Time: 2225.7

is going to help me cope

Time: 2227.8

my body's excited my body is doing just

Time: 2231.82

what it should right now

Time: 2233.5

so that reframing in Studies by Wendy

Time: 2236.74

Mendez and others my my colleagues who

Time: 2238.839

do these reappraisal research they have

Time: 2241.18

basically trained people to view stress

Time: 2242.98

as positive during the stressful

Time: 2245.98

situations in the lab people do better

Time: 2248.74

they perform better they feel more

Time: 2250.78

positive emotion they problem solve

Time: 2252.64

better they recover more quickly so

Time: 2255.4

pretty powerful stuff

Time: 2257.2

yeah that is powerful stuff I'm

Time: 2260.02

wondering if we can talk about the

Time: 2261.4

relationship between stress and eating

Time: 2263.339

and I think that's also a great

Time: 2265.54

opportunity for us to talk about the

Time: 2266.98

opioid system a lot of people are

Time: 2268.42

familiar with the so-called um opioid

Time: 2270.7

epidemic and opioid crisis

Time: 2272.859

um you know sadly you know

Time: 2275.2

far too many people are dying a fentanyl

Time: 2277.119

overdoses and we all know about the oxy

Time: 2279.9

content epidemic and all these people

Time: 2282.76

addicted to opioids and

Time: 2284.619

that's not really what this is about

Time: 2287.859

um what we're about to talk about is the

Time: 2290.079

fact that we have an opioid system

Time: 2292.24

within us that is neurons and other cell

Time: 2295.839

types that can reduce excuse me can

Time: 2297.88

release substances into our brain and

Time: 2299.859

body that make us feel less pain and

Time: 2301.9

make us feel sedated but at a healthy

Time: 2304.3

level right and yet there are a lot of

Time: 2306.46

things besides drugs that can activate

Time: 2309.52

this opioid system

Time: 2311.619

um I think sexo activates the endogenous

Time: 2313.9

opioid system as far as a last read

Time: 2316.24

there was a paper out recently but also

Time: 2317.8

food can do it

Time: 2319.3

um and again to healthy levels um

Time: 2321.64

provided the context is healthy of

Time: 2323.079

course what is the relationship between

Time: 2325.24

stress and eating

Time: 2327.579

and eating and the opioid system

Time: 2332.02

stress and eating is an interesting one

Time: 2334.18

so most people when they feel stressed

Time: 2337.359

or you know I'm just gonna ask you do

Time: 2339.4

you eat more or less when you're

Time: 2341.02

stressed less definitely I feel like I

Time: 2343.599

can go two three days without food when

Time: 2345.94

I'm when I'm really stressed but I came

Time: 2348.64

up in a profession where

Time: 2350.5

um sadly for me all-nighters were

Time: 2353.44

part of the regular until pretty

Time: 2355.18

recently a couple years ago when I just

Time: 2357.4

called an end to that

Time: 2359.619

um and no it wasn't just because of

Time: 2361.3

procrastination it was just work

Time: 2362.619

overload but I can go a long period of

Time: 2365.14

time without eating although I love to

Time: 2367.3

eat so I do point out that I do love to

Time: 2370.359

eat and what does the body feel like

Time: 2371.619

when you're in that stress State when

Time: 2373.119

you're not even hungry you're kind of

Time: 2374.44

shut down in your digestion that I have

Time: 2377.5

enough energy from my neural resources

Time: 2379.599

from adrenaline and

Time: 2382.42

generally those periods of time when I'm

Time: 2384.46

not hungry coincide with a hyper focus

Time: 2387.76

on the stressor the deadline whatever it

Time: 2391.18

is in life that that needs tending too

Time: 2393.099

and um food just doesn't appeal to me as

Time: 2397

much it doesn't taste as good and it's

Time: 2398.8

not as enticing yeah so we think that

Time: 2402.22

either type of

Time: 2404.5

um body temperament is high sympathetic

Time: 2406.54

and so when you have a big stress

Time: 2408.46

response your digestion is is pretty

Time: 2411.52

much shut down like it would be the

Time: 2413.26

opposite eating would be the opposite of

Time: 2414.88

what your body's telling you to do I

Time: 2416.5

should I'm just gonna forgive me for

Time: 2418.06

interrupting uh for those of you hearing

Time: 2419.56

sympathetic we're we're not talking

Time: 2421.24

about sympathy we're talking about the

Time: 2422.8

uh the sympathetic arm of the autonomic

Time: 2424.78

nervous system which is the so-called

Time: 2426.099

fight or flight as opposed to the

Time: 2427.96

parasympathetic in any event sorry to

Time: 2429.52

interrupt but want to make sure that

Time: 2431.5

um sometimes people hear sympathy and

Time: 2433.18

then they think emotional sympathy

Time: 2434.98

um I like to think I have that too but

Time: 2437.079

um okay so I so I tend to lean more

Time: 2439.599

towards the sympathetic meaning

Time: 2442.24

um more alertness arousal yeah on the

Time: 2445.24

Seesaw of the autonomic nervous system

Time: 2446.8

and I I'm a High

Time: 2448.78

um sympathetic reactor I lose weight

Time: 2450.88

when I go through like writing my

Time: 2452.38

dissertation I look like a skeleton at

Time: 2454

the end

Time: 2454.96

um but that's not what most people

Time: 2456.46

complain about it's not weight loss most

Time: 2458.56

people complain about overeating or

Time: 2460.599

binge eating when they're emotional when

Time: 2462.339

they're stressed and so that's the more

Time: 2464.38

common pattern and what that that looks

Time: 2467.74

different

Time: 2469.18

both in the brain and biologically and

Time: 2471.88

so what it looks like is that the stress

Time: 2476.8

response is driving cravings and also

Time: 2480.76

let's say high insulin or an insulin

Time: 2483.099

resistant State and what goes along with

Time: 2485.859

that is tending to be overweight or have

Time: 2488.14

obesity and so just by whether it's

Time: 2491.619

through conditioning or genetics having

Time: 2494.079

that kind of larger body with a big

Time: 2496.72

stress eating temperament that is a

Time: 2499

challenge in life and I've been you know

Time: 2501.94

I've worked with people with different

Time: 2503.38

eating conditions Eating Disorders binge

Time: 2505.359

eating and it is

Time: 2507.9

a um what's hard about it is number one

Time: 2511.48

it's very common and normative to just

Time: 2513.7

feel like

Time: 2515.5

you can't feel satiated so it's this

Time: 2518.38

compulsive eating tendency that stress

Time: 2520.3

brings you to and

Time: 2523.119

so the so what it mean we measure this

Time: 2526

is very easy to measure it means that

Time: 2527.38

people feel like they can't control

Time: 2529.72

their eating they don't get full

Time: 2532.42

um they think about food a lot and so

Time: 2536.14

stress kind of exacerbates that tendency

Time: 2538

and that is a you know it's a it's a

Time: 2540.82

common phenotype like we've studied it

Time: 2542.5

and maybe 50 of people with obesity have

Time: 2544.66

that

Time: 2545.68

um do lean people have that some not

Time: 2548.32

many like less than 20 percent but what

Time: 2550.839

they also have is this tremendous kind

Time: 2552.94

of uh diet what we call dietary friend

Time: 2555.16

or control over their eating so they're

Time: 2556.96

they're able to

Time: 2558.88

to not overeat even though they're

Time: 2562.18

thinking about food a lot

Time: 2563.8

so that's that is you know that explains

Time: 2566.44

that unusual

Time: 2568.24

body of someone who's really more

Time: 2571.96

um still has those compulsive traits so

Time: 2574.42

why does this matter this makes it

Time: 2577.3

really hard to eat well because when

Time: 2579.52

you're stressed you Dr you're craving

Time: 2581.619

the comfort food the high fat high sugar

Time: 2583.66

high salt

Time: 2585

depending on your temperament and that

Time: 2588.76

is

Time: 2590.02

that means with repeated bouts of stress

Time: 2592.359

you're just going to be gaining weight

Time: 2593.56

and particularly in the intra-abdominal

Time: 2595.24

area that's what we've seen we've seen

Time: 2597.28

it cross-sectionally we've seen it in

Time: 2598.839

rest studies in my studies and now we've

Time: 2601.54

seen it in people and many stuff for

Time: 2603.339

about 10 years I study this and the

Time: 2605.079

question was is what's happening in

Time: 2607.119

people the same thing that's happening

Time: 2608.38

in mice if you stress them out and you

Time: 2610.42

give them Oreos the mice develop binge

Time: 2613.42

eating they get really compulsive and

Time: 2615.52

they get this you know terrible

Time: 2616.72

metabolic Health profile metabolic

Time: 2618.88

syndrome where they're they're round you

Time: 2621.76

know they're in their belly fat

Time: 2623.319

basically expands like a cushion and

Time: 2626.02

that's because that's this really good

Time: 2627.52

immediate source of energy during stress

Time: 2629.44

so like we're really well wired to if

Time: 2632.02

our body thinks we're under chronic

Time: 2633.4

stress we're going to store stress fat

Time: 2635.5

or abdominal fat so we can just mobilize

Time: 2637.78

that in a second and then the second

Time: 2640.3

question we've asked is can you reverse

Time: 2642.52

that with different interventions can

Time: 2644.5

you can you block the compulsive eating

Time: 2647.14

um so I can I can tell you what we found

Time: 2649.18

there but the opioid system that you

Time: 2651.4

mentioned is certainly involved and in

Time: 2654.16

studies with people lean people and

Time: 2658

people with obesity my colleague rajita

Time: 2660.339

Sinha Yale it's basically found that

Time: 2662.44

when you stress them out people with

Time: 2664.96

obesity are having a different reward

Time: 2668.44

response and they're having their the

Time: 2671.619

more insulin resistant they are the more

Time: 2673.359

their Reward Center lights up during

Time: 2675.04

stress and what's causal there like

Time: 2678.88

what's the chicken what's the egg sir

Time: 2680.5

because I can imagine these were people

Time: 2682.3

that at one time were not obese who got

Time: 2685.359

stressed

Time: 2686.52

the opioid system

Time: 2688.92

reacted in a particularly potent way to

Time: 2693.46

food and they were able to clamp their

Time: 2695.98

stress and so then they become or binge

Time: 2698.26

eaters in the context of stress yeah and

Time: 2701.92

that leads to insulin insensitivity

Time: 2704.26

exactly I could also imagine that they

Time: 2706.24

were insulin insensitive therefore they

Time: 2708.579

need to eat more in order to feel come

Time: 2709.96

of an increase in uh

Time: 2712.56

satiety because we know this

Time: 2715.54

um now based on brain and body

Time: 2718.3

mechanisms and then that set off a

Time: 2720.819

Cascade of things leading to obesity

Time: 2723.28

um not that it necessarily matters but

Time: 2725.8

what's causal do we know I think it

Time: 2728.38

really does matter I think there's been

Time: 2729.94

a you know a mistake of kind of

Time: 2732.4

confounding all obesity with food

Time: 2734.319

addiction and

Time: 2736.18

um and metabolic disease and it's

Time: 2738.52

completely heterogeneous so I I think

Time: 2740.5

it's the developmental path that you're

Time: 2741.76

describing which is that

Time: 2743.859

um there's a tendency toward having a

Time: 2747.099

bigger reward response and hunger during

Time: 2749.98

stress so it becomes a way of coping a

Time: 2752.56

lifestyle and and that is a pathway

Time: 2755.2

toward obesity and so some obese people

Time: 2759.52

have a dysregulated stress response

Time: 2762.099

but I but not all of them I mean it

Time: 2763.9

really is a certain type of person so

Time: 2766.54

that's why we target people with

Time: 2769.06

Cravings in all of our intervention

Time: 2770.5

studies now we want to know who has more

Time: 2773.98

of the compulsive eating type because

Time: 2775.359

they need a different set of skills to

Time: 2779.079

cope with stress and to lose weight if

Time: 2782.319

that's their goal

Time: 2783.7

there's a drug I'm sure you're familiar

Time: 2785.98

with Naltrexone which it can block the

Time: 2787.72

opioid receptor it's used to block the

Time: 2790.18

opiated receptor in the context of

Time: 2791.68

different types of addiction have people

Time: 2793.54

tried to use Naltrexone in the context

Time: 2795.76

of binge eating and does it help people

Time: 2797.2

lose weight because

Time: 2799.079

it presumably reduces some of the

Time: 2801.819

rewarding properties of food

Time: 2804.04

that's one of the very few drug

Time: 2806.859

combinations that has been used for

Time: 2808.18

binge eating so it was a combination of

Time: 2809.619

Naltrexone and Wellbutrin and I'm not

Time: 2812.319

sure at this moment how much

Time: 2814.3

um that's favored for binge eating but

Time: 2816.4

certainly the early trials showed that

Time: 2818.02

it really does damp down on the

Time: 2819.88

compulsive eating interesting so is that

