Dr. Adam Grant: How to Unlock Your Potential, Motivation & Unique Abilities

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welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

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where we discuss science and

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science-based tools for everyday

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[Music]

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life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

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professor of neurobiology and

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Opthalmology at Stanford School of

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Medicine my guest today is Dr Adam Grant

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Adam Grant is a professor of

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organizational psychology at the Wharton

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School at University of Pennsylvania he

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has authored five bestselling books and

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most recently has authored a new book

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entitled hidden potential he received

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his bachelor's degree from Harvard

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University and his Doctorate from the

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University of Michigan today we discuss

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peer-reviewed studies and tools based on

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the data from those studies that can

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enable people to meet their goals and

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overcome significant challenges

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including how to overcome

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procrastination as well as how to see

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around or through blind spots as well as

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how to overcome sticking points in

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motivation and creativity we also

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discussed the research on and practical

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tools related to the underpinnings of

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performance in any endeavor including

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how to increase one's confidence and how

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to have a persistent growth mindset by

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the end of today's episode it will be

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clear to you that Dr Adam Grant has an

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absolutely spectacular depth and breadth

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of knowledge and that knowledge is both

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practical it is based on peer-reviewed

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research and he conveys those tools with

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the utmost Clarity and generosity indeed

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by the end of today's episode you will

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have more than a dozen new tools never

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discussed before on the hubman Lab

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podcast that you can apply in your

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academic Endeavors in athletic Endeavors

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in Creative Endeavors in fact in any

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area of life before we begin I'd like to

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emphasize that this podcast is separate

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from my teaching and research roles at

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Stanford it is however part of my desire

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and effort to bring zero cost to

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Consumer information about science and

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science related tools to the general

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public in keeping with that theme I'd

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like to thank the sponsors of today's

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again that's waking up.com huberman to

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access a free 30-day trial and now for

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my discussion with Dr Adam Grant Adam

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welcome excited to be here very excited

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to have you here uh your career both

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public facing and academic career have

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covered an enormous range of topics so

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we have a lot to cover look who's

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talking um and anytime uh two professors

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sit down or even one Professor um says

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we have a lot to cover I think everyone

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listening braces themselves like oh no

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but these topics uh I assure everyone

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are of the utmost interest and you cover

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them in such both fabulous detail and

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you make it very clear so I'm really

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looking forward to this I'd like to

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start off by talking about something

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that I'm obsessed by and I know a lot of

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people are obsessed with and struggle

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with and I know you also have a recent

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publication on this topic which is

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procrastination I am a bit of a

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procrastinator but a different way of

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stating that is that I love deadlines I

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learned in college that I love love love

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deadlines because it seems to harm

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harness my focus and my attention I like

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just enough I guess you call it anxiety

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or autonomic arousal for the you know

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Neuroscience or physiology oriented

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folks for me just brings

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about a total elimination of all of the

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distractors and it seems to both slow

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and accelerate my perception of time and

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it seems to bring out my best to have

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deadlines but I would prefer to not have

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to procrastinate and in order to

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self-impose deadlines I prefer that

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other people impose those deadlines in

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fact so what do we know about

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procrastination why do some people

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complete things well in advance why do

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other people procrastinate is it that

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they're seeking deadlines as I believe I

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am and

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interestingly and sort of alluding to

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this recent paper

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viewers what is the relationship between

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procrastination and creativity I feel

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like we should just deal with all that

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later

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let's put it off no good one uh by the

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way there's extra credit for science

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funds on here so wa done one of the best

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articles on procrastination ever written

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was titled at last my article on

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procrastination fantastic I love it yeah

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it just made me smile um so I think the

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the the basic question I think to start

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with is why do we procrastinate and I I

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thought I was immune actually when I

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came into this topic uh I was the the

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person who annoyed my college roommates

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by finishing my thesis a couple months

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early uh I found out there was a term

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for me I'm a precrastinator uh so the

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you know the focus and the pressure that

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you get from a deadline I get that the

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moment the project starts um and

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sometimes months or years in advance and

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so I was really proud of finishing

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everything early and then I discovered

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there are things that I procrastinate on

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too uh which was a little bit

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disappointing are you willing to share

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what some of those I am uh so I um I

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procrastinate on any that's

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administrative uh so I'm right there

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with you you want to get time on my

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calendar it could take me weeks to

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respond you asked me a question about

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social science I will be back to you in

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a minute um I procrastinate on grading

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takes me forever uh I basically put off

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a whole bunch of tasks that I thought

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had nothing in common it turns out that

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I procrastinate when I'm bored like

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boredom is I guess it's probably my most

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hated emotion and so I will do anything

