Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

[Music]

life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine my guest today is Dr Becky

Kennedy Dr Becky Kennedy is a clinical

psychologist specializing in parent

child relationships she received her

degrees and did her training at Duke

University and Columbia University in

New York she is the author of the

bestselling book good inside a Guide to

Becoming the parent you want to be she

is also the founder and creator of an

online learning platform also called

good inside at which parents and parents

to be can learn the best possible

parenting skills that are grounded in

the fields of Clinical Psychology that

have been proven to work in the real

world and that can allow people to

navigate common sticking points in

parent child relationships during

today's discussion you will learn a

tremendous amount of actionable

knowledge of about what it is to be a

good parent this is a conversation that

pertains not just to parents and parents

to be but also uncles aunts grandparents

and also those of you not planning to or

who do not want children I say that

because while everything we discussed

today is grounded in the discussion

around parent child relationships it

indeed pertains to all of us and

relationships of all kinds including

romantic relationships friendships

workplace relationships and our

relationship to self Dr Kenedy defines

for us and makes clear and actionable

what the exact job of good parenting is

and how that relates to other

relationships that we might have she

explains how to set healthy boundaries

and in fact defines exactly what healthy

boundaries are there's a lot of

misconception about that we also talk a

lot about empathy and the need to make

children and ourselves feel safe in all

kinds of relating we discuss how to

navigate disagreements and arguments

apologies and punishments reward and on

and on all framed within a real world

realtime context what I mean by that and

what I think really sets apart Dr Becky

Kennedy's work from so much else that

you'll see out there on parent child and

other types of relationships is that she

makes what to do and say and what not to

do and say in a variety of real world

contexts very clear such that you can

access that knowledge and do those

specific things and avoid those specific

things even when things get tense in

fact especially when things get

difficult or tense by the end of today's

episode you will have learned a dozen or

more very potent clinically backed tools

to navigate parent child relating

including your relationship to your own

parents alive or dead and your

relationship to self before we begin I'd

like to emphasize that this podcast is

separate from my teaching and research

roles at Stanford it is however part of

my desire and effort to bring zero cost

to Consumer information about science

and science related tools to the general

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huberman to get 20% off and now for my