Time: 2821.68

a commonly prescribed uh kit of drugs

Time: 2825.16

now for for obesity I know there's a lot

Time: 2826.96

of excitement nowadays about these

Time: 2828.22

semi-glue tied yeah

Time: 2830.26

um uh analogs because they do seem very

Time: 2832.96

effective in blocking hunger especially

Time: 2834.7

in type 2 diabetics I don't know if

Time: 2836.2

you're familiar with but right they're

Time: 2837.579

sort of all the rage uh mostly because

Time: 2839.14

people saw the before and after photos

Time: 2840.7

of Elon he had his shirt off on a boat

Time: 2842.74

and there were some not so nice comments

Time: 2844.9

made about him and then sometime later

Time: 2846.46

he was quite a bit lighter and um he

Time: 2849.16

announced that he had been taking one of

Time: 2850.3

these semi-glue tied agonists yeah yeah

Time: 2853.2

I really hope that we come up with

Time: 2856.54

um safe and effective drugs and one

Time: 2859.72

thing to think about is that the the

Time: 2862.66

challenge that we all have particularly

Time: 2865.18

for prone to obesity is the toxic food

Time: 2867.64

environment and particularly the refined

Time: 2869.14

sugar and regardless of what we're on

Time: 2871.96

Metformin or one of these drugs we

Time: 2874.06

override it with our diet and and really

Time: 2876.359

the improved nutrition is the only way

Time: 2879.099

to solve it as a public health problem I

Time: 2880.839

mean the drug companies are saying

Time: 2881.92

everyone should be you know everyone

Time: 2883.24

with a certain I should be on one of

Time: 2885.099

these new drugs and it's just rubbish

Time: 2886.96

and it's not going to lead to long-term

Time: 2888.88

health

Time: 2889.839

well I know you have a colleague there

Time: 2892.24

at UCSF um Dr Robert lustig who's been

Time: 2895.119

talking about sugars and hidden sugars

Time: 2897.339

for years and the problems with that and

Time: 2899.2

and we don't want to demonize sugar as

Time: 2901.359

the only cause of the Obesity epidemic

Time: 2904.119

but it's certainly one of them at least

Time: 2905.5

that's my belief according to the data

Time: 2907.599

yes and Rob is the biggest proponent of

Time: 2910.54

you know of helping people understand

Time: 2913

the big problem and the root is in the

Time: 2915.52

processed food and the sugar and that

Time: 2917.92

the drugs don't touch that we just we

Time: 2920.44

override effects of any drugs with our

Time: 2923.02

diet and and so it's

Time: 2926.14

um It's been a

Time: 2928.54

a losing battle really because of the

Time: 2931.8

force of big food and big Pharma

Time: 2935.5

so let me go back to the the compulsive

Time: 2937.839

eating so we've we've we've um there are

Time: 2940.48

some clues about how to break that cycle

Time: 2941.8

so one is in our weight loss trials or

Time: 2945.52

our healthy mindful eating trials we

Time: 2947.98

find that

Time: 2949.8

mindful eating is not going to cause a

Time: 2952.24

lot of weight loss period but the people

Time: 2954.4

who benefit most from learning this kind

Time: 2956.98

of calm self-regulation where you check

Time: 2959.56

in with your hunger you slow down you

Time: 2962.8

increase your awareness of your body so

Time: 2965.38

in terreceptive awareness

Time: 2967.44

that

Time: 2969.099

um type of

Time: 2970.9

skill is really critical for people with

Time: 2974.14

compulsive eating and so in our trials

Time: 2976.3

we find that if they people with

Time: 2978.22

compulsive eating if they get that if

Time: 2979.78

they get randomized to the mindful

Time: 2981.099

eating they do better in terms of their

Time: 2983.74

insulin resistance and their glucose and

Time: 2986.14

their long-term weight loss so that's

Time: 2988.119

one good clue another is

Time: 2990.4

the positive stress pathway looks

Time: 2993.28

important for breaking the compulsive

Time: 2994.9

eating cycle so high intensity to

Time: 2997.48

interval training or you know maybe some

Time: 3000.599

of these other ways that we've been been

Time: 3002.579

talking about to increase the bodily

Time: 3005.16

stress in these short-term ways to

Time: 3006.9

metabolize stress in our body can help

Time: 3009.06

with the cravings

Time: 3010.56

so what would that look like in the

Time: 3012.24

context of let's say somebody

Time: 3014.16

um has the opposite phenotype to me they

Time: 3015.78

get stressed and they find themselves

Time: 3017.099

reaching for snack food or that they

Time: 3019.02

simply can't reach satiety they just

Time: 3021.119

want to eat and eat and eat

Time: 3022.859

um what are some of the aside from

Time: 3024.48

Naltrexone and Wellbutrin and some of

Time: 3026.28

these prescription approaches because I

Time: 3028.44

always say while I value certainly value

Time: 3031.44

prescription drugs in certain contexts I

Time: 3033.24

always feel like behaviors should come

Time: 3034.619

first do's and don'ts

Time: 3036.66

than nutrition then supplementation and

Time: 3039.839

then if and only if it's still needed

Time: 3041.76

prescription drugs but that's just my

Time: 3043.38

bias based on my observations

Time: 3045.72

I like to think so uh it also is a uh it

Time: 3048.72

starts at a zero cost um Endeavor I mean

Time: 3051.9

behaviors require time but it certainly

Time: 3054.839

um includes everybody not just those

Time: 3057

that have insurance or that live in a

Time: 3059.04

particular region of the US or the world

Time: 3060.78

so anyway

Time: 3062.579

um that's my bias and at least for the

Time: 3064.38

time being I'm sticking with it

Time: 3066.18

um it's the basis of a lot of what we

Time: 3067.559

talk about on this podcast but

Time: 3068.7

nonetheless if somebody is uh finding

Time: 3072.24

themselves in that category of binge

Time: 3074.76

eating or heading towards binge eating

Time: 3076.68

or using food to comfort or alleviate

Time: 3079.38

stress

Time: 3081.059

how should they intervene in their own

Time: 3083.28

thoughts and behavior we talked about

Time: 3085.98

the the bins top down strategies

Time: 3088.44

changing the body changing the scene we

Time: 3090.54

need all of those I mean the the

Time: 3092.04

compulsive drive to eat is one of our

Time: 3094.74

you know strongest impulses if we've

Time: 3097.5

developed that pathway and so the we

Time: 3101.339

train people for example in mindful

Time: 3104.46

awareness of separating out emotions

Time: 3106.5

from Hunger so they get really wrapped

Time: 3108.54

up together so just labeling how you're

Time: 3110.16

feeling labeling your hunger from one to

Time: 3112.859

ten and figuring out is it am I really

Time: 3115.079

hungrier as a boredom that helps people

Time: 3117.599

and if you do that check-in right before

Time: 3119.339

you eat that helps the most so that's

Time: 3121.92

the top-down mindful check-in the uh

Time: 3125.7

other thing we help people do is like

Time: 3128.78

right the craving surf the herbs so if

Time: 3132.3

we deal a lot with soda Drinkers and it

Time: 3135.96

is addictive and there is nothing worse

Time: 3139.02

than drinking sugar soda for our body so

Time: 3141.839

we help people by help um having them

Time: 3146.04

watch their craving pass and and knowing

Time: 3150

that it's a matter of time that they can

Time: 3151.559

surf the urge without jumping to

Time: 3153.599

consuming and so that practice helps

Time: 3156.599

some people especially with practice

Time: 3158.94

the push-ups the taking a walk the

Time: 3161.76

changing the scene getting away from

Time: 3163.619

food is always going to be a huge strong

Time: 3166.559

strategy if you can get yourself away

Time: 3168.48

from it the the problem is as you know

Time: 3171.66

is that the Cravings get you to the

Time: 3173.4

buffet they drive you to the the soda

Time: 3176.52

Etc and so just you know creating safe

Time: 3179.64

environments both at home and in the

Time: 3181.079

workplace where you don't have soda is

Time: 3182.76

really important so we try that at UCSF

Time: 3185.28

my colleagues and I um including Rob

Time: 3187.5

lustig the anti-sugar doctor we just saw

Time: 3191.7

the absurdity of being a medical center

Time: 3194.46

people come with these chronic diseases

Time: 3196.68

and what are they served in the

Time: 3199.26

cafeteria or even at their bedside

Time: 3201.78

sugared Coke in the hospital in the

Time: 3203.94

hospital and so my colleague Laura

Time: 3207.059

Schmidt who's uh partly responsible for

Time: 3209.52

the soda tax she rallied the all the

Time: 3213.96

um we went top down to Administration

Time: 3215.819

but bottom up to vendors got rid of all

Time: 3218.28

the soda in all of our hospitals and

Time: 3219.9

campuses and we found two things number

Time: 3222.48

one

Time: 3223.98

people who were heavy drinkers

Time: 3226.7

lost weight in the most important Place

Time: 3230.04

their waste heavy soda drinkers so when

Time: 3233.339

we took it out of the workplace

Time: 3235.14

they actually had their health improved

Time: 3237.42

and number two those with compulsive

Time: 3241.559

eating they score high on our our little

Time: 3243.96

scale for

Time: 3245.099

um reward based Drive

Time: 3247.92

it didn't help them

Time: 3249.72

so then we randomized half of them to

Time: 3252.9

get some extra boost we call it

Time: 3254.76

motivational interviewing where we're

Time: 3256.2

really supporting them more and helping

Time: 3258.119

them you know think of goals like being

Time: 3260.28

with their grandchildren not getting

Time: 3261.78

diabetes and in that little bit of

Time: 3264.48

support helped them tremendously and so

Time: 3267.96

now we're trying to roll that out in you

Time: 3270.54

know a big controlled trial but at least

Time: 3273.42

100 hospitals have adopted the

Time: 3276.42

um stop selling sugary drinks because

Time: 3278.64

people don't want to be sick but they

Time: 3280.559

can't help it if they have the reward

Time: 3282.839

drive and if they have the compulsivity

Time: 3284.579

and it's right there at work we're just

Time: 3286.38

working against health

Time: 3288.96

super interesting I think that um

Time: 3292.02

for most of us we think about sodas the

Time: 3295.14

kind of thing that maybe we have every

Time: 3297.3

once in a while or that we drank more

Time: 3298.619

when we were kids I seem to have lost my

Time: 3300.3

appetite for soda at some point you just

Time: 3302.94

know too much teen years maybe or just

Time: 3305.22

at some point I I started to feel like

Time: 3307.8

there were better Alternatives

Time: 3310.079

um and you know like what well okay well

Time: 3312.54

people want ideas yeah well full

Time: 3314.22

confession I mean okay most of my

Time: 3316.26

non-water uh beverage consumption is

Time: 3319.2

going to be either coffee

Time: 3322.44

um usually black coffee or nowadays I

Time: 3324.24

sometimes will throw some ketones in

Time: 3325.619

there not because I'm on a ketogenic

Time: 3327.119

diet but for I do feel like it makes my

Time: 3329.46

uh level of focus and cognition better

Time: 3331.68

pouring in this morning yeah I do use it

Time: 3333.66

before podcasts and we're prepping for

Time: 3335.579

podcasts it

Time: 3337.079

um there are good data showing that uh

Time: 3340.079

we can all utilize ketones as a as a

Time: 3342.9

brain fuel even if we're not on a

Time: 3344.339

ketogenic diet that's um clear to me

Time: 3346.74

based on my experience and the data as I

Time: 3348.72

see them and understand them

Time: 3350.7

um or yerba mate tea which is just a

Time: 3353.819

caffeinated tea from South America which

Time: 3357.24

I like very much

Time: 3358.74

um

Time: 3359.4

however I am guilty of drinking the

Time: 3362.28

occasional diet soda every once in a

Time: 3364.02

while and I know that you know some of

Time: 3365.7

my audience will just gasp how could I

Time: 3367.14

do that but we're talking about the

Time: 3367.98

occasional diet soda the occasional Diet

Time: 3370.559

Coke mostly because I I don't like the

Time: 3372.54

taste of sugary soda and I actually

Time: 3374.579

really like the taste of diet soda

Time: 3376.44

Aspartame is a particularly rewarding

Time: 3378.42

taste for me

Time: 3380.04

um and as a consequence I try and avoid

Time: 3382.74

drinking it more than I might have a can

Time: 3385.14

of Diet Coke once a month maximum

Time: 3388.14

usually on a plane or something like

Time: 3390.3

that so that's the extent of it but if I

Time: 3393.599

have the choice between a really great

Time: 3395.16

coffee and a soda it's going to be

Time: 3397.14

coffee or yerba mate soda it's gonna be

Time: 3399

yerba mate

Time: 3400.319

um or food and soda I'm gonna eat

Time: 3402.48

instead and so that's me but I do recall

Time: 3405.24

you know as a teenager soda was kind of

Time: 3408.059

a default you just kind of like go to

Time: 3409.5

the soda fountain and fill the drink it

Time: 3411.059

felt like such a rewarding thing

Time: 3413.22