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to avoid a boring task and I think this

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goes to why people procrastinate which

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is a lot of people think it's laziness

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or you're not disciplined enough but

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actually the the research on this is

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really clear that you're not avoiding

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work when you procrastinate in fact a

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lot of our

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procrastination is is focused on doing

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things that involve a lot of energy

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you've seen people probably clean their

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entire houses when they're putting off a

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task um so it's it's not that you're

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being lazy it's that you're avoiding

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negative emotions that a task stirs up

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so for me it's boredom uh for a lot of

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people it's fear or anxiety uh I don't

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know if I can pull this off uh I have an

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extreme case of impostor syndrome in

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this role um the the challenge in front

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of me is too daunting um for some people

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it's confusion I haven't figured it out

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yet and so like I can't work on this

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because I I feel like I'm stuck um so

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what's I guess the big question for you

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then Andrew is what's what's the emotion

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that causes you to

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procrastinate you know it's hard for me

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to identify the stick here I think of it

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more as the carrot that comes with

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deadlines and again I I don't consider

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myself a procrastinator per se I just

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really love deadlines and

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procrastination is a terrific way to

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simulate the deadline uh so for me so

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you wait so you delay starting or

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finishing a task in order to have a a

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sense of time pressure that's right it

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builds a certain amount of internal

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arousal in me to know okay I've got 72

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hours to complete something and it's now

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game time I like the game time before

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the game time before a podcast I'll put

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in anywhere from you know several days

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to weeks or even months in preparation

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so it's really elastic depending on the

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topic but when it came to exams in

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school or if it comes to writing

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deadlines um I consider the the shipping

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of the product or the presentation of

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the live event that I happened to be

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doing as the second game or event the

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first event is the pressure and the

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excitement of getting into the groove of

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doing focused work because for me that's

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such a drug I mean it feels like all

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having all the systems of my brain and

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body oriented towards one specific thing

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is just sheer Bliss for me so it sounds

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like then you're you're actually not a a

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chronic procrastinator thank you I've

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never that's never been uh the way I

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viewed myself but now I'll I'll I'll

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take that it's a strategy for you it is

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a strategy that's right and ient you

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know I was fairly Wayward youth barely

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finished high school Etc so by time I

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got serious about school which was my

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second year of

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University when deadlines were presented

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like there's an exam there's a midterm

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exam on a given date that was exciting

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to me that was exciting I was like okay

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that's the big thing that's my

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opportunity to to prove myself to myself

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because I was really coming from behind

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and then the opportunity to or I should

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say the the feeling of dropping into

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that Groove like this is the exciting

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part is the preparation you know

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likewise with podcasting for our solo

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podcast I love the research as much as I

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love presenting the material maybe more

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maybe more right likewise for University

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lectures or for traveling and giving

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seminars as a traditional academic I'm

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sure you're familiar with that right

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it's it's the preparation is where you

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realize it's almost like I I think of it

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as somebody like like a minor in a mine

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and just finding a gem and of course

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there then there are all the thoughts of

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what you can do with that later and

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you're going to show people it has a

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certain value to the world Etc but but

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it's the the searching and finding those

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gems that is like even as I talk about

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it I feel like my body's going to float

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out of the chair a little bit I I have

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the same experience it's the it's the

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the sort of the Unleashed curiosity and

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then the rush of Discovery and by the

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time you're teaching it or explaining it

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but I already know this like I'm not

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learning anything anymore and yes I'm

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excited to share it and I hope it's

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helpful to other people so you know I

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think as as you talk about what your

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process looks like I don't even think

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what you do qualifies as procrastination

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technically seem to getting better and

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better I me seriously if if you think

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about how procrastination is is defined

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it's it's delaying despite an expected

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cost and you don't think there's a cost

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you actually see a benefit that's right

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and I've tried starting that's not

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procrastination that's just delay yeah

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I've tried starting things earlier and

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um and I should say that my process

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often begins much earlier than the

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physical process like if I was being

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observed in an experiment be okay you

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know Andrew is finally sitting down to

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write this book chapter or you know

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finally sitting down to research some

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papers for an episode but I'm thinking

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about it all the time yeah I mean much

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to the dismay of people in my life you

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know I'm I'm I'm constantly thinking

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about these things I mean walking to

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take out the

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recycle I'll have ideas and then I'll

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write them down I constantly writing

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things down voice memos into my phone I

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have a method of capture where I

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basically try and just grab everything

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and then filter out what's useful do you

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have a process like that for for

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gleaning ideas a little bit I do now so

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um when when gin and I started this

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research on procrastination she had she

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had come to me she was a very creative

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doctoral student and she said I have my

