Dr. E.J. Chichilnisky: How the Brain Works, Curing Blindness & How to Navigate a Career Path

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welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

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where we discuss science and

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science-based tools for everyday

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[Music]

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life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

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professor of neurobiology and

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Opthalmology at Stanford School of

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Medicine my guest today is Dr EJ chelski

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Dr EJ chelski is a professor of

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neurosurgery Opthalmology and

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Neuroscience at Stanford University he

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is one of the world's leading

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researchers trying to understand how we

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see the world around us that is how

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visual perception occurs and then

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applying that information directly to

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the design of neural prosthesis

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literally robotic eyes that can allow

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blind people to see once again today's

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discussion is a very important one for

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anyone who wants to understand how their

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brain works indeed EJ spells out in very

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clear terms exactly how the world around

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us is encoded by the neurons the nerve

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cells within our brain in order to

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create these elaborate visual images

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that we essentially see within our minds

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and with that understanding he explains

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how that can be applied to engineer

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specific robotic Ai and machine learning

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devices that can allow human brains not

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only to see once again in the blind but

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also to perceive things that typical

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human brains can't and indeed for memory

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to be enhanced and for cognition to be

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enhanced this is the direction that

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Neuroscience is going and in the course

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of today's discussion we have the

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opportunity to learn from the world

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World expert in these topics where the

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science is now and where it is headed

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during today's discussion we also get

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heavily into the topic of how to select

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one's professional and personal path and

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indeed you'll learn from Dr chelski that

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he has a somewhat unusual path both into

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science and through science so for those

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of you that believe that everyone that's

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highly accomplished in their career

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always knew exactly what they wanted to

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do at every stage you will soon learn

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that that is absolutely not the case

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with EJ he described

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wandering through three different

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graduate programs taking several years

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off from school in order to dance Yes

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you heard that correctly to dance and

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how that wandering and indeed dancing

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helped him decide exactly what he wanted

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to do with his professional life and

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exactly what specific problems to try

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and Tackle in the realm of Neuroscience

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and medicine it's a discussion that I'm

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certain that everybody scientist or no

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young or old can benefit from and can

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apply the specific tools that EJ

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describes in their own life and Pursuits

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before we begin I'd like to emphasize

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that this podcast is separate from my

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teaching and research roles at Stanford

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it is however part of my desire and

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effort to bring zero cost to Consumer

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information about science and science

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related tools to the general public in

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keeping with that theme I'd like to

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thank the sponsors of today's podcast

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huberman and now for my discussion with

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Dr EJ

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chelski Dr EJ chelski welcome good to

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see you for the audience we are friends

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we go way back EJ has been a few years

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or more ahead of me in the science game

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and the best way to describe you and

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your work EJ is you're an astronaut you

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go places no one else has been willing

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to go before he developed new

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technologies in order to do that all

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with the Bold mission of trying to

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understand how the nervous system which

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of course includes the brain works and

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how to make it better with engineering

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so today we are going to get into all of

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that but just to start off and get

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everybody on the same page maybe we

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could just take a moment and talk about

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the brain and nervous system and you

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know what it consists of that allows to

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do all the sorts of things that we're

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going to get into like see things in our

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environment and respond to those things

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in our environment so at risk of

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throwing too much at you right out the

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gate what's your one to five minute

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version of how the brain

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works oh I don't have a one to five

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minute version of how the brain works

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but I can tell you how I think uh vision

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is initiated in the brain and

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um you and I go back a long way so we

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have a lot of common understanding about

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this but I'll narrate it from scratch if

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if that makes

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sense um so vision is initiated in the

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retina uh of the eye which is a sheet

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neural tissue at the rear of the eye

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that captures the light that is incident

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on the eye that comes in through the

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through the eye transforms that light

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into electrical signals processes those

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electrical signals in interesting ways

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and changes them up and then sends that

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visual information to the brain where it

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is used to bring about our sense of

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vision and uh you you asked me about the

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1 to five minute version how the brain

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works I don't know but I do know that

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the brain receives all these patterns of

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electrical activity coming out of these

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nerve cells and the retina and somehow

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assembles that into our visual

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experience whether that be responding to

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things coming at us or our circadian

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rhythm

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that that govern our sleep and behavior

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or identifying objects for prey or

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avoiding Predators or appreciating

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Beauty and what we know is that the

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brain receives a fantastically complex

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set of signals from the retina and puts

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that all together into our visual

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experience and we are very visual

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creatures obviously so I think that's a

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big part of how the brain works because

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so much of what we do revolves around

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vision revolves around how the brain

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puts together these signals coming out

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of the retina and I would love to

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understand how that works at the moment

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I don't uh and what we're trying to do

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is get a really complete understanding

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of how that begins in the retina and

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then how we can restore it and those who

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have lost

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sight why focus on this issue in the

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retina this thin set of layers of

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neurons that line the back of the eye

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what why why explore there I mean

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obviously there are centers within the

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brain that of course contain neurons

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nerve cells that are involved in Vision

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if one wants to understand visual

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perception and I agree by the way that

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visual perception is one of the most

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dominant forces in the quality and

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experience of our

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life why focus on the retina why not

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focus on the visual cortex or the visual

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thalmus I me what's so special about the

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retina well we have to focus on all of

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it because understanding the retina

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won't give us a full understanding of

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how all this works obviously and if you

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don't have your visual cortex and visual

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Thalamus you won't see but if you don't

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have your retina you also won't see you

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won't even have a chance to see so I

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focus on the retina because um I enjoy

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the possibility that we can really

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understand a piece of the nervous system

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in my lifetime in our lifetimes we can

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understand it so well that we can build

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it replace it restore its function

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that's farther off in this in the

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central regions of the brain it's going

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to be quite a bit harder um I find

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satisfaction in really understanding

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something so well that I can write down

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in a mathematical formula what it's

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doing that I can test my hypothesis up

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and down and yes we really get how this

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little machine works and that I can

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engineer devices to replace the function

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of that circuit when it's lost that to

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me is just deeply satisfying but there

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also has is a really fundamental role

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for people who want to go and do more

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exploratory work in the visual brain as

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you mentioned in the visual cortex and

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the phalus and other places because

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ultimately those retinal signals won't

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lead to anything if those areas aren't

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putting it all together to govern our

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perception and our ultimately our

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Behavior so let's talk about the retina

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in its full Beauty and

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detail three layers of cells line the

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back of the eye like a pie

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crust somehow take light that comes into

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the eye lens focuses that light if it

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doesn't do that well we put lenses in

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front of our eyes such as contact lenses

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or

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spectacles and somehow takes that light

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and transforms it as you said into

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neural signals and processes that within

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the retina so let's take a deep dive

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into the retina and do so with the

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understanding at least my understanding

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is that

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in part thanks to your work and the work

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of others this is perhaps the best

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understood piece of the brain yes I

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think it's a solid argument that it's

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the best understood piece of the brain

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and uh we'll turn back to that in a

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minute so um the retina begins with a

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sheet of cells called the photo receptor

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cells that are highly specialized these

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are cells that essentially don't exist

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anywhere else in the brain and what they

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do is transform light energy into

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electrical signals in neurons very

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specialized very uh demanding cells they

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require a lot of Maintenance and they

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die relatively easily which is what

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gives rise to some some of the forms of

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blindness those are the you might call

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them pixel detectors they're tiny cells

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called photo receptors that each one

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captures light from a particular

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location in the

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world that sheet of cells has done that

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initial transduction process where light

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is converted into neural signals that

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the brain can then begin to work with

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the second layer is responsible

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for processing adjusting changing mixing

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and matching uh comparing signals and

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different neurons many complex

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operations that we're still trying to

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understand and consists of dozens of

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distinct cell types that extract

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features if you will of the visual World

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from the elementary pixels represented

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in the photo receptor cells so that

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second layer is receiving the input from

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that sheet of photo receptors and

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picking stuff out of

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it the third layer of cells is the

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so-called retinol gangan cells that's

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the only uh term that I'd like to

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probably will come up repeatedly in this

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conversation uh so for your for your

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viewers and listeners um these retinol

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ganglin cells are the ones who are

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responsible for taking the signals that

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are there in the retina and sending them

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to the brain so that the process of

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vision can begin they are the The

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Messengers if you will from the retina

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to the brain the retinal ganglin cells

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and there are about 20 different types

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in humans um are again feature

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extractors they pick out different bits

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and pieces of the visual scene and send

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interesting stuff to the brain trying to

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leave out the uninteresting stuff and

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the 20 or so cell types all pick out

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different types of information from the

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visual scene you can sort of think of

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them as Photoshop filters each cell type

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in the retina um again about 20

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different gangin cell types each type

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represents the full scene the entire

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visual world but picks out different

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features such as some cells pick out

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spatial detail tiny little Points of

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Light almost some cells pick out and

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Signal information about things that are

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moving in the visual World some cells

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pick out information that's been

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captured about different wavelengths

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from the photo receptor cells and there

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thereby giving us our sensations of

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color and probably more things in those

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20 different gangin cell types that we

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don't fully

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understand the result then is that the

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retina has this sort of a representation

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of the visual world but it has 20

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different representations not one it's

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not one picture that comes out of the

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retina and gets sent to the brain no no

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no it's 20 different pictures and you

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can think of maybe as 20 different

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photoshopped pictures but one of them

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has the edges highlighted one of them

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has the colors highlighted one of them

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has movement uh encoded in it and these

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somehow these filters send the

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information to many different targets in

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the brain and our brain puts it off Al

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together and then we have a cohesive

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sense of the visual World which is the

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remarkable feature that we really don't

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understand

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amazing is it fair for those that don't

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work with Photoshop to think about these

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um different Photoshop filters perhaps

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as like different movies of the visual

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world one movie contains the outlines of

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objects and people and things another

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movie is showing the motion of blobs in

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the environment meaning whatever is

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moving environment is kind of just

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represented as blobs another movie is

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just the color in the environment

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another and then all of those what I'm

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calling movies are sent into the brain

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and then the brain somehow combines

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those in ways that allow us to see each

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other and see cars and objects and

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recognize faces is that is that one way

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to think about that that's exactly how I

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think about it maybe it's a better way

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to say it no I I I like the Photoshop

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filter uh analogy I just for those that

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don't work with Photoshop um you know I

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I just think that the movie analogy

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might might be a decent alternative how

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the retina works is an example we think

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of how all sensory systems work there's

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an initial representation in a

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specialized cell type that is it is that

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is responsible for and capable of

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extracting physical features from the

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world and then neural circuits in the

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brain use that information in different

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ways to grab stuff out of the visual

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world in the auditory system there's the

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the sound world is represented also in

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specialized cells that capture sound

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energy and transduce that into neural

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signals and then subsequent p uh stages

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of processing in the auditory system

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pick out different features of our

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auditory world like the frequency how

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high or how low a tone is right the

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direction it's coming from right the

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movement of it uh how loud it is

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different features are extracted so the

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we think the visual system is just an

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example of how the external world is

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represented in our brain and of course

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in some sense a a philosophical approach

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to the brain is really saying well

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there's the sensory world and then

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there's the actions we take and there's

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almost nothing else that we really know

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other than those two things how the

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sensory world comes in and then finally

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it results in our action that's what our

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brain is about because vision is so

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important for people I find it

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absolutely compelling and fascinating I

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mean as an example as you know well many

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people study rodents

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uh to understand how different aspects

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of the brain work and um you know

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rodents are interesting animals and do

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all sorts of really cool things but they

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interact with the world differently than

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we do they in in a lot of ways they

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sense by smelling they they identify

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objects by smelling and they navigate

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with their whiskers in to a large extent