um and I think the reason we're drilling

Time: 3414.599

into this more deeply is it sounds to me

Time: 3416.46

based on what you said earlier in my

Time: 3417.72

read of the literature also brings me

Time: 3419.76

the idea that that

Time: 3422.18

drinking sugar in the form of liquid is

Time: 3425.22

one of the worst things that we can do

Time: 3426.359

in terms of our bodily regulation of

Time: 3428.28

insulin and glucose

Time: 3430.26

um it's I don't want to use the words

Time: 3431.88

empty calories because that's kind of a

Time: 3433.5

loaded phrase but it is essentially

Time: 3434.88

empty calories it doesn't work it's

Time: 3436.26

harmful calories they're not empty yeah

Time: 3437.819

I mean there are no amino acids in there

Time: 3439.5

they're no essential fatty acids and

Time: 3441.18

there aren't many carbohydrates that you

Time: 3442.5

can really utilize for

Time: 3444.24

um long-term bouts of mental or physical

Time: 3446.22

work so so what do you view soda as one

Time: 3450.54

of the um the worst certainly not the

Time: 3454.44

best but one of the worst culprits out

Time: 3456.24

there I mean it is really prominent

Time: 3457.8

especially nowadays also we should

Time: 3459.359

include energy drinks a lot of kids

Time: 3461.099

especially males by the way it's it's

Time: 3463.38

almost this is crazy it's almost 95 of

Time: 3467.28

energy drink consumption is males

Time: 3469.5

interesting and I don't know what what

Time: 3471.599

is maybe it's the packaging or who how

Time: 3473.4

the marketing has been pitched but by

Time: 3475.859

the way as soon as I say that someone

Time: 3477.059

will be in the YouTube comments telling

Time: 3478.559

me that that's completely false but we

Time: 3480

can point you the data um so what are

Time: 3482.22

your thoughts on sugary drinks and what

Time: 3484.02

that's doing

Time: 3485.16

um

Time: 3485.819

how it do you think this is a reaction

Time: 3487.859

to how much stress people people are

Time: 3489.599

experiencing is this like people's

Time: 3491.099

attempt to to inoculate their stress or

Time: 3493.74

is it simply that it tastes good and

Time: 3495.059

it's easy to consume and it's relatively

Time: 3497.099

inexpensive people have not and we have

Time: 3500.46

not really studied the sugary drinks in

Time: 3504.18

the same way we have studied the comfort

Time: 3506.4

food and the binge eating and so

Time: 3510.54

um my guess is that it is part of a

Time: 3514.5

stress response but even more than that

Time: 3516.42

it's part of the hedonic cycle so when

Time: 3519.42

you get the sugar

Time: 3521.099

especially if it's packed with caffeine

Time: 3522.66

that's going to be a more addictive

Time: 3523.68

drink you get this you know really feel

Time: 3527.52

good response right away and then you

Time: 3530.52

get the low and it's the hedonic

Time: 3532.859

withdrawal so which is this you actually

Time: 3535.44

feel bad when it's been a while since

Time: 3537.78

you've had it and so then it drives the

Time: 3540.18

compulsivity you want it again because

Time: 3542.099

you wanna not because you want to feel

Time: 3543.359

better you want to get rid of feeling

Time: 3544.619

bad so that's what happens with both

Time: 3547.079

food addiction and we think that happens

Time: 3548.76

with sugary drinks now let me tell you

Time: 3550.74

that

Time: 3552.119

when you asked is is a sugary drink one

Time: 3554.579

of the worst things we can do for our

Time: 3555.96

health yes because sugary food

Time: 3559.5

doesn't go to our brain as quickly as a

Time: 3563.46

liquid liquid sugar a sugary drink so

Time: 3565.92

think about cocaine and crap crack goes

Time: 3569.22

to the brain immediately and it's that

Time: 3571.26

much more addictive that's how we think

Time: 3573.299

of liquid sugar

Time: 3574.68

The View on sugar I I think is starting

Time: 3577.559

to change and I think in the years to

Time: 3579.18

come provided folks like you and Dr

Time: 3582.059

lustig continue to uh be vocal about it

Time: 3585

which I hope you will

Time: 3587.339

um I think it's going to shift things

Time: 3588.72

quite a bit I look at it a little bit

Time: 3590.88

like trans fats you know I was growing

Time: 3593.22

up people ate margarine and now like

Time: 3594.9

trans fats are banned in many cities

Time: 3597.66

um it's kind of incredible how these

Time: 3599.099

things have have changed

Time: 3600.9

um over time and it requires an effort

Time: 3603

not just on social media but podcasts

Time: 3605.52

and I think also lobbying

Time: 3607.28

uh lobbying our politicians really

Time: 3609.54

getting them to understand

Time: 3611.46

um just how pernicious this stuff is

Time: 3613.14

there's a lot of social norms that go

Time: 3615.18

into like what's good for for all of us

Time: 3617.819

as a as a group or community and what's

Time: 3620.22

personal choice it's very fiery you know

Time: 3622.859

I just I've heard a colleague talking

Time: 3624.72

about how bringing junk food or soda to

Time: 3627.359

work is like passive smoking you're like

Time: 3629.64

you're bringing something and that's

Time: 3630.839

going to pollute other people's health

Time: 3632.04

and you shouldn't do it so that's that's

Time: 3633.9

much more Edge energy and people will

Time: 3635.579

fight them on that

Time: 3637.079

um but the the basic reality is yeah

Time: 3640.44

we're gonna eat the donuts if they're in

Time: 3642

front of us and so in it is much more

Time: 3644.52

considerate to bring a bowl of fruit

Time: 3651.02

I'm glad you brought up smoking I don't

Time: 3653.28

want to take us off topic but as long as

Time: 3655.14

we're venturing into these general or I

Time: 3657.18

should say more General and yet really

Time: 3658.859

important themes around public health

Time: 3660.299

and food yes I learned something

Time: 3663.18

interesting about smoking and why so few

Time: 3666

people now smoke

Time: 3668.04

um I always thought that the campaigns

Time: 3671.04

around smoking and how terrible it is

Time: 3672.96

for us showing pictures of lungs that

Time: 3675.18

are you know caked with all this tar and

Time: 3677.88

like you you know cancer and all this

Time: 3679.319

stuff was the effective message but what

Time: 3682.26

I learned was that one of the most

Time: 3683.88

effective messaging systems in the the

Time: 3686.54

battle against smoking was to get young

Time: 3689.64

people to stop smoking not by telling

Time: 3692.04

them it was bad for them but by showing

Time: 3694.319

them videos of these um

Time: 3696.66

rich men sitting around tables cackling

Time: 3700.74

about the fact that they're making so

Time: 3702.059

much money on the health problems of

Time: 3704.16

other people because of smoking in other

Time: 3705.54

words what they did is they made being a

Time: 3708.119

non-smoker anti-establishment and so I

Time: 3711.299

find it very interesting anytime there's

Time: 3712.68

something like soda or highly processed

Time: 3715.44

foods that are so woven into the

Time: 3717.119

establishment it seems like though you

Time: 3719.22

can we can tell people until you know

Time: 3721.98

we're blue in the face about all the

Time: 3724.5

health concerns with with these things

Time: 3726.299

you know sugar is bad and this is bad

Time: 3728.22

highly processed food is bad some people

Time: 3730.079

might change their behavior but seems

Time: 3731.64

like for the younger generation the

Time: 3733.44

thing that's most effective is to

Time: 3734.819

activate their sense of rebellion this

Time: 3736.74

has been true for probably hundreds of

Time: 3738.599

thousands of years but it's certainly

Time: 3739.799

true in the last hundred years

Time: 3741.559

and let them see that there is a very

Time: 3744.96

strong

Time: 3746.28

um big food sometimes big Pharma but

Time: 3748.38

certainly big food system that is

Time: 3750.42

working against them and that it in

Time: 3752.76

order to take control of their health

Time: 3754.02

actually we want to activate their sense

Time: 3755.76

of rebellion so that they're like no I'm

Time: 3757.68

going to take excellent care of myself

Time: 3759.059

I'm not going to fall victim to this

Time: 3760.74

monetary scheme and here I'm not

Time: 3762.299

pointing to any conspiracy I mean this

Time: 3763.799

has been seen with smoking this has been

Time: 3765.119

seen with a number of different

Time: 3765.9

Pharmaceuticals again not all

Time: 3767.579

Pharmaceuticals are bad this is true of

Time: 3769.92

a number of different aspects of of kind

Time: 3772.319

of a big markets absolutely it's like

Time: 3774.42

pull the blinders off let people know

Time: 3776.66

that we're vulnerable to all the

Time: 3778.859

marketing and that there's there really

Time: 3780.839

are suppression of data behind a lot of

Time: 3783.119

it so it had it's happening with

Time: 3785.819

um with eating disorders too Eric Stice

Time: 3787.859

who's at Stanford with you has been

Time: 3789.9

using this method we call it dissonance

Time: 3792.72

showing people with eating disorders how

Time: 3796.44

the food industry has been manipulative

Time: 3798.359

and has tried to

Time: 3800.339

design foods for addiction for the

Time: 3803.28

highest bang for the buck with dopamine

Time: 3805.68

Etc and so that has helped reduce eating

Time: 3808.98

disorders in these studies and it has

Time: 3811.319

even helped reduce reward drive that

Time: 3813.96

isn't that amazing that the dissonance

Time: 3816.119

could do that so interesting yeah I

Time: 3818.88

think uh what it's telling us is that um

Time: 3821.04

few things are as strong as the

Time: 3824.22

um no I won't I refuse to response in

Time: 3826.859

terms of changing behavior

Time: 3828.839

um especially when there's something to

Time: 3830.099

push against so it's not just a battle

Time: 3831.9

with ourselves I want the soda but I'm

Time: 3833.64

not going to drink it it becomes a well

Time: 3836.16

I want it but I want it because you are

Time: 3837.9

making me think I want it I don't

Time: 3839.339

actually want that so um I don't know

Time: 3841.74

maybe this is getting me back into my

Time: 3843.42

teenage mindset but I think a sense of

Time: 3845.22

rebellion provided it's in the direction

Time: 3846.839

of Health one's own health and the

Time: 3849.119

health of others of course

Time: 3850.619

um can be a positive thing yeah so we do

Time: 3852.78

that with the mindful eating we really

Time: 3854.099

we have them bring in the junkiest

Time: 3855.66

processed food they can think of like a

Time: 3857.22

Twinkie and eat that really slowly and

Time: 3861

mindfully and few people finish it and

Time: 3863.28

they're like that actually wasn't nearly

Time: 3864.9

as good as the picture of it and the

Time: 3866.819

idea of it and so it's like that reward

Time: 3869.339

predictive error that you've talked

Time: 3871.859

about where they they think the brain is

Time: 3875.46

driving them to have it because of the

Time: 3876.9

ad advertising and their expectation

Time: 3879.059

that they'll feel good but if they're

Time: 3880.859

really paying attention it's that it's a

Time: 3883.74

very disappointing experience versus we

Time: 3886.14

also have people Savor a piece of good

Time: 3888.299

chocolate whichever they like milk or

Time: 3890.04

dark and that experience teaches them to

Time: 3893.22

eat slowly and really enjoy small

Time: 3896.16

amounts of rewarding food so that

Time: 3898.92

they're not they don't need to feel full

Time: 3900.839

and binge oh so interesting

Time: 3903.599

um

Time: 3904.2

darker milk chocolate dark yeah

Time: 3906.74

I actually like the 100 chocolate

Time: 3909.18

there's one brand of Venezuelan

Time: 3911.22

chocolate that's 100 which sound it

Time: 3913.26

might sound awful but it's actually

Time: 3914.52

quite good I think that was the first

Time: 3916.98

time I could actually taste the the real

Time: 3919.319

elements of chocolate interesting yeah

Time: 3921.119

that is not rewarding it's way too

Time: 3922.68

bitter for me I need the mouth feel you

Time: 3924.42

know give me some fat in it oh my well

Time: 3927.059

yeah it's hard to find but um it's out

Time: 3928.98

there I'd like to just take a brief

Time: 3930.9

moment and thank one of our podcast

Time: 3932.579

sponsors which is inside tracker inside

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Time: 3938.4

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Time: 3940.319

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Time: 3941.94

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Time: 3943.799

believer in getting regular blood work

Time: 3945.119

done for the simple reason that blood

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work however is that most of the time it

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does not come back with any information

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lipids Etc into the ranges that you want