discussion with Dr Becky Kennedy Dr

Becky Kennedy welcome thank you so

excited to be here I have a lot of

questions for you and as I mentioned in

my introduction much of what we are

going to discuss today relates to parent

child relating but pertains to

relationships generally so people with

children without children who don't want

children hopefully there aren't people

that hate children but for all people uh

out there with children or not planning

them or

not relationships are really just

fundamental to who we are and I actually

place relationships including

relationship to self in what we now

think of as the six pillars of mental

health physical health and performance

um sleep nutrition exercise

relationships clearly vital to all

aspects of life so I'd like to start off

by just

asking for all of us are there some

simple or perhaps not so simple

questions that uh we can reflect on that

give us a sense of you know how good a

parent we are or would be based on I

don't know our our previous parent child

relationships our relationship to self

you know like what kind of things come

to Bear when we think about really

healthy relationships um I can you know

start rattling off a list of what I

imagine they could be but what are your

thoughts like what are the what's the

parameter space as as we say how should

we think about relationships besides

just oh you know I either like this

person or don't or I feel good around

them or I don't or separating how I feel

about them versus how they make me feel

you know we can drill a little deeper

below the the kind of U more superficial

stuff that we often see out there the

first thing that comes to mind when you

say that is this word sturdiness and to

me when someone says like what is good

inside as an approach and that's always

the first word that comes to mind and I

know that's like an odd word it's not a

word we like use a lot although I do

think most people when you say that

person's like a really sturdy person I

think we all have some connotation or

feeling at least of what that means and

I use it a lot being a sturdy parent

being a sturdy leader I talk a lot about

the similarities to Parenting and kind

of being a pilot of a plane and and that

word stdio comes up and so I remember a

little while ago someone pushed me

they're like what's your definition of

what that means and at that point I

thought wow I should probably have a

definition given I I use it a lot but

what I think it really means is

inability to be connected to yourself

and to someone else at the same time and

I think that is really the definition of

sturdy leadership and that is the key

thing that's present in a healthy

relationship that at

once I kind of know my values what I

want what I need I feel like I can be

true to that and at the same time I can

kind of connect to someone else who

probably has different wants and needs

and maybe even slightly different values

at the same time and the thing that that

leads me to next is what I think about

is like family jobs and a parent job

so in almost any other place you could

assume if I'm getting a new job at this

company like there's just no way I could

do my job well if I don't know what my

job is right if you go to your desk and

your boss like have a good day do a good

job and there's no job description you'd

be like I like that's impossible but

over and over with parents if I say to

them well what is your job with your kid

or when your kid is having a tantrum or

they hit or they're rude or they lie to

your face or anything like what is your

job in that moment most people very

well-intentioned educated people who

would never ever take a job if they

didn't have a job description they look

at me they're like I have I have no idea

so how can we do it well how can we then

perform it to a place to get to the

outcomes we want if you don't have the

foundation of what your job is and to me

I I I thought a lot about it I think

parents actually have two jobs and it

relates to sturdiness so you'll you'll

connect it where one of our jobs is

boundaries and to

me boundaries are things we tell people

we will do and they require the other

person to do nothing and that's like

really important because a lot of times

we think we're setting a boundary when

actually we're making a request and

boundaries keep us connected to

ourselves they represent our values and

our wants and our needs and in a parent

child relationship they also keep our

kids safe if I I just know in a simple

way like my kids watched enough TV today

and they really have to get to bed and I

know that like I don't want them to stay

up late I kind of know what my family

needs I have to set a boundary but the

other part of my job is like empathy and

validation which is a way of connecting

to someone else where you see someone

else's feelings and experience as real

you don't agree with it probably you

don't necessarily condone the behavior

that's the representation of the

feelings but the feelings themselves you

need to connect to and I feel like those

are our two jobs as parents and that's

really the way to be a sturdy leader and

to be in a sturdy healthy relationship

with your kids wow so much there uh and

I love it uh and here's one of the

reasons I love it this notion of

sturdiness something that I don't think

we hear enough about um you know we hear

about resilience grit um also important

terms um but sturdiness as as you've

described it and the job of parenting um

really seems to include a lot of um

verbs not just nouns and adjectives and

I and I'm a huge fan of verbs because

biology and to some extent psychology um

yes also psychology is all about verbs

um and so the labels often are um

mysterious but sturdiness it you know

just sends a clear message of of

something that um doesn't budge easily

um but then as you describe the job of

being a parent having boundaries and I'd

like to drill into that a little bit

more what how you view boundaries um but

also empathy uh it's not a walled off um

picture it's one that that is

semi-permeable um also uh and I confess

I'm a bit obsessed with um old school

psychoanalytic theory not as the the the

be all end all of psychology but but it

also suggests um like this other other

relationship like I'm a person I have a

self you're a person you have a self

this is the opposite of codependency

where obviously dependency and two

people being quote unquote codependent

can be healthy in the context of relying

on one another but uh as I understand it

when one person has a self and another

person doesn't have a self or this

notion of merging not just in romantic

relationships but child parent

relationships you know I'm best friends

with my mom or dad is that a good thing

I don't know but this notion of other

other relationships it's like I self

you're a self and we each see each other

as another um anyway I I think there's

so much to explore here so valuable um

you mentioned that boundaries are

something that we do and that the

requires that the other do nothing um

can we go a little bit further into that

because um it's a beautiful concept and

um this notion of boundaries but like uh

gaslighting narcissism and all the other

things that we hear about nowadays I

think is are often badly misunderstood

so tell tell us more about boundaries

and uh how that looks in the in the

action sense of it and this is all so

connected to what you're saying that

other other relationship I'm a person

you're a person and so many times that's

actually is what gets merged and so my

kid gets upset that I say they can't

watch another show and and apparent

really in that moment it's like they're

whose feelings are whose like they were

upset was I was upset a second ago I

thought I should set the boundary and

now all of a sudden I'm changing my mind

there is this complete role kind of

confusion and merger which is one of the

main reasons that kids get actually

really scared and escalate their

behavior because they don't have a

sturdy leader when they really need one

right so boundaries are what we tell

someone we will do and they require the

other person to do nothing I like this

definition for a lot of reasons I'm just

very practical so it allows me after I

set a boundary to like assess was that a

boundary or not right because let's take

um let's take the TV example it's

whatever time at night my kid has just

watched a show and they know they were

supposed to watch one show and and then

you know turn off the

TV I hear from parents a lot my kid

doesn't listen or my kid doesn't respect

my boundaries and I'll say okay like

that sounds hard let's get into that so

then they'll say so I told my kid to

shut off the

TV they just kept watching they just

kept on I told my kid to stop jumping on

the couch and they kept jumping they

don't respect my boundaries they don't

listen to me this is like a beautiful

example of like this is a problem I

agree but this is not a boundary problem

you made a request of your child and

frankly if you have your I'm making this

up seven-year-old watching TV I'm not so

good at putting away TV in a phone at

night like it's just hard for me to do

so your seven-year-old probably is just

you know addicted to what's ever

happening and we're kind of asking our

kid to do our job for us because we

don't want our kid to be mad at us or

whatever it is a boundary in that

situation would be saying O you didn't

put off the TV look by the time I get

over there if you haven't turned off the

TV and I don't want to do this but I

will I will take the remote out of your

hand and shut it off a boundary is

saying O after my request doesn't work

can you get off the couch you can jump

on the floor look if by the time I get

over there you haven't gotten off the

couch I will pick you up that is like I

was say I'm not going to put the success

of my intervention in my like

seven-year-olds hand I care too much

about my own needs and my own role as a

as a leader in my home to do that right

same thing with let's say in-laws my

mother-in-law doesn't respect my

boundary show shows up without calling

now I don't want to get to this point

there's a lot of things in a

relationship we can do before we get to

this point but if that's really a

boundary and I have a very kind of

intrusive mother-in-law a boundary would

be saying look this is going to be

awkward and I know you mean well but the

next time you come

unannounced I will come to your car and

say oh this time doesn't work for us you

cannot come in and I will go back into

my house and close the door like now

there's going to be lots of feelings

around that but you are now setting a

true boundary and when we say our kids

don't

listen those are often situations not

all them but there's a big percentage

where I'm actually not setting a

boundary early enough and in a sturdy

enough way which is what my kid needs

because at that point they simply don't

have the skills to inhibit and urge and

they need me to be the boundary for them

we hear sometimes that U kids are

craving rules they're craving boundaries

um I don't know I was kind of a wild

Adolescent and teenager um maybe a

little more than wild I I don't recall

ever craving rules I but I do recall

paying attention to their lack of

presence so what of that um you know is

this notion that kids really want and

crave rules and boundaries is that is

that sort of a uh I don't know