Time: 1100.88

we don't do any of that you don't

Time: 1102

navigate with your whiskers at least I

Time: 1103.4

don't think you do you don't recognize

Time: 1106.08

me when I walk in the room by my smell

Time: 1108

no you use for all that and we humans

Time: 1111.48

use Vision so it's a really fundamental

Time: 1113.32

aspect of who we are as biological

Time: 1116.64

creatures I wonder if just for sake of

Time: 1120.84

entertainment uh we could think about

Time: 1123.24

how the human retina and therefore

Time: 1126.32

Vision in our species differs a little

Time: 1128.6

bit from some extreme examples of vision

Time: 1131.679

in other species not to make this a

Time: 1134.48

comparative um or Zoological um

Time: 1137.4

exploration but just to really

Time: 1139.72

illustrate the fact that the specific

Time: 1141.84

cell types within our

Time: 1144.36

retinas create a visual representation

Time: 1146.919

of the outside world that can be and

Time: 1150.159

often is very different from that of

Time: 1152.039

other species um for instance or at

Time: 1155.799

least my understanding is that the

Time: 1157.32

mantis shrimp sees I don't know 60 to

Time: 1161.48

100 different variations of each color

Time: 1164.679

that we are essentially blind to because

Time: 1167.44

their photoreceptors can detect very

Time: 1169.88

subtle differences in red for instance

Time: 1172.76

long wavelengths of light what most

Time: 1174.64

people refer to as red um pit vipers

Time: 1177.32

cons sense heat

Time: 1178.6

emissions essentially with their eyes

Time: 1180.679

but also other organs um and on and on

Time: 1184.12

you know it I raise this because I think

Time: 1187.4

the the human neuro retina is such an

Time: 1190.28

incredible example of extracting

Time: 1192.84

features from the visual world that then

Time: 1194.559

we recreate but I think it's also worth

Time: 1197.32

reminding everyone and ourselves that

Time: 1201

it's not a complete representation of

Time: 1202.64

what's out there like there's a lot in

Time: 1204.44

light that we don't see because our

Time: 1208.28

neuro retina just can't turn it into

Time: 1210.24

electrical signals right you want to

Time: 1211.799

give some examples of what we can't see

Time: 1213.919

and if any um particular examples from

Time: 1215.96

the Animal Kingdom Delight you feel free

Time: 1217.48

to throw those out well one thing you

Time: 1220.88

mentioned color um we experience a rich

Time: 1224.36

sensation of color when we look at the

Time: 1226

world and say wow I see all these colors

Time: 1227.96

that's immediate

Time: 1229.6

and that's just how we talk about it but

Time: 1233.24

in fact we have very little information

Time: 1236.039

about color color is a very

Time: 1238.24

high-dimensional complex thing or

Time: 1240.28

wavelength I should say wavelength

Time: 1241.96

information really is about how much

Time: 1245.96

energy there is in the light around us

Time: 1247.76

at different wavelengths we only have

Time: 1250.24

three sort of snapshots of that in our

Time: 1254.24

retinas with the three different types

Time: 1256.24

of photo receptor cells that are

Time: 1257.88

sensitive to different wavelength

Time: 1260

different bands of the wavelength

Time: 1262.64

Spectrum three is not a lot as you just

Time: 1265.2

said other creatures have many more ways

Time: 1268.4

of capturing wavelength information and

Time: 1271.36

one way you can verify for yourself that

Time: 1273.12

we just have three is to realize that if

Time: 1275.799

you look at your TV there are only three

Time: 1277.919

primaries on your TV there's a red

Time: 1279.48

there's a green and there's a blue

Time: 1280.6

that's it and from those three primaries

Time: 1283.44

the entire richness of the experience on

Time: 1285.36

your TV set is uh composed so with just

Time: 1289.12

those three things you basically are

Time: 1290.919

able to create any human visual

Time: 1293

sensation well the mantis shrimp would

Time: 1294.44

be like that's nothing there's so much

Time: 1297.52

more stuff out there that's not

Time: 1298.88

represented on this TV if you could

Time: 1301.32

speak to the mantis shrimp another thing

Time: 1303.64

we we maybe don't see another example of

Time: 1305.919

a difference in the animal kingdom is so

Time: 1309.12

um again taking rodents as an example

Time: 1311.12

one of the one of the things rodents

Time: 1312.6

have to do is to not be hunted by birds

Time: 1316.279

that are coming down toward them

Time: 1319.279

and so it it appears that there are

Time: 1321.32

cells in the retina that

Time: 1323.039

are seem to be quite sensitive to what

Time: 1326.279

to uh looming to something dark that's

Time: 1329.36

getting bigger uh like a shadow coming

Time: 1332.279

from a bird coming down at you we don't

Time: 1334.08

know for sure that this is exactly what

Time: 1335.88

causes animals to avoid being eaten by

Time: 1338.88

birds but there's there's interesting

Time: 1340.559

evidence in that direction that's not

Time: 1343.159

really a big thing for us for humans as

Time: 1345.32

far as I know we're not typically hunted

Time: 1346.96

by huge birds so that's not a thing we

Time: 1349.12

need and I think that's that's where

Time: 1351

comes back to where you were headed if I

Time: 1353.2

understand right um which is we occupy

Time: 1356.559

different biological niches we and the

Time: 1358.48

Manta shrimp and the rodents and our

Time: 1360.52

visual systems reflect that we have

Time: 1362.96

different stuff that we're looking for

Time: 1364.679

in our visual environment than other

Time: 1366.32

creatures are and so our eyes are

Time: 1369.36

different and that's one of the reasons

Time: 1370.679

that we emphasize work on the human

Time: 1372.96

retina um as opposed to other certain

Time: 1375.6

other animal species that would be less

Time: 1377.64

clearly relevant to the visual

Time: 1379.159

experience you and I have so let's talk

Time: 1381.88

about these incredible experiments that

Time: 1384.36

your laboratory has been doing for

Time: 1385.919

several decades now I've had the uh

Time: 1389.2

privilege of sitting in on some of these

Time: 1391

experiments and they are very involved

Time: 1395.039

um to say the least if you could just

Time: 1397.96

walk us through one of these experiments

Time: 1399.6

I think the audience would appreciate

Time: 1401.44

understanding what goes into quote

Time: 1403.559

unquote trying to understand what's

Time: 1405.76

going on in the electrical activity of

Time: 1407.64

these specific retinal cell types the

Time: 1409.039

retinal gangling cells in particular um

Time: 1411.4

you know what does this look like you

Time: 1412.72

know you're in your laboratory at

Time: 1415.159

Stanford and you get a phone call

Time: 1418.64

someone says I got a retina what happens

Time: 1422.2

next we scramble like crazy we drop

Time: 1425.84

everything we're doing cancel all our

Time: 1427.2

appointments and get ourselves ready for

Time: 1428.679

48 hours of non-stop work down in the

Time: 1431.12

lab getting as much data as we possibly

Time: 1432.919

can from the retina the most exciting

Time: 1435.72

example of what you just said is when we

Time: 1437.2

get a human retina when for example

Time: 1440.08

there's a a donor who has died and the

Time: 1442.76

retina is available for research we jump

Time: 1445.159

at that opportunity how soon after uh

Time: 1447.799

the person is deceased do you need to

Time: 1450.08

get the eye Globe the eyeball in order

Time: 1452.919

to get the retina in a condition that

Time: 1454.88

would allow you to record electrical

Time: 1456.559

signals from it a few minutes just

Time: 1459.32

you're waiting in the hospital um typic

Time: 1461.559

the way we typically get these eyes is

Time: 1463.36

from brain dead individuals so people

Time: 1465.84

who are legally and medically dead but

Time: 1468.039

they're hearts are still pumping and

Time: 1469.799

therefore their retinas are still alive

Time: 1472.039

and functioning when when those

Time: 1475.88

individuals uh are used their the bodies

Time: 1478.799

of those individuals are used for organ

Time: 1480.96

donations we can benefit from that organ

Time: 1483.799

donation setup that organ distribution

Time: 1486.48

centers do to save many people's lives

Time: 1489.96

and also to promote research so we

Time: 1492.52

sometimes get those retinas and that

Time: 1494.399

begins the experiment for us um I'm

Time: 1496.36

gonna ask for a few more details here

Time: 1497.76

just to put the picture in people's

Time: 1499.84

minds and not to be gruesome I just

Time: 1501.52

really want people to understand what's

Time: 1502.919

involved here so you'll get a call we've

Time: 1504.76

got a a patient who is soon to be

Time: 1506.799

deceased um they've consented to giving

Time: 1509.679

their eye Globes their eyeballs for

Time: 1511.64

research so that you can study the human

Time: 1513.44

retina y um is it you who goes over and

Time: 1517.399

takes the eyes out does somebody do that

Time: 1519.48

or hand them to you in a bucket of ice

Time: 1522.52

I'm sorry if I'm making people queasy at

Time: 1524.32

all but th this is folks how uh one goes

Time: 1527.52

about trying to understand understand

Time: 1528.6

how the human brain works absolutely and

Time: 1530.279

this is also how you go about donating

Time: 1532.279

your heart so that you can save somebody

Time: 1534.32

else's life who needs a heart transplant

Time: 1536.279

the same incredible organizations that

Time: 1537.96

do the harvesting of the tissue for us

Time: 1540.52

their primary goal is to do that for

Time: 1542.2

organ donations to save lives they save

Time: 1544.039

lives every day these people are

Time: 1545.279

incredible donor Network West is one of

Time: 1547.44

those organizations the one that we work

Time: 1548.919

with um they're really amazing um so

Time: 1552.12

their technicians or a retinal surgeon

Time: 1554.84

will take the eye out give it to myself

Time: 1557.919

or some somebody from my lab who will

Time: 1559.44

bring it back to the lab and we have a

Time: 1560.96

way to keep the eye alive and

Time: 1562.96

functioning just the eye by itself is

Time: 1565.039

this always at Stanford or do you

Time: 1566.44

sometimes travel elsewhere local

Time: 1567.6

hospitals up to an hour away so then you

Time: 1570.08

drive them back we drive them back it's

Time: 1572.12

the retina Express and when when we're

Time: 1575.559

bringing back the retin Express it's uh

Time: 1578

again it's all hands on deck in our lab

Time: 1580.36

we are scrambling setting up all of our

Time: 1581.96

equipment getting everything ready

Time: 1583.08

you've been at these experiments they're

Time: 1584.48

intense and they really are really are

Time: 1586.2

48 hour marathons of incredible activity

Time: 1588.96

by really dedicated individuals so um we

Time: 1593.32

we might get those eyes sometimes we get

Time: 1594.88

them at 2 in the morning that's common

Time: 1597.159

and from that to in the morning time um

Time: 1599.6

Begins the experiment so we bring the

Time: 1601.44

eyes back we open them up and we we have

Time: 1605.72

access to the rear of the eye which is

Time: 1607.52

what the where the retina is it's a thin

Time: 1609.2

sheet of neural tissue at the back part

Time: 1611.159

of the eye we hemis the eye cut it in

Time: 1615.52

half so that we can see the back it's

Time: 1617.36

like half of a glow if you will and then

Time: 1619.559

we put in relaxing cuts and lay it out

Time: 1621.64

flat so we can see what we're working

Time: 1623.159

with then we take little segments of

Time: 1625.24

retina out in the subsequent 48 Hours

Time: 1628.52

cut them out maybe a 3X3 millimeter

Time: 1630.559

piece of the retina a little chunk of

Time: 1631.799

retinal tissue and bring it into an

Time: 1634.039

electrophysiology recording and

Time: 1635.919

stimulation apparatus that allow allows

Time: 1637.76

us to interact with it and we do two

Time: 1639.84

types of experiments with that so this

Time: 1642.12

electrophysiological recording and

Time: 1643.6

stimulation apparatus is very custom

Time: 1646.559

built by our physics collaborator who

Time: 1648.52

have developed high-end equipment it

Time: 1650.44

allows us to record and stimulate

Time: 1652.24

through 512 channels simultaneously at

Time: 1654.84

very high density this is pretty

Time: 1657.6

high-end stuff in terms of uh technology

Time: 1660.6

for interrogating and manipulating the

Time: 1663.12

electrical signals in the retina that's

Time: 1664.84

what we specialize in in my lab could I

Time: 1666.919

just ask a question about this device um

Time: 1669.279

I've seen it before uh it's very small

Time: 1671.519

as you mentioned your recording from a

Time: 1673.08

few millimet square of the of the retina

Time: 1676.6

um from this recently deceased patient

Time: 1679.799

um it looks a little bit like a bed of

Time: 1681.559

nails right like tiny little microwires

Time: 1684.12

all arranged very Clos to one another

Time: 1688.08

you got the retina laying down on top of

Time: 1689.679

it and that bed of nails can extract

Time: 1692.96

meaning record the electrical signals

Time: 1695.12

that are coming out of the retinal

Time: 1696.76

gangion cells that's right and the

Time: 1698.399

retina is still alive so you are in a

Time: 1701.6

position to shine light on it and

Time: 1705.039

essentially um make it behave um um in

Time: 1709.08

the same way it would if it were still

Time: 1710.32

lining the back of a healthy alive

Time: 1713.279

person that is the beauty of these

Time: 1714.799

experiments so because we can keep the

Time: 1716.519

retina alive and happy and because the

Time: 1718.72

retinal ganglin cells the cells that are

Time: 1720.6

the ones that message the visual

Time: 1722.72

information to the brain are on the

Time: 1725.32

surface we can put them right next to

Time: 1727.039

the electrodes and we can record their

Time: 1728.64

electrical activity in other words we

Time: 1730.12

record the signal that those cells would

Time: 1731.76

have sent to the brain if they were

Time: 1733.6

still in the living person and at the

Time: 1736.279

same time as you said we can focus an

Time: 1738.36

image that we create on a computer

Time: 1740.12

display onto the retina so we're

Time: 1741.799

treating the retina if you will as a

Time: 1743.36

little electronic circuit which it

Time: 1745.72

almost is honestly delivering light to

Time: 1748.88

the photo receptor cells so that they

Time: 1750.64

are electrically excited and then

Time: 1754.48

recording the electrical activity that

Time: 1756.08

the retina is sending out if you will

Time: 1759.12

that allows us to study how the retina

Time: 1760.799

Works

Time: 1762.519

normally what we also do with that same

Time: 1765.6

electrical apparatus is turn around and

Time: 1768.24

pass current through those electrodes in

Time: 1771.159

order to see if we can activate those

Time: 1773.36

ganglin cells directly with no light

Time: 1775.519

just electrodes why do we do that we do

Time: 1778.159

that because it allows us to design

Time: 1780.96

future methods of restoring Vision by

Time: 1784.72

electrical stimulation of the retina

Time: 1786.44

which we'll probably talk about in a few

Time: 1788.24

minutes I'd like to take a brief moment

Time: 1790.64

and thank one of our sponsors and that's

Time: 1792.559

ag1 ag1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic

Time: 1795.919

drink that also contains adaptogens I

Time: 1798.6

started taking ag1 way back in 2012 the

Time: 1801.76

reason I started taking it and the

Time: 1803.039

reason I still take it every day is that

Time: 1805.039

it ensures that I meet all of my quotas

Time: 1807.039

for vitamins and minerals and it ensures

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that I get enough Prebiotic and

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probiotic to support gut health now gut

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health is something that over the last

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10 years we realized is not just

Time: 1817.2

important for the health of our gut but

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also for our immune system and for the

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production of neurotransmitters and

Time: 1823.72

neuromodulators things like dopamine and

Time: 1825.559

serotonin in other words gut health is

Time: 1827.559

critical for proper brain functioning

Time: 1830

now of course I strive to consume

Time: 1831.72

healthy Whole Foods for the majority of

Time: 1833.399

my nutritional intake every single day

Time: 1836.2

but there are a number of things in ag1

Time: 1838.08

including specific micronutrients that

Time: 1839.88

are hard to get from Whole Foods or at

Time: 1841.48

least in sufficient quantities so ag1

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allows me to get the vitamins and

Time: 1845.24

minerals that I need probiotics

Time: 1846.799

prebiotics the adaptogens and critical

Time: 1849.399

micronutrients so anytime somebody asks

Time: 1851.679

me if they were to take Just One

Time: 1853.36

supplement what that supplement should

Time: 1855.159

be I tell them ag1 because ag1 supports

Time: 1858.44

so many different systems within the

Time: 1859.96

body that are involved in mental health

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physical health and performance to try