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Time: 4007.819

while we're talking about stress eating

Time: 4010.66

obesity and

Time: 4013.16

um here we've also broadened the

Time: 4014.72

discussion to include different

Time: 4015.799

Generations we're talking about teens

Time: 4017.24

and adults I'd love for you to share

Time: 4019.22

with us your findings around this study

Time: 4021.859

that you did of pregnant women

Time: 4023.9

and how stress and pregnancy and

Time: 4028.28

different patterns of eating

Time: 4030.02

and physiological changes that people

Time: 4032.24

experience during pregnancy could you

Time: 4034.76

share with us what those findings were

Time: 4036.02

because I think those are relevant not

Time: 4037.28

just to people who are pregnant or

Time: 4038.72

planning to become pregnant but to

Time: 4040.52

everybody because I think they shed

Time: 4041.66

light on how we manage stress and

Time: 4044.18

sometimes how we fail to manage yeah so

Time: 4047.42

with overweight and obesity we know we

Time: 4050

can't just change calories it's just not

Time: 4052.819

going to work the next stressful event

Time: 4054.079

is going to come along and people will

Time: 4056.72

you know go back to what their brain is

Time: 4058.64

driving them to do is to you know binge

Time: 4060.619

on comfort food and so we've done these

Time: 4063.02

interventions with men and women that

Time: 4066.319

show that we can help them regulate

Time: 4068.119

using somebody's mindful eating

Time: 4070.339

strategies or checking in

Time: 4072.68

we wanted to do this with pregnant women

Time: 4074.9

because when you have excess weight and

Time: 4077.539

you're pregnant you're really vulnerable

Time: 4079.28

to gaining excessive weight during

Time: 4081.5

pregnancy which is not healthy for the

Time: 4082.88

mom or the The Offspring so we we did

Time: 4087.14

this study it took us probably 10 years

Time: 4089.599

total to you know get the Grant and

Time: 4092.72

recruit groups of 10 women who are

Time: 4096.62

pregnant in the same stage and give them

Time: 4099.319

this training and mindful eating mindful

Time: 4101.719

nutrition stress reduction and then my

Time: 4105.02

colleague Nikki bush has been following

Time: 4107.54

the babies for I think it's been almost

Time: 4110.6

10 years since then and here's what we

Time: 4113.54

found

Time: 4114.5

first of all we couldn't stop excess

Time: 4117.14

weight gain the women in the control

Time: 4119.779

group gained about about 60 of them

Time: 4122.299

gained excess weight during pregnancy

Time: 4123.44

and same with our mindful group so maybe

Time: 4126.08

it's end of story you'd stop there and

Time: 4127.52

say it fails don't do it there have been

Time: 4129.98

so many beautiful developments in the

Time: 4132.92

women who got the training that we just

Time: 4135.859

keep are you know being shocked by how

Time: 4138.62

impactful the stress reduction training

Time: 4141.02

was it was just two months of their life

Time: 4142.52

but but pregnancy is a very critical

Time: 4145.64

period when these women were changing

Time: 4149.12

their habits and they're very motivated

Time: 4150.679

to help their baby so here's what we

Time: 4152.48

found

Time: 4153.5

within that first month of the

Time: 4155.42

intervention they all got this oral

Time: 4156.859

glucose tolerance test so they all had a

Time: 4158.42

they got a blood test to see how well

Time: 4160.699

their body was metabolizing food sugar

Time: 4163.88

and so it's like a pre-diabetes test and

Time: 4167.42

what we found was that twice as many

Time: 4169.4

women in the no treatment control group

Time: 4171.739

had impaired glucose tolerance during

Time: 4173.9

pregnancy it's a it's a common high risk

Time: 4176.799

and half that many women had this in the

Time: 4181.64

mindfulness group so by reducing stress

Time: 4184.1

they improved their insulin sensitivity

Time: 4186.56

during pregnancy so imagine what that's

Time: 4188.96

doing to the baby too then the babies

Time: 4192.92

have come out with less obesity

Time: 4195.219

less illnesses in their first year of

Time: 4198.14

life and more of this kind of healthy

Time: 4201.08

stress response when they've been

Time: 4202.64

stressed out in in the lab study

Time: 4205.64

and so then eight years later we looked

Time: 4209

at the mental health of the mom so right

Time: 4210.86

after the intervention eight weeks later

Time: 4212.179

everyone in our mindfulness stressor I

Time: 4214.52

can do it felt great they felt less

Time: 4216.08

depressed they had less stress and less

Time: 4218

anxiety that's what you'd expect right I

Time: 4219.8

mean they've just gone to a weekly class

Time: 4221.179

they got all the support but eight years

Time: 4223.699

later they still showed improved mental

Time: 4226.4

health every year that we measured them

Time: 4229.52

they still looked better so it's

Time: 4231.62

probably one of the longest

Time: 4233.719

studies looking at long-term effects of

Time: 4235.94

a mindfulness training and I don't think

Time: 4237.86

it was a coincidence that was during

Time: 4239.239

pregnancy I think this is a very

Time: 4240.98

important time to have these skills and

Time: 4243.679

being in a group adds that social

Time: 4245.96

support piece that we know is powerful

Time: 4248.239

it's an incredible result could you

Time: 4250.219

share with us what the mindfulness

Time: 4251.48

intervention was and when it was

Time: 4253.94

initiated when it was stopped so we're

Time: 4255.739

talking about 10 minutes a day of

Time: 4256.88

meditation as many details as you can

Time: 4259.34

possibly give us because I know

Time: 4261.199

um even though I don't think I'll ever

Time: 4262.94

be pregnant I don't plan on it and uh

Time: 4265.219

you never know well um yeah hi

Time: 4269.86

zero minus one probability in my mind

Time: 4272.42

but anyway maybe other people have other

Time: 4274.1

ideas for me but

Time: 4275.84

um zero minus one probability in my mind

Time: 4277.76

and yet I'm very interested in this

Time: 4282.199

mindfulness intervention because it

Time: 4283.64

sounds like a very potent one so much so

Time: 4286.159

that it's multi having a

Time: 4287.42

multi-generational impact so how many

Time: 4290

minutes a day

Time: 4291.5

um how many days per week we had them

Time: 4294.44

they met once a week we they had little

Time: 4296.659

reminder cards I mean we need all the

Time: 4298.82

reminders we can you know Post-its on

Time: 4300.739

the fridge timers on our phone to do

Time: 4303.26

this mindful check-in and so they were

Time: 4306.44

during the week doing this check-in and

Time: 4308.9

it was simply

Time: 4311.12

um

Time: 4312.14

a mindful check in closing their eyes

Time: 4314.84

and feeling their body feeling their

Time: 4317.96

labeling their emotions so it was

Time: 4319.34

mindful breathing

Time: 4320.96

and then it was some movement and we

Time: 4324.14

taught them prenatal yoga but really any

Time: 4326.659

mind body movement people like different

Time: 4328.28

things there's Qigong

Time: 4330.679

um there's

Time: 4331.88

there's

Time: 4332.96

um even just slow walking would have

Time: 4334.94

worked

Time: 4335.84

um so it was uh mindful check-in breathe

Time: 4340.64

move my body that's what the reminder

Time: 4342.8

card said so close your eyes and look

Time: 4346.88

inside do slow breathing they also put

Time: 4350.06

their hands on their belly and so they

Time: 4351.5

felt that they were taking care of their

Time: 4353.78

baby and then more movement so they they

Time: 4357.8

did increase their walking

Time: 4360.92

and the mindful of check-ins are as we

Time: 4364.219

were talking about at the very beginning

Time: 4365.5

I would say necessary but not sufficient

Time: 4368.239

we've got to stop during the day and

Time: 4370.76

check in and look inside if we're not

Time: 4372.62

aware of where our mind is we are just

Time: 4375.38

subject to the you know believing the

Time: 4378.14

stressful thoughts thinking that we need

Time: 4379.699

to keep ruminating their sticky thoughts

Time: 4381.92

so the mindful check-in is really

Time: 4383.719

important and then I think the breathing

Time: 4385.94

as we've talked about is is probably the

Time: 4390.14

more direct way that they're influencing

Time: 4392.12

the prenatal environment the uterine

Time: 4394.4

environment to reduce the stress

Time: 4397.699

in that the baby's being exposed to and

Time: 4400.82

the movement refocuses us from our mind

Time: 4403.219

and our ruminative thoughts

Time: 4405.26

to the experiences to what we feel in

Time: 4408.5

the body there's even been a study that

Time: 4411.38

showed that overweight people with a lot

Time: 4413.48

of Cravings if they do the body scan

Time: 4416

that's simply focusing on the body from

Time: 4418.04

the head to the toe you know just

Time: 4419.9

reminding ourselves to

Time: 4422

focus on each part of the body breathe

Time: 4424.1

into it release tension it's very basic

Time: 4426.5

and simple the body scan would

Time: 4428.9

significantly reduced cravings

Time: 4432.739

I mean to me that's it's really hard to

Time: 4434.659

reduce Cravings so like just that

Time: 4436.58

refocusing on the body took away stress

Time: 4440.179

anxiety self-referential thoughts that

Time: 4442.58

kind of our favorite topic thinking

Time: 4444.5

about ourselves thinking negative

Time: 4445.88

thoughts about ourselves to relaxing

Time: 4448.219

feeling ease feeling well-being

Time: 4451.64

I can't help but ask about what that

Time: 4453.8

body skin might have been doing at a

Time: 4455.3

little bit more of a mechanistic level

Time: 4457.699

um some of the listeners might be

Time: 4459.5

familiar with these terms but some won't

Time: 4460.88

so I'll just um briefly Define them we

Time: 4464

can perceive things in terms of extra

Time: 4465.98

reception or basically paying attention

Time: 4468.26

to and focusing on things beyond the

Time: 4469.82

confines of our skin or interoception I

Time: 4472.04

realize you know all this but for their

Time: 4474.14

sake

Time: 4474.92

um no one really understands

Time: 4476

interoception go for it so in

Time: 4477.739

interception essentially the sensory the

Time: 4479.78

sensory innervation of the of the

Time: 4481.64

internal organs of our own skin that

Time: 4483.679

includes proprioception and which is our

Time: 4485.78

knowledge or our sense of where our

Time: 4487.159

limbs are where we are relative to

Time: 4488.659

gravity all that stuff and you know it

Time: 4491.239

raises this body scan result that that

Time: 4494.54

is the fact that a brief body scan can

Time: 4497.54

reduce Cravings raises this question in

Time: 4499.64

my mind which is is craving a heightened

Time: 4503.12

sense of inter-reception or heightened

Time: 4504.739

sense of extra reception so I could

Time: 4506.179

think of one form of craving where for

Time: 4508.1

instance the donut again donuts for me

Time: 4510.38

is in front of me and I'm saying

Time: 4511.64

thinking that I want that and so I'm

Time: 4514.4

almost in complete extra reception but

Time: 4516.38

I'm Tethered to it like my internal

Time: 4518.12

world is Tethered to the donut it's

Time: 4520.4

almost like the donut is in control of

Time: 4522.02

me briefly

Time: 4523.4

right and then I eat it

Time: 4525.32

um but it's hijacked your prefrontal

Time: 4527.9

cortex it's it's hijacked everything

Time: 4529.46

yeah yeah and then if I do a body scan

Time: 4532.28

so I'm putting myself in this experiment

Time: 4533.96

and it's kind of uh a hypothetical

Time: 4536.84

scenario I'm putting myself into this

Time: 4538.04

experiment I do a body scan which

Time: 4539.96

without question is

Time: 4542.48

shifting me more towards interception

Time: 4545

right I'm focusing on my skin my heart

Time: 4547.04

rate all these things interception so I

Time: 4549.38

could see how that would draw my

Time: 4550.4

attention off of the external stimulus

Time: 4552.44

and reduce craving and that makes me

Time: 4555.739

wonder whether or not craving is

Time: 4558.739

a

Time: 4560.179

form of extra reception where our

Time: 4562.4

interception is just exquisitely locked

Time: 4565.58

to extra reception and if so you know

Time: 4568.82

because I do think this is a remarkable

Time: 4570.08

result it is very hard to stop Cravings

Time: 4572

I mean we had a guest on here a former

Time: 4573.679

colleague of mine at Stanford who's now

Time: 4575.6

the chair of neurosurgery at UPenn uh

Time: 4578.3

School Medicine which is Casey Halpern I

Time: 4581

mean they do they literally drill down

Time: 4582.98

through the skull of people who have

Time: 4584.48

binge eating disorder and start

Time: 4586.04

stimulating different brain areas

Time: 4587.659

because these people are so out of

Time: 4589.159

control in terms of their binge eating I

Time: 4590.54

mean that's the kind of intervention

Time: 4591.62

that is considered necessary for a lot

Time: 4594.199

of folks who binge eat so here you're

Time: 4596.3

telling me a body scan in some

Time: 4598.46

individuals can reduce that and I have

Time: 4599.96

to wonder whether or not it's somehow

Time: 4602.3

breaking that interoceptive

Time: 4603.679

extracceptive tether anyway I'm

Time: 4606.38

speculating here but I'd love your

Time: 4607.82

thoughts on on binge on craving and

Time: 4610.159

binging and breaking binging

Time: 4612.26

um do you think that there are

Time: 4614.02

behavioral interventions

Time: 4616.4

um that could be layered on top of body

Time: 4618.26

scan should we all be doing body scans

Time: 4620.179

routinely yes why not you know and some

Time: 4623.239

people aren't going to like that lying

Time: 4624.62

down is maybe not comfortable and so any

Time: 4628.46

Mind Body activity is going to do the

Time: 4630.26

same it's going to be you know I think

Time: 4632.179

breaking that link

Time: 4633.739

that you talked about yeah I I find this

Time: 4636.62

all intersective extra receptive

Time: 4638.179

balancing um one of the more interesting

Time: 4640.28

conversations these days in Neuroscience

Time: 4642.26

because we're starting finally starting

Time: 4644

to understand what some of the the

Time: 4645.26

circuitries are and they do link to

Time: 4647.06

these reward Pathways in any event

Time: 4649.46

um getting back to the relationship

Time: 4650.96

doing stress and food and maybe even

Time: 4652.88

just weaving back a little bit to the uh

Time: 4655.04

opioid system

Time: 4657.44

have there been any

Time: 4659.12

long-term studies of stress intervention

Time: 4661.76