projection that we put on to them um and

and I'm not exploring this just just for

fun I'm exploring it because I think

that one thing that's very helpful in

setting boundaries especially with kids

is the idea that gosh even if it's a bit

painful to see them in discomfort

there's that empathy piece that you

talked about before that empathic

Attunement can um get in the way of

boundaries right these are and they're

not mutually exclusive but these are

somewhat competing forces set at times

so if we if we know or if we can

acknowledge at least explore this idea

that rules are deep down what they

really want not just what they need yes

um maybe it would help yes and I think

by the way in my taking you know the

remote away or taking my kid off the

couch just to be clear if I do that to

my kid like they are not going to say oh

mom you are the best mom in the world

thank you they are going to cry and

scream and that's where boundaries and

empathy those two parts of our job

actually do always go together I think

they're actually Partners they're not

actually at odds because as soon as my

kid is upset what I would say to them is

oh you wanted to jump on the couch it's

not as much fun on the floor oh you

really wanted to watch another show you

didn't even want it this big you wanted

to watch it this big it sounds crazy

because you're like wait why am I

empathizing with that feeling they just

kind of disobeyed no they're two

different things I'm doing my job and

setting a boundary they're actually

doing their job and feeling their

feelings that's actually their job the

only way you can ever learn to regulate

a feeling is through feeling the feeling

so they're doing their job now I'm going

to validate and this is how kids learn

motion regulation boundaries they feel I

validate I hold the boundary over and

over and over so do kids crave rules and

I I think one of the issues is that most

parenting approaches have one or the

other and I think they're both very

incomplete strategies if you just lead

with rules right I don't know who said

it definitely wasn't me like what is it

rules without relationship lead to

Rebellion yeah that's what happens right

so that's not good but I see the stage

we've swung the other direction it is

also not a complete parent strategy when

your kid's jumping on the couch to do

nothing if you think that's dangerous

and to say oh you really want to jump

jump jump and such big feelings like

that is not what kids need I think kids

crave boundaries and they crave feeling

seen and understood because as kids are

growing up like I think the questions

they're always asking parents even

though of course they never say this

it's just am I real and am I safe every

interaction that's what they're asking

us the reason we have to Val validate

their feelings when they're upset even

though they're so upset just that their

string cheese broke whatever it is is

feelings don't have markers like blood

or like they don't know and so when we

say oh you wanted your string cheese to

be together what we're really saying is

the things you experience inside of you

are real but kids are also desperate to

know like how far do things go no one

likes to feel boundaryless as a kid

that's terrifying right and so when we

said a boundary we actually say to a kid

like I will always protect you like I

won't let things get so far out of

control so I do think I don't know if

it's rules but kids crave connection and

I think boundaries and kind of

validation and empathy they are the two

forms of connection that kids yeah are

really desperate

for what about rewarding kids and here

rather than um start off by asking you

know what are the best ways to reward

kids in healthy ways and I will ask that

in a moment um how can we uh evaluate

the notion of of Rewards or incentives

um through this lens of sturdiness

boundaries and empathy yeah um because

you know I could imagine you know a

reward that's outsized in comparison to

what a kid did you know okay great you

know you you took your plate to the

kitchen sink after dinner um you know

you get $10,000 obviously out of scale

extreme example but just by way of

example um you're going to screw up

their reward mechanisms for for for life

if you ask me that everything I know

about reward and neuroplasticity says

that that that would occur but but this

idea that you know you can incentivize

kids if if you turn off the TV now then

you definitely can watch tomorrow night

whereas if you don't you can't like so

you're sort of merging reward and

potential punishment um you know

it how do we bound rewards um and uh how

do we take into account that when we

start adding rewards to scenarios that

that we're we're mixing and matching

life experience for them you know okay

so now doing what I'm told do I always

expect a reward um if the reward doesn't

come next time we know based on reward

prediction error we tend to be worse off

emotionally than had we never received a

reward in the first place again pretty

pretty vast parameter space but what are

your thoughts on best ways to reward

kids for standard good behavior yeah

versus

achievement versus elimination of bad

behavior maybe so three categories I

think you're asking a much bigger

question or I'm GNA I think you are

which is like what do what why do

parents think we need to reward kids I

think that's why do we think we need to

punish kids and this is actually where

everything I work on started from

because the way I was trained to work

with parents I went to you know the best

gold standard evidence-based program and

it was all about timeouts and

punishments and rewards and stickers and

ignoring and praise and and honestly

when during the training for the years

after I kind of practiced this way my I

feel like that you know this better than

I am so I shouldn't even say this but

like that left part of my brain like

logic and linearity I was just like this

is amazing oh my goodness we're going to

get more of the good behavior and we're

going to not get the bad behavior and

and I'd start teaching this to parents

my private practice

and there was this little thing in me I

don't even know I was like I don't know

about this I don't know and it get

louder and louder to the point that in a

session I literally said to a parent in

front of me I was just like telling them

how to do a timeout I said I'm sorry I I

don't believe anything I've been telling

you that's literally what I said cuz I

just it was so loud and there it was

obviously super awkward but it led me to

I feel like from this first principal's

way be like there are a million

assumptions that we have about raising

kids and I think about relationships and

if I just strip them back what would I

be left with and what would be a new

building from there and rewards and like

punishments to me are these assumptions

that we have somehow converted from like

the fiction shelf of the library in my

mind to like the non-fiction shelf as

like truths and I kind of rail against

all of them so I think I think the

question if that's okay to go that

direction to me is like why do we think

we need to reward kids and is there

actually a better system both shortterm

and long-term I'm incredibly long-term

greedy in my parenting approach cuz at

the end of the day 18 and up is where

things really matter not really matter I

mean they all matter but I'd rather you

know I want to help my kids become

sturdy resilient adults but I'm

short-term greedy too cuz I'm a realist

like I just can't deal with like all

these difficult moments you get both for

sure without rewards and punishments so

I don't know what might someone tell me

they give a reward for do you want to

use the like clearing the table or

example let's start that

there it kind of goes back to like

believing kids are inherently good

inside I really think it goes back to

that if you really believe kids are

inherently good inside which by the way

when I strip back every assumption the

only thing I was left was that literally

the only thing and then I started to

think okay so if they're good inside why

do they do so many annoying things like

all the time but that gave me a gap and

I feel like that is very exciting to

have a gap like why do people who

goodness side do such bad things right

adults or kids and to me right kids are

born with all the feelings and none of

the skills to manage those feelings like

period and we've often thought therefore

when feelings feelings without skills

come out in behaviors I think that's

what bad behaviors are feelings or urges

or something without a skill to manage

them or without access to the skill

maybe in that moment either way and then

we end up punishing

Behavior but the behavior was just a

sign of the lack of

skill so I can't imagine anyone thinking

I could teach my kid to swim by

punishing them for not swimming like I

think someone would say that was crazy

um and but that's kind of how we raise

kids and then we think rewarding them is

going to be effective but it actually

leads over and over to what you said

I've seen these parents over and over my

private practice my 14-year-old

literally won't pick up their clothes

from the floor unless I give them $5

dollar like how did I get here and I'm

like yeah that's that's a problem but I

saw how they got there so let's take

clearing you know their plate like I

know this is going to sound cheesy but

kids do have something in them where

they want to feel like a purposeful

meaningful part of society they do

impact drives adults and it drives kids

it's not the same type of rewarding as

playing fortnite it's a totally

different system but I think the

question is like why do we think we have

to bribe kids or you know kind of trick

them into doing things that are kind of

like basic parts of human life and so if

we take that and my kid chronically

isn't clearing their plate I could say

to them

look every time you clear a plate I'm

going to give you a sticker after five

stickers you're going to get I don't

know whatever it

is to me like a much more just effective

way is I'd say to my kid hey I know you

know like clearing a plate is just one

way of being part of this family and

taking care of stuff I know you know

that we're on the same team I say that

phrase we're on the same team right we

are um something's getting in your way

remembering I'm going to assume I like

like the most generous interpretation

that to me allows you to separate

someone's bad behavior from their good

identity then I going say what would

help you remember we literally did this

with my son who always had his towel on

the floor and I was just like I bet he

just doesn't remember he literally

doesn't see it we talked about it and

he's like we talked about him putting a

Post-It literally something simple like

a Post-It on my door that just says pick

up my towel he wrote it in his own

handwriting right trying to facilitate

him like solving his own problems and

now he has a much higher rate of picking

up his towel like I guess I could have

said every time you pick up your towel

you'll I don't know get a dollar or

whatever it is but again it makes me

think I'm not building the generalizable

skill that way I'm just kind of offering

something at the end which sets me on

this kind of awful cycle that I think

kind of misses the point I'd like to

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huberman I love the idea that kids want