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again that's drink a1.com

Time: 1875.679

huberman let's take this moment to talk

Time: 1878.32

a little bit about cell types so um you

Time: 1880.559

mentioned there are about 20 different

Time: 1882.639

types of these retinal gangling cells

Time: 1885

what we may refer to in brief as r gc's

Time: 1888.76

so retinal gangling cells rgc's same

Time: 1890.76

thing

Time: 1892.32

and as you mentioned these cover the

Time: 1894.84

entire retina so that if each cell type

Time: 1898.08

is extracting a different set of

Time: 1900.36

features from the visual World motion

Time: 1902.44

color specific colors

Time: 1905.08

Etc that essentially no location in the

Time: 1909.039

world around us fails to be represented

Time: 1912.519

by these cells put differently these

Time: 1914.039

cells are looking everywhere um each

Time: 1917.559

cell

Time: 1918.519

cell type is looking everywhere um so

Time: 1921.279

that if movement occurs in any region of

Time: 1923.48

our visual world we are in a position to

Time: 1925.88

detect it um but maybe we could talk a

Time: 1928.679

little bit about cell types cell types

Time: 1930.039

is such an important theme in the field

Time: 1932.32

of Neuroscience and indeed in all of

Time: 1934.24

biology but it's actually not something

Time: 1936.2

we have talked about very much on this

Time: 1937.88

podcast before either in Solo episodes

Time: 1939.799

or in guest episodes um I don't have any

Time: 1943.72

specific reason for that we've talked

Time: 1945.039

about brain areas prefrontal cortex

Time: 1947

basil ganglia anterior mingal cortex and

Time: 1949.72

on and on we' talked about neural

Time: 1951

circuits but we've never really talked

Time: 1953.24

about cell types so the gangan cells as

Time: 1955.88

other you let me down no talking about

Time: 1957.399

cell types well but that's why you're

Time: 1958.639

here that's why I'm here that's why

Time: 1959.88

you're here um tell us about cell types

Time: 1962.919

how do you figure

Time: 1964.159

out if you have a cell type how do you

Time: 1967.039

know if it's a cell type or you know is

Time: 1969.24

it the shape is it how it responds um

Time: 1972.08

how do you know if you have a cell type

Time: 1973.88

what what's this about and I want to

Time: 1975.399

just um put in the back of this question

Time: 1978.84

um or rather in the back of people's

Time: 1980.08

minds that um this issue of cell types

Time: 1982.399

is not just an issue pertinent to the

Time: 1984.36

retina this is an issue that is critical

Time: 1986.76

to understanding how the brain works

Time: 1989.039

absolutely it's critical to understand

Time: 1990.32

Consciousness I know a lot of people

Time: 1991.72

like what is consciousness right we're

Time: 1993.2

not going there just yet but uh what are

Time: 1996.159

cell types how do you determine if you

Time: 1997.639

have a cell type and why is this so

Time: 1999.12

important to understanding how the brain

Time: 2001.08

works yeah I mean as as you said as as

Time: 2004

far as we understand every single brain

Time: 2005.76

circuit is full of very distinct cell

Time: 2007.519

types those cell types are distinguished

Time: 2009.48

by their genetic expression their shapes

Time: 2012.559

and sizes which other cells they do

Time: 2015.84

contact and which cells they don't

Time: 2017.84

contact where they send their

Time: 2019.919

information to in other parts of the

Time: 2021.919

brain and what they represent and as far

Time: 2024.44

as we know this is true throughout the

Time: 2026.88

brain and it's true in the retina the

Time: 2029.159

different gangling cell types retinal

Time: 2030.76

ganglin cell types about 20 of them Each

Time: 2033.48

of which is looking at the whole visual

Time: 2034.88

scene extracts different stuff this cell

Time: 2037.399

type one extracts one thing cell type

Time: 2039.12

two extracts something else but they all

Time: 2041

represent the entire visual scene but

Time: 2043.519

those cell types we know from lots of

Time: 2045.44

beautiful work work that you're closely

Time: 2047.559

connected to and some of which you've

Time: 2048.919

done um those cell types have different

Time: 2052.639

morphology different shapes and sizes

Time: 2054.879

different patterns of gene expression

Time: 2056.96

different targets in the brain they send

Time: 2058.839

their outputs to different places in the

Time: 2062

brain so really to study the retina

Time: 2066.159

without understanding cell types you're

Time: 2068.119

kind of lost right away you have to know

Time: 2069.679

what's going on with the cell types

Time: 2070.76

otherwise you can't make sense of this

Time: 2072.04

retinol signal the way we we identify

Time: 2074.599

them in two ways and they're different

Time: 2076

for different purposes the the basic way

Time: 2078.359

we identify the different cell types is

Time: 2080.159

their function because we study their

Time: 2081.76

function we study how they respond to

Time: 2083.8

light images and we can clearly separate

Time: 2086.44

them out and in fact it's it's a simple

Time: 2088.8

thing to say but it's really true our

Time: 2090.879

512 electrod technology which you've

Time: 2093

seen in our lab and stuff that developed

Time: 2094.879

with collaborators um about 20 years ago

Time: 2098.119

um was crucial for this because with

Time: 2100.119

that 512 electrode technology we could

Time: 2102.04

see many cells of each type and we could

Time: 2105.04

clearly parse them apart from one

Time: 2106.92

another whereas previous studies working

Time: 2108.72

on one cell at a time had great

Time: 2110.72

difficulty doing that so with our

Time: 2113.119

technology with 512 electrodes we record

Time: 2115.2

hundreds of cells simultaneously we say

Time: 2116.839

oh there's 20 of these there are 50 of

Time: 2118.44

those there's 26 of those and here they

Time: 2120.44

are and we can just set them in

Time: 2122.04

different bins and say okay this is

Time: 2124.16

what's present in this retina just what

Time: 2127.88

the information is they're

Time: 2129.44

extracting there's another purpose again

Time: 2132.48

referring forward to the

Time: 2133.4

neuroengineering aspect we need to

Time: 2135.119

identify the cell types not just based

Time: 2137.04

on what visual information they carry

Time: 2139.32

but based on their electrical features

Time: 2141.68

properties electrical properties of the

Time: 2143.68

cells cells as you know neurons are

Time: 2145.92

electrical cells they fundamentally

Time: 2148.92

receive and transmit electrical

Time: 2150.4

information and the way that they do

Time: 2152.04

that has a distinctive electrical

Time: 2153.599

signature that turns out to be super

Time: 2155.359

important for developing devices to to

Time: 2157.76

restore

Time: 2159.64

Vision could you explain how you

Time: 2163.4

determine what a given cell type does

Time: 2165.839

its electrical properties um let's just

Time: 2169.16

draw a mental image for people uh the

Time: 2172.16

retina's taken out of this deceased

Time: 2173.599

individual put down on this bed of nails

Time: 2175.88

of electrodes those electrodes can

Time: 2177.76

detect electrical signals within the

Time: 2179.4

gangling cells you are able to shine

Time: 2181.64

light onto the retina and see how the

Time: 2183.8

retinal gangling cells respond meaning

Time: 2185.319

what electrical signals they would

Time: 2187.88

transmit to the brain if they were still

Time: 2189.52

connected to a brain they're not

Time: 2191.96

connected to a brain in the experiment

Time: 2193.319

they're sitting there they're trying but

Time: 2194.839

they're

Time: 2197.16

trying I could imagine playing those

Time: 2199.68

cells a movie of I don't know a

Time: 2202.599

checkerboard going where every um Square

Time: 2205.28

on the checkerboard goes from white to

Time: 2206.72

black to gray could do that I could um

Time: 2210.64

play a

Time: 2211.68

cartoon I could um show it uh this

Time: 2215.119

year's Academy Award winner for best

Time: 2216.72

picture like how do you decide what to

Time: 2218.88

show the retina this is a human being's

Time: 2221.44

retina after all uh presumably it looked

Time: 2224.64

at things that are relevant to human

Time: 2226.24

beings until that person died but how do

Time: 2228.88

you determine cell type electrical

Time: 2231.28

signals if you don't know what specific

Time: 2234.44

things to show it I mean you're going to

Time: 2235.88

show it I don't know Disney movies like

Time: 2238.359

what what do you show

Time: 2240.56

it

Time: 2242.2

so what we shown now reflects the fact

Time: 2245

that we've built up a lot of information

Time: 2246.72

and our work stands on the shoulders of

Time: 2248.44

many scientists who have studied the

Time: 2249.92

retina for decades to figure out what

Time: 2252

different cell types respond to and um

Time: 2256.24

we know that certain cell types respond

Time: 2259.319

primarily to increments of light when

Time: 2261.44

light gets brighter than it was so a

Time: 2263.52

change from a certain brightness to a

Time: 2265.599

higher brightness this particular cell

Time: 2267.76

type fires another cell type fires or

Time: 2270.72

send spikes to the brain when it gets

Time: 2273.52

darker some cell types uh respond

Time: 2276.88

primarily to large Targets in the visual

Time: 2280.24

World other cell types respond better to

Time: 2282.64

small Targets in the visual

Time: 2284.72

World some cell types respond to

Time: 2287.119

different wavelengths of light that we

Time: 2288.72

can identify there exist certain cell

Time: 2291.64

types that are still poorly understood

Time: 2294.04

that respond to movement so we can

Time: 2296.56

tailor visual stimuli to types that we

Time: 2299.52

kind of already know about because of

Time: 2301.4

much preceding

Time: 2302.8

research that's not actually how we do

Time: 2304.92

it in our experiments for the most part

Time: 2306.839

instead we use a very unbiased

Time: 2308.599

flickering checkerboard pattern as it

Time: 2310.359

turns out which is a really efficient

Time: 2313.079

unbiased way to sample many cells

Time: 2316

simultaneously so that in a half hour of

Time: 2318.2

electrical recording from a retina we

Time: 2320.56

can figure out what all the 512 or so

Time: 2323.76

cells are that we're recording and know

Time: 2325.48

all of their types and the way we do

Time: 2327.72

that is to play essentially random

Time: 2330.2

garbage TV snow Type image to the retina

Time: 2332.88

for a period of time and determine which

Time: 2337.04

bits of of brightening or darkening or

Time: 2338.76

movement or whatever in that random

Time: 2340.76

garbage activated this particular cell

Time: 2343.04

by looking AC at average across the half

Time: 2345.48

hour recording and saying oh it looks

Time: 2347.119

like this cell was always firing when it

Time: 2349.4

became bright in this region of the

Time: 2350.839

screen that must be an on Cell sensitive

Time: 2353.28

to light in this region of the screen

Time: 2355.48

and so on so we have sophisticated

Time: 2358.839

efficient ways of doing it but it all

Time: 2360.359

comes back to these basic things about

Time: 2362.76

what features in the visual World tend

Time: 2365.4

to cause a given cell to send a signal

Time: 2367.079

to the bra yeah that makes a lot of

Time: 2369.24

sense so you take essentially what you

Time: 2372.04

called random garbage um snow white

Time: 2375.88

black and gray pixels on a

Time: 2378.48

screen yep the retina views that and

Time: 2382.599

then the cells in the retina will

Time: 2384.4

respond every once in a while with an

Time: 2386.599

electrical potential they'll fire as we

Time: 2389.119

say spike it's sometimes called and then

Time: 2393.079

you take sort of a forensic

Time: 2395.4

approach a bit later you look back in

Time: 2397.76

time and you say you know what was the

Time: 2400.079

arrangement of pixels in this random

Time: 2403

garbage right before this

Time: 2405.48

cell fired an electrical potential

Time: 2408.04

that's right a spike and then from that

Time: 2410.839

you can reconstruct the preferred

Time: 2414.079

stimulus yeah right the you can say oh

Time: 2417.359

this cell and cells around it seem to

Time: 2421

like motion of things going in a

Time: 2423.44

particular direction for instance and um

Time: 2426.68

how do you know know that the cell

Time: 2428.64

doesn't also like a bunch of other stuff

Time: 2430.88

that you

Time: 2432.16

didn't pick up on using

Time: 2435.16

this random garbage yeah two things for

Time: 2437.92

let let me just say for the record we

Time: 2440.44

don't record from these cells that

Time: 2441.88

signal Motion in particular directions

Time: 2443.88

they are an elusive cell type that is

Time: 2446.28

best understood in rodents and other

Time: 2447.8

creatures and not well understood in the

Time: 2449.44

primate as you know although some people

Time: 2451.4

are discovering potential cells of that

Time: 2453.68

type now and have have recently

Time: 2455.72

discovered them okay so let's say cells

Time: 2457.319

that respond

Time: 2458.44

to like spots that are red um you know

Time: 2464.119

that go from dim red to bright red right

Time: 2467

yeah so we can go through that colored

Time: 2469.48

TV snow and pick out the cells that

Time: 2472.64

responded to a transition of the kind

Time: 2475.2

you described from darker to lighter or

Time: 2477.76

from Greener to redder or something like

Time: 2479.52

that cells tend to respond to

Time: 2481.28

Transitions in the visual scene rather

Time: 2482.96

than static

Time: 2484.4

imagery um and so we can pick that stuff

Time: 2487.119

out but you asked the question will G is

Time: 2488.96

the TV snow G to capture everything

Time: 2490.96

about what these cells are doing that's

Time: 2492.52

a really important question that I want

Time: 2493.839

to just mention more um quite likely not

Time: 2499.56

that's a scientific instrument it's an

Time: 2501.4

unbiased way to sample a whole bunch of

Time: 2503.44

cells you know first cut look at you

Time: 2506.4

know generally speaking what are they up

Time: 2508.16

to but that doesn't mean we've really

Time: 2510.359

captured their role in natural visual

Time: 2512.4

perception because actually you don't go

Time: 2514.52

through the World perceiving visual snow

Time: 2516.52

you go through the world perceiving

Time: 2517.92

objects and meals and mates and targets

Time: 2520.88

and all these things right so the study

Time: 2523.56

of how the retina responds to more

Time: 2525.68

naturalistic visual stimuli uh in my lab

Time: 2529.16

and in many La other labs around the

Time: 2530.88

world is really get getting off the

Time: 2533.16

ground now and I would say we have

Time: 2535.56

limited understanding um I would say we

Time: 2540

know that our simple laboratory

Time: 2542.68

experiments with the TV snow don't

Time: 2544.319

capture the whole story there's more

Time: 2546.599

there're about 20 different cell types

Time: 2548.079

in the retina we have basic

Time: 2549.64

characterizations of seven of them if

Time: 2552.44

you count a certain way um we know that

Time: 2555.68

there are another 15 or so lurking right

Time: 2558.8

behind the curtain that we've started to

Time: 2560.88

sample we don't know what naturalistic

Time: 2564

targets they respond to in the visual

Time: 2566.319

life of the animal that's work that's

Time: 2568.359

underway exciting interesting work

Time: 2570.319

because this we know that the r they got

Time: 2573.24

to be there for something one one way to

Time: 2575.88

think of it I'm I'm pretty sure you

Time: 2576.96

think think of it this way too is that

Time: 2578.28

the retina is a highly evolved organ

Time: 2581.44

with a lot of evolutionary pressure for

Time: 2583.52

it to be efficient to have a small optic

Time: 2585.96

nerve sending to the brain it's probably

Time: 2589.72

the case that there's no accidental

Time: 2591.28

stuff sitting around in the retina

Time: 2592.839

that's visal and sending information to

Time: 2594.48

the brain it's probably the case that

Time: 2596.079

this those signals are are all doing

Time: 2597.96

something important for our visual

Time: 2599.76

behavior for our well-being for our

Time: 2602

sleep all sorts of stuff and I think and

Time: 2605.44

the field is still trying to figure that

Time: 2606.68

out these these are the big Mysteries I

Time: 2608.839

think that in terms of the retina what

Time: 2611.24

are those signals exactly in all those

Time: 2612.88

different cell types what different

Time: 2614.319

behaviors and aspects of our life do

Time: 2616.88

they

Time: 2618.319

control what is the wildest cell type

Time: 2622.119

you've ever

Time: 2624.48

encountered like what did it do like

Time: 2626.72

what did it respond to that's that's

Time: 2628.24

what I mean when I say wildest um you

Time: 2630.72

know it cells reog gangling cells that

Time: 2633.2

respond to you know increasingly red

Time: 2636.52

portions of the visual scene or

Time: 2637.92

decreasingly green portions of the

Time: 2639.559

visual scene like okay cool that seems

Time: 2641.52

cool like get some you know around the

Time: 2644.04

time of Christmas that that's useful and

Time: 2645.96

it's uh useful on other days of the year

Time: 2648.04

as well but you know given that the

Time: 2652.16

retina is indeed the best understood

Time: 2654.359

piece of the brain and given that you

Time: 2656.92

have 20 cell types 20 isn't 20 million

Time: 2659.48

it's um you know it seems tractable

Time: 2662.16

probably gets understanding it in its

Time: 2664.2

entirety or understanding them in their

Time: 2666.64

entirety excuse me um one would like to

Time: 2669.8

know like what what stuff is are we

Time: 2672.48

paying attention to at the level of the

Time: 2673.96

retina I mean are there like Spiral

Time: 2676.68

sells it like Spiral stuff in the

Time: 2678.44

environment are there sells it like

Time: 2680.079

emojis like what what's going on in

Time: 2681.96

there you spent a lot of time doing this

Time: 2684.319

we do we SP a lot after all you give up

Time: 2686.079

two nights sleep which is kind of

Time: 2688.04

incredible by the way I'll just do a

Time: 2689.319

little uh take a moment here and just

Time: 2692

say you know for a guy that's been doing

Time: 2693.64

this for this long with these sleepless

Time: 2695

nights um you look pretty good you look

Time: 2696.599

pretty resty

Time: 2697.8

you I tend to go home I go home before

Time: 2700.319

The Graduate students do oh they stay up

Time: 2702.319

they stay up I was used to stay up I

Time: 2703.88

used to stay up until my mid 40s I was I

Time: 2706.079

was in there doing the all nighter type

Time: 2707.64

things got it and um maybe you can help

Time: 2709.72

me figure out my sleep patterns better

Time: 2711.48

yeah yeah we can talk about that this

Time: 2712.52

episode we talk about how to pull all

Time: 2713.839

nighters and still survive done plenty

Time: 2716.04

of those um but yeah like what's yeah

Time: 2719.28

lots at stake here there's a human

Time: 2721.04

retina you know meaning a human gave up

Time: 2723.599

their eyeballs to for this experiment

Time: 2726.119

after they died of

Time: 2727.76

you got many people this these are these

Time: 2729.88

sort of experiments um are very

Time: 2734.119

expensive um a lot of fancy equipment a

Time: 2736.4

lot of salaries to try and figure this

Time: 2738.04

stuff out this is the chief mission of

Time: 2739.4

the national eye institute there's a lot

Time: 2740.64

of tax dollars like this is um in my

Time: 2743.64

opinion as important as the Space

Time: 2745

Program probably more important in my

Time: 2747.319

opinion you know restoring Vision to the

Time: 2748.8

blind obviously so what are you finding

Time: 2751.68

in there yeah and and we have the

Time: 2753.319

privilege of being on the front lines of

Time: 2754.88

that funded by the National Institute

Time: 2756.4

and other in tions to be out there

Time: 2758.44

figuring out what's going on in this

Time: 2760.04

human retina I'm with you on that so I

Time: 2763.599

I'll tell you how we go B it these days

Time: 2765.72

there are about seven cell types that we

Time: 2767.52

understand pretty well what they're

Time: 2768.319

doing they're it's not they're not

Time: 2770.24

complicated they just have different

Time: 2771.559

properties color size this kind of thing

Time: 2773.76

temporal properties their timing of

Time: 2775.359

their signals and those seven cell types

Time: 2777.8

we understand pretty well but we're

Time: 2779

trying to really nail down the details

Time: 2780.72

why because of neuroengineering for

Time: 2782.319

vision

Time: 2783.839

restoration then there's another I'm

Time: 2786.24

going to say 15 or so and we and the

Time: 2788.839

anatomists the people who study the

Time: 2790.8

shapes and sizes of the cells have long

Time: 2793.88

known that there were more cell types

Time: 2795.44

lurking in the retinal circuitry but

Time: 2797.559

their function has not been known and

Time: 2800.68

because we didn't have many recordings

Time: 2802.24

from them we didn't have electrical

Time: 2803.52

recordings in response to light that

Time: 2805.68

would tell us what they naturally do

Time: 2808.28

we've actually had a breakthrough in the

Time: 2810.079

last few years led by a senior research

Time: 2812.4

in my in my lab named Alexander cing who

Time: 2816.48

has figured out that there's another 15

Time: 2819.359

or so cell types lurking in those

Time: 2821.4

recordings that if we look more

Time: 2822.559

carefully they're there and they have

Time: 2825.04

crazy properties and so the crazy

Time: 2827.359

properties I can tell you about have to

Time: 2829.64

do with the spatial region of the visual

Time: 2832.599

world that they respond to the

Time: 2834.599

well-known cell types that you know and

Time: 2836.559

I know from the textbooks kind of

Time: 2839

respond to a circular spot in the visual

Time: 2841.28

world if there's light in this little

Time: 2842.599

circular area they'll fire a spike if

Time: 2844.839

there's no light there they don't care

Time: 2848.079

well okay some cells is not quite

Time: 2850.28

circular some cells respond to the light

Time: 2852.72

that's there and and the difference from

Time: 2855.2

the light that's around it so if it's

Time: 2856.72

brighter than the light that's nearby

Time: 2858.319

then you then you get a big response the

Time: 2860.64

new cell types are more puzzling than

Time: 2863

that some of them respond to three or

Time: 2865.44

four blobs in the visual world that's

Time: 2867.8

kind of strange unexpected definitely

Time: 2870.88

unexpected based on the textbooks and

Time: 2873.4

the newest ones are weirder yet some of

Time: 2876.119

them they're their visual response

Time: 2878.359

profiles that is the region of the

Time: 2880.04

visual world that they are sensitive to

Time: 2881.839

light

Time: 2882.96

in almost has a spidery shape almost

Time: 2886.319

like the dendrites of a cell like the

Time: 2888.52

processes of a cell and some of them

Time: 2891.68

have Blobby Light sensitivity they're

Time: 2893.839

sensitive to to light increments here

Time: 2896.52

and decrements there and increments here

Time: 2898

and decrements there and some blue light

Time: 2899.68

over here and blue light over here we

Time: 2901.88

don't understand these cells to be clear

Time: 2904.8

the seven that we understand reasonably

Time: 2906.599

well well and not trying to just pin

Time: 2908

down and really nail for vision

Time: 2909.68

restoration the sort of first cut at at

Time: 2912.72

cell type specific Vision

Time: 2914.64

restoration those ones don't have these

Time: 2916.68

weird properties they're a little

Time: 2917.68

simpler to understand so we're we're

Time: 2919.599

just but we're just working out all the

Time: 2920.76

details of the timing of the of the

Time: 2922.359

responses and all that these new ones we

Time: 2924.319

don't know what's going on with them so

Time: 2925.68

we're doing experiments those seven cell

Time: 2927.8

types constitute maybe

Time: 2929.52

70% of all the neurons that send visual

Time: 2932.64