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best ideas when I'm

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procrastinating and it was it was one of

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those moments where I didn't believe her

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but I thought it was an interesting

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enough idea that it was worth exploring

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and I said show me like get let's get

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some data let's see if we can we can

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test this and she ended up um Gathering

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data in a Korean company where she

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surveyed people on how often they

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procrastinate and then got their

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supervisors to rate their creativity and

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sure enough found that people who

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procrastinate sometimes were rated as

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more creative than people who rarely do

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like me the

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procrastinators and I remember asking

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her what about the chronic

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procrastinators and she's like I don't

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know they never filled out my

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survey yeah as I recall from that paper

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there's inverted u-shaped function with

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procrastination on the vertical axis and

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and um uh and creativity on the

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horizontal axis flipped sorry okay so um

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explain to me then the relationship

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between procrastination and creativity

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Yeah so basically the the peak of

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creativity is in the middle of

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procrastination ah okay got it and yeah

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there's a there's an upside down U curve

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there and so then I thought this was

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fascinating so then you know we go into

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the lab to say can we replicate this can

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we control it in an experiment and the

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hardest part of that was how do you

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randomly assign people to procrastinate

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like to my knowledge never been done

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before and we eventually figured out

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that we could give people a bunch of

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task to do and then temp them with

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highly entertaining YouTube videos uh

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that were sort placed on their screen

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and we put different numbers of YouTube

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videos there so that uh you know if

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there's only one you're not tempted to

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procrastinate much if there are four

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you're probably going to get sucked into

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a little bit of a YouTube spiral if

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there are eight uh you might be putting

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off the task that's much less exciting

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than than you know watching Jimmy

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Kimble's Mean Tweets for example and

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this was done in a fairly naturalistic

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environment for these folks people are

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people are on in a computer they're

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they're asked to you know to solve some

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creative problems that look pretty

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similar to what you might do in your job

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and then we're going to score your

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creativity later and um it turned out

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that the people who were attempted to

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procrastinate moderately um ended up

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generating the most creative ideas so

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why is that um there are a couple things

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that happen and you have to look at both

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sides of the curve so what's wrong with

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the procrastinators and also what