you know in the studies that we do in

Time: 4662.96

our laboratory we get people for a month

Time: 4664.88

they do one intervention we swap them to

Time: 4666.62

another intervention a month we analyze

Time: 4668.6

data takes a couple years to do all that

Time: 4670.64

but we write papers and we move on

Time: 4673.46

um it sounds like your laboratory has

Time: 4675.44

been involved in doing a lot of studies

Time: 4676.76

where you're examining people over a

Time: 4678.56

very long period of time even their

Time: 4679.82

children what can we learn about the

Time: 4683.06

long-term outcomes of things like body

Time: 4684.92

scans meditation and then we'll get into

Time: 4686.96

breath work

Time: 4688.12

there hasn't been that many long-term

Time: 4691.52

studies of

Time: 4693.02

stress interventions now that you

Time: 4695.36

mention it I think the meditation

Time: 4696.8

studies are probably the best example

Time: 4698.86

there are some studies that have either

Time: 4701.6

followed people who have taken up

Time: 4704.719

meditation or just these cross-sectional

Time: 4706.82

studies where you compare a long-term

Time: 4708.5

meditator to someone who's never

Time: 4710.48

meditated and they they are interesting

Time: 4713.84

I mean let's talk about the

Time: 4715.159

cross-sectional studies you're already

Time: 4717.56

you know studying someone who eats like

Time: 4719.6

kale chips instead of potato chips

Time: 4720.98

there's a lot of differences in who

Time: 4722.84

decides to be a meditator

Time: 4724.64

we in terms of the

Time: 4727.52

health and biology

Time: 4729.56

we have found that there is slower

Time: 4732.739

biological aging and other people have

Time: 4734.48

found that in these meditation

Time: 4736.76

interventions we do the short-term ones

Time: 4738.88

that inflammatory Pathways of gene

Time: 4742.82

expression are dampened way down

Time: 4745.28

and cross-sectionally other people like

Time: 4747.86

Elizabeth hoji have found longer

Time: 4749.54

telomeres in the meditators versus the

Time: 4752.06

controls so we we haven't really found

Time: 4754.82

telomere lengthening in our short-term

Time: 4757.699

meditation studies but we do find boosts

Time: 4760.52

in telomerase activity which is this

Time: 4763.159

enzyme that protects our cell aging

Time: 4765.44

slows our cell aging rebuilds the

Time: 4767.42

telomeres

Time: 4768.62

so those are um those are those are

Time: 4772.4

studies that suggest if someone were to

Time: 4774.56

continue meditating they might keep up

Time: 4776.84

that slower rate of Aging

Time: 4779.42

so there's one study we did which I

Time: 4781.58

think was particularly

Time: 4783.679

um fun we went to uh Retreat Center

Time: 4786.86

where Deepak Chopra leads us one week

Time: 4788.86

Transcendental Meditation Retreat so

Time: 4791.06

people got a mantra and they were

Time: 4792.88

focusing for probably eight hours a day

Time: 4795.92

on different uh yoga meditation and

Time: 4799.34

reflective exercises and then we had

Time: 4802.64

half the group just walk around the

Time: 4805.46

resort take walks hear some boring

Time: 4808.58

Health talks so that was our control

Time: 4810.26

group and what we found from that study

Time: 4813.199

was that in the short run a week later

Time: 4816.26

everyone felt fantastic after the week

Time: 4819.739

right they weren't allowed to bring

Time: 4820.88

their laptop and work and they ate this

Time: 4824.12

great anti-inflammatory diet an

Time: 4826.1

ayurvedic diet and then the gene

Time: 4828.08

expression Pathways were like night and

Time: 4830

day from day one to the last day and our

Time: 4833.3

model of um machine learning model was

Time: 4836.659

able to identify people over 90 it could

Time: 4839.12

say whether they're on day one or day

Time: 4840.679

seven and the difference really emerged

Time: 4843.5

over the long run we went and we

Time: 4845.12

followed them about 10 months later and

Time: 4848.12

we found that not everyone felt great 10

Time: 4851.6

months later the group who learned

Time: 4854.06

meditation still had lower depression

Time: 4856.28

but the control group bounced right back

Time: 4858.08

up

Time: 4858.98

and then we looked a little bit further

Time: 4860.42

and we saw that people with early

Time: 4861.8

adversity benefited the most from the

Time: 4864.199

meditation condition oh what was the

Time: 4867.62

meditation condition how long per day

Time: 4870.38

yeah it well so they did they learned

Time: 4873.32

transcendental primordial sound

Time: 4875.54

meditation which is similar to TM where

Time: 4877.52

you have a your focused attention on

Time: 4880.34

your on a word over and over but there's

Time: 4882.8

also more awareness of the

Time: 4885.8

um the body

Time: 4887.36

and that was you know I I couldn't say

Time: 4890.719

how many minutes a day but it was on and

Time: 4893.239

off during the day okay so repeatedly

Time: 4895.52

but for a fairly short period of time

Time: 4897.8

one week yeah all right yeah I've never

Time: 4900.26

done one of these extended meditation

Time: 4901.699

Retreats are you interested well various

Time: 4903.98

people in my life have told me that I

Time: 4905.239

needed to go do a silent meditation but

Time: 4907.1

they probably were emphasizing the

Time: 4908.3

silent part the um uh I recommend them I

Time: 4912.679

think they're amazing ways to get to

Time: 4914.659

know the mind and to really calm the

Time: 4917.42

body in ways like a you know a Quantum

Time: 4921.02

shift in our level of stress that we

Time: 4923.12

don't get it's very hard to get in short

Time: 4924.8

bounce

Time: 4925.94

I do a daily meditation practice but

Time: 4928.34

it's a relatively brief meditation

Time: 4929.719

practice I do tend to focus more on

Time: 4931.34

things like deliberate cold exposure and

Time: 4933.38

breath work and yes exercise and

Time: 4935.42

sunlight and all the things I talk about

Time: 4937.04

on the podcast but I'm certainly not

Time: 4938.84

averse to uh doing a longer meditation

Time: 4941.6

are all of these

Time: 4943.4

um uh TMA meditations are they silent

Time: 4946.159

meditations

Time: 4948.199

and they range from what two days to a

Time: 4950.42

week is that

Time: 4951.56

well the Retreats you can always find a

Time: 4954.02

retreat that's you know half a day one

Time: 4955.94

day a week two weeks so you don't go

Time: 4958.34

right into a two-week you work up to it

Time: 4960.02

so the longest I've ever done is a

Time: 4961.46

two-week silent Meditation Retreat and

Time: 4965

that was after you know 10 years of

Time: 4966.8

doing yearly shorter retreats and then

Time: 4969.92

when you you know I think it would be

Time: 4972.199

too hard and stressful if you haven't

Time: 4974.96

been able to I mean meditation can be

Time: 4977.12

stressful if you know you think that

Time: 4978.56

you're failing at it and

Time: 4980.42

um so you need to have kind of developed

Time: 4982.64

the skill a little bit before you go on

Time: 4984.739

the Retreats and so lots of classes can

Time: 4986.96

do that and online but I think the short

Time: 4988.699

bouts every day are that is what is the

Time: 4991.82

most important message for people for

Time: 4993.26

for managing daily stress and that's the

Time: 4995.42

in the stress prescription it's very

Time: 4997.46

much about how we can do short daily

Time: 5000.94

nudges to reduce our stress arousal so

Time: 5004

breathing is one of the best body-based

Time: 5006.82

examples of getting right there but

Time: 5008.56

there are other ways so being in nature

Time: 5010.12

that's a really strong stimulus an

Time: 5013.36

environment that sends all sorts of

Time: 5015.28

safety signals to us

Time: 5017.14

yeah certainly it's not an either or but

Time: 5019.42

it seems like nowadays A lot of the

Time: 5021.219

discussion that used to be had around

Time: 5022.78

meditation and its ability to evoke

Time: 5024.76

neuroplasticity and things of that sort

Time: 5026.56

has shifted over to it um an increased

Time: 5030.1

focus on psychedelics so the common

Time: 5032.199

theme on this podcast but it just seems

Time: 5034

like in you know taking the pulse of

Time: 5036.159

social media and the landscape out there

Time: 5037.719

there's so much excitement about

Time: 5039

psilocybin both in microdose and macro

Time: 5041.679

dose and MDMA and some of the other

Time: 5043.36

trials that are out there

Time: 5045.58

that

Time: 5047.32

many people are starting to forget the

Time: 5049.42

incredibly rich and vast literature

Time: 5051.58

supporting the use of even brief

Time: 5053.14

meditation practices for reshaping the

Time: 5055.179

mind so I'm glad that um we're talking

Time: 5057.04

about meditation but I mean even going

Time: 5058.84

into plants medicine experiences is

Time: 5062.92

enhanced if you have a little bit of

Time: 5064.659

training in how to in metacognition how

Time: 5067.6

to view the mind and thoughts you can

Time: 5069.64

observe the whole experience with that

Time: 5071.739

much more kind of calmness skill and

Time: 5074.62

wisdom knowing this is just the mind

Time: 5076.36

doing these cool things so it's not

Time: 5078.88

they're not separate and then I think

Time: 5080.98

the the psilocybin experiences enhance

Time: 5083.44

daily meditation so they really go well

Time: 5086.26

together

Time: 5087.46

yeah and then just as a little editorial

Time: 5090.159

on uh psychedelics

Time: 5092.679

um what's interesting I think about the

Time: 5094.239

clinical data is that

Time: 5096.4

um you know we think of the the

Time: 5097.659

Psychedelic Journey as the time in which

Time: 5099.28

all the changes occur because it has all

Time: 5101.56

these properties of hallucinations and

Time: 5103.3

altered thinking Etc that acts as kind

Time: 5105.64

of a gravitational pull around our our

Time: 5108.1

ideas about what psychedelics do but

Time: 5110.32

it's actually in the window after the

Time: 5111.94

Psychedelic Journey that the actual

Time: 5113.62

rewiring of the rain takes place so when

Time: 5115.12

people talk about integration afterwards

Time: 5117.34

they're not just talking about the few

Time: 5118.9

hours where they're you know parachuting

Time: 5120.82

back down to to uh uh typical

Time: 5123.82

Consciousness let's call it that but

Time: 5126.1

that there's these long perhaps even

Time: 5127.6

weeks or month-long tale of plasticity

Time: 5130.48

and that's actually when most of the

Time: 5131.679

rewiring is happening and which I find

Time: 5133.659

really interesting which is not unlike

Time: 5135.699

meditation where sure in one bout of

Time: 5137.86

meditation you might see a adjustment or

Time: 5139.84

rewiring of the brain but at least from

Time: 5141.4

the book altered traits which I'm a big

Time: 5143.8

fan of

Time: 5144.76

um talked about these daily repeated

Time: 5146.44

short meditations or these longer TM

Time: 5149.32

Retreats as they're sometimes called

Time: 5151.179

almond inducing uh this big time brain

Time: 5154.179

plasticity all right well I'm now I'm

Time: 5155.739

gonna have to do it and I'll report back

Time: 5157.84

to everybody uh what my experience was

Time: 5159.4

although I might do it silently

Time: 5161.32

um

Time: 5162.159

I'd love to talk a little bit about some

Time: 5164.199

of the other health metrics that you've

Time: 5165.94

explored not just in the context of

Time: 5167.679

mindfulness but I'm particularly

Time: 5170.139

intrigued by uh a graph here I'm showing

Time: 5173.199

my really nerdy side there's a graph in

Time: 5175.179

one of your papers it's the Picard paper

Time: 5177.04

2018 we will provide a link to to this

Time: 5179.86

in the show note captions if people want

Time: 5181.179

to take a look but it essentially

Time: 5182.739

describes the relationship between

Time: 5184.179

mitochondrial health and mood

Time: 5188.08

um in the context of people who have

Time: 5190.36

different type of mood Tendencies if you

Time: 5192.88

um if you would be willing to just kind

Time: 5194.679

of describe the top Contour of that

Time: 5196.6

study and some of the the points that

Time: 5198.159

that you find most interesting I think

Time: 5200.139

it's a fascinating study and and I I'm

Time: 5202.06

so glad you did it but I'll let you tell

Time: 5203.8

us about it yeah we've we've done these

Time: 5206.139

in-depth studies where we are looking at

Time: 5208.3

people under a lot of daily demand

Time: 5210.639

caregivers and then we look and look at

Time: 5212.739

you know normal people parents of

Time: 5214.6

neurotypical children who still have a

Time: 5216.82

lot of stress but we that we then ask

Time: 5218.86

you know does do people under chronic

Time: 5221.679

stress have accelerated aging so we look

Time: 5223.84

at telomeres epigenetics mitochondrial

Time: 5225.88

health and then what explains those who

Time: 5229.12

looked really good who look resilient

Time: 5231.34

and don't look vulnerable and so then we

Time: 5233.5

can find out like what's the magic sauce

Time: 5235.12

in the day that protects them from

Time: 5236.8

chronic stress so Martin bakar my

Time: 5239.679

colleague who has been obsessed with

Time: 5242.219

mitochondrial Health as a pathway to

Time: 5245.32

understanding both stress address and

Time: 5248.02

really health and disease he has

Time: 5250.239

developed a way to measure mitochondrial

Time: 5252.52

in health in humans so we can measure a

Time: 5255.159

bunch of enzymes and then we can adjust

Time: 5256.719

it for how many mitochondria we have so

Time: 5258.76

we have this really nice index we can

Time: 5260.8

get from the blood

Time: 5262.42

and in this study of

Time: 5265.32

young mothers who were who had either

Time: 5268.78

typical children or children with autism

Time: 5271.26

we found that the caregiving moms had

Time: 5276.42

significantly lower or dampened

Time: 5279.54

mitochondrial activity what that means

Time: 5282.159

is they can't produce as much energy so

Time: 5286

if they're feeling more exhausted from

Time: 5288.699

the chronic stress we know why I mean

Time: 5291.04

it's it really is a it was quite

Time: 5293.08

dramatic and Martin commented some of

Time: 5295.3

those low levels even looked like people

Time: 5297.34

with some genetic reasons to have low

Time: 5299.62

mitochondrial activity but here's the

Time: 5302.02

beauty of that study we then get to look

Time: 5304

within their day at their mood and ask

Time: 5307.48

well what about the caregivers who have

Time: 5309.219

really great mitochondrial

Time: 5311.8

enzymes and and thus should be making a