information from the eye to the brain so

Time: 2934.52

we think it's a really solid Target for

Time: 2936.799

Vision restoration to work with the

Time: 2938.24

simple

Time: 2939.079

ones and so so when I when I say that I

Time: 2942.04

think that the retina is the best

Time: 2943.119

understood circuit in the nervous system

Time: 2944.76

I'm talking about those seven cell types

Time: 2946.68

which we know a lot about what they do

Time: 2948.16

we really do know a lot it's not done

Time: 2949.76

but we know a lot I'm not talking about

Time: 2952.24

the other 15 cell types which are a

Time: 2954.24

minority of the population but seem to

Time: 2955.96

be doing very strange and surprising

Time: 2957.88

things that are yet to be determined so

Time: 2959.559

there it's a mix we know some really

Time: 2961.799

good stuff and then there's really some

Time: 2964

deep Mysteries out there about these

Time: 2965.4

other cell types so we've been talking a

Time: 2968

lot about how to understand the signals

Time: 2970

that the retina is sending the brain and

Time: 2972.839

I know your lab has done incredible work

Time: 2975.76

in this Arena and figured out a number

Time: 2977.76

of the different signals as you

Time: 2979.599

described some of the features that the

Time: 2982.079

different cell types are extracting just

Time: 2983.76

a moment ago these Blobs of different

Time: 2985.799

colors

Time: 2987.359

Etc what good is this to you know the

Time: 2991.28

everyday person right um What What In

Time: 2994.28

addition to wanting to understand how we

Time: 2995.76

see you know what sort of sorts of

Time: 2998.04

medical applications can this provide in

Time: 3000.16

terms of potentially restoring Vision to

Time: 3002.52

the blind um but perhaps even larger

Time: 3007.96

theme is this notion of neuroengineering

Time: 3011.44

right taking this information and

Time: 3013.16

creating devices that can help us help

Time: 3017.359

our nervous system function better maybe

Time: 3020.04

even function at superphysiological

Time: 3021.52

levels I know there's a lot of interest

Time: 3023.359

in this these days um in part due to

Time: 3026.28

neural link right because elon's out

Time: 3028.359

there front-facing very vocal about his

Time: 3030.799

vision of the no pun intended of you

Time: 3033.52

know chips being implanted in people's

Time: 3035.4

brains that would allow them to be in

Time: 3037.24

conversation with you know 100 people at

Time: 3038.96

the same time just by hearing those

Time: 3041.28

voices in the head maybe filtering

Time: 3042.68

things out so it doesn't sound like a

Time: 3043.92

clamor of a hundred different voices um

Time: 3047.359

perhaps giving people super memory I

Time: 3050

mean you know sky the limit no no one

Time: 3052.04

really knows where this is all headed

Time: 3053.559

you're working in what we call a very

Time: 3056.64

strain system where it has specific

Time: 3058.28

properties that you're trying to

Time: 3059.48

understand and once you understand those

Time: 3061.68

you can start to think about real

Time: 3064.04

applications of like what's possible

Time: 3066.119

like could you create a visual system

Time: 3068.04

that um Can extract more color features

Time: 3070.359

from the world that no other human can

Time: 3072.2

see um can you restore um pattern Vision

Time: 3075.52

to somebody who is essentially blind

Time: 3077.119

independent on a cane or a dog or you

Time: 3079.16

know God forbid can't even leave their

Time: 3080.76

house because they can't see anything at

Time: 3082.319

all you know where is this headed what

Time: 3084.72

is the information useful for and

Time: 3087.52

perhaps we should frame that first

Time: 3088.68

within the medical rehabilitative

Time: 3091.319

context of repairing uh or restoring

Time: 3093.64

Vision rather and then get into the more

Time: 3096.2

kind of um uh sci-fi type

Time: 3098.839

neuroengineering stuff absolutely yeah

Time: 3101.52

this this really is my passion these

Time: 3103.799

days turning that corner continuing to

Time: 3106.48

figure out the mysteries in the retina

Time: 3108.52

but also saying wait a second we

Time: 3109.96

actually know quite a lot about this

Time: 3111.799

shouldn't this be the first place that

Time: 3113.76

we can solve problems like restoring

Time: 3115.76

Vision restoring function or augmenting

Time: 3117.76

our function I think it should be the

Time: 3120.92

concept of how to do this is

Time: 3124.24

straightforward and not invented by us

Time: 3126.96

in any way and that is the following one

Time: 3130.079

of the major sources of blindness in uh

Time: 3134.359

the Western world is uh loss of the

Time: 3137.839

photo receptor cells that capture light

Time: 3140.079

macular degeneration and retinitis

Time: 3142.24

Pigmentosa are two well-known ailments

Time: 3145.48

that give rise to to vision loss and the

Time: 3148.799

vision loss is because the cells that

Time: 3151.04

capture light in the first place that we

Time: 3152.52

talked about earlier die off so you're

Time: 3155.359

no longer sensitive to light and then

Time: 3157.88

you're blind the concept is that you may

Time: 3160.64

be able to bypass those early sections

Time: 3163.04

of the retina that capture the light and

Time: 3164.839

process the signals and

Time: 3166.559

instead build an electronic implant that

Time: 3169.799

connects up directly to the retinal

Time: 3171.92

ganglin cells and this electronic

Time: 3173.88

implant would would do the following it

Time: 3175.92

would capture the light using a camera

Time: 3178.04

which is relatively easy it would

Time: 3180.319

process the visual information in a

Time: 3181.92

manner similar to the way that the

Time: 3183.64

retina normally does as similar as

Time: 3185.48

possible and then it would electrically

Time: 3187.72

activate the retinal gangin cells by

Time: 3189.359

passing current and causing the gangin

Time: 3191.599

cells to fire spikes and send those

Time: 3193.559

spikes to the brain and if we do this

Time: 3195.24

really well we can essentially replace

Time: 3197.96

those first two layers of the retina and

Time: 3199.839

piggy back onto the third layer and say

Time: 3201.72

okay we're just jumping right into that

Time: 3202.96

third layer we're going to force those

Time: 3204.92

ganglin cells to send reasonable visual

Time: 3206.96

signals to the brain and then the brain

Time: 3208.52

is going to think it got a natural

Time: 3210.52

visual signal and proceed accordingly

Time: 3212.96

that's the concept this is not our idea

Time: 3215.559

people have had this concept for decades

Time: 3217.96

and some people have even started to

Time: 3220.2

make it work in in human patients and

Time: 3222.88

what I mean by that is implanting

Time: 3224.64

electrodes on the retina stimulating and

Time: 3226.88

causing people who've been profoundly

Time: 3228.4

blind for decades to see visual

Time: 3231.319

sensation blobs and streaks of light in

Time: 3233.599

their visual world that that are

Time: 3235.28

reproducible so so that's happening now

Time: 3237.52

that's happened people who were at once

Time: 3239.68

blind yep are able to see objects are

Time: 3243.64

able to see crude blobs and flashes of

Time: 3246.76

light in ways that allow them to

Time: 3248.4

navigate their world better a little bit

Time: 3250.319

a little bit avoid a coffee table maybe

Time: 3253.48

or at least see a bright window in a

Time: 3255.319

dark wall and be able to point to that

Time: 3257.2

bright window or the bright doorway in a

Time: 3259

dark wall something like that so it's a

Time: 3260.559

glass half full half empty story that I

Time: 3262.48

want to turn that I'd like to turn

Time: 3264.559

attention to in this conversation cuz I

Time: 3266.359

I think it's very exciting um yes you

Time: 3269.799

can see stuff by artificially

Time: 3273.48

electrically stimulating the ganglin

Time: 3275

cells and you can see stuff that

Time: 3276.359

actually helps you interact with your

Time: 3277.64

world a tiny little bit so great that's

Time: 3281.559

the glass half full the glass half empty

Time: 3283.88

is it's nothing remotely resembling what

Time: 3286.88

we understand as naturalistic Vision

Time: 3289.64

where we see spine spatial detail and

Time: 3291.559

color and objects and can navigate

Time: 3293.4

complex environments and all that stuff

Time: 3295.04

no chance you can't do anything REM

Time: 3296.359

remotely like that you can see that

Time: 3298.079

there's a bright doorway over that way

Time: 3301.079

and turn toward it which is a helpful

Time: 3303.799

step in your Human Experience but

Time: 3306.28

there's a long way to go so the question

Time: 3308.64

is why does this existing technology

Time: 3312.359

fail to give us high quality Vision what

Time: 3315.4

what's needed to give us high quality

Time: 3317.559

vision and this is the piece I'm really

Time: 3319.76

passionate

Time: 3321.52

about it turns out that the the devices

Time: 3324.48

that have been implanted in humans so

Time: 3326.039

far by pioneering bioengineers who did

Time: 3329.4

really hard stuff were were fairly

Time: 3331.96

simple devices that treated the retina

Time: 3334.559

as if it's a camera that is just a grid

Time: 3336.68

of pixels and they put a grid of

Time: 3338.96

electrodes down there and they

Time: 3340.16

stimulated it according to the pixels in

Time: 3341.76

the visual world and thought well

Time: 3342.96

hopefully that will cause the retina to

Time: 3344.839

do the right thing and send a nice

Time: 3346.92

visual piece of visual information to

Time: 3349.039

the brain and initiate Vision

Time: 3351.48

Unfortunately they left the science on

Time: 3353.92

the table and this is actually what I'm

Time: 3357.16

dedicating the next phase of my career

Time: 3359.64

to bringing the science that we know

Time: 3362.92

that we talked about to the table for

Time: 3366.119

vision engineering and in particular the

Time: 3368.44

fact that there are there really are 20

Time: 3370.799

or so distinct cell types and they send

Time: 3373.359

different types of visual information to

Time: 3375.039

the different targets in the brain I

Time: 3377.079

like to think of them a little bit as uh

Time: 3379.4

an orchestra playing a symphony each

Time: 3381.88

different cell type has its particular

Time: 3383.559

score the violins do one thing the obos

Time: 3386.599

do something else it's a very organized

Time: 3389.359

signal coming out of the retina

Time: 3391.24

presenting to the brain this complex

Time: 3393.319

pattern of electrical activity that the

Time: 3394.559

brain assembles into our visual

Time: 3396.24

experience well current retinal implants

Time: 3399.28

unfortunately are too crude to do

Time: 3400.76

anything like that the the conductor has

Time: 3404.2

just scattered the sheet music

Time: 3405.88

everywhere and people are playing

Time: 3407.359

whatever it's cacophony okay you can

Time: 3410.52

maybe recognize a tune in there a little

Time: 3412.16

bit sometimes navigate toward a doorway

Time: 3415.359

but you're not going to get the full

Time: 3416.68

richness of the experience by ignoring

Time: 3418.839

the different cell types and I'm so

Time: 3421.4

passionate about this in part for

Time: 3423.359

reasons that a little bit are similar to

Time: 3425.319

your reasons for doing this kind of work

Time: 3427.28

that you do which I think is

Time: 3429.16

great which is I I feel we have a

Time: 3431.92

mission to give back as scientists to

Time: 3434.44

take all this stuff we've been talking

Time: 3435.799

about because we find it so interesting

Time: 3437.44

and

Time: 3438.24

cool and to deliver something to the

Time: 3440.72

society that has allowed us to explore

Time: 3443.76

these fascinating areas and in our case

Time: 3447.2

it's in my the case of my lab and what

Time: 3449.079

we've done it's to turn around and say

Time: 3451.079

wait a second we understand that there's

Time: 3452.72

these different cell types we understand

Time: 3454

a lot about what they do none of this

Time: 3456.4

information appears in current epir

Time: 3458.839

retinal implants can't we do better by

Time: 3462

using the science to restore Vision in a

Time: 3464.96

way that respects the circuitry of the

Time: 3467.24

retina that's what we're trying to do

Time: 3469.96

and the mismatch is intense um I I told

Time: 3475.559

you when we were adding

Time: 3477.359

before that nothing that we have learned

Time: 3480.64

about the retina since the founding of

Time: 3482.76

the national Eye Institute in

Time: 3485.359

1968 is incorporated into the existing

Time: 3489.359

retinal implants nothing we've learned a

Time: 3492.72

ton about the retina your research was

Time: 3494.599

funded by the national Eye Institute my

Time: 3496.119

research is funded by national ey

Time: 3497.319

Institute a fantastic organization that

Time: 3499.559

allows us to learn all these things how

Time: 3502.24

is this showing up in the

Time: 3503.2

neuroengineering to restore Vision to

Time: 3504.839

people well currently it's not

Time: 3506.76

and so we're trying to do that now doing

Time: 3508.64

that turns out to be hard and maybe

Time: 3511.16

we'll talk about that it's a it's a

Time: 3513.24

technological feat that's really

Time: 3514.839

challenging you have to build a device

Time: 3517.079

that you can implant in a human that can

Time: 3519.559

recognize the distinct cell types see

Time: 3522.44

where they are stimulate them separately

Time: 3525.24

from one another and conduct this

Time: 3528.079

Orchestra to create a musical score that

Time: 3532.559

reasonably closely resembles the natural

Time: 3534.68

one that's what we're all about doing

Time: 3537.319

and as it turns out and maybe we'll talk

Time: 3538.92

about that separately that mission of

Time: 3541.92

being able to restore the patterns of

Time: 3544.079

activity that the retina normally

Time: 3545.72

creates also has extremely exciting

Time: 3550.079

spin-offs in three directions one of

Time: 3552.96

them is understanding better how the

Time: 3554.319

brain puts the signals together that's

Time: 3556.92

research for the brain the second one is

Time: 3560.2

augmenting Vision creating novel types

Time: 3562.68

of visual Sensations that weren't

Time: 3564.16

possible before and maybe doing

Time: 3565.72

something along the Elon Musk lines of

Time: 3567.96

delivering more visual information than

Time: 3569.72

was ever

Time: 3570.76

possible and third figuring out how to

Time: 3573.28

interface to the brain more broadly

Time: 3575.359

because as you and I know the structure

Time: 3578.039

of the retina is very much

Time: 3579.96

representative of the structure of many

Time: 3581.559

brain areas and if we're going to figure

Time: 3583.28

out how to interface to the visual

Time: 3584.799

cortex we darn well bitter figure out

Time: 3586.839

how to interface to the retina first

Time: 3589.68

that's what we're all about doing in my

Time: 3591.16

lab these days is figuring out how to do

Time: 3593

that well that's a mixed science and

Time: 3596

engineering effort we've done about 15

Time: 3598.28

years of basic science on that how do we

Time: 3600.559

stimulate cells how do we recognize

Time: 3602.319

cells how are we going to build a device

Time: 3604.28

that does all this and talks to the

Time: 3606

cells in this way and I can go into lots

Time: 3607.48

of gory detail about it um but that's

Time: 3609.96

what we've been doing the basic research

Time: 3611.16

on and the last few years we've worked

Time: 3612.799

at Stanford with um fantastic Engineers

Time: 3615.52

from various disciplines electrical

Time: 3617.119

engineers material scientists others to

Time: 3620.24

figure out how to put together the

Time: 3621.559

pieces and build an implant that can do

Time: 3623.16

this in a living human so is the idea to

Time: 3626.24

build a robotic retina to build a a

Time: 3631.079

essentially an artificial retina that

Time: 3632.799

could be put into the eye of a blind

Time: 3634.4

person or even put into the eye of a

Time: 3636.4

sighted person that would fundamentally

Time: 3638.92

change their ability to see or in the

Time: 3641.2

latter case uh enhance their ability to

Time: 3644.2

extract things from the visual world

Time: 3646

that they would otherwise not be able to

Time: 3648.2

see like like seeing twice as far um

Time: 3651.359

getting you know hawk-like resolution of

Time: 3653.88

the visual World um yep or which that

Time: 3657.039

would be cool yep could be distracting

Time: 3659.76

yep like I'm not sure I want to see the

Time: 3661.88

the fine movements of a piece of paper

Time: 3663.68

in somebody's notebook from across a

Time: 3665.52

cafe as they flutter the pages um but

Time: 3668.16

you might want to for a moment there

Time: 3670.319

might be a moment when you want to and

Time: 3672.16

if you have an electronic device that

Time: 3673.64

you can control that you can dial in to

Time: 3676.119

sense different aspects of the visual

Time: 3677.68

World Under You Know by by your choice

Time: 3681.2

you might be like yeah that's pretty

Time: 3682.28

cool I want to be able to do that right

Time: 3683.44

now there's an example I like to give

Time: 3685.4

which I think maybe is is helpful for

Time: 3687.079

interpreting what we're talking about

Time: 3688.359

when we say being able to do more things

Time: 3690.72

with the optic nerve you gave the

Time: 3692.4

example of many voices and stuff here's

Time: 3694.28

an example that I like we know that we

Time: 3697.4

can drive down the road and have a phone

Time: 3700.039

call

Time: 3701.599

handsfree and do that quite safely

Time: 3704.799

pretty safely right and you're why

Time: 3707.44

because you're tapping in you've got two

Time: 3709.44

types of signals coming into your brain

Time: 3711.039

your visual signal of the cars on the

Time: 3712.52

freeway any one of which could kill you

Time: 3714.039

in an instant so it's

Time: 3716.799

important and the sound coming into your

Time: 3719.48

ears which carries the voice of your

Time: 3721.16

girlfriend that's telling who's telling

Time: 3722.96

you something that you're interested in

Time: 3724.359

hearing and these are different parts of

Time: 3726.52

the brain processing this information

Time: 3728.119

and so you can do both of these things

Time: 3729.279

at the same time because there's no

Time: 3730.359

interference one part of the brain is

Time: 3731.96

working doing one thing another part's

Time: 3733.279

doing something else you're good what

Time: 3735.319

you can't do is to read your texts and

Time: 3738.4

drive down the freeway at the same time

Time: 3740.279

that's not good because now that visual

Time: 3742.4

system of yours that needs to be

Time: 3743.64

detecting these fast moving dangerous

Time: 3745.2

objects is being distracted by looking

Time: 3747.24

at the text and you might die and some

Time: 3749.44

other people might die with you so I see

Time: 3751.24

a lot of people texting and

Time: 3752.96

driving yeah that's why I like to point

Time: 3755.359

out this example to remind people you

Time: 3757.16

can't do it well it's like it's like you

Time: 3758.92

can't do it well you probably talk yeah

Time: 3760.839

it used to be you know we'll just take a

Time: 3763.16

brief uh tangent here into this topic um

Time: 3766.4

a few years back there were there were a

Time: 3767.76

lot of news articles a lot of discussion

Time: 3769.76

about texting and driving a lot of

Time: 3771.64

attention to getting people to stop

Time: 3773.079

texting and

Time: 3774.279

driving I've seen a few people pulled

Time: 3776.52

over for texting and driving before but

Time: 3780.119

I would say texting and driving is

Time: 3782.119

rampant reading what's on one's phone y

Time: 3784.88

while driving is rampant yep all you

Time: 3787.24

have to do is be on the freeway here in

Time: 3788.599

Los Angeles look in the car next to you

Time: 3790.4

yep look where they're looking and

Time: 3792.319

people like reading and texting while

Time: 3794.4

driving presumably when they're doing

Time: 3795.88

that they're just using their peripheral

Time: 3797.2

vision to detect any kind of motion and

Time: 3799.76

um no doubt this has caused the deaths

Time: 3802.2

of many people yeah change lanes get

Time: 3804.52

away from them and you know just just

Time: 3806.52

like that other driver so so here's the

Time: 3808.96

thing um and this is this is uh I say

Time: 3811.96

this a bit tongue and cheek but it's

Time: 3813.52

it's sort of a real example it may be

Time: 3817.039

that if we harness the different cell

Time: 3818.72

types in the

Time: 3820.079

retina to deliver different visual

Time: 3822.559

information to different cell

Time: 3825.4

types like the image of the text on your

Time: 3829.119

screen to a certain cell type that you

Time: 3831.4

know the so-called

Time: 3833.079

cells or the motion of the objects in

Time: 3836.599

the visual scene the cars to a different

Time: 3839.24

cell type cells by the way folks

Time: 3841.599

because they're very very small yes and

Time: 3844.96

by named by anatomist decades ago so we

Time: 3847.2

carry that nomenclature forward sure um

Time: 3850.279

and the parasol cells which are

Time: 3851.839

different cells that you can potentially

Time: 3853.92

encode the movement of the cars in the

Time: 3856.24

parasol cells and if those two systems

Time: 3858.68

are operating independently which we

Time: 3860.24

sort of think they may be from research

Time: 3862.599

that you know very well from your

Time: 3863.96

extensive studies and vision

Time: 3866.52

um maybe we can do those two things

Time: 3869.16

safely at the same time now by the way

Time: 3870.76

that's not my research goal to text and

Time: 3872.4

drive at the same time just to be clear

Time: 3874.68

but it's a very tangible real world

Time: 3876.68

example of if we do really have parallel

Time: 3879.319

Pathways that can be modulated and

Time: 3881.119

controlled independently of one another

Time: 3883.599

this opens the door to streaming all

Time: 3886.24

kinds of visual information in parallel

Time: 3888.4

into our very high band with visual

Time: 3890.279

systems that wasn't possible during

Time: 3892

Evolution because we didn't have control

Time: 3894.039

over the cell types so I think of that

Time: 3897

as the world of visual augmentation and

Time: 3898.96

it starts to get interesting if the

Time: 3901.16

different cell types are behaving in an

Time: 3903.039

independent way and when they transmit

Time: 3905.079

visual information to the brain now how

Time: 3906.44

are we going to figure that out well we

Time: 3908.359

need a device that can stimulate the

Time: 3910.72

different cells independently and then

Time: 3913.279

study that to see whether people can and

Time: 3916.88

can do this kind of thing right what's

Time: 3919.4

that device the artificial retina the

Time: 3921.52

same implant I'm telling you about that

Time: 3922.88

can restore Vision to people because

Time: 3924.279

it's an electronic device that can up in

Time: 3926.24

the activity in the different cell types

Time: 3928.039

that same device is what we can use as a

Time: 3930.279

research instrument to understand if the

Time: 3931.92

different pathways are parallel if the

Time: 3933.96

signals interact with one another and

Time: 3936.119

explore how the brain receives that

Time: 3938.16

information and then we can use that to

Time: 3939.839

explore can we augment vision and allow

Time: 3943.359

allow ourselves to have new visual

Time: 3945.039

Sensations that we don't even know what

Time: 3946.279

that would look like we we we don't even

Time: 3948.359

understand what it would look like to us

Time: 3949.68

to see those Sensations but it might be

Time: 3951.24

able to deliver lots of information to

Time: 3953.24

our brain and if we can do all those

Time: 3955.72

those things then we can take that same

Time: 3959.039

set of tools and Engineering

Time: 3960.88

Technologies into the brain to access

Time: 3963.44

different cell types as well I'd like to

Time: 3965.52

just take a quick break and acknowledge

Time: 3967.2

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docomo here of of what you've done um