Time: 1010.44

happens to the the extreme

Time: 1012.6

procrastinators um and in both cases

Time: 1014.639

what happens is um you end up with a

Time: 1016.24

little bit of tunnel vision so um when I

Time: 1019.399

dive right into a task I'm stuck with my

Time: 1021.319

first ideas and I don't wait long enough

Time: 1023.8

to incubate and get my best ideas um I'm

Time: 1026.64

less likely to reframe the problem I'm

Time: 1028.799

less likely to access remote knowledge

Time: 1030.439

because I'm just I'm just diving right

Time: 1031.799

in and meanwhile The Chronic

Time: 1034.16

procrastinators um end up in the same

Time: 1035.959

boat because they don't get started

Time: 1037.76

until the last minute and so they have

Time: 1039.199

to rush ahead with the easiest idea to

Time: 1041.079

implement as opposed to really

Time: 1042.64

developing the most novel idea and

Time: 1044.64

meanwhile the the people in the middle

Time: 1046.36

who you know are starting to feel that

Time: 1048.12

pressure of like wow I you know I kind

Time: 1050.559

of Spun my wheels for 10 minutes

Time: 1052.24

watching a bunch of YouTube videos I'm

Time: 1053.48

running out of time for this task they

Time: 1055.24

still have enough time to work on the

Time: 1057.16

ideas that were active in the back of

Time: 1058.52

their minds and and that gives them a

Time: 1060.44

shot at more novel ideas so I've tried

Time: 1062.72

to adopt this to answer your question

Time: 1064.039

I've tried to adopt this as my process

Time: 1065.52

now to say I will still dive into a

Time: 1067.88

project ahead of schedule but I will not

Time: 1069.799

commit to an idea until I've let it

Time: 1071.84

incubate for a few weeks and I'm working

Time: 1073.76

on other things whereas an earlier

Time: 1075.559

version of me like when I'd sit down to

Time: 1076.919

write a book um soon as I had the book

Time: 1079

idea I would start writing on day one

Time: 1081.039

now I have the idea I file it away and I

Time: 1082.96

give myself at least a month before I

Time: 1084.919

begin drafting um and I think it feels

Time: 1088.2

less productive but it's far more

Time: 1090.24

creative what are your thoughts about

Time: 1092.96

some of what you described being an

Time: 1096.24

unconscious way of seeding the mind and

Time: 1099.44

the unconscious within idea so for

Time: 1101.32

instance uh let's take a a School

Time: 1104.08

academic scenario where um students get

Time: 1106.4

an assignment and the assignment is

Time: 1108

contain within a folder and it just says

Time: 1110.36

assignment okay and it's a doe on a

Time: 1112.72

particular date and it says do on that

Time: 1114.96

particular date and they're given the

Time: 1116.559

folder but they have no sense of what

Time: 1118.08

the assignment is you can imagine one

Time: 1120.6

category of procrastinator that will

Time: 1122.52

take that thing and put it down and

Time: 1124.88

avoid looking at it entirely versus

Time: 1127.44

another category of procrastinator that

Time: 1129

will Flip Flip it open and take a look

Time: 1130.76

at okay this is going to be an essay on

Time: 1133.28

you know um I don't know something about

Time: 1135.6

economic theory in the late 1700s close

Time: 1139

it and then

Time: 1140.4

procrastinate there is an idea which I

Time: 1143.08

frankly I subscribe to a little bit um

Time: 1145.76

because we recently did this series on

Time: 1147.76

Mental Health not Mental Illness but

Time: 1149.32

mental health with Dr Paul kti where he

Time: 1151.36

talked extensively about the unconscious

Time: 1154.159

and how the unconscious mind is always

Time: 1155.72

working with ideas things that we are

Time: 1157.559

concerned about performance these sorts

Time: 1159.559

of things even if we're not aware of

Time: 1160.919

them um what what are your thoughts

Time: 1163.48

about the creativity that seeded by

Time: 1166.159

slight procrastination being related to

Time: 1169.159

actually knowing what you're

Time: 1170.28

procrastinating on specifically I I

Time: 1172.52

think it turns out to be I don't want to

Time: 1174.039

say essential but

Time: 1175.559

critical so one of the things we found

Time: 1178.4

is in order for moderate procrastination

Time: 1181.08

to fuel creativity you have to be

Time: 1182.96

intrinsically motivated by the thing

Time: 1184.48

you're procrastinating on interesting

Time: 1186.6

and so what what happens is if if you if

Time: 1189.48

you're bored for example by the topic

Time: 1191.4

you're not going to open the folder

Time: 1193.2

you're not going to start thinking about

Time: 1194.559

it at all it's not going to begin you're

Time: 1196.679

not going to do any subconscious

Time: 1197.799

processing you're not going to have any

Time: 1199.64

unexpected connections um between this

Time: 1202.4

topic and something else you've learned

Time: 1204

uh learned about or been curious about

Time: 1206.36

if you're interested in the problem then

Time: 1208.84

when you put it off you're much more

Time: 1210.64

likely to still keep it active in the

Time: 1212.32

back of your mind and that's when when

Time: 1214.039