purpose um and am I correct in wondering

if that goes back to this am I real

component of the am I real am I safe yes

like one way that we know we are real is

our ability to impart change on the

world around us I don't want to get too

abstract here but you know as a

neuroscientist I've often sat back and

reflected like all the emotions we feel

like no one sees that or knows that

unless we say something we write

something we sing something we shout

something you know all the forms of

expression just like none of our um our

dreams are creative uh insights or or

wishes um exist except inside US unless

we transmute them into something

something in the real world so there

does seem to be something about having

this nervous system from a time we're

really young like it it's seeing our

effect on the world that that really

makes us real and on others and um I

love the idea that well and I must say I

absolutely believe in my heart and I

just feel it as a feeling that kids are

inherently good inside like I just I

can't imagine any other version of that

but does that mean that there are people

out there who believe that kids are

inherently bad or or at least not good I

I mean like how could that be but then

again maybe I'm just naive uh I don't

know if anyone consciously believes that

but when I go back to that system I was

first trained in rewards and punishments

like it feels like a system of

Behavioral control and to me like I've

always thought about control and Trust

as opposites so I only control what I

don't trust so nobody said to me in that

program by the way Becky everything

you're learning Here We Believe kids are

bad inside and so we do this thing

but well if I don't trust my kid and if

I don't trust they inherently have the

things in them to do good by the way

that's not going to happen naturally

that's why we have a big job as a parent

to coach our kids to bring that out to

set boundaries when they can't do it and

so many other things but I don't believe

anyone would say yeah it's because

they're bad inside but there is a nature

where you're constantly interacting with

your kid from that other system looking

at them like I don't trust you I don't

trust you and when you do bad things I

cannot hold on to the fact that you have

a good identity that's why I'm giving

you a punishment that's why I'm sending

you away to your room and so if I'm

reflecting back to you constantly that

you are just your latest behavior that I

don't trust you that I kind of have to

bribe you to do very basic human things

well our kids form their identity from

our reflection of them and so then we're

this is what really compelled all of

this I'm like we're raising generation

after generation of kid kind of saying

to them like you're kind of a bad

untrustworthy kid and then we wonder why

we have such high rates of like massive

mental health problems well like I

there's some linearity there I'm curious

about this notion of impingement I I've

heard about this um you know this idea

that you know when we're young we're

forging life deciding you know do I like

the way this tastes or not tastes you

know by the way I still hate anchovies I

don't need to be asked again to know the

answer but when you're young you know

we're encouraged to do things like eat

your broccoli taste the anchovy and some

parents it seems are very comfortable

with the idea of allowing their children

to have their feelings and their wishes

they their as I always say the nervous

system seems to be divided into yum

yucks and me Mez I guess the plur will

be me um yum yucks and Mez I mean it's

more complicated than that but like with

people where either like yeah I really

like them or no something's off there

like you know um so it's not that much

more nuanced than that the brain's got

to make decisions afterward after all

excuse me so um you know kids have their

yums yucks and Mez and then we've got

our our ideas about what they need to do

in order to progress through life often

inherited from our parents and hopefully

Modified by the wonderful work that

you're doing and writing about and in

your your program um then we're talking

about here but you know how

much space should we allow for kids to

be un

impinged like like you don't want to eat

you don't want to eat what we're eating

for dinner like okay I'm not going to

cook you an entire new dinner but then I

guess like you might go to bed hungry

sounds harsh right um but the other

version is okay what would you like for

dinner well I prefer let's say they pick

a healthy option they prefer pasta not

chicken okay we won't do the ice cream

chicken you know uh thing um do we do it

right like how much impingement I don't

want to watch a movie with the family I

want to play in my room you know at some

level you know I've heard it both ways

that impingement is needed for safety

and life progression but there's times

when it it's uh it's more subtle than

that it's not about safety and life

progression it's not about going to

school or not going to school homework

or no homework it's about like do you

want to come with us to the park you

want to play at home in your room how

often should we impinge um how do we

know um this this kind of the the tricky

the tricky areas of parenting that I

think um because it doesn't fall into

the extremes yeah I love this question

that's a word I don't often hear

actually what impingement like can you

act like what like like impinging yeah

like impinging on the child's in um

inherent natural desires or aversion to

things got it right like you say hey

we're going over so- and so's house and

they say you know I don't like their

kids you go listen you got to learn to

play with other kids and go no I don't

like their kids you say did something

happen and so we're not talking about a

dangerous situation like no I don't like

the I just really want to just stay home

yeah this is a great that so are we

going to impinge on their I mean because

we're teaching them either way we're

teaching them something you got to do

stuff you don't want to do even if you

don't like it yeah and here again we're

ruling out the possibility that there's

something unsafe about the environment

psychologically or physically unsafe or

but at the same time we're teaching them

um hey you're I see you I hear you but

you know your desires might not be right

there there's actually a kind of an like

a tacit message of the way you feel

might not be the best gauge of what's

best for you which sends a complicated

message to a kid totally so this is

again where I think at good inside like

family jobs are so useful family jobs to

me when I used to meet with parents and

like they describe a situation I feel

like 90% of the time that's where I'd

start because then that flows from there

it's like a framework so what is my job

I'm the one who sets boundaries like I

am the one who makes key family

decisions obviously as our kids get

older they they should be making some

decisions too no one likes to feel

controlled but key decisions and my job

is to validate my kids experience this

is actually complicated because again

over and over we think that validating

my kids's experience means they're going

to dictate a decision my boundaries

don't dictate my kids feelings and my

kids feelings should not dictate my

boundaries they're just two equal things

so this is a great example my kids

should like you know I don't like

playing with those kids and I can I just

stay home with let's just say Grandma

was home can I just stay home I'm like I

just think it's important to go as a

family but my kid doesn't want to go

there's nothing dangerous okay to me

this is that exact way of putting family

jobs into action sweetie like and to me

this phrase I wish every parent could

say this to their kid I believe you if

you want to make a kid feel real and

confident for Life confidence comes from

the experience of being believed because

that's how you I for me confidence is

self trust it's not feeling good about

yourself it's self-trust I really do

know the way I feel so let's say I say

to my son in that situation it's I

believe you I'd start that way I believe

you look I I know you want to play

football all day and the kid around your

age hates football like that would

probably be lowest on your list of types

of kids you'd want to hang out with for

the afternoon I totally believe

you

and in this family we know

that sometimes we have to do things we

don't love to do we do that for a family

experience I say this to my kid all the

time you know also just to end up being

a good adult you just have to end up

practicing as a kid doing things you

don't want to do things that are boring

things that aren't your preference so

you know you notch in your belt for that

so you don't have to thank me and and

also I know you have it in you to do

your best to be polite and engaged like

I just I know you're a good kid and this

isn't what you want and I know we're

going to get through it now if it's

really hard maybe young hey let's create

a sign like can you look at me and

go when you feel like you're kind of at

this and then me and you we're going to

go to the bathro I'm going to give you a

hug and right I'm going to say I know

this isn't what you want and when we get

home we could watch that football game

whatever it was right because what we

often do is we leave ourselves with two

choices with kids we either say fine

stay home their feelings actually just

dictated the decision that's not helpful

for them I don't want my kid to learn in

life when I don't want to do something

people twist and turn to make that thing

not happen like that's disturbing for

adulthood expectations but then we do

the other thing which is like you are so

selfish just because don't have a friend

your age doesn't mean that you can't

come with us so we either let their

feelings dictate or we think our

boundaries kind of give us the right to

be mad at our kid right like to do both

is so important and so that's where I

think to me when I hear impingement like

I actually think that's that is the

exact space where you have the most bang

for your buck as a parent like it's not

enjoyable and again if I have my

beautiful intervention with my son do

not think my kid will look at me and say

I love how you explained that that was

so beautiful no he's going to roll his

eyes my job is not to take the bait cuz

I'm an adult and to also hold hope I

think that's really important this Con

concept of I'm validating my kids

feelings where they are today but I need

to be the one to hold hope that they can

cope with it if I can't name to my kid I

know you're going to get through it

they're not going to be able to see that

kind of next more mature version of

themselves and I actually think it's the

same as your best boss you know's like I

know you don't want to go on this trip I

I don't whatever it is I know this

presentation topic isn't the one you

would have chosen and there were 10

things and this was literally number 10

I totally get that and it stinks and I'm

not taking anything away from that and

this is the thing I need you to do and I

know something about you like when you

put your mind to something you always do

a great job and like it's probably not

going to be enjoyable but I do know

you're going to do a great job on this

like that's like the boss you want

amazing are you adopting children by the

way I'm I actually I finished college

and actually I actually consider Andrew

you adult children uh what I'm hearing

is don't dictate their behavior with and

I'm G to underline and bold dictate

don't dictate their behavior you're

going to do this because I said so

that's dictatorship but at the same time

don't quash the emotion behind the

resistance kind of acknowledge it make

them feel real

um I believe you I I love this phrase

amazing and I love your definition of

confidence if people didn't hear that

we're definitely going to repeat it

again and we're going to we're going to

etch it into your neural circuitry

because I love that it's it's a it's a

self trust

yes and this notion of giving hope

you're giving them a an incentive that's

based on a reward that's actually good

for them that they can translate to

other situations as well uh wow

um can I double click on reward because

you know what made me think I didn't

think until you said that like I think

in a situation we'd be tempted to say

like and if you go and you're polite

I'll give you 20 extra minutes of Roblox

right that's like and first of all let

me just say something like whatever I

say to you like for listeners like it's

not like I do this stuff all the time

with my actual kids I'm the first one

sometimes to be like here's your thing I

have to dangle we'll provide a little

section in the comment section on

YouTube where your kids can no I'm just

kidding EXA your kids are forbidden no

oh wait that's wait that's dictating we

understand why you I believe that you

would want to comment um but but we're

going to trust uh we're going to let you

know why it's a it's good for you if you

don't anyway I'll practice this on

someone else's kids but the reward like

the when your kid ends up seeing

themsel capable of doing something they

didn't previously think they could do

you know better than me like I feel like

that is like one of the best rewards

even if it's getting through a social

situation or I think about this a lot

with you know my little kid is I don't