Time: 5315.04

lot of ATP they had more positive

Time: 5317.679

emotions both waking up and in the

Time: 5320.56

evening but especially in the evening

Time: 5322.42

and what's so interesting that is all of

Time: 5324.76

these daily diary studies of stress and

Time: 5327.76

mood

Time: 5328.96

one of the things we know that matters

Time: 5331

for long-term health is how positive you

Time: 5334.719

feel at night so especially on a

Time: 5336.94

stressful day so at the end of a

Time: 5338.139

stressful day can you muster from some

Time: 5340.48

feelings of content ease confidence Joy

Time: 5344.62

do you have any of that or has it just

Time: 5346.6

wiped out your positivity and so for

Time: 5349.54

people who feel

Time: 5351.1

either lower negative or higher positive

Time: 5354.52

they tend to have better health

Time: 5357.04

trajectories so like a decade later less

Time: 5359.08

depression less heart disease less early

Time: 5361.48

death so what so that's why we care so

Time: 5364.06

much about daily moods and in our study

Time: 5366.28

it looks like the daily mood was really

Time: 5369.1

quite correlated with the mitochondria

Time: 5371.62

levels that same day then we measured

Time: 5373.659

mood like you know days away from that

Time: 5375.94

it was much less correlated so that it's

Time: 5378.639

just our first study on this but it

Time: 5380.02

really leads us to think that our

Time: 5381.88

mitochondria are sensitive to our

Time: 5385.239

thoughts and our feelings probably on a

Time: 5387.88

daily basis

Time: 5389.26

incredible so for those of us that find

Time: 5392.5

ourselves in it in a state of chronic

Time: 5395.139

stress and here I'm talking about the

Time: 5397.42

kind of stress that you mentioned before

Time: 5398.739

which is you know they're

Time: 5401.739

is unlikely to be a Simple Solution like

Time: 5404.62

we're just going to be grappling with

Time: 5406.3

this thing

Time: 5407.739

um and you mentioned the words radical

Time: 5409.239

acceptance which I'd like to uh drill

Time: 5411.58

into a little bit too because there's a

Time: 5413.02

theme in the self-help literature and

Time: 5414.94

it's a

Time: 5415.84

theme that now I think in the formal

Time: 5418.239

psychology literature actually

Time: 5420.52

um was talking to a dialectical

Time: 5422.94

dialectical psychology expert recently I

Time: 5426.28

think that's the the correct title

Time: 5427.9

dialectical behavioral therapy correct

Time: 5430.659

yeah that's a common great one yeah

Time: 5433.36

you're correct I I was I was grasping

Time: 5435.94

and um that's correct and they were I'm

Time: 5438.34

talking about

Time: 5439.239

um some of the misconceptions about

Time: 5440.94

radical acceptance because I think a lot

Time: 5443.8

of people hear the words radical

Time: 5444.94

acceptance at least this is what they

Time: 5446.32

they told me and think oh that means

Time: 5448.06

that you have to just accept what is and

Time: 5449.98

deal with it there's another form of

Time: 5451.719

radical acceptance which is ironically

Time: 5453.76

accept the fact that I'm not going to

Time: 5454.9

deal with this right I'm gonna walk away

Time: 5456.699

from it but what you're talking about is

Time: 5458.739

chronic stress of the sort that really

Time: 5461.56

the stress or the fact that a very close

Time: 5465.94

relative or family member is dealing

Time: 5468.88

with a lifelong condition or the fact

Time: 5472.3

that um we can't extract ourselves from

Time: 5475.12

a situation that we are not in full

Time: 5477.4

agency to remove the stressor

Time: 5480.52

that

Time: 5482.139

radical acceptance of that fact then can

Time: 5485.08

ratchet into an understanding of okay

Time: 5488.08

and yet there are tools that we can use

Time: 5490.36

to not just offset the negative health

Time: 5492.1

effects but maybe even thrive in the

Time: 5494.139

context of this essentially turning what

Time: 5496.12

initially was thought of as a curse into

Time: 5497.86

a blessing at least biologically

Time: 5499.36

speaking

Time: 5501.46

what are the data around the practices

Time: 5505.06

that can help make that conversion

Time: 5508.719

possible I realize there's a lot of

Time: 5510.219

psychological work that needs to be done

Time: 5511.659

ongoing people need coping mechanisms

Time: 5514.3

support groups it's always better to

Time: 5516.639

have more social support than last of

Time: 5518.139

course but are we

Time: 5520.9

again talking about

Time: 5522.94

a daily mindfulness practice or is it

Time: 5526.12

daily mindfulness of a certain type what

Time: 5529.36

do we know about best practices for

Time: 5531.04

mitigating these essentially

Time: 5533.219

non-negotiable stressors

Time: 5536.5

it's

Time: 5537.76

it's a great question and it's not a

Time: 5540.94

quick answer

Time: 5542.139

I think it is partly how we view life

Time: 5545.5

and our

Time: 5546.76

our purpose in our own life

Time: 5549.46

what's this game that you know we were

Time: 5551.62

born into and even just the idea that

Time: 5554.62

bad things shouldn't happen sets us up

Time: 5556.659

for vulnerability to feel victimized to

Time: 5559.48

feel

Time: 5560.739

um like we can't you know accept bad

Time: 5563.44

things that have happened so so just

Time: 5566.44

stepping back and asking

Time: 5568.84

everyone listening do you have a

Time: 5571.659

situation in your life that is unwanted

Time: 5575.32

and you can't change

Time: 5578.98

it could be small it could be huge

Time: 5581.86

how much time do you spend thinking

Time: 5584.8

about this

Time: 5587.38

the more we spend time trying to problem

Time: 5590.199

solve or worry or just wishing things

Time: 5593.8

were different

Time: 5595.78

the more we are creating

Time: 5598.9

a chronic stress state

Time: 5602.56

and so just even

Time: 5604.9

taking that first kind of step back to

Time: 5607.78

get perspective on what are the

Time: 5609.76

situations in my life that stress me out

Time: 5611.44

and and which of these can I Circle

Time: 5614.08

those that I can't change

Time: 5616.36

they're still they're on my list so

Time: 5617.86

they're they're on my mind they're still

Time: 5619.48

upsetting they haven't receded in the

Time: 5622

background they haven't gone away just

Time: 5623.8

that recognition of this isn't going to

Time: 5625.78

go away is incredibly

Time: 5629.5

powerful because we can as I say put the

Time: 5634.48

baggage down and give ourselves some

Time: 5636.58

relief and some freedom from from the

Time: 5639.94

big space it holds in our mind and in

Time: 5641.98

our body

Time: 5643.06

and this is not a one-time thing it's a

Time: 5645.46

practice radical acceptance is something

Time: 5647.56

we practice over and over to help us

Time: 5650.139

loosen our grip on unwanted situations

Time: 5653.86

on letting them control our well-being

Time: 5657.04

and taking up you know this mental real

Time: 5659.739

estate that's so precious our attention

Time: 5663.28

so I would

Time: 5664.9

um

Time: 5666.04

there are statements that we can say

Time: 5667.6

that help us

Time: 5669.76

and it's I have you know there are a few

Time: 5673.179

metaphors so I'm an expert at this

Time: 5676

because I have I'm a caregiver and I

Time: 5680.139

often need to refocus from wishing

Time: 5684.04

things were different trying to solve

Time: 5685.48

things to

Time: 5687.1

really

Time: 5688.659

um radical acceptance of this is how

Time: 5690.94

things are right now this is the reality

Time: 5695.38

and

Time: 5696.699

by just reminding ourselves that there

Time: 5700.78

is freedom within that that there are

Time: 5702.639

things that you can do you can actually

Time: 5705.58

live better live well with these

Time: 5708.76

situations so let me tell you what we

Time: 5710.08

found from our caregivers we measure

Time: 5712.12

where their mind is at night we we ping

Time: 5715.06

them and we say in the last five minutes

Time: 5716.98

how much have you been wishing things

Time: 5718.719

were different

Time: 5720.159

how much have you been engaged and

Time: 5722.56

focused and what you're doing right

Time: 5724.42

right before we pinged you and just

Time: 5727.179

those two questions

Time: 5729.46

tell us so much about that person's

Time: 5732.4

well-being so people and actually yes

Time: 5736.36

the caregivers are doing more of

Time: 5739.48

what I'll call suffering wishing things

Time: 5741.699

were different not being present for

Time: 5743.62

their lives but regardless of that

Time: 5745.9

difference whether people are a

Time: 5747.699

caregiver or not this negative

Time: 5749.8

mind-watering state of not being present

Time: 5753.04

for your evening wishing things were

Time: 5755.679

different instead of being engaged

Time: 5757.42

predicts

Time: 5759.219

more unhappiness it predicts

Time: 5763.3

shorter telomeres

Time: 5765.34

so it suggests that it's a pattern that

Time: 5768.76

has gone on for days months and years

Time: 5771.4

that has been wearing on them

Time: 5775.54

and so some of the metaphors that I

Time: 5777.46

think are helpful for this are thinking

Time: 5780.34

of yourself think of this unwanted

Time: 5782.739

situation and think of how your

Time: 5785.44

your pulling a rope that's attached to a

Time: 5787.659

brick wall

Time: 5789.52

and you're doing that because you care

Time: 5793

you want things to be better for

Time: 5794.98

yourself or this person

Time: 5796.78

and

Time: 5798.76

or a group I mean it's it's something

Time: 5800.679

you're passionate about

Time: 5802.54

and so you're pulling and pulling and

Time: 5804.4

every day you're pulling and and you

Time: 5806.56

can't move that brick wall so the only

Time: 5808.12

thing that's happening is that you're

Time: 5809.86

chafing your hands that tinge that

Time: 5812.199

chronic tension

Time: 5814.84

what if you just drop the Rope

Time: 5818.739

I say that to myself drop the Rope

Time: 5822.159

when I start get you know getting going

Time: 5824.139

on trying to solve unsolvable problems

Time: 5826.36

the brick wall is still there it's never

Time: 5828.34

going to move yet my hands are free

Time: 5831.1

and so I can be freed up to live in the

Time: 5835.179

ways that I do have control over to do

Time: 5837.58

things that help around the edges so I

Time: 5840.76

was just talking with someone who's just

Time: 5842.8

so concerned about their aging parents

Time: 5844.659

and you know them not getting the care

Time: 5847.6

they need not taking care of themselves

Time: 5849.28

you know things aren't going well but

Time: 5851.44

there was so little that they could do

Time: 5853.6

to help their parents and so by dropping

Time: 5857.02

the Rope for them meant realizing there

Time: 5860.26

were things they could do being present

Time: 5862.12

being loving

Time: 5863.56

uh doing the little bit of care that

Time: 5866.8

they could from a distance was all they

Time: 5869.139

could do and that's enough that's that

Time: 5872.56

loving presence is like a gift that we

Time: 5874.96

don't realize that we we always have

Time: 5876.82

that to give

Time: 5878.26

where do you think the tenancy for us to

Time: 5881.44

try and pull on brick walls comes from I

Time: 5883.84

mean it's so non-adaptive

Time: 5886.96

um and I've also heard it stated that

Time: 5889.9

people do this in the reverse Direction

Time: 5892

too meaning in time trying to control

Time: 5894.88

the past

Time: 5896.199

through current behaviors as well as try

Time: 5898.78

and control the future

Time: 5901

um so give me an example of that yeah

Time: 5903.4

this is something I learned from a guest

Time: 5904.719

we had on here Dr Paul Conti is a

Time: 5907.3

psychiatrist to

Time: 5908.679

um extremely skilled psychiatrist who

Time: 5910.3

wrote a book on trauma which I think is

Time: 5912.1

the best book on trauma frankly

Time: 5914.86

um and he talked about how the limbic

Time: 5916.48

system that engages these

Time: 5918.88

fight-or-flight responses has no sense

Time: 5921.52

of time and that's why developmental

Time: 5923.38

scripts get reactivated in particular

Time: 5926.32

parent child or caretaker child uh

Time: 5930.159

neural circuits that were engaged in

Time: 5932.679

those relationships when we were really

Time: 5934.3

young get reactivated in adult

Time: 5936.04

relationships I mean in some sense it

Time: 5938.32

doesn't make any sense like why wouldn't

Time: 5940.179

the human mind have separate circuits

Time: 5941.62

for adult like romantic attachment

Time: 5943.3

versus child parent attachment is all

Time: 5944.98

sounding very Freudian And yet when you

Time: 5946.54

look at the the neural Imaging it's like

Time: 5949.179

you get one set of circuits for

Time: 5950.86

understanding of relationship of course

Time: 5952.6

you adjust according to context and they

Time: 5954.219

get repurposed you don't just set that

Time: 5956.139

aside say that was for childhood but

Time: 5958

what he said was that the limbic system

Time: 5960.28

and the stress system when it's

Time: 5963.58

activated

Time: 5964.719

um distorts our perception of time

Time: 5967.3

and that

Time: 5968.98

um this is what he was uh saying leads

Time: 5971.8

to the what's sometimes called the

Time: 5973

repetition compulsion people try and

Time: 5974.679

will repeat the same uh Place themselves

Time: 5977.44

into mildly to severely traumatic

Time: 5980.32

circumstances over and over again

Time: 5982.44

despite the presence of a of a trauma it

Time: 5985.12

doesn't have to be childhood trauma you

Time: 5986.44

think well that doesn't make any sense

Time: 5987.52

it's like the most illogical thing in

Time: 5988.84

the world like you get burned on the

Time: 5990.04

stove or you keep going back to the

Time: 5991.3

stove and the idea is that these

Time: 5993.82

circuits when they get activated really

Time: 5995.5

engage entire like cognitive scripts

Time: 5998.62

that make it very hard to escape it's

Time: 6000.42

like it pulls you into a story that is

Time: 6002.6

exquisitely hard to to get away from it

Time: 6005.82

so that this repetition compulsion is an

Time: 6007.98

attempt to try and rewrite the story and

Time: 6010.199

this is this is a theory not just a

Time: 6012.06

Freudian psychology but kind of modern

Time: 6013.56

trauma and Neuroscience informed trauma

Time: 6015.78

therapies in any event

Time: 6018.42

as you describe the this pulling on a

Time: 6021.12

brick wall I find a very compelling

Time: 6022.86

image

Time: 6024.239

um and one that uh makes total sense to

Time: 6027.84

try and drop the Rope as you describe it

Time: 6030.48