Time: 4039.039

you started off with the understanding

Time: 4041.92

that the neural retina is perhaps the

Time: 4044

best place to try and understand how the

Time: 4045.52

brain works because of its Arrangement

Time: 4047.319

the cell types Etc you spend a number of

Time: 4050.52

decades doing these wild experiments um

Time: 4053.92

on human retinas and other retinas um

Time: 4056.559

recording the different cell types with

Time: 4058.119

these high density What I Call Bed of

Time: 4059.64

nails two and a half decades I'm not

Time: 4061.4

that two and a half decades um it's your

Time: 4065.559

uh robustness that matters EJ um and you

Time: 4069.119

have plenty of it um you figure out what

Time: 4072.2

the cell types are so then you gained an

Time: 4074.52

understanding of how light is

Time: 4076.039

transformed into different types of

Time: 4077.44

electrical signals that encode different

Time: 4078.88

features in the visual scene then comes

Time: 4082.039

the challenge of developing

Time: 4084.119

neuroengineering tools to try and

Time: 4086.799

stimulate the specific cell types in a

Time: 4089.68

way that more or less mimics their

Time: 4092.039

normal patterns of activation like not

Time: 4093.92

um activating a huge piece of retina so

Time: 4096.199

that you know the cells that like

Time: 4097.719

increases in redness are also being

Time: 4100.159

stimulated with the cells that like you

Time: 4102

know edges in a way that would create

Time: 4103.4

some shoy like crazy representation of

Time: 4105.719

the outside world no you want the same

Time: 4108.279

Precision that light stimulation of

Time: 4111.12

these cells in the intact human eye

Time: 4113.799

provides in this explanted retina this

Time: 4117.799

retina on this bed of nails but then a

Time: 4120.4

device that essentially can mimic what

Time: 4122.64

the retina does and you needed to do all

Time: 4124.839

that earlier work understanding like

Time: 4127.04

what does the normal retina do what does

Time: 4128.56

the healthy retina do in order to try

Time: 4130.279

and develop this prosthetic device to

Time: 4132.159

either restore Vision

Time: 4133.92

or because it puts puts you in the

Time: 4135.839

position of being able to stimulate

Time: 4137

cells however you want in theory you

Time: 4139.08

could create a situation in a human

Time: 4141.56

where the cells that respond to um I

Time: 4145.679

don't know outlines of objects are are

Time: 4147.52

hyperactive so that you

Time: 4149.799

know the person could um effectively see

Time: 4153.44

objects in one's environment better than

Time: 4155.64

anyone else yeah could perceive I know

Time: 4158.279

motion is a tricky one but motion better

Time: 4160.4

than anyone else could see detail in the

Time: 4162.96

visual world that no one else could

Time: 4164.719

detect we're not talking about turning

Time: 4166.279

people into mantis shrimp um but the

Time: 4169.359

analogy works because mantis shrimp can

Time: 4171.679

see things that we can't and vice versa

Time: 4173.96

and so what you're talking about here is

Time: 4175.4

neural augmentation through the use of

Time: 4177.48

engineering yep and we often do talk

Time: 4180.08

about it as sci-fi because the Sci-Fi

Time: 4182.52

writers have been talking have been you

Time: 4184.159

know writing about this for decades it's

Time: 4186.239

not sci-fi anymore it's sigh it's

Time: 4188.319

straight up sigh right now it's really

Time: 4190.799

we just need to build the

Time: 4191.88

instrumentation and start working with

Time: 4193.88

those experiments to figure out how to

Time: 4195.159

make make it work I think we have a

Time: 4197.239

responsibility to do this because this

Time: 4200.84

is the way we take this kind of

Time: 4202.679

information all that's been learned

Time: 4204.719

about the visual system by the national

Time: 4206.88

Eye Institute since since 1968 and all

Time: 4209.52

the people that it's funded to do this

Time: 4211.04

research and turn the corner and make a

Time: 4213.199

difference for Humanity with it and I I

Time: 4217.52

assume and think that Humanity will be

Time: 4220.88

leveraging nervous system knowledge to

Time: 4222.679

build all sorts of devices that we can

Time: 4224.84

interface to the world with I think you

Time: 4228.159

know I don't know Elon Musk but I think

Time: 4229.64

he's right about that that that's where

Time: 4231.32

we're

Time: 4232.36

headed it should be done well it's

Time: 4235.32

important to do it well um we will

Time: 4237.96

hopefully be more connected to truth in

Time: 4240.76

the world if we're able to build devices

Time: 4242.92

that give us better Sensations more

Time: 4244.64

acute understanding of what's going on

Time: 4246.44

out there better abilities to make

Time: 4248.8

decisions and all that let alone just

Time: 4250.6

see stuff so that Frontier of developing

Time: 4254.56

Technologies to allow our brains and our

Time: 4257.239

visual systems initially and then other

Time: 4258.719

parts of our brains to do things better

Time: 4261.44

is unbelievably exciting it is SciFi but

Time: 4266.08

I just want to emphasize I think it's

Time: 4268.04

the responsible way to go to think about

Time: 4271.6

how to do that well all technologies

Time: 4274.199

that we develop can be used for good or

Time: 4276.64

for ill and I'm sure some of your

Time: 4278.92

listeners who are a lot a lot of very

Time: 4280.719

passionate thinking people out there

Time: 4282.6

thinking about neuroscience and the

Time: 4283.84

implications worry what does this mean

Time: 4285.92

we're going to be introducing electronic

Time: 4287.52

circuits in our brains to do stuff yeah

Time: 4289.84

well we will it's pretty much clear that

Time: 4292.48

Humanity will do that and

Time: 4295.4

so in any technology development you

Time: 4297.679

have to think about well how do you do

Time: 4298.719

it well how do you do it for good there

Time: 4301.32

there are popular movies right now about

Time: 4303.04

technology development such as

Time: 4304.76

understanding the structure of the

Time: 4306.52

atom and that technology development can

Time: 4309.199

be used for good or for ill to blow up

Time: 4311.96

cities or to save

Time: 4314.239

civilizations how's it going to go well

Time: 4316.84

I think I think as scientists we're

Time: 4318.719

responsible for advancing that in a

Time: 4321.84

thoughtful and meaningful way I think we

Time: 4325.199

can do this in the retina it is the

Time: 4327.28

place to start it's the and you know you

Time: 4329.76

I'm curious what you think actually as a

Time: 4331.36

scientist your background is in this

Time: 4333.12

field or very close field to mine I know

Time: 4335.88

you speak with all sorts of scientists

Time: 4337.56

on this podcast um but this is pretty

Time: 4340.44

much your field or very close not the

Time: 4341.88

neuroengineering part but understanding

Time: 4343.48

the retina I'm curious if you agree that

Time: 4346.08

this is the place to start doing this

Time: 4347.719

stuff the first guest ever asked me a

Time: 4349.6

question on this podcast during a guest

Time: 4351.92

interview um I think this would be a fun

Time: 4354.32

place to both answer and Riff on this a

Time: 4356.639

little bit because um first of all I

Time: 4360.44

think the retina is absolutely the place

Time: 4362.639

to start because we understand so much

Time: 4364.52

of what it does what the cell types are

Time: 4367.199

but maybe by comparison a different

Time: 4369.36

brain region the hippocampus which is

Time: 4371.239

involved in the formation of memories

Time: 4373.4

and other stuff but formation of

Time: 4374.76

memories about what one did the previous

Time: 4377.239

day what one did many years ago Etc is

Time: 4380.4

an area that I think anytime the

Time: 4382.28

conversation about neural Prosthetics or

Time: 4384.04

neuroengineering or neuro augmentation

Time: 4385.88

comes up people think oh wouldn't to be

Time: 4387.52

cool to have like a little stimulating

Time: 4389.159

device in the hippocampus and then if I

Time: 4391.44

want to remember a bunch of information

Time: 4393.84

from a page or from a a lecture I just

Time: 4396.719

stimulate and then voila all the

Time: 4398.84

information is batched in there um while

Time: 4401.76

that's an attractive idea I think it's

Time: 4404.679

worth pointing out right now that sure

Time: 4407.84

there is a pretty decent understanding

Time: 4410.08

of the different cell types in terms of

Time: 4411.6

their shapes some of their electrical

Time: 4413.679

properties of the hippocampus but there

Time: 4415.96

is in no way shape or form the depth of

Time: 4419.639

understanding about the hippocampus and

Time: 4420.92

what the individual cell types do and

Time: 4422.4

what the different layers of it do that

Time: 4424.92

one has for the neural retina so what

Time: 4427.08

we're really saying is if you stimulate

Time: 4428.6

the hippocampus you'll likely get an

Time: 4431.48

effect but it's unclear what the effect

Time: 4433.56

is and it's not clear how to stimulate

Time: 4435.719

that's to me the best reason to focus on

Time: 4438.12

the retina because you know what the

Time: 4439.32

cell types are thanks to the work of

Time: 4441

your laboratory and many other

Time: 4442

Laboratories you know what sorts of

Time: 4443.76

stimulation matter and it provides the

Time: 4446.88

perfect test bed for this whole business

Time: 4449.04

of neuro augmentation neuro neuroeng

Time: 4450.679

engineering I think there's also a

Time: 4452.4

bigger discussion to just frame this in

Time: 4454.52

which is so much of what we discuss on

Time: 4456.84

this podcast with guests and in Solo

Time: 4459.199

episodes relates to things like dopamine

Time: 4461.36

neur neuromodulator serotonin and

Time: 4463.08

everyone is interested in these things

Time: 4464.76

because they can profoundly change the

Time: 4466.84

way that we perceive and interact with

Time: 4468.32

the world but one only has to look to

Time: 4470.8

the various Pharmaceuticals that

Time: 4472.159

increase or decrease these

Time: 4473.56

neuromodulators and know that indeed

Time: 4475.92

those Pharmaceuticals can be immensely

Time: 4477.56

beneficial to certain individuals I want

Time: 4479.52

to be clear about that but that whatever

Time: 4481.92

quote unquote side effects one sees or

Time: 4483.6

lack of effect over time is because

Time: 4486.36

those receptors are like everywhere over

Time: 4488.08

the around the brain so you can't just

Time: 4490.199

increase dopamine in the brain and

Time: 4492.28

expect to only get one specific desired

Time: 4494.159

effect yes so the reason you're here

Time: 4496.32

today um is not because we both worked

Time: 4499.08

on the retina and it's not because we

Time: 4500.32

happen to also be friends it's because

Time: 4502.44

uh to my mind your laboratory represents

Time: 4505.04

the um Apex of precision in terms of

Time: 4509.28

trying to figure out what a given piece

Time: 4511.719

of the brain in your case the neuro

Time: 4514

retina does parse all its different

Time: 4517.8

components and then use that knowledge

Time: 4519.96

to create a real world technology that

Time: 4522.28

can actually tickle and probe and um

Time: 4525.44

stimulate that piece of the brain in a

Time: 4527.239

way that's meaningful right not just

Time: 4529.32

like sending electrical activity in and

Time: 4532.199

that to me is so important I think if we

Time: 4534.32

were going to think about levels of

Time: 4535.8

specificity for manipulating the human

Time: 4538

brain to get it an effect you would say

Time: 4541.679

okay crudest would be drugs take a drug

Time: 4545.719

increases serotonin which might bind to

Time: 4547.52

particular receptors let's take the drug

Time: 4549.12

psilocybin a lot of excitement about

Time: 4550.4

psilocybin we know that can lead to

Time: 4552.44

increased connectivity between different

Time: 4554.48

brain Reg at rest there's probably there

Time: 4556.639

is some demonstrated clinical benefit

Time: 4558.6

there's also some potential hazards but

Time: 4560.6

it's very broad scale we don't know

Time: 4563.199

what's happening when the person is

Time: 4564.6

thinking about a uh you know a piece of

Time: 4566.84

moss expanding into an image and a

Time: 4569.04

memory of their childhood or it's like a

Time: 4572

million different things are happening

Time: 4573.4

there and then at the other far extreme

Time: 4575.239

is the kind of experiment that you're

Time: 4576.52

talking about stimulating one known type

Time: 4579.6

of retinal

Time: 4580.84

cell seeing what that means for visual

Time: 4583.48

processing or modeling what that means

Time: 4584.92

means for visual processing and then

Time: 4586.6

building a device that can do exactly

Time: 4588.08

that and then maybe ramp it up 20% 50%

Time: 4591.48

and because I think that represents the

Time: 4593.6

first step into okay how would you

Time: 4596.52

stimulate the hippocampus to create a

Time: 4598.52

super memory would you stimulate a

Time: 4601.44

particular cell type in a particular way

Time: 4603.32

and to my knowledge There's You know

Time: 4605.48

despite the immense excitement

Time: 4608.4

about the hippocampus and understandably

Time: 4611.04

so there just isn't that precision and

Time: 4614.04

of understanding yet so uh forgive the

Time: 4616.6

long answer but you know you ask me a

Time: 4618.28

question on on this podcast give a long

Time: 4620.84

answer yeah and it specificity is what

Time: 4623.04

you're talking about and we need

Time: 4625.04

technology to do that to to modulate

Time: 4627.84

neural circuits in a highly specific way

Time: 4629.76

we got to start with the piece of the

Time: 4631.159

neural circuit we understand best and we

Time: 4632.8

have best access to that's the retina

Time: 4634.36

it's sitting right there on the surface

Time: 4635.679

we can get right into it and in install

Time: 4638.679

devices we know so much about it that's

Time: 4640.96

the place to start the place that we

Time: 4642.679

understand build Electronics that is

Time: 4645.96

that is adaptive that senses what

Time: 4649.12

circuit it's embedded in and responds

Time: 4651.679

appropriately it's not just Electronics

Time: 4653.44

you stick in there and it does something

Time: 4655

and that's it no it it first figures out

Time: 4657.56

who it's talking to and then learns to

Time: 4659.719

speak the language of the nearb neural

Time: 4661.4

circuitry so a smart device smart device

Time: 4664.44

let's push on that a little bit so

Time: 4666.96

um put a little chip onto the retina

Time: 4669.639

that can stimulate specific cell types

Time: 4671.8

is there a way that it can use AI

Time: 4674.96

machine learning that it can learn

Time: 4677.719

something about the tissue it happens to

Time: 4679.239

be in contact absolutely in the simplest

Time: 4681.199

possible way the device Works in three

Time: 4683.28

simple Steps step number one record

Time: 4686.36

electrical activity which is what we do

Time: 4687.92

in our lab in a room full of equipment

Time: 4689.76

but this is a 2mm size chip implanted in

Time: 4691.8

your eye record the electrical activity

Time: 4694

just recognize what cells are there when

Time: 4696.12

they're firing what electrical

Time: 4697.88

properties they have to identify the

Time: 4699.719

cells and cell types in this specific

Time: 4701.8

circuit in this human that's step one

Time: 4704.04

step two stimulate and record so you

Time: 4707.44

figure out oh this electrode activates

Time: 4709.76

cell number 14 with 50% probability this

Time: 4713.04

electrode activates cell number 12 if

Time: 4715.199

you pass a micro amp of current with

Time: 4717.04

this probability and so on you make a

Time: 4718.44

big table that tells you how these

Time: 4720.8

electrodes talk to these cells in your

Time: 4722.96

circuit that's step two calibrate the

Time: 4725.44

stimulation by stimulation and recording

Time: 4728

then finally when you have a visual

Time: 4730.56

image and you want to represent it in

Time: 4732.88

the pattern of activity of these cells

Time: 4735.56

you say okay I know from Decades of

Time: 4738.08

basic science what these cells ought to

Time: 4740.04

be doing with this image that's coming

Time: 4741.8

in I know exactly what they ought to be

Time: 4743.12

doing that's what the science has been

Time: 4744.239

telling us we've been studying the

Time: 4745.239

neural code for decades to understand

Time: 4747.04

this I know what they should do use my

Time: 4750.12

device with my calibration where I know

Time: 4751.76

where the cells are I know how the

Time: 4752.84

electrodes talk to them and bing bing

Time: 4754.12

bing bing bing activate them in the

Time: 4755.56

correct sequence that's what I think of

Time: 4758.08

as a smart device a device that records

Time: 4760.96

stimulates and records and then finally

Time: 4762.88

stimulates yes AI is part of that of

Time: 4765.48

course it is because this is a very

Time: 4767.44

complex uh transformation if you will

Time: 4770.48

from the external visual world to the

Time: 4772.04

patterns of activity of these cells it's

Time: 4773.92

not easy to write down in just a few

Time: 4775.239

lines of code or in a few equations it's

Time: 4777.76

complicated and AI is really helpful for

Time: 4780.12

that and learning by stimulating and

Time: 4782.84

recording and aggregating information

Time: 4784.76

quickly so that you can then use the