know like struggling with a puzzle or

something and I could just do it for

them or if I help them kind of regulate

oh this is a hard puzzle and you can

take a break I I just know you're going

to figure it out today I just know it

and then because of that they get there

that feels in your body like that is the

best kind of reward and it's the type of

reward that works for kids in adulthood

when they're in a job we want them to be

motiv ated by the feeling they're going

to have of Pride not be saying hey I

finished my thing early do I get a bonus

to their boss like that's that's not

going to play out as well I love it I um

I'm just pausing and shaking my head

only because I love it so much um and I

just want to make sure that I don't

quickly move to the next question

without drilling down even deeper into

some of these Concepts um I believe you

as the

feedback uh or response that can instill

real confidence over time um not to get

too nuanced here

but how is it different because I I

sense it is different than I hear you I

hear you but you're going to do this

anyway yes or I hear you but listen in

this

family yeah um I believe you the word

believe is powerful and I believe

there's real power in specific words as

is you know like for instance sturdiness

again such a such a powerful and

underused word I believe you um what do

you you're a psychologist what what do

you think we're hearing when somebody

says I believe you that's different than

I hear you I haven't listed these out

but I think we all have these like core

needs as humans and I think being

believed is one of them because it's

it's someone else kind of saying like

you're real that's what I I might not

feel what you're feeling but that thing

that feels strong to you that nobody can

see or measure is

real and when I think

about the most confident people like I

think about this girl who I went to Duke

with and she was just brilliant like so

smart we were in this seminar it was one

of these small classes where this

professor was like talking about stuff

and like I for once I was like I have no

idea what this person's talking about

but like I was like no one else was

stopping and this girl raised her hand

and she said I'm sorry if everyone else

is annoying like I have no idea what

you're talking about like is there any

cuz I usually do and like is there any

way you could say that in a different

way that is like to me the utmost

version of confidence that she believed

her own experience of confusion was real

confusion she didn't think it was a sign

she was stupid she she believed it she

believed herself that is so confident

and I think when someone says I hear you

there they're they it's like a version

of listening there's many worse phrases

no damage is done when we follow

anything but but we tend to invalidate

so that's not good anyway I believe you

but is also not going to but there's a

million examples of this to me that

build confidence and I actually think

there's so many situations with kids

where they say situations and we worry

oh they have low confidence and then we

intervene to quote make them feel better

which actually is the thing that lowers

their confidence because it's like we

say to them I don't believe you you're

not really feeling the way you feel

where I believe you is the exact

opposite so like I like to give an

example just cuz it makes it concrete

like my kid will come home and say

um I don't know um I was picked last for

you know for Dodgeball today I was pick

last and something and and they're

they're clearly very very sad right and

we want to say to them like it's no big

deal or everyone's pick last sometimes

or but remember yesterday you told me

you were pick first for basketball and

we think like I need to build up my kids

confidence those are

confidence I say destroying that's

reducing interventions cuz a kid is kind

of coming to a parent basically saying

I'm up very very upset that I was picked

last and we're saying to a kid no you

weren't and they're like but I am and

what they learn is this is really

terrifying to me is other

people are better feelers of my feelings

than I

am and that has like a million really

scary interpersonal I think relationship

kind of consequences later down later

down in life but when a kid says you

know I was pick last and nobody even

wants me and they all think I'm the

worst athlete whatever a kids say to sit

and say some version of like I'm so glad

we're talking about this and I could

tell that was a really hard gym class

and sweetie

like I I believe

you you will watch your kid it is crazy

to me what parents tell me happen when

they say those words to their kids

they're like it also just like literally

diffus us used everything and they were

like ready to move on like they are just

trying to tell you probably like I was

feeling something it was a lot it was

confusing right our feelings are always

hardest when we're alone in them so I

was alone in it and I bring it to you

and someone says I believe you not only

are they giving you that corn need

they're also just like they're like

sitting down with you in it and that's

that makes everything better and then

meanwhile what a kid feels like when we

say I believe you to a hard experience

or hard feeling is they're like the

feelings that overwhelm me don't

overwhelm my parents they can tolerate

it they're not scared of me kind of

being a loser in gym class one day and

if my parent likes me when I have that

feeling like I can start to like myself

when I have that feeling it's so great

because it sounds

like it accomplishes both things it

makes kids feel real and safe

yes real and safe and you know I can't

help but at ask say because you know how

we started off today was that this isn't

just about parent child relationships

but in friendships in romantic

relationships and cooworker

relationships that the words I believe

you I have to presume based on

everything I'm hearing now and feeling

inside about it that it's equally

effective huge well you know years ago I

was on like a podcast early on and to me

there are these three lines that kind of

all go together when kids are anyone's

upset and it's kind of like you start

and to me it's like a beautiful

invitation to have that conversation

just to say to someone I'm so glad

you're talking to me about this right

and then kind of I believe you tell me

more and my husband that when he heard

it was like you know you could like say

those words to me sometimes like I would

like that because and I think about the

workplace too like you have someone come

in they're upset about I don't know I

got staffed on this or I'm not getting a

promotion and I I thought I was like

just diffuse it with just I'm so glad

you're talking to me about this yeah

I've been working nonstop for and just

if you say to them like I I I believe

you cuz we usually don't say to someone

I don't believe you but what we'll say

is we we defend ourselves in that moment

and the way the other person receives it

is as if we're saying I don't believe

the intensity of the experience you're

having and when you do lead with I

believe you same thing in a partnership

you know like every time I ask you to do

something you get really hot and

bothered like it doesn't even mean you

agree you're kind of just believing I

like I like I believe you like tell me

more right I believe you that that

really upset you and like I'm obviously

I have a whole another story in my head

but like I hear what you're saying and

and I know there's something there and I

believe it enough to like be open to

hearing more about it I don't know

that's like what's best that's what

that's what we all want in our in our

Partnerships I mean I'm wide-eyed I mean

what a beautiful acknowledgement that as

you pointed out is not agreeing to

accept someone else's reality to the

extent that you're going to dismantle

until the the you know the order of the

world whatever it is but it's such an

opening as opposed to a closing and as

you said it's non-fed but it's also

boundaried I mean there's just so many

things about it that feel good um seem

good and and clearly are good you know I

don't want to go down the the um tragic

Rabbit Hole of trauma but um previous

guest on this podcast um you know is

defined we should probably trauma just

because it gets thrown around a lot

trauma an event or set of

circumstances um that fundamentally

change the way that the brain and

nervous system work so that there's a

maladaptive response going forward it's

not every bad thing that happens but

there are microt traumas sometimes

called small tea more macr traumas big

tea again could be multi-event or single

event but years ago a different

psychologist psychiatrist who's an

adolescent um psychiatrist at Stanford

said something uh in a seminar that just

really struck me which was that at at

its core trauma is really about

confusion over who's

responsible um and and here we're not

just talking about the the more Salient

examples of like sexual assault that

those two U of course but you know like

if if we get screamed at um or we

observe something like third person

trauma like the The Logical stance is

well okay that was them not me but when

this happens especially when young the

nervous system the brain some somehow

interprets this as like I was there I

had a role in it just by being there so

like what was my role and somehow the

emotional response becomes one of

responsibility even if we know like

they're clearly the one that initiated

this and so um the reason I'm bringing

this up in this context is that it's

almost like that lack of belief in self

somehow gets rooted in and then it all

feels confusing and then we don't feel

safe that's right because it's a

confusion about responsibility again

going back to this um we go down that

rabbit hole for a second please please

that's why I raised it I think that your

thought I always think trauma is

actually not events it's the way an

event gets processed and I I love Gabor

M's definition of trauma it's not what

happens to you it's what happens inside

of you right so to me there's an

inherent relationality there where

events that get proc not any event

events with high emotionality let's say

that get processed in aloneness

become traumatic and I think that's

where it gets linked to responsibility

so this is actually what my TED Talk was

about and why repair is so

important um who said this Ronald

Fairburn years ago that for kids it is

better to be a sinner in a world ruled

by God than to live in a world ruled by

the devil I think it explains almost

everything about Child Development right

there going back to goodness

also your parent just screamed at you

and by the way your parent I scream at

my kids everyone's going to scream at

their kids it's going to happen Okay

that's just the event the event's not

going to have the impact what is

happening for a kid well we know kids

are oriented by attachment they

literally need us to survive like they

could not survive on their own and so

what do you do when the person you're

dependent on for safety becomes the

source of danger and threat that's very

confusing for a child in that moment so

they're super hyperaroused they're in

the state of you know Terror and then

usually after in my house too I just

yell at my kid they're kind of alone in

their room I'm alone in the kitchen or

wherever meanwhile spinning cuz like I'm

such a bad parent like I'm Pro you know

but meanwhile because I'm so lost in my

own guilt I might not be going to my kid

and so what happens for my kid if I

don't repair after I scream at them or

one of these events right well a kid

cannot say to themselves my parent just

had a bad day then the Badness is in my

parent my leader I'm I'm young now right

like I don't understand Nuance my leader

can't be bad so I must take on the

Badness at least then I have control so

kids after they're kind of yelled at in

the absence of repair they they really

only have two options for how to

regulate and feel safe again they can

self-blame it's all my fault which is

why I feel like most adults when they

have a hard time they tell themselves

like it's my fault I'm not good enough

it's like the legacy of that story from

childhood or they use

self-doubt maybe that didn't happen

happen maybe I overreacted maybe I can't

trust myself again it leads to adults

who basically say like did I overreact

or let me call five friends let me see

if they think what my boyfriend did was

a big deal cuz they can't trust

themselves and so trauma trauma what I

want every parent to know is they'll say

I left my kid alone and I didn't pick

them up at the soccer field is that

going to traumatize them and I'll say

well that's just the event like did you

say to them hey that probably felt scary

what was that like H you're right like

you were alone now all of a sudden next

to the event that was

scary is my story and my connection it

got processed in a safe connection it

didn't get processed in aloneness and

that's that's a massive massive

difference in the scenario you are

describing the parent who yelled goes to

the

child uh having been that child um and

perhaps also having been that parent um

how do we deal with the fact that

sometimes you know we don't want to be

around the person that yelled at us

it hurt it hurts to receive the care or

there's there's a there's a like a

textured landscape as opposed to a

smooth landscape there like like okay

now you're ready for everything to be