you begin to to see you know I I imagine

Time: 1217.36

you could explain the biology of this um

Time: 1219.84

I I imagine for example there's um

Time: 1222.72

there's probably um there are probably

Time: 1225.159

more neural networks um that are

Time: 1227.559

connecting um You probably get you get

Time: 1230.96

access to ideas that previously would

Time: 1233.4

have been um sort of separate nodes and

Time: 1236.76

so I think that you you want to know

Time: 1238.72

what the topic is right you don't want

Time: 1240.039

to just see the blank assignment but you

Time: 1241.799

also have to find a reason that this is

Time: 1243.32

exciting to you um otherwise you're

Time: 1245.08

going to avoid it as opposed to letting

Time: 1246.799

it

Time: 1247.48

percolate that brings us to the topic of

Time: 1249.799

intrinsic motivation um and I'd like to

Time: 1252.96

link that up with the topic of

Time: 1254.559

performance so when I was in university

Time: 1258.28

uh there were many topics that I was

Time: 1259.679

excited to learn about some more than

Time: 1261.039

others of course um but occasionally I'd

Time: 1263.72

be in a class or I'd get an assignment

Time: 1265.52

that frankly I had minimal interest in

Time: 1269.24

never zero but minimal interest and as a

Time: 1273.159

way of dealing with that I embarked on a

Time: 1274.679

process of literally lying to myself and

Time: 1277.799

just telling myself okay I'm super

Time: 1279.679

interested in reading this and I'm going

Time: 1281.159

to force myself to be interested in

Time: 1282.76

reading it and lo and behold I would

Time: 1285.44

start falling in love with certain

Time: 1286.76

things maybe he was was even the um you

Time: 1289.72

know the arrival of a word that I didn't

Time: 1291.72

recognize and then I would go look it up

Time: 1293.72

and I knew I was studying for the gr at

Time: 1295.36

that time so I file that away I still

Time: 1297

have my notebooks of all the vocabulary

Time: 1298.84

words that I learned in the course of my

Time: 1301.48

university courses that frankly made the

Time: 1303.64

verbal portion of the GRE pretty easy

Time: 1306.799

you know which if you ever try and study

Time: 1308.76

for that at the end it's pretty tough to

Time: 1310.159

commit all those new words to uh to

Time: 1311.919

memory and context so I could find

Time: 1314.919

little hooks and and through those hooks

Time: 1317.88

I could kind of Ratchet my way into a

Time: 1319.36

larger interest and then lo and behold

Time: 1321.44

I'm really interested in Greek mythology

Time: 1323.44

you know or that actually like that one

Time: 1325.159

at first but um I didn't have to trick

Time: 1327.279

myself but you know maybe we could spend

Time: 1330.559

a little bit of time talking about what

Time: 1331.919

is true intrinsic

Time: 1333.72

motivation is it always

Time: 1336.08

reflexive uh can we make ourselves

Time: 1340.039

intrinsically motivated about a given

Time: 1342.64

topic or scenario or group of people uh

Time: 1346.52

and then let's talk about how intrinsic

Time: 1348.08

motivation links to Performance because

Time: 1349.52

there's a rich literature on this as I

Time: 1350.96

recall and I remember you know the

Time: 1352.12

Stanford study of rewarding kids for

Time: 1353.919

things they were already in motivated to

Time: 1355.64

do maybe we could touch on that a little

Time: 1357

bit and remind people who haven't heard

Time: 1358.2

about it but I'm fascinated by this

Time: 1360.08

topic because I feel like so much of

Time: 1362.039

life is about doing things that

Time: 1363.88

initially we don't feel that excited to

Time: 1366.159

do yeah and yet succeeding in life you

Time: 1368.76

know until you can afford to offload

Time: 1370.52

your uh administrative work to somebody

Time: 1372.559

else which hopefully by by now you have

Time: 1375.48

find a way to get it done right uh this

Time: 1378.08

is fundamental to being a functional

Time: 1379.76

human being frankly not just successful

Time: 1382.96

in air quotes but functional we got to

Time: 1385.64

do stuff that we don't enjoy doing yeah

Time: 1388.12

so I think we we can talk about a couple

Time: 1390.2

different ways to nurture intrinsic

Time: 1391.559

motivation we could think about how the

Time: 1393.4

task itself is designed we can think

Time: 1394.84

about reward systems and then we can

Time: 1396.44

think about also the things we say to

Time: 1398

ourselves and others which I hope are

Time: 1400.2

not lies but rather U persuasive

Time: 1404.24

attempts uh let's let's start on that

Time: 1406.12

one actually I I don't know a lot of

Time: 1407.64

people who are that good at deliberate

Time: 1410.24

self-deception well well I like to think

Time: 1412.24

it was only around a particular set of

Time: 1414.44

uh goal motivated Pursuits um but at

Time: 1418.08

that time for me also was survival as I

Time: 1419.919

mentioned I didn't do well in high

Time: 1421.32

school I really wanted to perform well

Time: 1423.32

in University but I knew that working

Time: 1426.4

just for the grade wasn't going to carry

Time: 1428.48

me it was it it felt