Time: 4786.159

device that's absolutely a part of the

Time: 4787.48

engineering it let me be clear the AI

Time: 4789.88

doesn't help us to understand it's just

Time: 4792.48

an engineering tool that helps us to

Time: 4795.08

capture what this thing normally does

Time: 4797.8

and then go ahead and execute and make

Time: 4799.52

it do the thing it should normally

Time: 4802.04

do I hope people um will appreciate this

Time: 4805.48

example uh perhaps not you know not but

Time: 4809.08

goodness I don't know 40 50 years ago

Time: 4811.04

but still today uh one treatment for

Time: 4813.719

depression is electric shock therapy uh

Time: 4816.36

a very you know on the face of it

Time: 4819

barbaric um treatment but effective in

Time: 4822.239

certain conditions it's still used for a

Time: 4824.04

reason um but it can appear barbaric

Time: 4826.88

right you know people are have like a

Time: 4828.32

bite you know a bite device you know so

Time: 4831.639

they don't um bite through their tongue

Time: 4832.88

or their lips they're you know they're

Time: 4834.639

strapped down and they stimulate the

Time: 4836.159

whole just like stimulate all neurons in

Time: 4839.12

the brain essentially there's a huge

Time: 4841

dump of neurotransmitters and

Time: 4842.239

neuromodulators it's like drugs it's

Time: 4844

completely non-specific stimulation

Time: 4846

effectively probably even less specific

Time: 4848.159

than drugs maybe and yet the clinical

Time: 4851.48

outcomes from electric shock therapy in

Time: 4853.56

some cases are pretty impressive like

Time: 4855.96

people um the brain is quote unquote

Time: 4858.08

reset they still remember who they are

Time: 4860.8

um but presumably through the the the

Time: 4864.76

release of neuromodulators like dopamine

Time: 4866.679

serotonin acetylcholine in a very

Time: 4868.159

non-specific way there has been some

Time: 4871.84

symptom relief in some cases what you're

Time: 4874.4

talking about is really the opposite

Time: 4876

extreme um you know before I said

Time: 4878.12

Pharmaceuticals that tickle a particular

Time: 4879.88

neurom modulator pathway would be the

Time: 4881.4

opposite extreme I think electric shock

Time: 4882.92

therapy is probably the the the most um

Time: 4885.88

extreme where is this whole business of

Time: 4888.44

neural prosthesis going outside of the

Time: 4891.52

visual system like right now um I can

Time: 4894.199

imagine that there are little

Time: 4895.679

stimulators in the spinal cord for sake

Time: 4898.92

of restoring movement to paralyze people

Time: 4901.719

um I realize this is not your field but

Time: 4903.239

is are you seeing impressive stuff there

Time: 4906.159

um or is it still really really early

Time: 4908.199

days there's absolutely impressive stuff

Time: 4911.199

uh particularly uh for example people

Time: 4913.199

reading out signal

Time: 4915.04

from the motor cortex or the language

Time: 4917.96

cortex in order to help people to

Time: 4920.44

communicate or to move cursors on

Time: 4922.679

screens in order to interact with

Time: 4924.36

devices these are paralyzed people par

Time: 4926.56

yeah excuse me paralyzed people who

Time: 4927.88

can't interact with technology the way

Time: 4929.48

that we do um and but with their

Time: 4931.92

thoughts can send signals through an

Time: 4935.56

electronic device that can be used to

Time: 4937.96

control a mouse on a screen and have

Time: 4939.88

them connect to the internet that's a

Time: 4941.6

huge deal to be able to have people do

Time: 4943.36

that imagine how life changing would be

Time: 4945.12

to be able to communicate if you

Time: 4946.719

couldn't before so there are wonderful

Time: 4948.679

examples of that you know of them so do

Time: 4951.36

I the work of Krishna shanoy and Jamie

Time: 4953.679

Henderson at Stanford is one beautiful

Time: 4955.719

example over the recent years Eddie

Time: 4957.679

Chang doing stuff now uh you know

Time: 4959.8

neuralink doing doing this kind of stuff

Time: 4962.12

the built on the work of Shino and

Time: 4964.08

Henderson and stuff so that's great um

Time: 4967.48

you know stimulating in spinal circuits

Time: 4971.199

as you said for creating rhythmic

Time: 4972.679

movements that's that's happening

Time: 4975.159

so this is an enormous space and in each

Time: 4978

case what you said I think is really

Time: 4979.92

highly relevant that electroshock

Time: 4982.08

therapy you can think of that as look

Time: 4983.92

let's say your computer is not behaving

Time: 4985.679

right you can reboot it might work then

Time: 4990.32

it'll start not working again then you

Time: 4992.52

have to reboot it again well how often

Time: 4993.84

do you want to reboot your computer it

Time: 4995.159

gets a little inconvenient to be

Time: 4996.159

rebooting your computer every five

Time: 4997.52

minutes maybe you want to go in and

Time: 4999.08

actually diagnose this thing and put in

Time: 5000.639

a piece of software that fixes the thing

Time: 5002.84

that was going wrong instead of

Time: 5004.8

rebooting your computer every 5 minutes

Time: 5006.52

right and I think of electric shock

Time: 5008

therapy a little bit as a reboot um it's

Time: 5010.199

that level so we want to intervene more

Time: 5011.76

specifically how do you do that well you

Time: 5013.48

have to understand the software in order

Time: 5015.199

to do that you have to have specificity

Time: 5017.4

controlling this thing in your computer

Time: 5019.4

not this this this this or this this

Time: 5021.56

particular thing that's going wrong you

Time: 5023.28

got to interfere with that and change it

Time: 5025.719

and modulate it well that's what

Time: 5027.159

understanding the neural circuit is

Time: 5028.239

about that's what building specific

Time: 5029.88

Hardware that can activate specific

Time: 5031.4

cells is

Time: 5033.08

about that's in in the case of the

Time: 5035.36

retina again it's just so obvious that

Time: 5039

it's right in front of us to do this

Time: 5040.96

stuff and it's right in front of us to

Time: 5043

take us into augmentation to giving us

Time: 5045.88

better senses a fun example I like this

Time: 5048.199

is it's an interesting topic because the

Time: 5050.44

National Institutes of Health that um

Time: 5053.239

funds a lot of research that goes in

Time: 5055.88

this direction tends to not be

Time: 5058.36

interested in augmenting our senses they

Time: 5061.84

kind of want to they they draw a line

Time: 5063.639

more or less at saying look we're trying

Time: 5065.36

to restore what we were as humans not

Time: 5068.639

create a new kind of

Time: 5070.44

human and that's an interesting question

Time: 5073.6

because I don't think there is a fine

Time: 5075.199

there's an actual line a bright line

Time: 5077.36

between those things I don't think

Time: 5078.679

there's a bright line between those two

Time: 5081.76

things the the finest example I know is

Time: 5085.119

that even in the very crudest visual

Time: 5088

restoration devices you have to actively

Time: 5091.32

suppress the infrared sensitivity of

Time: 5093.639

your camera

Time: 5094.96

to not have infrared vision why because

Time: 5098.04

many cameras are sensitive to infrared

Time: 5099.679

light so in other words if you don't put

Time: 5101.8

an infrared filter in front of your

Time: 5103.44

camera you're going to have some

Time: 5104.679

infrared vision maybe it won't help you

Time: 5106.28

very much whatever I'm just trying to

Time: 5107.679

say as soon as you start building

Time: 5109.8

devices to restore Sensations building

Time: 5111.88

electronic devices augmentation is right

Time: 5114.52

around the corner it'll creep up on you

Time: 5116.119

real fast so I I think you you can't

Time: 5118.56

even really draw a

Time: 5121.119

line throughout today's discussion we've

Time: 5124.48

been thinking of the brain as kind of a

Time: 5127.08

the rest of the brain I should say

Time: 5128.44

because the neural retina is two pieces

Time: 5130.199

of the brain extruded out into the eye

Time: 5132.119

Globes during development I like to

Time: 5133.96

remind people of that over and over when

Time: 5135.52

you're looking at somebody's eyes you

Time: 5136.679

are looking at two pieces of their brain

Time: 5139.159

um so no debate about that but most

Time: 5141.719

people don't realize that you'll never

Time: 5144.04

look at anyone the same way again but

Time: 5145.8

this is the reason why you can tell so

Time: 5147.52

much about people's inner state from

Time: 5149.08

their from their eyes somebody who's

Time: 5150.56

sleep deprived it's not just about the

Time: 5152.08

droopiness of their eyelids or the

Time: 5153.6

circles under their eyes there's a

Time: 5155.239

there's an aliveness to the eyes the the

Time: 5157.32

yogis um talk about um people that sort

Time: 5162.04

of show up at the level of their eyes as

Time: 5164.32

opposed to sunk back into their brain

Time: 5167.48

you know these are very um kind of

Time: 5169.6

abstract Concepts but they and there's

Time: 5171.28

some very non-abstract stuff these days

Time: 5173.08

looking at looking through the eye at

Time: 5174.56

the retina the way the op

Time: 5175.719

opthalmologists do and there's a lot of

Time: 5177.679

diagnostic capability just in those

Time: 5179.4

images of the rtina oh right there I'm

Time: 5181.48

glad you brought this up there's um some

Time: 5183.96

uh interesting and increasing evidence

Time: 5185.8

that looking at the neural retina

Time: 5187.76

because it is a piece of the brain with

Time: 5189.199

neurons that have the potential to both

Time: 5190.88

Thrive or degenerate that looking at the

Time: 5193.4

neural retina which one can do with

Time: 5194.76

these new technologies um can provide a

Time: 5196.92

window into um whether or not there are

Time: 5199.52

forms of degeneration such as

Time: 5201.44

Alzheimer's and other forms of neurod

Time: 5203.639

degeneration deeper within the brain

Time: 5205.84

that one can't image directly because of

Time: 5208.08

the the thick opacity of the skull right

Time: 5210.96

so in other words Imaging the eye in

Time: 5212.4

order to determine if someone is

Time: 5213.88

developing in Alzheimer's because you

Time: 5215.28

have a direct view into a little piece

Time: 5216.679

of the brain it's a it's a good signal

Time: 5219.36

it can help you figure stuff out about

Time: 5220.88

what's going on in your brain even

Time: 5222.159

beyond the sunken eyes

Time: 5224.159

absolutely amazing so I think the rest

Time: 5228.639

of the brain piece is is also really

Time: 5230.44

interesting and maybe here we can go

Time: 5232.08

like semi neuro philosophical um you

Time: 5235.6

know that there are clearly parts of the

Time: 5237.76

brain that are involved in um essential

Time: 5240.08

what I call housekeeping functions

Time: 5241.4

regulating respiration you know keeping

Time: 5243.36

us breathing keeping our heartbeating um

Time: 5245.56

digestion um responding to threats in in

Time: 5248.52

some sort of basic way like through the

Time: 5250.28

secretion of adrenaline and and giving

Time: 5252.44

us the potential to move but a lot of

Time: 5253.88

the brain is is um capable of plasticity

Time: 5257.52

and um one wonders if you were to for

Time: 5260.84

instance develop a retinal

Time: 5263.119

prosthesis that would allow me to um see

Time: 5267.48

with twice the level of detail that I

Time: 5269.76

currently can would my adult brain be

Time: 5272.96

capable of dealing with that information

Time: 5274.56

we're talking about twice as much

Time: 5276.239

information coming in same brain tissue

Time: 5280.199

on the receiving end can it make sense

Time: 5282.44

of it do we have any idea if it can make

Time: 5284.199

sense of it are there um are there

Time: 5285.96

experiments that speak to that yeah

Time: 5287.56

that's a fantastic and interesting

Time: 5289.96

question it makes you think about neural

Time: 5291.56

development all over again right and I I

Time: 5293.56

take some inspiration on that from the

Time: 5295.92

work of someone you know Eric nson um

Time: 5299.159

who discovered that there is plasticity

Time: 5302.92

beyond the period periods of time he

Time: 5305.679

discovered many wonderful things but

Time: 5307.159

there's plasticity well beyond the

Time: 5308.88

period of time that we thought that

Time: 5310.119

there was plasticity in certain animals

Time: 5311.8

and in particular that if you make

Time: 5313.199

gradual adjustments to the sensory world

Time: 5317.119

you can exhibit plasticity that you

Time: 5320.08

can't see if you make an Abrupt

Time: 5322.36

adjustment so plasticity is there it

Time: 5326.96

just has to be brought on by more subtle

Time: 5330.32

manipulations that take you from A to B

Time: 5332.28

in little incremental steps and if you

Time: 5334.119

take those incremental steps you can see

Time: 5336.32

the adult

Time: 5337.32

plasticity so coming to your

Time: 5340.76

question is the brain capable of

Time: 5343.52

receiving the kind of extra information

Time: 5345.76

we provided could be that if we just

Time: 5347.719

show up on day one bam try to deliver

Time: 5350.28

twice the visual resolution or whatever

Time: 5352.119

in your visual your visual

Time: 5353.92

system it could be that if we try to

Time: 5355.92

deliver twice the visual resolution on

Time: 5358.52

day one it won't work you'll see It'll

Time: 5361.96

you know it won't look sensible to you

Time: 5364.28

but if we gradually introduce it by the

Time: 5366.76

way that we're dialing up the resolution

Time: 5369.679

we may be able to get there and there

Time: 5371.36

are fascinating studies to be done you

Time: 5373.36

think about Spike timing dependent

Time: 5375.239

plasticity a term that that your viewers

Time: 5377.199

may not all know but is a is related to

Time: 5380.48

how neurons adjust their strength of

Time: 5382.88

connectivity to one another according to

Time: 5385.239

the timing of the signals in those cells

Time: 5387.84

mechanisms like that tell us wow the

Time: 5389.48

brain really cares about the very

Time: 5391.88

precise timing of stuff and to the

Time: 5394.08

degree that that influences the way that

Time: 5395.639

neurons do or don't strengthen their

Time: 5397.6

connections to one another it's so

Time: 5399.44

fundamental in everything from memory to

Time: 5401.52

visual function what have you this

Time: 5403.08

relates to fire together wire together

Time: 5405.28

although um it highlights the Together

Time: 5408.08

part how closely in time do two neurons

Time: 5410.239

need to be active in order for them to

Time: 5412.76

subsequently increase their connectivity

Time: 5415.36

and indeed one of them needs to be

Time: 5416.639

active a little bit before the other one

Time: 5418.52

in order for it to work optimally right

Time: 5420.88

so if it what I what I Envision is that

Time: 5424

when we have full control of the neural

Time: 5425.639

code with an electronic implant that can

Time: 5427.08

talk to the cells and do all the things

Time: 5428.199

that I said and we can really control

Time: 5429.88

the neural code coming out of the retina

Time: 5432.159

we can then start to play games and dial

Time: 5433.88

up that neural code very slowly and

Time: 5436.44

teach the remaining brain how to

Time: 5439.76

understand these signals not introduce

Time: 5441.88

some crazy thing from day one no just

Time: 5444.639

gradually teach isn't that how we do

Time: 5447.119

everything well isn't that how

Time: 5448.36

plasticity

Time: 5449.88

works I love the uh subtlety and the uh

Time: 5454.04

rationality of your example because you

Time: 5456.04

know so much of what we see in the

Time: 5457.84

internet and on the news is like you

Time: 5459.88

know chips inserted into the brain to

Time: 5461.8

create super memory or uh you know

Time: 5463.96

conversations between you know 50 people

Time: 5466.159

at the same time without anyone speaking

Time: 5468.239

you know just hearing other people's

Time: 5469.52

Thoughts by way of um you know neural

Time: 5472.04

signals being passed from one to the

Time: 5473.56

next but yet another reason why you're

Time: 5475.32

here today is because you represent the

Time: 5477.76

the the realistic grounded um

Time: 5482.48

incremental approach to really parsing

Time: 5485.199

this whole thing of how the brain works

Time: 5487.119

and how one then goes about um

Time: 5490.44

engineering devices to augment the human

Time: 5492.32

brain and as you just pointed out it's

Time: 5494.159

not going to be done by just sticking

Time: 5495.92

electrodes in and stimulating and seeing

Time: 5497.639

what happens in fact those experiments

Time: 5498.92

were done in the 1960s people like

Time: 5500.6

Robert Heath would put electrodes into

Time: 5502.199

the brain during neur surgery stimulate

Time: 5503.719

and just see what the patient would do

Time: 5505.08

or what they reported thinking you know

Time: 5507

nowadays that's done still but with a

Time: 5509.119

lot more precision and intention and

Time: 5511.199

we've moved we've moved far beyond that

Time: 5514

by the way I just want to say those were

Time: 5515.28

important first experiments the first

Time: 5516.96

thing got to do Keith was was was a

Time: 5518.679

rather um let's be honest not not the

Time: 5521.92

most Savory character he he embarked on

Time: 5523.92

some experiments that um had a social

Time: 5525.96

agenda to them and was a pretty pretty

Time: 5528