peaceful I'm still with my feelings I

guess that's where the I believe you

comes in and that's where the Sorting it

through process begins is that well I

think it's like what version of a parent

comes back to me the the first thing we

have to do in a repair process is

actually repair with ourselves as a

parent

really because if you haven't repaired

with yourself which to me is kind of

separating your identity again from your

behavior like okay Becky I'll use myself

an example I'm a good parent who just

screamed at her son like I did not mess

up forever and you see when you try to

repair with yourself those two things

get collapsed I'm like I messed them up

forever I'm a monster wait like I'm a

good parent who did something I'm not

proud of you can't repair with someone

until you've repaired with yourself they

feel it from you they actually it

usually is like then you're asking for

them I'll be like it's okay right like

you forgive me right that's not a repair

that's like using your child to try to

do something we just have to do on our

own or with other adults but if I've

repaired with myself I'm going to show

up in a different way might I have a

feisty kid I might like I don't care

it's not better that's okay I'm not

repairing to get something from my child

I'm repairing to give an experience to

them so we can also get creative you

know your kid is older you text them you

slip a door under the note you say okay

I just have to say this one thing thing

to me this line really matters to like

snatch that self- blame out of a kid's

body is just like I'm sorry I yelled it

is it's never your fault when I

yell and it's not and people who argue

like our ability to regulate our

emotions predated our child's existence

like that you know like they had a they

had something they did something and we

felt frustrated but that's very

different than yelling right and saying

that to your kid is so important

meanwhile the next day you might say by

the way let's really figure out how to

get out the door in a smoother way you

know you could work on whatever they

need to work on but the reason I think

most kids end up rejecting parents

apologies is it's not really repair

we're asking our kid for permission to

be okay again or a repair sounds like

hey I'm sorry I yelled but you know like

if you just got ready in time that

wouldn't have happened or we say I'm

sorry you felt that way I'm sorry you

felt that way those are not like none of

those are actually repairs and if that's

what a kid's been used to they're going

to keep a parent more at Bay so is it

safe to say that we can always come back

to making the kid feel real and safe I

believe you was a great place to start

and the reason I keep coming back to

these these simple things is that simple

but very very potent by the way um is

that in the real world landscape of

parenting family in life things are

happening really fast and it's very

Dynamic and it's multifaceted I mean we

haven't even talked yet about how when

there's two parents like the one that

didn't yell um when there's multiple

siblings when I mean there's you know

human dynamics on a one in in other

other landscape is is hard enough and

then when you start introducing the real

world landscape um things happen fast so

having something that people can reach

to really quickly what I call in the

landscape of stress modulation which is

something that I'm more familiar with

from my labs work is you know real time

tools yep real time tools like we're all

at our best after meditation vacation

massage and a good night sleep but what

about real time tools when everything's

everything's hectic um so what does a

really good apology look

like in the real world yeah um because a

really good apology in the ideal world

of uh

Instagram um is yeah I believe you I'm

so sorry with no butts no this that but

a real apology sometimes is as you're

boarding a plane or when there's a bunch

of other things that are going on and

you haven't even dealt with those yet or

when you're on your way to an event or

yeah okay so you get it uh what does a

really good internal landscape for

apology look like like how can we touch

into where we need to be and then what

are the words that even if we have to

try again later and again and again

later with that person in this case kid

but person more generally um what's the

like go-to solid apology so yeah I think

you are never going to go wrong saying I

believe you to your kid like obviously

not you say it randomly but if they're

really upset you yelled at me I believe

you like if that's all you can remember

you're crushing it I think a realistic

repair you have to do something for

yourself and like to me it can be a very

simple Mantra like to me I'm a good

parent who is having a hard time is the

one I use honestly over and over just

and after I yell at my kids before I'll

like go to the bathroom sometimes and

I'll say that to myself Becky like I'm a

good parent having a hard time and I'll

kind of say it as many times as I need

until I really do feel something like

shift a little in my body it just

because again I think that phrase

separates what I did from who I am right

and then to me a realistic apology it

could be super simple if you remember

nothing else could just be like I'm

sorry I yelled that's that's great if

you want to if you're like I'm feeling

it Becky give me that next step I'm you

know I'm sorry I

yelled just like you I'm working on

managing my emotions and you know next

time even when I'm frustrated I'm going

to try to stay calm something about the

next time you know if you want to throw

in that it's not your fault kids it

seems an odd thing because parents are

like why do kids assume it's their fault

it is their default position and so it's

never a bad thing to throw in but

honestly just simply hey I'm sorry I

yelled that actually gives them that

realness because without saying anything

more you're saying that thing you think

happened did happen so that's powerful

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that's insid

tracker.com huberman how do you suggest

parents deal with um retorts and

rudeness and again let's um extend this

to all relationships so you get in your

best

mindset and by the way I love this I am

thing um two of the most important

important words in any language um when

translated to other languages I am blank

I am a good this or I am whatever role

identity is key to the brain um we know

this

um you go in and you say I'm really

sorry I struggle to regulate my emotions

yeah I believe that you're really upset

yeah and the kid says I hate you mhm now

earlier you said that good boundaries

are about not expecting a change in

behavior from someone else they're about

our own boundaries so um where maybe the

I hate you comes from you know listen

we're not going to go to so- and so's

house for a play date today great

example I hate you yeah I hate you um so

is there ever a case for no response I

mean to me the most underutilized

parenting strategy is doing nothing

literally it's one of my most used

strategies IES cuz and there's there's

there's like really good reason for it

especially in this situation so I always

to me like I always say we have to

understand before we intervene so I know

every parent like what do you do in that

situation but it's like trying like it's

like trying to fix someone's tennis

swing before you like look at their

tennis swing right like what there could

be a lot of problems so again why is a

kid saying I hate you and I would ask

every parent to just keep this in mind

it's a tool and you can't use it in real

time eventually you can but we have to

say it at like the end of a night when

my kids said I hate you what is my most

generous

interpretation of why he would say that

to me and if you're like any human me

included by the way like your least

generous interpretation is immediate

you're like because he's a sociopath

like that's what we say all the time

we're like wow or because he's like a

horrible kid because he's spoiled

because he's nasty it comes easily so

that's fine but what is my most generous

interpretation and when I don't know

I'll push myself to say okay well like I

was in a situation with my husband

what would lead me to say that I what

would lead you to say that to someone

that I hate them yeah like they like say

something to you like hey Andrew we're

not going to be able to you know do this

dinner it would have to be some sort of

deep betrayal of trust and and when I'm

and I have to acknowledge that if I said

that to somebody that I really care

about or love if as I'm saying I hate

you what I'm really saying is I love you

so much and that hurts

unbelievably at such an unbelievable

intensity that what's coming out of my

mouth is I hate you because if you

because if you didn't love them that's

right it would have null effect it would

be a me it would be it would be a it

would be a met but instead it's a oh it

hurts so we somehow there's a neural

circuit in there that goes you know I

whatever insert explicative hate you

that's right but what you're really

saying is I love you so much yeah and as

a consequence that thing you did or said

hurts so much that's right and so I

think that's like exactly what's going

on for a

kid or like to me my most generous

interpretation in a simple way is my kid

when I said we couldn't go to this

friend's house that he thought we were

going to his friend he was going to

sleep

over he had like so built it up in his

mind he'd like probably like kids do

like they have this whole image oh and

then we're going to do this and this and

like the let down was so intense and

again I go back to kids have all the

feelings we have and they're born with

none of the skills so it takes a lot of

it takes like a pretty well-developed

skill to be really disappointed by the

way and surprised right in the moment

and like manage it in like a mature way

I I'm sure we both know adults who

aren't really capable of doing that

right so the fact that my seven-year-old

is doing that so if I think about it

that way we latch on to our kids words

as if they're the truth they're not the

truth it's not to say they don't matter

but they're not the truth the truth is

whatever world is under the words like

I'm disappointed appointed and I don't

know how to manage that so if I think

about the outcome like what would where

do I want to be what I would love in

that situation cuz the truth is when I

say to my kid sorry we can't go to

Bobby's house I wouldn't even want it's

not normal for my kid to be like oh no

problem because like I would I'm just

picturing my 25-year-old like trying to

get a job and being like Mom oh I didn't

get it and then he's like no problem I'm

like that's kind of weird like really

like that's weird like I'd want you to

be disappointed and so what I want my

kid to be able to do is to be like I

don't know what the best it gets like oh

man I was really looking forward to that

that's like ultimate maturity so how do

I get from I hate you to oh man I was

really like you know looking forward to

that the all the things we want to do

just like don't even make sense like

sending my kid to their room saying like

you're such a nasty kid I've never seen

any of your friends say that to their

parents and I'm good at acting these

things out because of course I say these

things too but all I'm doing is

basically telling my kid the version of

themselves I don't want them to be so

now I'm further away from that outcome

just not

effective my kid obviously literally

needs to learn some of those skills and

practice them we don't think about

simulations with kids nearly enough we

know that in sports people practice all

the time we don't do that with emotion

regulation so what do I do in the moment

I think the best question here is what

do I do outside the moment to help my

kid build the skills so they actually

have more of a skill than next time that

moment comes still I'm a pragmatist what

do I do in the moment I hate you I

probably would do nothing first when

someone is rude to you and they say

something nasty I don't know I just like

this is one this is my son this is me my

son just hurled I hate you it's like

sitting between us when we say back to

them like you know I hate you or like go

to your room we take all the energy from

what they said and we just like throw it

and then like we have this ping-pong

match when you do nothing I always

picture if this is like that hate you it

just sits between us my kid has a much

higher chance of kind of reing

what they just said because I'm just

kind of sturdy in that moment because I

didn't just take it from them and say

something to them which just gives them

the opportunity to like take what I said

and have no responsibility for the first

thing they said it's always true in

adults when someone says to you like

something nasty if you actually just

stay there they're kind of like oh shoot

like I shouldn't have said that because

like it's it's right there so I'd

probably say nothing no a couple I don't

know if I'd really do that but I'd want

to do that let me be clear something

else you can say in that moment which

takes a lot of presence so it's not

going to happen right away is just

something like whoo like clearly you're

disappointed I get that I believe you

and I know there's another way you can

say that to me that's actually right

back to family jobs I'm validating and