Time: 1430.76

catabolic um and I don't know maybe I at

Time: 1434.32

that age I was still in the window of

Time: 1436.279

heightened neuroplasticity we know it

Time: 1438.279

never closes but um but I think I also

Time: 1441.4

fell in love with the process of

Time: 1443.52

learning how to do what I just described

Time: 1445.44

yeah so I think for most people the best

Time: 1448.159

method of self-persuasion is actually to

Time: 1449.88

convince somebody else uh so I'm

Time: 1451.72

thinking of Elliot Aronson's classic

Time: 1453.2

research on cognitive dissonance where

Time: 1455.44

he would he would ask you to go and tell

Time: 1458.12

somebody else a task you hated is really

Time: 1461.159

interesting and if he paid you a lot to

Time: 1463.4

do it you still hated the task because

Time: 1465.679

you had a justification like I got 20 to

Time: 1468.48

you know to kind of FIB a little bit

Time: 1470.52

about this task um you know the task is

Time: 1473.2

bad but I did it for the for the payment

Time: 1476

when he paid you $1 to go and tell

Time: 1478.2

somebody that you loved a task that you

Time: 1479.799

didn't you ended up liking it more wow

Time: 1483.24

and maybe I shouldn't be surprised but

Time: 1485.799

maybe you should tell me why I shouldn't

Time: 1487.039

be surprised because I hope people got

Time: 1489.72

what you just said very clearly and if

Time: 1491.559

they didn't if you don't like doing

Time: 1493.64

something going and reporting to

Time: 1495.039

somebody else how great that thing is so

Time: 1496.96

lying about it to somebody else um is

Time: 1500.08

one way to increase the degree to which

Time: 1502.679

you like or enjoy that behavior or topic

Time: 1506.76

and if you're paid $20 to go lie to

Time: 1509.279

somebody in the positive

Time: 1511.279

direction so against your true belief

Time: 1513.96

it's less effective in shifting your

Time: 1516.159

underlying AFF effect about that thing

Time: 1518.039

your emotions than if you're paid less

Time: 1519.72

correct yeah exactly now I think

Time: 1521.72

obviously in the experiment lying was an

Time: 1524.24

easy way to to show the effect but in

Time: 1526.84

real life I think that way that you want

Time: 1528.159

to apply this is to say all right I've

Time: 1530.32

got to find something about this task

Time: 1532.039

that's interesting to me and then in the

Time: 1534.399

process of explaining it to somebody

Time: 1535.84

else I'm going to convince myself

Time: 1537.64

because I'm hearing the argument from

Time: 1539.44

somebody I already like and

Time: 1541.559

trust and I've also chosen I've chosen

Time: 1544.64

the the reasons that I find compelling

Time: 1546.84

as opposed to hearing somebody else's

Time: 1548.64

reasons and so I think this this goes to

Time: 1551.279

the point that you were making which is

Time: 1553.88

if if you're trying to to find a hook to

Time: 1556.279

make a topic intriguing um you've got to

Time: 1558.52

figure out okay what is it that would

Time: 1559.88

make this fascinating to me and you in a

Time: 1562.88

lot of cases what you're looking for is

Time: 1563.96

a curiosity Gap um I think social

Time: 1566.24

scientists like to talk about curiosity

Time: 1567.88

as an itch that you have to scratch um

Time: 1570.88

so there's something you want to know

Time: 1572.279

and you don't know it yet so I would say

Time: 1574.84

I I tell my students often like take

Time: 1577.399

your least favorite class and find a

Time: 1579.159

mystery or a puzzle like something that

Time: 1581.36

you you just do not know the answer to

Time: 1584

um like I actually I've talked with our

Time: 1585.679

kids about this like what what really

Time: 1587.159

happened to King TD do you know can you

Time: 1590.08

get to the bottom of that and all of a

Time: 1591.559

sudden you're like I wonder I need to

Time: 1593.44

Google it and then I need to see if

Time: 1594.559

Wikipedia has credible information on

Time: 1596.279

this and the more you learn about that

Time: 1598.2

the more intriguing it becomes and I

Time: 1600.12

think that's that's the beginning of the

Time: 1601.52

process of of finding intrinsic

Time: 1603.12

motivation I see

Time: 1605.279

so inherent in your answer is the idea

Time: 1608.44

that there's something wired into our

Time: 1611.24

neural circuits and therefore

Time: 1614.039

psychology that Curiosity as a verb

Time: 1618.919

the act of being curious and seeking

Time: 1621.32

information where well and I should say

Time: 1623.679

I Define curiosity and I hopefully

Time: 1625.399

you'll disagree with me or agree either

Time: 1627.159

way it doesn't matter as long as we can

Time: 1628.64

get a bit deeper understanding I Define

Time: 1630.399

curiosity as a desire to find something

Time: 1632.84

out where you are not attached to a

Time: 1635.08

particular outcome yes is that right

Time: 1637.84

yeah I I in Psychology is typically

Time: 1639.52

defined as just wanting to know and that

Time: 1641.919

means you're driven by the question not

Time: 1643.48

a particular answer which is exactly

Time: 1645.2

what you're driving at okay great so and