uh at least by my read was was not the

Time: 5530.199

kind of person I'd want to spend time

Time: 5531.44

with to say the least but but you're

Time: 5533.28

right those experiments were critical

Time: 5535.719

because like electric shock therapy like

Time: 5538.52

the formulation of drugs that can

Time: 5540.32

massively increase certain neurom

Time: 5541.679

modulators or decrease them they LED to

Time: 5544.44

some level crude but some level of

Time: 5546.84

understanding about how the brain works

Time: 5548.52

which is what we're really talking about

Time: 5549.719

today yep um but you represent the uh as

Time: 5552.92

I said the the astronauts of this

Time: 5555.36

astronauts don't go into space and just

Time: 5557

kind of blast off and see where they end

Time: 5558.76

up there's a there's there's math

Time: 5561.159

there's physics uh there's computer

Time: 5564.239

science sensors cameras right looking

Time: 5566.76

where are we about to land here on the

Time: 5568.679

moon is there a crater here or not what

Time: 5571.92

what's around us we we should sense

Time: 5574.32

what's there and then make our decisions

Time: 5575.92

accordingly and our electronic implants

Time: 5578.08

in the brain really we should make them

Time: 5580.4

smart why make them dumb we're smarter

Time: 5582.76

than that we can build implants that can

Time: 5584.719

sense what's around them and change

Time: 5586.639

their patterns of activity

Time: 5588.44

accordingly I I use a metaphor sometimes

Time: 5590.88

if you go to if you go as an American

Time: 5592.52

who doesn't speak Chinese to China and

Time: 5595.719

you start yelling in English maybe

Time: 5598.159

somebody will to to learn which way to

Time: 5600.36

go on the street somebody might

Time: 5602.52

understand you at some point and help

Time: 5603.96

you out but it's going to be a it's

Time: 5605.56

going to be a you know not very

Time: 5607.44

effective way to get around it's way

Time: 5608.96

better if you speak the language you

Time: 5610.32

talk to people and ask ask them where to

Time: 5612.04

go so that's what we need to know we

Time: 5614.76

need to say look we have the science we

Time: 5617.52

have incredible devices we can engineer

Time: 5619.159

we have ai now that even helps us to do

Time: 5621.76

this query of the outside world and turn

Time: 5623.88

it into a smarter instrument make our

Time: 5626.119

instruments smart make them so they know

Time: 5629.08

how to talk to the brain don't expect

Time: 5631

that the brain is just going to wrap

Time: 5632.28

itself around your your simple

Time: 5634.199

electronic device no make a smart device

Time: 5636.639

that's what we want to make a smart

Time: 5637.92

rental

Time: 5639.719

implant maybe we could just take a

Time: 5642

couple of minutes and talk a little bit

Time: 5644.119

about you and the some of the things

Time: 5646.96

that have led to your choice to go in

Time: 5649.639

this direction

Time: 5651.44

so did you always know you want to be a

Time: 5653.719

neuroscientist from the time you started

Time: 5655.52

college what was your trajectory I

Time: 5657.08

should know this but I you were an

Time: 5659.28

undergraduate at at Princeton at

Time: 5661.239

Princeton that right studying math math

Time: 5664.719

so you could have just done all your

Time: 5665.96

work with a piece of paper and a pen but

Time: 5667.48

you had to try and engineer all these

Time: 5669.44

electrodes okay that's a pen and paper

Time: 5672

pen I took a very random route I studied

Time: 5675.199

math as an undergrad I spent a few years

Time: 5677.6

running around playing music and

Time: 5679.199

traveling living a Bohemian life well

Time: 5681.159

tell me more about that oh it was I

Time: 5683.52

basically just told you all I'm going to

Time: 5685

tell following the Grateful Dead no not

Time: 5688.4

quite following them but uh it was that

Time: 5690.88

was an important part of the story um

Time: 5693

and important part of your personal

Time: 5694.92

development um yes very much so uh free

Time: 5699.36

Expression Dance music creative

Time: 5702.76

exploratory music all that kind of stuff

Time: 5705.6

such a contrast to the the EJ that comes

Time: 5709.08

forward when we're talking about the

Time: 5710.239

Precision of neural stimulation in in

Time: 5712.159

the in specific retinal cell types but I

Time: 5714.56

think it's useful for people to hear

Time: 5715.92

both young and old like um that uh one's

Time: 5719.32

nervous system can be partitioned into

Time: 5721.239

these different abilities like go and

Time: 5722.719

dance and travel and you you weren't

Time: 5724.56

doing anything academic at that at that

Time: 5726.119

time no for a few years I wasn't doing

Time: 5727.36

that programming computers to make a to

Time: 5729.199

make a living and uh then I started I

Time: 5732.32

started three different PHD programs at

Time: 5734.4

Stanford before I simultaneously no no

Time: 5736.6

no in sequence I started in the math PhD

Time: 5739.199

program I learned that was not really

Time: 5740.52

for me and I started in a in an

Time: 5743.679

economics PhD program in the business

Time: 5745.199

school there and I realized after after

Time: 5747.679

less than a year that was not for me um

Time: 5750.44

I worked in a startup company for a

Time: 5751.88

while I did a lot of stuff for a few

Time: 5753.32

years and it took some settling um but

Time: 5757.44

then I decided to go into nurse science

Time: 5760.6

and there were a couple formative things

Time: 5762.92

one is that I had I had gotten a really

Time: 5764.96

formative experience as an undergraduate

Time: 5767.159

from a wonderful guy called Don ready

Time: 5768.88

who taught a introductory Neuroscience

Time: 5770.56

course who was really inspiring Mentor

Time: 5773.679

um and then when I when I was at

Time: 5776.44

Stanford I met Brian wandell my PhD

Time: 5779

adviser and I was inspired by him I

Time: 5781.96

thought I didn't know why he was

Time: 5783.6

studying what he was studying but I just

Time: 5785

knew I wanted to learn from this man and

Time: 5786.84

I wanted to study with him I just knew

Time: 5789.28

this was this was the person who should

Time: 5790.8

be my mentor based on something about

Time: 5792.04

him yes C can I ask you about these

Time: 5794.36

three PHD programs because I think

Time: 5796.08

people here um you know or or see what

Time: 5799.56

you're doing and and probably imagine a

Time: 5802.239

very linear trajectory but now I'm

Time: 5804.159

hearing you you like tour it around

Time: 5806.04

playing music then you start a PhD

Time: 5808.28

program nope then another one nope then

Time: 5811.04

another one without getting into all the

Time: 5812.639

details I mean were there nights spent

Time: 5815.119

lying awake thinking like what am I

Time: 5816.28

going to do with my life or did you have

Time: 5817.679

the sense that you knew you wanted to do

Time: 5820.08

something important you just hadn't

Time: 5821.28

found the right fit for you like how how

Time: 5823.52

much anxiety on a scale of 1 to 10 10

Time: 5825.56

being total panic um did you experience

Time: 5827.96

at at the Apex of your anxiety in that

Time: 5830.08

kind of wandering am I allowed to go

Time: 5831.56

above 10 like turning up the amp to 11

Time: 5834.32

sure I just think it's really important

Time: 5836.04

for people to hear whether or not they

Time: 5837.199

want to be scientists or not this idea

Time: 5838.719

that people that are doing important

Time: 5840.32

things in the world uh in my view um um

Time: 5844.36

rarely if ever understood that that's

Time: 5846.96

the thing that they were going to be

Time: 5847.88

doing there was some wandering about

Time: 5849.639

that sure seems like it doesn't it yeah

Time: 5851.639

I I I experien the same when I talk to

Time: 5853.4

other people and it seems like that and

Time: 5854.92

for sure for me uh it just took a while

Time: 5857.44

of trying different things to see number

Time: 5859.28

one what I was really good at and where

Time: 5862.92

I felt I could make a difference and it

Time: 5866.52

and I realized um I studied math and I

Time: 5869.719

was okay at math but I know I I have

Time: 5873.56

known mathematicians who are really

Time: 5875.08

talented gifted mathematicians the one

Time: 5876.84

who really make a difference I wasn't

Time: 5878.36

going to be one of those people likewise

Time: 5880.719

playing music I don't have that

Time: 5882.08

intrinsic Talent it's fun I can play

Time: 5883.88

songs in front of people and do stuff I

Time: 5885.8

like it and stuff like that but I don't

Time: 5888.28

have that kind of talent in fact I'll

Time: 5890.04

say something that that I say to friends

Time: 5892.679

sometimes and you're a good friend of

Time: 5893.8

mine if I had the talent to get a few th

Time: 5898

people on their feet dancing by playing

Time: 5899.96

music I'd probably just do that really

Time: 5903.199

as long as we've been friends I knew

Time: 5904.8

none of this I like knew none of this

Time: 5907.04

mostly because I think we always end up

Time: 5908.48

talking about Neuroscience or other

Time: 5911

aspects of our life um but I I didn't

Time: 5914.08

know I I know I know a great many things

Time: 5916.159

about you but I had no idea it's so

Time: 5918

interesting um do you still do dance we

Time: 5920.52

had Eric Jarvis on the podcast by the

Time: 5922.239

way Professor Rockefeller who studies um

Time: 5925.48

at one point was studying um uh Speech

Time: 5929.96

in so in Birds um and song in Birds and

Time: 5933.639

then he's done a great many other things

Time: 5935.56

now in genetics of of vocalization and

Time: 5937.92

you know he actually uh danced with or

Time: 5941.159

was um about to dance with the Alvin ay

Time: 5944.239

Dance Company it's like a really really

Time: 5945.92

talented dancer um uh and so you know

Time: 5949.84

dance seems to be like a theme that

Time: 5951.199

comes up among the Neuroscience guests

Time: 5952.76

on this podcast do you still dance yeah

Time: 5954.84

I love to dance I'm a free form dancer I

Time: 5956.52

don't I'm not a skilled dancer but I

Time: 5958.119

love I love music I love dancing I think

Time: 5959.96

it's part of the human spirit I someday

Time: 5961.84

will understand the Neuroscience behind

Time: 5963.159

dancing Dan in right dancing is a

Time: 5964.48

universal human thing in all cultures

Time: 5966.52

what is this dancing thing why do we do

Time: 5968.32

this and other creatures don't well

Time: 5969.92

Jarvis thinks that um perhaps it's one

Time: 5972.96

of the more uh early forms of language

Time: 5975.639

and that song came before spoken

Time: 5978.639

language it's sort of interesting that

Time: 5981.08

birds that um can actually recreate

Time: 5985.119

human speech oftentimes have the ability

Time: 5987.52

to dance as well oh wow um and and so

Time: 5990.639

there's some commonality of circuitry

Time: 5992.36

there we'll provide a link to that

Time: 5994.44

episode jar really I would love to hear

Time: 5996.679

that I mean I but if I may I just I'd

Time: 5999.239

like to Riff on that in a different in a

Time: 6000.56

different way um I did spend some time

Time: 6002.8

wandering around as many people do um

Time: 6005.719

and I think particularly for your young

Time: 6007.44

listeners and viewers who don't know wow

Time: 6010

you know could I ever be a scientist and

Time: 6011.92

develop new things stuff like that yes

Time: 6013.56

you can and if you're messing around

Time: 6015.28

your life trying this trying that trying

Time: 6016.8

the other thing definitely stick with it

Time: 6020

keep looking for the thing that works

Time: 6021.36

for you I I really deep believe that you

Time: 6024.28

got to play around you got to find what

Time: 6026.239

it is that works for you interestingly

Time: 6028.52

enough at least it's interesting for me

Time: 6031.679

I I spent a lot of years studying the

Time: 6034.239

retina in a pure basic science just

Time: 6036.96

curiosity driven research way as you and

Time: 6040.36

I have both done in the

Time: 6042.239

past

Time: 6043.84

um and as it turned

Time: 6046.84

out I learned all the stuff I needed to

Time: 6050.239

know about the retina to do to develop a

Time: 6054.84

high fidelity adaptive retinal implant

Time: 6056.88

of the type that I'm talking about in

Time: 6058.719

that process the technology the

Time: 6060.239

stimulation recording figure out the

Time: 6061.679

cell types how do you stimulate all

Time: 6063.08

stuff I learned all that stuff and I

Time: 6066.639

have come to a point in my life where I

Time: 6068.159

realize wow if somebody's going to do

Time: 6071.52

what I think needs to be done which is

Time: 6073.4

to take everything we've learned about

Time: 6074.88

the retina and instantiate that in in

Time: 6077.96

smart technology that can restore vision

Time: 6079.92

and do all the things we've been talking

Time: 6081.92

about who who are the people in the

Time: 6084.44

world who have the right training and

Time: 6086.159

background and knowhow to do that stuff

Time: 6090.239

I I'm one of them I I know that and it's

Time: 6093.08

totally by chance that I picked up and

Time: 6095.36

learned or it seems by chance that I

Time: 6097

picked up and learned the things that I

Time: 6098.32

need to know for this so but but I'm I

Time: 6101.56

definitely have the right knoow to do

Time: 6103.36

this based on all my training and the

Time: 6104.76

research that I've done and it feels

Time: 6106.28

accidental sometimes I look back on my

Time: 6108.08

own history I'm like how did I get here

Time: 6110.44

where this is obviously the thing I need

Time: 6111.96

to do was this this on purpose it didn't

Time: 6115.159

seem like it was on purpose but now I

Time: 6117.599

got to do this because I know what needs

Time: 6119.48

to be done and it's something that needs

Time: 6120.719

to be done so that's that's my mission

Time: 6123.199

for the you know coming decade or so

Time: 6125.92

wild I I mean I knew you had this

Time: 6127.88

engineer matthy uh geeky Neuroscience I

Time: 6131.36

don't want to say geeky cuz I'm well

Time: 6132.88

because it makes it sound like I'm not

Time: 6134

right there in the same same uh raft

Time: 6136.199

with you but but I didn't know about

Time: 6138.88

this more free-spirited um move in all

Time: 6141.44

directions depending on what one feels

Time: 6143.239

the moment dancing uh EJ it's very cool

Time: 6147

um are you still a a absolute level 11

Time: 6150.52

coffee snob yes okay yeah I used to go

Time: 6153.56

to meetings and um EJ would bring his

Time: 6156.199

own coffee maker and coffee to to

Time: 6158.4

meetings we're not talking about an

Time: 6159.96

espresso machine we're talking about

Time: 6161.679

like extreme levels of coffee snobbery

Time: 6164.48

press pot the correct ground coffee

Time: 6166.76

correct kind of press byot good good

Time: 6168.44

good I I expect nothing less uh proof

Time: 6170.96

that um not all circuits in the brain

Time: 6172.56

are neurop plastic nor should they be

Time: 6174.679

that's right but to bridge off of that

Time: 6177.639

in a more serious way um despite the the

Time: 6181.76

free you know free exploration aspect to

Time: 6185.76

yourself and and that hopefully other

Time: 6188.32

people don't suppress um it seems like

Time: 6190.48

you you really are um good at develop

Time: 6194.96

like knowing your taste like it seems

Time: 6197.199

like the the I think it was the great

Time: 6199.08

Marcus Meister a colleague of ours who

Time: 6201.4

you know has also worked on the neural

Time: 6202.679

retina extensively of course once said

Time: 6204.719

you know that there's a coding system in

Time: 6207.199

the brain that leads to either the

Time: 6209.4

perception the the feeling of um yum

Time: 6213.32

yuck or me and that so much of life is

Time: 6216.44

being able to register that in terms of

Time: 6219.08

who you interact with and how and um the

Time: 6221.599

the choices of problems to work on it

Time: 6223.239

seems like you have a very keen sense of

Time: 6225.599

of like yes that and you move toward

Time: 6227.96

that you've always been very goal

Time: 6230.119

directed um since the time I've known

Time: 6232.199

you so and and you've picked such a a a

Time: 6235.679

huge problem but going about it in in

Time: 6238.52

such a precise way hence the the analogy

Time: 6241.08

to the space space mission so um like

Time: 6245.56

when you experience that um may ask is

Time: 6248.599

it does it come about as like a thought

Time: 6250.719

like oh yeah that has to be the thing or

Time: 6252.159

is it like a whole body sensation what a

Time: 6254.239

great question I love that question I

Time: 6256.199

have two things to say to that the first

Time: 6258.52

is that for me it's all it's all

Time: 6261.88

feeling I I don't make hardly any

Time: 6265.28

decisions out of thoughts I think I

Time: 6268.719

process I put it all into the hopper and

Time: 6271.76

the hopper comes out and spits out a

Time: 6273.32

feeling and feeling's like yeah that's

Time: 6274.88

the thing to do 100% And I know not

Time: 6278.56

everybody's like me lots of people

Time: 6279.76

aren't like me and particularly lots of

Time: 6281.52

scientists aren't like me that you know

Time: 6283.8

so but but I definitely roll that way

Time: 6285.679

that is absolutely how I work there's

Time: 6288.199

there's something that's related to that

Time: 6289.639