I'm setting kind of a boundary in some

ways like I know maybe there's little

hope there too like I know there's

another way if my kid keeps saying I

hate you I hate you you're the worst

you're the worst I'm GNA say listen I

love you you're a good kid you're having

a hard

time I I really won't stay in your room

while you keep saying this to me and

part of that is because it's not good

for you either like this isn't a good

Dynamic I'm going to step outside I'm

going to come back and we can talk about

it when we're both in a place where we

can be a little more respectful or

something like that right you don't have

to be a punching bag but at least now

I'm helping my kid see that he is having

a feeling under these words if I can't

differentiate the feeling from the

behavior how can I expect my kid to ever

learn to differentiate those two which

is how my kid can actually get to a more

regulated place I've sometimes wondered

whether or not parents are either afraid

of

or Not Afraid enough of their

kids um I've known some parents that are

afraid of their kids because and perhaps

as a consequence who knows what the

chicken egg uh is there all we know is

the parent was alive first

the kids learn to control their parents

through not necessarily emotional

outbursts but the threat of emotional

outbursts I've seen this again and again

and it's it's a pretty wild thing to

observe um and of course as an observer

it's far easier than when you're in it

but this idea like who like they're like

a pot ready to Bo boil over uh um you

know like they're going to pop um and

I've seen this in teach in the classroom

I've seen this in so many venues where

whether or not the child understands

that they're somehow controlling the

situation or not that there's just an

inherent fear of what could happen and

then I think kids feel a certain power

but they don't feel safe right I mean

how could they right their children yes

um so for the parents out there that are

afraid of their kids' potential

responses and or how bad their kid quote

unquote might turn out if they were to

really lay down the law here I'm using

kind of old school language but I listen

I grew up you know 48 years old so you

know I yeah I mean my parents you know

didn't physically abuse us but there

might have been a spanking and every

once in a while or I I don't know what

the rule is nowadays or the or the the

uh standard out there you know I think I

won't say which why I might have taken a

smack here there but not many um and it

there was also a lot of love um but

clearly um and here I'm not I'm not

supporting the use of corporal

punishment I want to be very clear um

but you know yeah kids can be tough and

then also you know it wasn't long into

my high school years when I was

physically larger than both my parents I

never used that to intimidate them but I

have to imagine when your kid is larger

than you if you were already

psychologically afraid of them now you

it's clear to both of you that the uh

the tables have turned that's right

right I'm talking about the the

unconscious semiconscious aspects of

this I'm not talking about who can you

know obviously physical fights there's

not something I ever want to see or

participate in in a household so this

this is an amazing topic like walking on

eggshells this is right and this is

terrifying to a kid because again if a

kid is trying to figure out like am I

real and am I Safe Kids do experience

feelings in such an intense way because

they don't have any of those skills and

they're so surprising and they're so

visceral that it is scary to them and

there are kind of especially these

groups of kids I call them deeply

feeling kids that do feel things more

intensely and they do have more of these

big massive Tantrums they even look

animalistic often during they try to

scratch you they'll hiss during them

they'll growel yes really yes there was

a I grew up with some biters yeah kids

that bite yes that's because again those

are just feelings literally uncontained

that are exploding out and where do they

explode out through your extremities so

they that's really what it is and so

what will happen and this is this really

unfortunate dance and one of the my

favorite things to help people turn

around is then kids kind of sense from a

parent like I really am as toxic as I

worried I was right and again if we go

back to that pilot thing like I think

about a pilot who's like um we have to

make an emergency landing we're not

going to be able to go to La and we're

all going to land in Cleveland whatever

it is I picture of the passenger who's

like you are going to take us to LA and

the Pilot's like okay okay like can you

imagine you're like it doesn't matter

that this person is pissed like you're

the pilot you don't have to keep us

happy please keep us safe and if you're

on that plane and you're terrified

because you're like we have to make an

emergency landing I promise you you're

way more terrified when you hear this

person change the decision because of

the threat that a passenger is going to

be very very upset and that is actually

what we do when we're walking around on

eggshells now the alternative to this

again we live in this world in parenting

where there's a binary where we say and

you said it yourself so I'm going to lay

down the law like I don't recommend that

either like especially with a kid like

that that's not going to be the best

solution these kids have to be seen as

good kids they are good kids and when I

we meet with parents of these kids I

hear about them and like I always say I

hear about them and I have a kid like

this so I get it and I'm just like I

really like your kid and they're like

what I was like I do and they're like

and then they usually start crying and

they go you're literally the first

person in 11

years who's ever said

that including like the parents like you

like our kid why I'm like they're

tenacious they're they know what they

want they seem like they have 0% people

pleasing in them these kids will change

the world but not if they're

boundaryless then they'll become tyrants

and that's that's really terrifying and

I'm going to teach you how to be the

sturdy leader which is equally firm as

it is

warm and that's going to start today and

so like here's an example of these

deeply feeling kids I think you said

something about like watching like a TV

show where these kids it feels like they

hold the family emotionally hostage

right and because if you don't pick the

Family the movie that they want to watch

on family movie night they will scream

they will cry and they will do that for

3 hours they will other kids after

you're like they're they don't Peter out

these kids these kids interestingly

enough get in an awful cycle with their

parents because they have such intense

emotions more often which more

escalations which tend to get met with

invalidation your so dramatic you ruin

everything they are that much more

desperate to be believed they escalate

further you can understand how that

would lead to more distance and

invalidation and We're Off to the Races

in a bad Direction and I would say the

you're going to during family movie

night tomorrow night this is what you're

going to do and you're going to by the

way I would say this is how concrete I

get you're going to write this down and

you're going to say it to a voice

recorder with your own voice and I want

you to play it back and see how sturdy

you sound and they'll often do it and

they'll be like wow I didn't even

believe myself when I said that I'm so

scared of my child right you're going to

do it again and then you're going to do

it again and this is this is just like

any other skill we practice and you're

going to say to your kid look I know in

this family you know Bobby usually we

let him pick the movie he gets really

upset if not we all tonight's going to

be different Bobby

it is your sister's turn to pick the

movie and I know you're going to be

upset and I just want to tell you

exactly what's going to happen and I'm

going to in this example I'm saying

there's a two Family household which is

an assumption but even if there's

one say if you're super upset and

screaming I'm going to bring you to your

room this is important I'm going to sit

with you and I'm going to stay there and

this is a line that I know from our

deeply feeling kid Workshop has really

and you have to believe it to say it I

am not scared of your feelings and I

know parents will say to me but Dr Becky

I I am scared of their feelings like

yeah you're going to fake it till you

make it they they need to hear that

because if you think about the image of

these kids their feelings feel so

overpowering to them they feel more but

they're actually more porous to the

world so they both have more coming in

and they are actually always terrified

of how much of them can flow out and so

they feel their feelings that way it's

almost like my tantrum in the house

takes up the entire living room that's

why you actually have to bring them to a

smaller room and you actually have to

contain them in that way as a way of

kind of saying like it only goes this

far like literally I will not let you

dictate family movie and always sitting

in the front SE and your favorite chair

at dinner like it only goes this far and

that is truly an act of love and

protection and safety for those

kids how how often do You observe that

these deep deeply feeling kids is that

how they refer to um I mean I made up

the term so but yeah deeply feeling kids

you're you are qualified to to qualify

too so deeply feeling kids um also

Express these uh deep feelings in the

positive sense um I mean because I can

think of some kids I grew up with and I

can look at my own experience of um like

it's hard to know we don't have a

calibration point it's not like body

temperature of like how much I feel

versus how much you feel we look at the

external expression of these things like

did the did the lacrimal gland secrete

some tears or not like you know as you

were talking about this this thing

before I noticed I like welled up a

little bit and I'm thinking yeah like I

can remember seeing things and feeling

things and like whoa it's a really big

inside I don't remember screaming at my

parents telling them I hate them I

probably did at some point but

um but I have observed other other kids

peers that grew up that clearly fell

into this category and have gone on to

do remarkable things yes remarkable like

extraordinary things because it's it's a

capacity it that doesn't always skew

towards negative expression it can also

like immense expressions of love and and

you know I think these days that there's

a tendency to for unqualified or like

truly unqualified people um because

they're not trained to do so to slap

labels like borderline right splitting

like good object bad object splitting

and indeed that's that exists in the in

as a diagnosis and and symptoms of

borderline but that um we punish rather

than um believe and observe that these

things exist there's range in nervous

system tuning and affect and um so put

simply um do deeply feeling kids also

tend to express love and joy and um and

positive emotions with the with the same

intensity or near same intensity I would

say it depends on some

like it depends on kind of kind of their

stage development and the nature of the

interactions they've kind of received

back I think deeply feeling kids I

always say are super sensors like if you

have won these kids and I have won these

kids we live in New York City she will

not go into a New York City Garage okay

like where we park our car and she's

like the smell and I'm the rest of us

are like what are you talking about

meanwhile I have another friend who

lives in a totally different area of

Manhattan and she's a deeply feeling kid

she's when she's like my daughter the

same thing like I actually believe that

my daughter smells something that I

don't smell like they are super sensors

in that way right and she notices the

little detail of something now in terms

of the intense love I think for these

kids their vulnerability sits so close

to their shame this is why they get so

explosive they almost experience their

feelings as attackers which is again why

parents can get scared of them and they

do because again they feel that feeling

so intensely that they have this deep

fear of Abandonment of being too much

and so they that shame tries to shut it

down although it obviously doesn't work

and it explodes what I've noticed with

deeply feeling kids and this to me is

actually like truly my proudest body of

work and you mentioned border line so we

go there people have said like these

sound almost like kids who are like have

some

predilection to to borderline and

obviously having gone to a PhD program

we're told a lot about invalidating

environments and things like that I'm

not really one for labels either but I

just got so much Insight from my

honestly my own kid where I was like wow

like she is so different and how she

processes things and what she needs and

how she responds to my very same

interactions as my other kids like

they're very different and that fear of

Abandonment and being too much it was

like it was like there from the start it

really feels like it was like there

what's so interesting is I feel like

through working with her by the way in a

very different way because these kids

reject almost every typical parenting

strategy you go to validate these kids'