Time: 1647.12

I think it Dorothy Parker that said um

Time: 1649.96

the cure for boredom is curiosity

Time: 1652.2

there's no cure for curiosity as there

Time: 1654.799

there shouldn't be a care for curiosity

Time: 1656.48

right so um and by the way folks we

Time: 1659.039

don't know what neural circuits subserve

Time: 1662.12

curiosity in the brain it's it's a got

Time: 1663.679

to be a distributed Network there's no

Time: 1665.08

brain area for curiosity but it's got to

Time: 1667.2

be linked up with the reward systems of

Time: 1669.12

dopamine Etc in some way because when

Time: 1671.039

one discovers something new that

Time: 1673.24

satisfies some curiosity it's clearly

Time: 1676.559

there's a there's a internal reward

Time: 1678.44

there okay let me back up so if your

Time: 1681.519

child or an adult

Time: 1684.279

is dreading working exploring a topic or

Time: 1689.12

going about an assignment of any kind um

Time: 1691.96

you will give them a question that they

Time: 1693.679

then need to resolve what if the the

Time: 1695.88

assignment is like rake the leaves off

Time: 1698.039

the front lawn do you uh do you say you

Time: 1700.64

know um count the leaves or I mean how

Time: 1703.519

does one get um past the sort of um

Time: 1706.559

procrastination

Time: 1708.039

and generate some intrinsic motivation

Time: 1710

for things that one dreads where it's

Time: 1712.36

unlikely that they're going to discover

Time: 1713.919

some knowledge that's exceedingly useful

Time: 1715.88

for the for future you always start with

Time: 1718.08

with okay what's what's the first

Time: 1719.84

experiment I can run find the most

Time: 1721.24

interesting looking leaf for your

Time: 1722.48

favorite leaf and then that that lasts

Time: 1723.96

for about two minutes and like okay now

Time: 1725.96

what we still have a lot of leaves there

Time: 1727.279

right I think not all tasks can be made

Time: 1729.36

intrinsically motivating to everyone and

Time: 1731.48

so when when intrinsic motivation is

Time: 1733.399

difficult to find what you want to

Time: 1734.24

substitute with is um is a sense of

Time: 1736.159

purpose um maybe a better way to say

Time: 1738.279

that is um when the process is not

Time: 1740.08

interesting to you um you need to find a

Time: 1741.919

meaningful outcome so there's uh there's

Time: 1744.919

some research on um on the boring but

Time: 1748

important effect where kids who have a

Time: 1751.039

purpose for learning um this goes

Time: 1752.84

through high school and think you know

Time: 1755.039

this is not just interesting to me but

Time: 1756.919

I'm going to be able to use this

Time: 1758.08

knowledge to um to help other people one

Time: 1760.32

day um they they're more persistent in

Time: 1762.6

their studying they end up getting

Time: 1763.799

better grades and so I think you know

Time: 1766

intrinsic motivation is often driven by

Time: 1767.84

curiosity about the how um a sense of

Time: 1770.2

purpose comes from really thinking hard

Time: 1771.799

about the why why does this matter and

Time: 1774.159

so I'd say with the you know the raking

Time: 1776.159

leaves let's try to connect that task to

Time: 1778.24

something else that you care about um

Time: 1780.279

are you going to um you know pleasantly

Time: 1782.32

surprise your parents when they get home

Time: 1784.72

um are you going to um you know have a

Time: 1788

place to play soccer that you didn't

Time: 1789.84

before um and I think then the you know

Time: 1793.08

the the process of of getting to that I

Time: 1795.64

guess what I'd say is if you're trying

Time: 1797.159

to motivate yourself um it's a little

Time: 1800.24

bit harder than if you're trying to

Time: 1801.2

motivate somebody else on this um if I

Time: 1802.76

was going to motivate somebody else I

Time: 1804

would take a a page out of the

Time: 1805.44

motivational interviewing Playbook where

Time: 1807.679

I would say Okay Andrew actually let's

Time: 1808.84

play this out for a second so you're

Time: 1810

going to rake a pile of leaves it's a

Time: 1811.399

two-hour task 0 to 10 how excited are

Time: 1813.96

you about that a three three really I'm

Time: 1818.48

surprised I I thought you were gonna say

Time: 1819.72

zero or one why is it not lower uh I

Time: 1823.12

like any sort of physical activity

Time: 1825

because it allows me to move and I just

Time: 1827

like moving my body there we go okay so

Time: 1829.44

you just identified a potential source

Time: 1831.799

of purpose for that activity um and I'm

Time: 1834.76

I don't have a I don't have a vested

Time: 1836.159

interest in convincing you to do this

Time: 1837.6

task I am genuinely curious about what

Time: 1840.12

would motivate you to want to do it and

Time: 1842.519

as you start to articulate it boom self-

Time: 1844.399

persuasion kicks

Time: 1845.88

in love it um I'm going to start using

Time: 1848.72

these uh these approaches um try at your

Time: 1851.48

own

Time: 1852.24

risk as we all know quality nutrition

Time: 1855.08

influences of course our physical health

Time: 1856.88

but also Al our mental health and our

Time: 1858.84