because of the incredibly High energetic

Time: 6032.94

demand that pulling on that Rogue

Time: 6034.38

represents as you said it's sort of a

Time: 6036.42

way of diverting resources towards

Time: 6039.719

something that has no conclusion right

Time: 6042.96

and in dropping the Rope you can divert

Time: 6044.94

those resources towards other things

Time: 6047.82

um so I was just curious again I wasn't

Time: 6049.38

consulted with the design phase and I'm

Time: 6051

assuming you weren't either but you know

Time: 6052.32

what I wonder what what in US uh a

Time: 6055.62

scientists I'm just kind of doing the

Time: 6057

Duncan experiment here like I wonder

Time: 6058.62

what in US as human beings compels us to

Time: 6062.28

um try and change what we the

Time: 6063.84

unchangeable

Time: 6067.44

we

Time: 6069.12

really really really love control

Time: 6072.6

and we want to control the future

Time: 6075.719

not just because it makes us feel

Time: 6077.46

powerful and happy but because then we

Time: 6080.76

can relax

Time: 6082.56

if we know what's going to happen next

Time: 6084.48

if it's predictable

Time: 6086.58

we're that much happier we're not

Time: 6089.58

Vigilant and looking ahead and being

Time: 6091.86

prepared for what might happen so let me

Time: 6094.8

ask you that so I have two whole

Time: 6096.6

chapters in the stress prescription one

Time: 6099

is on uncertainty and one is on control

Time: 6101.48

and these drive us crazy until we can

Time: 6105.78

somewhat master and understand how

Time: 6108.3

little control we have and how much

Time: 6111.06

uncertainty there is and will always be

Time: 6113.28

so let me ask you this if you couldn't

Time: 6115.5

plan your day tomorrow

Time: 6118.26

and you wanted to

Time: 6120.42

knows with certainty what your plans are

Time: 6123.119

what was going to happen

Time: 6125.04

how

Time: 6126.239

much ease and relaxation

Time: 6128.82

would you feel at the not knowing what's

Time: 6131.639

going to happen tomorrow very little

Time: 6133.92

so like on a one through ten scale how

Time: 6136.08

much would that drive you crazy

Time: 6137.88

tomorrow Saturday so I'm a little more

Time: 6141

flexible on Monday

Time: 6143.28

oh no Mondays I Mondays are mine I own

Time: 6146.52

Monday no I'm kidding I'm just kidding I

Time: 6148.38

love Mondays it's always been my

Time: 6149.699

favorite day of the week

Time: 6151.38

um

Time: 6152.119

uh even when I was in school uh

Time: 6156

yeah that would be on it that would be a

Time: 6157.679

six yeah six out of ten and that's not

Time: 6160.76

unusual and we have a scale to measure

Time: 6163.92

how comfortable people are with

Time: 6165.84

certainty and what we already knew was

Time: 6169.38

that

Time: 6170.4

being comfortable with uncertainty is a

Time: 6173.82

beautiful but rare resilience Factor

Time: 6175.86

people who tolerate uncertainty have

Time: 6178.86

much less anxiety and depression and

Time: 6181.02

when stressful things happen they get

Time: 6183

over it more quickly so we measure this

Time: 6184.739

during the pandemic and what we found

Time: 6187.5

was that intolerance of uncertainty

Time: 6190.739

pretty strongly predicted pandemic

Time: 6193.08

anxiety PTSD depression and

Time: 6196.26

distress about the fires the climate the

Time: 6199.08

climate situation in in California

Time: 6201.54

so this is interesting I mean is this

Time: 6204.3

like a fixed personality and we're just

Time: 6206.28

stuck with our rigidity around wanting

Time: 6209.34

certainty or is this something that we

Time: 6211.139

like a muscle that we can build

Time: 6213.84

so

Time: 6215.28

I think it's the latter and I think

Time: 6217.44

there are practices we can do that help

Time: 6220.38

us feel ease with the uncertain future

Time: 6224.159

some of these mindful check-ins

Time: 6226.639

noticing that we are carrying around

Time: 6228.78

uncertainty stress

Time: 6230.46

is one way and then reframing

Time: 6234

uncertainty

Time: 6235.679

as the beauty of the mystery of life and

Time: 6240.119

the freedom that we can feel when we

Time: 6243.78

realize we don't control tomorrow

Time: 6246.36

we just go with it and we you know we do

Time: 6249.36

our best and what

Time: 6251.82

Delight there is in just viewing things

Time: 6253.86

with curiosity and just seeing what

Time: 6256.08

emerges so even just our posture here's

Time: 6258.48

an exercise for dealing with uncertainty

Time: 6261.119

instead of like kind of that alert

Time: 6263.4

posture when we're like trying to take

Time: 6264.84

it all in and predict the next Second

Time: 6266.88

and like just

Time: 6268.92

lean back

Time: 6271.08

and take some slow breaths we know

Time: 6273.48

that's going to help Orient us

Time: 6275.58

and realize that we can actually face

Time: 6278.1

time in that way by letting it come to

Time: 6280.44

us

Time: 6281.46

and receiving what happens

Time: 6285.659

and that's a completely different body

Time: 6287.34

stance than our usual go mode during the

Time: 6290.52

day and that's just a way of saying

Time: 6293.82

I am in a you know receptive mode and

Time: 6297.119

I'm going to just be curious about what

Time: 6299.52

arises

Time: 6300.9

and so I actually learned that on a

Time: 6302.52

Meditation Retreat because I tend to be

Time: 6305.76

type A and I'll leave a retreat going

Time: 6307.619

from like very relaxed to like that

Time: 6310.44

leaning forward tense of like where's

Time: 6312.48

the to-do list and so carrying with me

Time: 6315

that posture of like just see let

Time: 6319.86

time unfold as it will without trying to

Time: 6323.4

control things

Time: 6325.32

it's really interesting it gets right to

Time: 6326.82

the heart of something that I spent a

Time: 6328.08

lot of time thinking about in the

Time: 6329.219

context of

Time: 6330.719

Stress Management and also just general

Time: 6334.08

thriving which is that I think that

Time: 6337.08

um

Time: 6338.159

about half of the messages that we get

Time: 6340.08

related to stress and mind-body

Time: 6342.48

interventions relate to adopting this

Time: 6345.119

forward Center of mass

Time: 6348.26

this idea of okay stress can

Time: 6352.739

give us early dementia stress can limit

Time: 6354.48

our sleep stress can Empower cognition

Time: 6356.4

or

Time: 6357.6

stress can make us more resilient stress

Time: 6359.94

can activate all sorts of positive

Time: 6361.639

anti-inflammatory Pathways as well that

Time: 6363.659

the mindset matters and here I'm

Time: 6365.76

I'm doing a terrible job of it but I'm

Time: 6367.739

trying to scrape off and capture the top

Time: 6370.34

uh Contour of the beautiful work of my

Time: 6373.199

colleague Dr Alia Crum who's yes you

Time: 6376.44

know love her work feeling this podcast

Time: 6377.76

and is a huge fan of her work as well

Time: 6380.159

and with that mindset matters because it

Time: 6382.92

shapes physiology

Time: 6384.36

for sure it uh her data point to that so

Time: 6387.84

there are these kind of forward Center

Time: 6389.28

of mass type uh approaches

Time: 6392.1

um and these are abundant on social

Time: 6393.6

media

Time: 6394.92

um you know different people come to

Time: 6397.26

mind

Time: 6397.94

different archetypes really have emerged

Time: 6400.8

you know millions and millions of

Time: 6402.3

followers that are the archetypes of

Time: 6404.46

when challenge arises you smash into it

Time: 6407.4

you go through it right

Time: 6409.38

um

Time: 6409.98

and then on the other hand there are the

Time: 6412.619

stress mitigation techniques both mental

Time: 6414.9

and physical body oriented mind oriented

Time: 6417.54

Etc that are more of the sort that you

Time: 6419.58

described that are

Time: 6420.96

um they're not

Time: 6422.34

um being back on your heels so to speak

Time: 6424.32

like letting things bulldoze you but are

Time: 6427.26

more of this receptive mode and of more

Time: 6430.02

of an awareness mode exactly and I think

Time: 6432.659

that um since here we are at the table

Time: 6435.48

to researchers who focus on these issues

Time: 6438.6

a lot do you think it's fair for us to

Time: 6442.1

adopt a sort of a general framework and

Time: 6444.6

model that that perhaps people can adopt

Time: 6446.4

for themselves if they like that that of

Time: 6448.8

course it's not an either or but that

Time: 6450.42

having both of these in one's kit

Time: 6452.76

of tools could be valuable because one

Time: 6457.32

is less energetically demanding but of

Time: 6459.42

course offers less opportunity for

Time: 6461.219

agency or at least apparently so that's

Time: 6464.04

the leaning back and then the the other

Time: 6465.54

is certainly gives an opportunity for

Time: 6467.88

agency but we know from 100 years or

Time: 6471.48

more of psychology and psychiatric

Time: 6473.219

literature and from the emerging

Time: 6475.199

literature on stress mitigation that

Time: 6478.44

it's work it's not something that is

Time: 6481.619

without a cost it can get you far better

Time: 6484.619

results than it were you to just let

Time: 6486.239

stress bulldoze you but that it's work

Time: 6489.239

and so we have to emphasize that work

Time: 6492

um in very deliberate ways exactly I

Time: 6495.179

couldn't agree more it's work

Time: 6498.119

when we know it's productive we should

Time: 6499.86

work and when we know there's a brick

Time: 6501.78

wall we should let go so I think I like

Time: 6504.78

this forward Mass idea I think of it as

Time: 6506.88

you muscle it

Time: 6508.92

and or you release it and we need both

Time: 6511.82

and so that letting go is a really

Time: 6514.92

important wise you know Discerning way

Time: 6518.219

to mitigate stress in the right

Time: 6520.92

situations in the right time and you

Time: 6523.26

know we can't muscle through everything

Time: 6524.52

right so another way I like to think

Time: 6526.26

about it is just the waves of life like

Time: 6529.08

I mean we are in an ocean and we have

Time: 6531.84

small waves we have big waves some of

Time: 6533.82

these tidal waves are going to hit all

Time: 6535.199

of us the global stressors the the

Time: 6538.139

climate disasters that will come and so

Time: 6540.9

when we're not in the middle of a wave

Time: 6542.88

which is when we need to muscle it we're

Time: 6545.58

between waves how much control do we

Time: 6549

have to fight the tide there

Time: 6552.659

some it's not black or white we we are

Time: 6556.619

we we can't fight a Riptide we need to

Time: 6559.139

go the direction of the tide but we can

Time: 6563.04

have some control in our Direction and

Time: 6566.04

it kind of goes back to

Time: 6568.139

um our colleague Robert sapolski's very

Time: 6570.54

biologically based idea of us having you

Time: 6573.36

know he's a little bit extreme with a no

Time: 6574.92

free will we are we are influenced by

Time: 6578.58

all of these things around us as well as

Time: 6581.46

all of our biological you know I'll say

Time: 6586.44

um brilliant evolutionary animal

Time: 6589.199

instincts so given all of that

Time: 6592.08

we have

Time: 6594.48

some

Time: 6596

deterministic forces on us and within

Time: 6599.4

that we get to ease up between the waves

Time: 6602.76

when we can we get to change our

Time: 6604.739

Direction but we're always going to be

Time: 6606.48

hit by the next wave and so it's this

Time: 6610.139

skillful surfing or navigating that we

Time: 6613.56

can do better when we realize when we

Time: 6616.8

control things when we can't when we can

Time: 6618.9

truly feel safe and have ease versus

Time: 6621

when we need to kind of gently paddle

Time: 6625.139

what do you think is the value of

Time: 6627.86

journaling and and placing one's own

Time: 6630.48

narrative on stressful circumstances

Time: 6632.82

especially these non-negotiable

Time: 6634.44

circumstances again I'm fascinated by

Time: 6636.84

these because I think it's a category of

Time: 6638.28

stress that's not often talked about and

Time: 6640.86

yet it's so prominent some people say

Time: 6643.139

okay you know dealing with short-term

Time: 6644.46

stress okay well my lab would say like

Time: 6646.26

use physiological size or raise your

Time: 6648.06

stress threshold and we'll get back to

Time: 6649.44

that in a little bit

Time: 6650.82

um as it relates to the work you're

Time: 6652.02

doing with breath work but

Time: 6654.239

so many stressors are going to take a

Time: 6656.639

year five years we don't know you know

Time: 6658.98

the uncertainty that you mentioned

Time: 6660.96

earlier or the the certainty that this

Time: 6663.6

is going to go on forever and so you

Time: 6666.6

know what is the

Time: 6669.3

um you know for for people that are

Time: 6671.46

listening to this and that and want to

Time: 6673.02

start to adopt practices

Time: 6675.48

um do you think that spending some time

Time: 6678.38

creating a written or a spoken narrative

Time: 6681.36

is helpful I mean we hear this but are

Time: 6684.119

there any data that support the use of

Time: 6686.04

journaling as a as a tool I seem to

Time: 6688.26

recall that there are a few studies out

Time: 6690.06

there but I can't I can't remember

Time: 6691.56

exactly yeah definitely creating a

Time: 6694.739

coherent narrative is

Time: 6697.8

critical to our ability to make sense

Time: 6700.92

Find meaning find resolution have a

Time: 6703.98

social identity around

Time: 6705.659

our lived experience what happens to us

Time: 6708.119

so narrative is kind of everything right

Time: 6710.639

in stress research it's it's not what

Time: 6712.619

happens to us it's how we're

Time: 6713.639

interpreting it and how we're

Time: 6715.619

um how we're responding to it and I've

Time: 6718.26

heard you say the exact same thing when

Time: 6720.06

you've talked about what is stress it's

Time: 6722.219

it's really what narrative we're

Time: 6723.659

creating around it so I think a

Time: 6725.88

narrative of purpose fill in the blank

Time: 6727.679

about what your what's meaningful to you

Time: 6730.139

but that is why we're different than

Time: 6732.96

just the the

Time: 6735.42

um the rats that we study or the monkeys

Time: 6737.82

like they have these amazing

Time: 6740.34

stress responses that are we have them

Time: 6743.88

too and we can't control that but we

Time: 6746.1

have the ability to do this projection

Time: 6748.199

to the Future to ask what is our purpose

Time: 6750.719

in life to see and know that we are

Time: 6754.219

going to die and we can have some

Time: 6757.56

control over how we live

Time: 6759.719

and maybe even how we die and how we

Time: 6761.94

want to be remembered that is so

Time: 6764.04