feelings it's like you're trying to

intrude on them and steal their heart

because if you think about their

porousness there so terrified of being

taken over that when you're like seeing

a feeling they feel like you're like

seeing into them and so they reject you

I always say you can't go in the front

door with these kids you've got to like

find these side door approaches but now

of all my kids she is by far the

cuddliest the most loving the most

emphatic about our relationship up this

trip now I'm going to miss you so much

like the idea when she was four that any

of that I would say to someone like you

are crazy you were talking about

different kid so I think that yes that

deep love is there and it we just have

to kind of make it a little safer for

those kids to access

it is there any kind of General

statements that one can still make

accurately about differences in the

expression or perhaps even the

experience of deeply feeling kids in

boys versus

girls great

question

um

I actually haven't noticed a ton there

might be I'd love to look more into that

but in terms of I want to be accurate I

haven't noticed that yet I think one of

the things you know you have one of

these

kids is if you know the moments when

you're a parent where your kid like

needs you like there and in those

moments your kids push you away they

push you away when they need you the

most that's like I think a really common

quality for the for those kids and how

how um common is this um I sound like

such a like a a biologist this deeply

feeling kid phenotype I I don't I don't

I don't want to you know I don't want to

um lessen the the importance of of of

what you're saying by saying it that way

because actually what I think you're

saying is incredibly important resonates

with me on a lot of different levels in

fact so um but as far as I know it's not

a DSM diagnosis and thank goodness it's

not because that would path

right um so but you know of the you know

in in a classroom full let's make it a

big classroom 100 Kids yeah um how many

of those kids Pro and I'm guessing it's

a Continuum but would fall into this

category of of deeply feeling I think

you're right it's a Continuum and

connecting topics I know you've spoken

about I've been doing a lot of looking

into this overlap with deeply feeling

kids and neurod Divergence and ADHD

and what I think is interesting about

that is we we have these workshops these

deeply feeling kid workshops and a lot

of them we do live and there's this

whole

chat right and I'll say these things

people like that you know they're

definitely ideas they haven't heard but

what I think is more healing is

thousands of people in the chat and

saying I I thought when I say the

hissing thing the chat is like a

waterfall I thought I was the only one I

thought so like there are so many of

these kids why I think there's more and

more something I need to look more into

but I think it does really if you think

about these kids as more porous and you

think about how insanely stimulating the

world is that we bring up kids what

comes into them it would make sense that

I think this is like a growing type I'm

guessing it's similar with ADHD too I

are so many more kids diagnosed than in

the past the world we bring up kids in

the sensory overload if you're kind of

that much more porous that's going to

overload your

system and you know it see and I think

that I think that's also why more and

more kids are so what's the percentage I

don't I don't know like uh maybe 20 but

that that's a fairly high percentage I

do I think it's a fairly high percentage

but that feels right it just sort of

feels right based on my observation of

adults also yeah um feels right might

also explain a lot of the um apparent

conflicts and and um Miser

understandings and adult relationships

that's ex and we I mean so many people

like they'll say me I was oh my goodness

like that was like that was like years

of therapy for me watching that I

thought I would took that from my kid

like this was me and I finally talking

about I believe you that's what I mean

deeply feeling kids are desperate to be

believed and they're desperate for our

attempts to connect with them because

their deep fear is their unlovability

and so they do reject typical you know

it's a Dan get out of my room fine

you're so difficult and then see I

really am as unlovable and bad as I

worried I was right unless we kind of

reverse that cycle I'd be willing to bet

my life that most of the ultra

successful performing artists that we

observe um I'm not going to name names

but just think of ultra successful that

the people whose words music poetry

writing acting uh presence evokes

immense uh emotion in other people so

much that people will pay money to see

these people Express their emotions and

what's inside them fall into this deeply

feeling category 100% I mean it just

can't be any other way right yeah the

the muted uh performer unless that's the

the shtick so to speak is um is just not

compelling yeah yeah and um a lot of

what we're talking today is about um the

kind of um tuning fork nature of

emotions uh it's a wow what what a

tricky balance speaking of that I'd like

to just return to something I raised

earlier and then I made the mistake it

was my fault of shutting the hatch on it

I'd like to reopen that hatch which is

um when there's two parents maybe

they're under the same roof maybe

they're not uh or let's just say two

caretakers um

so kids are pretty darn good at figuring

out who to go to For What and how to

balance out negative experiences by

seeking out the positive reinforcement

of the other sometimes even pitting

parents and caretakers against one

another I mean makes children sound

diabolical but adults do it too it's

called

gossip

what can co-parents co-

caretakers um do to try and align

strategies or if necessary to offset um

some like bad stuff that the other

parent might be doing and in today's

landscape where it's about 50% of of

marriages end in divorce at least in the

US you also have the the situation where

then they um new significant others come

in and now you've extended the landscape

to you know sometimes five or six

different parents you know yeah my

family's my biological family is

starting to look like the UN we've got

so many countries and religions and this

thing it's kind of nice on the one hand

but um lots of Divergence of opinion and

emotional stance and background so how

in the world do we do we wrap our

efforts around this yeah so I one of the

most common questions I get from a

parent at good inside is like can you

convince my partner why the way they do

things is wrong and you know do things

more like good inside and so essentially

I always say like yeah I'm not for a

million Reasons I'm not like too

interested in taking that phone call um

you know but yeah I don't get involved

in couple disput um you know but but

again assuming and you've said this a

couple times which I love like I'm

assuming the way you're kind of partner

or you know the co-parent does things is

not like really like damaging your child

obviously that's like really time for an

intervention no hitting no emotional

abuse exactly but you know even like I'm

not a believer of saying for a timeout

right like I don't believe in timeouts

and Punishment I I don't think they feel

good to kids or parents and I also don't

think they're effective no so time out's

not effective I don't think so okay and

I and we probably should have closed the

hatch on I have to imagine that the

going uh word in the profession of

psychology and raising kids properly is

you never spank them you never hit them

yeah no okay all right for the record so

maybe we'll get back there but just to

go on the record and I think you can

sense from my style not punishing or

timeouts like doesn't mean you're per

permissive at all there's 0% permissive

or even softness I think you know well

there's softness there's 0% permissive

in those moments but we can get back

there but let's say your partner does do

that or the co-parent right like I would

be the first to say to someone like do I

think that that's like messing up your

kid I I don't I really don't especially

if for example in that situation let's

say um I'm divorced and my now ex you

know I just know that they do timeouts

or and I've tried to talk to them but

you know whatever they're not getting on

board with the style and to me what

happens is like you have a kid they come

back to you and they're like you know um

papa gave me a timeout and we don't do

that in my house and my first thing is I

call my ex that's usually what I do or

the school did this and I called the

school I called the ex and I'm like why

did you do that we don't do that what I

think is really important and I actually

find it very like relieving to as a

parent be like what's actually most

important is helping my kid understand

their experience like we Center the

other person and what they're doing

wrong wrong instead of centering our kid

we might need to call a parent the other

parent and say like hey it would be

really great to get on the same page

could we could we do this course

together that would just be great you

don't have to agree with anything I I

think that would be great but in that

moment what my kid needs actually is

more like wait that's kind of hard

confusing so like in our house when you

do something like you scream I hate you

you know I intervene in one way and when

you go to your dad's house he intervenes

in a very different way it's a lot of

like that's a lot of switching to make

sense of you know or maybe my kid says

um mom never apologizes to me after she

yells and I would call you know or maybe

it's my own wife and I'm like hey you

know the importance of repair haven't

you listened to all this literature you

know I would like to have some influence

on that but what I feel like my kid

needs in the moment is more like tell me

what happened oh oh oh she yelled at you

and yeah look something I know like I

know Mom was I know she had a really

stressful day at work and look this

isn't your responsibility but you can

just know this mom has a really hard

time apologizing to her has a really

hard time apologizing and actually when

people have a hard time apologizing they

seem cold and like they don't care they

actually usually just feel so ashamed of

what they did and the reason I'm telling

you that is not because you have to take

care of her but just so you know this so

wasn't you and anytime something happens

with mom that doesn't feel good and you

feel like you can't resolve it like you

can talk to me and I'm going to get out

of roleplay for a sec but I think you

can see like I'm not throwing my wife

under the bus like at all um but I'm

centering what my kid needs what my kid

needs going back is they need to process

that experience with an adult they feel

safe with rather than being aloneness

and I I often picture like this kid on

the couch who tells me a problem at

their dad's house or at school and I

like go off to make a call and I picture

them alone being like

oh like now I'm alone like I where's

like I didn't really want you to go do

that I just wanted you to like listen to

me you know um there might then be a

step two you know to kind of get on the

same page or when parents say get on the

same page I think the problem is that

we're not like looking at the same page

forget getting on the same page we're

not even speaking the same language like

people say to me my partner won't even

watch a video with me that I just want

to even even if they disagree that is a

problem and frankly that's not a

parenting problem that's also what I'll

say to someone if you say to your

partner

look I've been a member of good inside

and it's been really helpful and it

resonates and you don't have to agree

with it but like I would love to watch

this 4 minute video if your partner says

no that has nothing to do with parenting

that is a core relationship problem that

they just don't care to do something

that you say is important to you that's

a that's a marriage problem that's all

right so and I think it's really

important and we talk about this a lot

like if that was someone I'd coach them

to say hey and you don't have to agree

but if you don't commit to watching a

4minute video with me and just talking

about it a little bit and I promise I'll

try not to be judgy or provy I'll just

listen I don't really think we're

talking about parenting I think you're

telling me you don't really respect me

enough to do the things I'm asking you

to do and that'll that'll stick with me

like that's the way I'd handle

it yeah this is very

helpful I'm curious about these

ADHD diagnoses SLK kids cuz there's a

lot of uh you know um loose hand

diagnosis this day these days um years

ago I was a camp counselor took kids

backpacking and I I learned an important

concept of um when working with

Adolescent and teenage boys which is be

a channel not a dam you know when

they're super energetic like they're not

sitting still where it's not nap time

there's just no way um so this notion of

getting it out like allowing some place

for physical emotional catharsis that's

safe obviously um and then kids have a

lot of energy I mean damn it the adult

population seems to be trying to regress

themselves to have that energy so how