that I think is you know philosophically

Time: 6292.48

in terms of personal development and

Time: 6294.199

Spiritual Development stuff I think is

Time: 6296.08

quite relevant that I think you'll

Time: 6297.52

you'll relate to my favorite aphorism is

Time: 6301.119

know

Time: 6302.159

thyself the

Time: 6304.52

Oracle and I I think because if you

Time: 6308.599

don't know yourself you can't do

Time: 6311.52

anything you don't even know where to go

Time: 6314

you can't even you know Orient yourself

Time: 6316.28

at the next thing in your life and I

Time: 6319.56

think it deserves to have um two Aries

Time: 6323.8

that go with it or

Time: 6326.679

aenda uh know thyself be thyself which

Time: 6331

is not easy it's not easy to really be

Time: 6333.08

yourself in this world there are all

Time: 6334.88

sorts of things telling us to be

Time: 6336.639

something other than what we

Time: 6338.52

are and the third one is love

Time: 6341.36

thyself and it's you know having gone

Time: 6345.08

through

Time: 6346.56

much exploration of yourself and your

Time: 6349.44

life and your values and my and me too

Time: 6351.639

and all the things we've talked about

Time: 6353

over time that's not easy some of us are

Time: 6355.8

not necessarily programmed to love

Time: 6357.679

ourselves and uh it's a

Time: 6360.76

skill I and I really I try my best to be

Time: 6365.44

with those three things all the time

Time: 6367.28

know thyself be thyself love thyself

Time: 6371.04

could you elaborate a little bit more on

Time: 6372.48

your process for the third I this is a

Time: 6374.84

concept that um has been very

Time: 6377.04

challenging for for me and I think for

Time: 6379.239

many other people um and it gets um

Time: 6384.199

kind of opaque when it starts getting

Time: 6387.199

complete with like self-respect and and

Time: 6389.639

Etc like like loving thyself do you have

Time: 6392.48

practices um do you meditate um do you

Time: 6396.119

Journal do you spend time um trying to

Time: 6399

cultivate a love for self yeah yeah I'm

Time: 6403.239

I meditate in an informal way in the

Time: 6405.159

morning with my coffee every morning I

Time: 6407.88

make a fantastic cup of coffee and I sit

Time: 6411.159

with it I believe you for five or 10

Time: 6413.159

minutes and take in my world as it's

Time: 6415.239

coming toward me and start to be as I as

Time: 6418.199

I come into the day and come into

Time: 6419.56

Consciousness I I I meditate like that

Time: 6422.84

and I have a aanga related yoga practice

Time: 6426.119

many of you many of your viewers and

Time: 6428.44

listeners will know about Ashtanga Yoga

Time: 6430.159

it's a very physical spiritual

Time: 6432.76

traditional yoga practice that has a

Time: 6435.96

deep meditative and breath Focus

Time: 6437.679

component I know you've had lots of

Time: 6439

episodes and discussion about the breath

Time: 6440.639

and the importance of that for awareness

Time: 6443.8

um you know at the end of a of many

Time: 6447

Western Yoga practices you end with

Time: 6449.239

Namaste which is expressing your respect

Time: 6452.159

and for the connectedness of what is in

Time: 6455.28

front of you to the whole universe and

Time: 6458.28

what's common to all of us and

Time: 6460.599

everything and I usually practice yoga

Time: 6463.28

by myself and when I say namaste at the

Time: 6465.28

end of my yoga practice a part of that

Time: 6468.239

is to myself earlier when I asked you

Time: 6471.32

about how you guide your decisions you

Time: 6474.36

said it's all feel and you provided a

Time: 6477.8

beautiful description as to how and why

Time: 6480

that occurs for you and your trust in

Time: 6483.639

that I don't recall you saying whether

Time: 6486.44

or not the feeling is in your head or

Time: 6488.52

it's a whole body feeling does it have a

Time: 6490.48

particular signature to it that you'd be

Time: 6491.96

willing to share is it excitement that

Time: 6493.92

makes you want to get up and move or is

Time: 6495.32

it a a Stillness I think I I ask because

Time: 6499.28

we've been talking throughout today's

Time: 6500.719

episode about you know the Precision of

Time: 6502.36

neural coding and these signals that are

Time: 6504.04

at the level of individual cells and And

Time: 6506

yet when it comes to feeling we actually

Time: 6508.44

have a a pretty crude map and certainly

Time: 6512.44

a deficit in language to explain what

Time: 6514.719

this feeling thing is and I I know that

Time: 6516.76

people experience life and feelings

Time: 6518.8

differently but I think it's often

Time: 6521.32

insightful when somebody uh with your

Time: 6524.52

understanding of the nervous system and

Time: 6526.44

yourself can share a bit like what does

Time: 6528.679

it feel

Time: 6530.119

like I love that question and it relates

Time: 6533.92

to something you said to me years

Time: 6536.36

ago uh what it feels

Time: 6539.32

like uh is

Time: 6541.96

ease and I remember years ago when we

Time: 6544.4

were talking about challenging things

Time: 6545.8

that each of us was facing in our lives

Time: 6547.32

you said to me something like I I wish

Time: 6549.88

for you some ease with all of this it

Time: 6552.679

was very um moving touching as that's

Time: 6556.96

what a good friend does is to give that

Time: 6558.599

to somebody to who they love and um um

Time: 6564.159

and it sticks with me probably 10 years

Time: 6566.719

later so

Time: 6569.88

um the feeling I feel when I'm on the

Time: 6573.599

path that makes sense for me is ease

Time: 6576.44

it's there's just nothing it's just okay

Time: 6580.679

this is

Time: 6582.48

it I love that I don't actually recall

Time: 6585.48

that specific conversation because we

Time: 6587.159

had many many conversations sitting in

Time: 6588.92

your yard in San Diego on those plastic

Time: 6591.719

chairs with your

Time: 6593.159

um with my Bulldog Costello hanging out

Time: 6596.04

by the way folks EJ knew Costello my

Time: 6598.239

Bulldog Master very well and he was not

Time: 6602.36

a huge fan of dogs prior to meeting

Time: 6604.52

Costello but um Costello flipped him he

Time: 6607.639

he became a at least a Costello lover I

Time: 6609.679

love Costello I'll never forget him yeah

Time: 6612.08

he embodied

Time: 6613.88

ease he did nothing but sleep and eat uh

Time: 6618.04

he he embodied um energetic efficiency

Time: 6621.44

and everybody loves him everybody who

Time: 6623.04

gets to be in the same room with him

Time: 6624.48

loves him the people I just spoke to in

Time: 6626.88

your setup here your colleagues you know

Time: 6629.48

yeah I could see why and you have a

Time: 6631.239

beautiful photo of him hanging there

Time: 6632.92

yeah yeah he's a what a creature a great

Time: 6635

great memory definitely embedded in my

Time: 6636.88

nervousness I often choke up when I

Time: 6638.56

think about but I I want to be clear

Time: 6640.04

because I've already cried once about

Time: 6641.32

him on a different podcast I don't want

Time: 6643.04

to do that today they're not tears of

Time: 6644.88

sadness it's this crazy thing like I

Time: 6646.719

love him so much I just kind of want to

Time: 6648.28

explode so damn it costell got me again

Time: 6652.04

and publicly again so he's someplace

Time: 6654.88

laughing so I I love that um and I think

Time: 6659.36

if um if I made you know do you think

Time: 6662.88

it's worth kids and adults learning to

Time: 6665.719

recognize those those kind of States

Time: 6668.44

those signals that tell them they're on

Time: 6670.079

the right path by paying attention

Time: 6672.719

to I don't know this like like we said

Time: 6674.84

there's sort of a deficit of language

Time: 6676.079

like EAS is in the body eases in the

Time: 6678.04

mind it's the release of I mean you know

Time: 6680.119

it's not even worth exploring verbally

Time: 6681.679

because it's a is such a whole body

Time: 6684.679

whole nervous system thing yeah I I I

Time: 6688.48

feel like I I actually was thinking

Time: 6690.84

about I was giving advice to a young

Time: 6692.679

fellow who uh is applying to graduate

Time: 6695.88

school recently and had a zoom call with

Time: 6699.679

him about stuff and he had received some

Time: 6701.639

good advice from some other people and

Time: 6703.56

then I gave him some advice and I saw

Time: 6707.4

him and speak and emote and with body l

Time: 6712.599

language drop into like oh yeah that

Time: 6714.84

makes sense yeah that that feeling of

Time: 6718.599

course kind of the of course and I think

Time: 6722.4

if you can teach people to do that I

Time: 6724.44

don't know if the verbal communication

Time: 6726.159

of that is going to like you said is

Time: 6727.44

that going to do anything but can you at

Time: 6729.719

least observe it in them as a teacher as

Time: 6732.4

a mentor and do things and when you know

Time: 6736.239

when you've done it because you see them

Time: 6737.76

drop into ease do you think you can

Time: 6739.48

detect ease in people by looking at them

Time: 6741.599

and seeing their body body language and

Time: 6743.199

everything it's it's got to be an

Time: 6744.84

amalgum of different things that the

Time: 6746.28

Cadence of their breathing their pupil

Time: 6748.28

size it's not worth dissecting this is

Time: 6750.04

an experiment I would not want to run

Time: 6752.159

yes right I wouldn't want to bring

Time: 6753.28

people into a laboratory and figure out

Time: 6755.32

you know what pupil of the eye Dynamics

Time: 6758.48

combined with certain rhythms of

Time: 6759.719

breathing relaxation of the shoulders

Time: 6761.28

because it's too beautiful for that is

Time: 6762.56

it's too beautiful and it's it's too

Time: 6763.96

nuanced and um it's different when we're

Time: 6766

in Motion versus when we're lying down

Time: 6768.56

it's like I mean science is capable of a

Time: 6771.159

great many things but I don't think

Time: 6772.76

needs to be pointed at every aspect of

Time: 6775.84

Human Experience I think they um some of

Time: 6778.36

these things are are simply worth

Time: 6780.159

allowing to just be do you feel the same

Time: 6782.88

way about when you when you have a

Time: 6783.88

feeling about a person you meet somebody

Time: 6786.639

and their energy just captures you it's

Time: 6788.76

like wow what a cool person what what

Time: 6792.36

amazing energy do you want to know the

Time: 6794.52

science behind that I don't no I don't I

Time: 6797.239

think the the word that comes to mind

Time: 6798.679

when I experience somebody like that or

Time: 6801.52

something like a animal or you see

Time: 6804.119

something the movement of something or a

Time: 6805.88

beautiful piece of music or something is

Time: 6808.199

uh the word just

Time: 6810.32

behold yeah I just want to stop and and

Time: 6812.96

take in as much of it as possible and

Time: 6814.88

here's something I know you've done but

Time: 6816.4

I'm checking to make sure I really got

Time: 6818.239

this right because I've done it too

Time: 6820.719

because we sometimes get human retinas

Time: 6822.36

for doing our experiments the first

Time: 6824.079

thing that happens when we get the human

Time: 6825.28

retina we bring it back to our lab it's

Time: 6826.599

a big production everybody's getting

Time: 6827.92

ready to go a whole bunch of moving

Time: 6829.84

Parts going on we have to open up the

Time: 6831.8

eye and look into it to see what

Time: 6834.599

condition it's in and it's typically on

Time: 6836.88

with a dissecting scope on a chair and

Time: 6839.4

it's open sitting on a chair dissecting

Time: 6841.079

scope looking down look into the

Time: 6843.079

eye it is so beautiful it it's

Time: 6848.239

breathtaking each time I've looked at

Time: 6850.119

the retina I don't know how many times

Time: 6852

each time wow this is what's

Time: 6855.4

initiating all the visual experiences

Time: 6857.48

I've ever had in my life or that person

Time: 6860.48

ever had in their life right and the

Time: 6862.679

beauty just keeps coming I love it and I

Time: 6866.84

love it because you're talking

Time: 6869.52

about a behold moment that isn't just to

Time: 6874.199

entertain your curiosity sure it's that

Time: 6876.52

you want to understand how the brain

Time: 6877.88

works um but also a behold moment that

Time: 6881.639

leads from that desire to understand to

Time: 6884.76

a deep level of understanding now after

Time: 6887.28

you know more than two decades of

Time: 6888.96

exploration to a mission in service to

Time: 6891.76

humanity restore Vision to the blind

Time: 6894.4

develop neuroprosthesis and other types

Time: 6896.679

of neuroengineering technologies that

Time: 6898.679

will allow the human brain to function

Time: 6901.04

better than it would otherwise so

Time: 6902.84

there's real purpose there too so it uh

Time: 6905.4

represents kind of a perfect ecosystem

Time: 6907.679

of it's not just about delighting in

Time: 6910.28

something and and um and spending one's

Time: 6912.96

time there there's a real there's a real

Time: 6915.48

Mission there so um I love

Time: 6920.96

it well EJ Dr

Time: 6924.4

cheski uh Dr huberman I rarely get

Time: 6927.88

called that these days um when I invited

Time: 6931.76

you here today I was absolutely sure

Time: 6933.88

that uh our listeners and viewers were

Time: 6935.96

going to get a absolutely worldclass

Time: 6938.88

explanation of how the nervous system

Time: 6940.52

works and the the retina and the visual

Time: 6942.679

system in particular and um that it

Time: 6945.56

would be delivered with the utmost

Time: 6947.4

Clarity which it was so thank you I know

Time: 6950

there's been so much learning in and

Time: 6951.44

around that and you beautifully framed

Time: 6953.639

for us what that means in terms of the

Time: 6955.719

larger understanding of how the nervous

Time: 6957.239

system works and what you and other

Time: 6960.119

Laboratories are now in a position to

Time: 6961.599

really do with that information and the

Time: 6964.079

technologies that are being built and

Time: 6965.92

that will be built and you know the

Time: 6968.44

purpose in bringing you here today was

Time: 6970.239

was just that but not that alone um you

Time: 6973.92

know I think we hear so much about the

Time: 6976.04

brain and how it works and everyone

Time: 6977.56

wants to have tools and protocols to

Time: 6980.199

function better but um

Time: 6982.84

it's clear that the work that you're

Time: 6983.92

doing is headed in a Direction that's

Time: 6985.4

going to vastly expand the possibilities

Time: 6987.96

for sake of treating human disease and

Time: 6989.92

and for expanding Human Experience I'm

Time: 6992.079

I'm certain of

Time: 6993.599

that what I did not expect

Time: 6996.8

however was that when I wrote down one

Time: 6999.48

bullet point well actually two I wrote

Time: 7002

still a coffee snob question mark the

Time: 7004.44

answer is yes um and yoga you know that

Time: 7010.199

we would end up in territory where you

Time: 7011.8

would share some of your experience that

Time: 7013.719

I myself was not aware of about this um

Time: 7016.159

a bit of a Wandering um of three

Time: 7019.119

different PHD programs and of this um

Time: 7022.599

cultivation of an intuitive sense of of

Time: 7025.92

beauty and taste and preference

Time: 7028.48

that the way you described it takes you

Time: 7031.159

out of your rational mind and into the

Time: 7034.079

aspects of your nervous system that just

Time: 7037.36

really act as a compass toward what is

Time: 7039.88

absolutely right for you and we're all

Time: 7042.639

so lucky that what's absolutely right

Time: 7044.44

for you turns out to also be what's

Time: 7047.28

absolutely right and beneficial for the

Time: 7050.04

world so thank you for coming here today

Time: 7053.44

thank you for sharing your

Time: 7055.639

knowledge and your heart and for doing

Time: 7059.159

it with um such an incredible degree of

Time: 7061.96

of openness and respect so thank you so

Time: 7065.719

much thank you Andrew it's a great

Time: 7067.32

pleasure really appreciate it thank you

Time: 7070

for joining me for today's discussion

Time: 7071.56

with Dr EJ chisi to learn more about the

Time: 7074.32

work in the chich niski lab and to find

Time: 7076.48

links to EJ's social media handles

Time: 7078.36

please see the links in the show note

Time: 7079.92

captions if you're learning from Andor

Time: 7081.92

enjoying this podcast please subscribe

Time: 7083.92

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Time: 7088.32

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Time: 7090.159

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Time: 7093.96

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Time: 7095.92

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Time: 7097.719

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Time: 7099.44

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Time: 7101.8

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Time: 7102.84

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Time: 7104.719

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Time: 7107.719

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Time: 7109.599

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anybody thank you once again for joining

Time: 7194.119

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Time: 7196.639

chelski and last but certainly not least

Time: 7199.639

thank you for your interest in

Time: 7205

science

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