beautiful that helps us Rise Above This

Time: 6766.5

being monkeys and clothes

Time: 6769.02

I'd love before we wrap for us to return

Time: 6772.26

to this uh question about breath work

Time: 6775.08

and the study that you're doing one of

Time: 6776.88

the I've known about your work for a

Time: 6778.08

very long time admired it for a very

Time: 6779.82

long time and one of the things that um

Time: 6781.98

excited me about being able to sit down

Time: 6783.719

with you today is that uh our

Time: 6785.46

Laboratories studied breath work your

Time: 6787.26

laboratory studying breath work and um

Time: 6789.179

and I know that you've been

Time: 6791.34

doing a study on the so-called Wim Hof

Time: 6793.32

method

Time: 6794.76

um which of I'll let you familiarize our

Time: 6796.98

listeners to some of them are familiar

Time: 6798.6

with the Wim Hof method others are not I

Time: 6800.219

think a lot of people think of a whim in

Time: 6801.96

terms of his role as the Iceman because

Time: 6803.82

of cold exposure but of course he has um

Time: 6806.159

breath work practices that mirror

Time: 6809.699

um things like tumor breathing and other

Time: 6811.32

things but maybe you could tell us a

Time: 6813.06

little bit about what you're doing there

Time: 6814.139

and what you're interested in

Time: 6815.639

discovering I realize it's too early to

Time: 6817.5

give us the results but hopefully

Time: 6819.6

they'll come back and do that at another

Time: 6820.679

time but

Time: 6822.06

what is the study what motivated the

Time: 6824.4

study and maybe I can convince you to

Time: 6826.739

give us a little teaser of what you're

Time: 6828.06

discovering so for um I I for many years

Time: 6831.84

I mean I think my

Time: 6834

um first paper when I was a graduate

Time: 6836.34

student with Boost McEwen was about this

Time: 6839.04

idea of positive physiological stress

Time: 6841.86

and so I've always been wanting to

Time: 6844.56

really understand what's positive stress

Time: 6847.5

how can we induce it and instead for

Time: 6850.5

many many too many years I've been

Time: 6852

studying the dark side toxic stress

Time: 6854.219

trauma caregiving and how that is can

Time: 6857.88

take a toll on the body without the

Time: 6859.56

right resilience and resources and now

Time: 6862.92

I'm very excited about the uh

Time: 6867.9

the opportunity to just focus on

Time: 6872.52

different ways that we can stress out

Time: 6874.86

our body and mind in short-term bursts

Time: 6877.619

that might promote stress resilience and

Time: 6880.44

the body-based strategies are concrete

Time: 6883.5

they're quick they're um they're

Time: 6887.28

also my favorite strategies I I probably

Time: 6890.1

have internalized a lot of the mindsets

Time: 6891.659

and the you know the things that I've

Time: 6892.92

learned from meditation and what I feel

Time: 6895.02

the biggest bang for the buck is you

Time: 6897.06

know if I'm

Time: 6898.5

um waking up like super jittery with a

Time: 6901.38

big stress response because of X or Y it

Time: 6904.5

is actually something like a hit type

Time: 6907.92

workout or taking the dogs for like a

Time: 6910.08

really brisk walk or like burning up

Time: 6912

that energy and my body is

Time: 6915.119

um a very big effect size for me

Time: 6918

personally everyone has their you know

Time: 6919.92

different ways that they can see the

Time: 6922.56

biggest shifts in Daily stress

Time: 6925.44

so I've been looking for ways to create

Time: 6927.96

positive stress besides exercise we all

Time: 6929.699

know about exercise and I met Wim Hof at

Time: 6933.719

a uh a meeting where we talked kind of

Time: 6937.739

back to back and so we hadn't I had kind

Time: 6940.679

of heard something about you know crazy

Time: 6942.119

Iceman climbing up the Himalayas I

Time: 6944.4

really had he has 27 or more World

Time: 6946.98

Records yeah for that sort of thing yeah

Time: 6949.34

so he so I got to hear I got to do the

Time: 6952.739

breathing with him during this

Time: 6954.48

conference and I just felt like Elation

Time: 6957.6

afterwards I was like what was that and

Time: 6960.179

then he heard about telomeres and he was

Time: 6962.219

like I need to know if my method is

Time: 6964.199

affecting cell aging he loves research

Time: 6966.659

and so we he helped us design a study

Time: 6970.8

that we've been working on at UCS staff

Time: 6974.1

um with my colleagues Wendy Mendez and

Time: 6975.96

Eric Prather it's been many years and

Time: 6977.699

it's funded by the John W brick

Time: 6980.46

Foundation which is very focused on what

Time: 6982.92

are non-drugway ways that we can help

Time: 6985.26

mental health

Time: 6986.699

so it was a very good fit for all of us

Time: 6988.5

to come together and design the study

Time: 6990.06

and we have been basically comparing

Time: 6994.02

low arousal relaxation methods

Time: 6997.26

mindfulness slow breathing to positive

Time: 7000.38

stress exercise and Wim Huff method and

Time: 7003.619

one of the things that we've learned in

Time: 7006.199

a big way is that regardless of whether

Time: 7008.36

we're creating deep states of ease or

Time: 7011.86

hermetic stress in the body that

Time: 7013.82

short-term burst of either aerobic

Time: 7015.619

activity or the extreme breathing

Time: 7018.619

people feel better period so three weeks

Time: 7022.34

later after this experiment of doing

Time: 7024.08

their practice every day they were

Time: 7025.88

either randomly assigned to the high

Time: 7027.8

arousal or the low arousal the level of

Time: 7030.199

stress anxiety and depression fell

Time: 7032

dramatically in everyone so many paths

Time: 7036.32

to changes in stress there are probably

Time: 7040.28

very different physiological Pathways

Time: 7042.619

and and we can talk about that more when

Time: 7045.5

we get to really look in depth at our

Time: 7049.34

physiological data as well as our

Time: 7051.02

blood-based data but what we do know is

Time: 7053.96

that the Wim Hof method did create daily

Time: 7057.86

positive emotion that increased over

Time: 7060.26

time just like your study on sighing and

Time: 7064.34

so even though there are different

Time: 7065.36

mechanisms they were selectively

Time: 7067.46

boosting feelings of positivity I love

Time: 7071.179

that you know that's very unusual to get

Time: 7073.88

a very selective positive effect

Time: 7076.82

super interesting I can't wait to hear

Time: 7079.46

more about the data so I gather and by

Time: 7082.28

the way no is a perfectly fine answer I

Time: 7084.26

gather that you're not going to tell us

Time: 7085.28

about the whether or not there are

Time: 7086.54

telomere changes yet or maybe that's not

Time: 7089.54

possible

Time: 7090.739

um to detect in this kind of short-term

Time: 7092.96

study so what we're going to look at we

Time: 7096.98

don't really think that telomeres can

Time: 7099.98

change very quickly and telomerase May

Time: 7103.699

so we're going to look at mitochondrial

Time: 7105.5

enzymes telomerase and gene expression

Time: 7108.679

patterns and as you know we can look at

Time: 7110.78

many different mechanisms and Pathways

Time: 7113.179

with gene expression patterns especially

Time: 7114.98

with these new kind of

Time: 7116.659

essays where you can look at you know

Time: 7118.58

seven thousand different uh proteins

Time: 7122.48

like the Soma logic and so we'll get to

Time: 7125.659

see well what's the pat you know did we

Time: 7127.4

really change patterns of acute stress

Time: 7129.139

with these different types of stress

Time: 7131.3

resilience interventions and in terms of

Time: 7134.179

the physiological reactivity there are

Time: 7137.119

ways that we can

Time: 7141.139

examine both the stress response system

Time: 7144.94

sympathetic nervous system and the

Time: 7146.719

parasympathetic response system and I

Time: 7149.3

will tell you that um while we're still

Time: 7151.699

preparing the results there were very

Time: 7154.159

different profiles from the different

Time: 7155.9

interventions that make us think that

Time: 7158.9

there's a lot of specificity even though

Time: 7161.42

everyone feels better the the way that

Time: 7164.179

they got there is very different in ways

Time: 7166.28

that we're impacting both the nervous

Time: 7167.659

system and the Brain

Time: 7169.699

incredible and um I have to say when I

Time: 7172.46

heard that you were studying Wim Hof

Time: 7173.719

method I was positively uh delighted

Time: 7177.44

because I uh

Time: 7180.02

I I find that there are so few

Time: 7183.08

serious researchers in

Time: 7185.48

the realm of of modern science that are

Time: 7188.96

both explorers and then take what

Time: 7190.82

they've um you know gleaned from those

Time: 7193.219

Explorations and then take it to the

Time: 7194.78

laboratory and and put rigor on those

Time: 7197.48

and really try and parse mechanism with

Time: 7199.34

with of course all the open-mindedness

Time: 7201.02

to whatever the outcome happens to be

Time: 7202.76

right I mean good science involves

Time: 7204.619

um necessarily asking questions alone

Time: 7206.54

but

Time: 7207.739

um raising hypotheses and being

Time: 7209.239

comfortable for those hypothesis

Time: 7210.679

hypotheses to be correct or not correct

Time: 7212.599

and I find your work to be just so

Time: 7214.34

incredibly creative and brave in that

Time: 7217.4

way and I love the way that you've

Time: 7218.599

meshed different aspects of your own

Time: 7220.699

personal journey into these different

Time: 7222.98

practices I don't know what came first

Time: 7224.42

the science of the practices but I I

Time: 7226.4

have uh I have my guesses but

Time: 7229.099

um

Time: 7229.82

I must say it's it's very refreshing and

Time: 7233.3

I think it's exactly exactly what the

Time: 7236.599

world needs right now in terms of tools

Time: 7238.94

for mental health and physical health

Time: 7240.38

because

Time: 7241.82

um far too many studies uh try and

Time: 7244.639

isolate variables without understanding

Time: 7246.56

a larger context of like what are the

Time: 7248.06

different types of stressors and clearly

Time: 7249.5

you're addressing that or you know

Time: 7251.239

there's this thing breath work that some

Time: 7252.679

people might think oh you know the

Time: 7254.179

Iceman Wim Hof it's really esoteric and

Time: 7256.28

you know kind of crazy

Time: 7258.32

um I'm certainly not saying that but you

Time: 7260.599

say well what are the critical elements

Time: 7262.46

from that that we might be able to

Time: 7263.54

extract to understand this positive

Time: 7265.219

eustress phenomena so I just um for I

Time: 7268.46

want to first of all just say thank you

Time: 7269.84

for doing the incredibly important work

Time: 7271.639

you do and thank you I mean we were so

Time: 7274.099

delighted to

Time: 7275.599

um see the paper you did with David

Time: 7276.92

Spiegel and to know that you're pursuing

Time: 7279.44

this path and

Time: 7281.239

um it's very reassuring with your rigor

Time: 7284.84

and your you know depth of background I

Time: 7287.119

I agree with you this these are the

Time: 7288.5

types of studies we need we're releasing

Time: 7290.719

the inherent

Time: 7292.94

power of Rejuvenation that's in our body

Time: 7296

is UNT It's relatively untapped in these

Time: 7299.9

rigorous controlled studies and we just

Time: 7302.54

can't reduce inflammation with a drug we

Time: 7305.54

can't reduce stress with a drug we

Time: 7307.46

desperately need to learn how to use you

Time: 7309.86

know the whole range of the nervous

Time: 7311.48

system from the acute stress to the deep

Time: 7314

relaxation to heal and to promote these

Time: 7317.84

healthy resilient States

Time: 7319.52

couldn't agree more and UCSF is very

Time: 7323.719

very fortunate to have you and should

Time: 7325.46

they ever forget that please come to

Time: 7326.719

Stanford instead maybe we can recruit

Time: 7328.52

you away from UCSF and I'm here I'm

Time: 7330.5

being friendly to my colleagues at UCSF

Time: 7332.719

but um they better treat you right or

Time: 7334.4

else we're coming for you uh and I also

Time: 7338.06

just want to thank you for taking the

Time: 7339.139

time today to share this information

Time: 7340.699

also you've written wonderful books we

Time: 7342.739

will provide a link to the newest one

Time: 7344.06

and I'll

Time: 7345.26

um of course cue people to that because

Time: 7346.82

it sounds like a very rich source of

Time: 7349.28

information and actionable tools that

Time: 7351.02

people can take in terms of mitigating

Time: 7352.639

stress and I I love the idea that

Time: 7354.8

there's this discussion about certainty

Time: 7357.56

and control uh to elements that are very

Time: 7360.619

prominent in in my life um for better

Time: 7363.619

for worse and all of us all of us yeah

Time: 7367.28

and so really thank you for the work

Time: 7369.02

you're doing thank you for taking the

Time: 7370.46

time to share that work through books

Time: 7372.619

and through podcasts and especially

Time: 7374.119

today on this one I I know I speak on

Time: 7376.82

behalf of many many people and I just

Time: 7379.159

really want extend my gratitude thank

Time: 7380.96

you so much and thank you for for your

Time: 7384.08

podcast well it's a labor of love and

Time: 7386.36

it's days like today and discussions

Time: 7387.86

like this that make it worthwhile so

Time: 7389.54

thank you thanks Andrew

Time: 7391.099

thank you for joining me for today's

Time: 7392.599

discussion all about stress aging and

Time: 7395

Metabolism with Dr Alyssa Apple I hope

Time: 7397.52

you enjoyed the conversation as much as

Time: 7399.199

I did if you'd like to learn more about

Time: 7400.76

Dr Apple's laboratory's work or if you'd

Time: 7402.98

like to learn about her books such as

Time: 7404.42

the telomere effect and the stress

Time: 7406.159

prescription please see the links in the

Time: 7408.139

show note captions if you're learning

Time: 7410.06

from and or enjoying this podcast please

Time: 7412.099

subscribe to our YouTube channel that's

Time: 7413.84

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Time: 7417.86

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Time: 7422.42

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Time: 7424.76

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Time: 7536.54

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Time: 7538.099

Dr Alyssa Apple all about stress aging

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Time: 7548.23

[Music]

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