cognitive functioning our memory our

Time: 1860.36

ability to learn new things and to focus

Time: 1862.6

and we know that one of the most

Time: 1863.72

important features of high quality

Time: 1865.48

nutrition is making sure that we get

Time: 1867.12

enough vitamins and minerals from high

Time: 1869.159

quality unprocessed or minimally

Time: 1871.039

processed sources as well as enough

Time: 1872.96

probiotics and prebiotics and fiber to

Time: 1875.559

support basically all the cellular

Time: 1877.36

functions in our body including the gut

Time: 1879.44

microbiome now I like most everybody try

Time: 1882.76

to get optimal nutrition from Whole

Time: 1884.919

Foods ideally mostly from minimally

Time: 1887.76

processed or non-processed Foods however

Time: 1890.08

one of the challenges that I and so many

Time: 1891.6

other people face is getting enough

Time: 1893.24

servings of highquality fruits and

Time: 1894.84

vegetables per day as well as fiber and

Time: 1897.08

probiotics that often accompany those

Time: 1898.72

fruits and vegetables that's why way

Time: 1900.559

back in 2012 long before I ever had a

Time: 1903.039

podcast I started drinking ag1 and so

Time: 1906.12

I'm delighted that ag1 is sponsoring the

Time: 1908.039

huberman Lab podcast the reason I

Time: 1910

started taking ag1 and the reason I

Time: 1911.88

still drink ag1 once or twice a day is

Time: 1914.72

that it provides all of my foundational

Time: 1916.519

nutritional needs needs that is it

Time: 1918.039

provides insurance that I get the proper

Time: 1920.519

amounts of those vitamins minerals

Time: 1922.159

probiotics and fiber to ensure optimal

Time: 1925.159

mental health physical health and

Time: 1926.919

performance if you'd like to try ag1 you

Time: 1929.44

can go to drink a1.com huberman to claim

Time: 1932.919

a special offer they're giving away five

Time: 1934.96

free travel packs plus a year supply of

Time: 1937.12

vitamin D3 K2 again that's drink a1.com

Time: 1941.08

huberman to claim that special offer I

Time: 1944.36

have a question about externs

Time: 1947.72

motivation so

Time: 1950.2

if we grow up being incentivized by

Time: 1954

extrinsic things you know um you'll get

Time: 1956

your allowance if you blank um you can

Time: 1961.12

spend the money that you make and you

Time: 1962.679

know on your paper route doing the

Time: 1965

things you really want to

Time: 1966.6

do is there any value in those kinds of

Time: 1970.32

learning based incentives um for kids

Time: 1972.96

and for adults because I mean that's the

Time: 1974.72

real world as well I know I know plenty

Time: 1976.48

of people I family members that only

Time: 1978.399

work for a paycheck and they're pretty

Time: 1981.279

okay because they like spending their

Time: 1983.12

paycheck probably more than I you know

Time: 1985.2

I'm not intrinsically attached to money

Time: 1987.039

I mean I certainly have needs in in life

Time: 1988.76

but but I don't enjoy spending money for

Time: 1991.76

the sake of spending it or for gaining

Time: 1993.679

more possessions but I know people that

Time: 1995.44

do and I certainly don't judge um are

Time: 1998.44

they somehow existing in a um in a

Time: 2001.559

diminished landscape of happiness or or

Time: 2004.559

because they seem pretty happy to me uh

Time: 2006.639

but they seem to have also worked out

Time: 2008

this relationship they do certain things

Time: 2009.84

to get the extrinsic rewards and they

Time: 2012.32

really enjoy what they can do with those

Time: 2013.76

extrinsic rewards there's a so there's a

Time: 2016.84

huge body of evidence on what are the

Time: 2019.24

effects of extrinsic rewards on

Time: 2021.2

motivation and performance and I think

Time: 2023.6

the latest conclusions if you look at

Time: 2025

the the latest meta analyses so you know

Time: 2027.159

huge study of studies trying to

Time: 2028.44

accumulate like what's the average

Time: 2030.24

effect of adding a financial incentive

Time: 2032.2

to a task that wasn't incentivized

Time: 2034.32

before or to a job where you know you

Time: 2036.44

were paid salary and now we're going to

Time: 2037.679

give you incentive compensation um there

Time: 2040.279

is a boost so in general um people are

Time: 2044.559

are more productive when they're

Time: 2046.159

incentivized for their output but um

Time: 2049.04

these incentives are better for uh for

Time: 2050.72

motivating quantity than quality so you

Time: 2053.159

see people get more done but they're not

Time: 2055.119

necessarily more careful or more

Time: 2056.679

thorough are they less careful and less

Time: 2059.359

thorough no um actually they're there's

Time: 2061.119

still positive effects on average

Time: 2062.44

they're just weaker um and of course you

Time: 2064.32

could then start to say well how do I

Time: 2065.599

incentivize you know being fast and

Time: 2068.24

careful um but I think where where we do

Time: 2072.2

have to be really cautious is um there's

Time: 2075.119

an undermining effect of extrinsic

Time: 2076.919

rewards on intrinsic motivation and you

Time: 2078.44

were you were alluding to this earlier

Time: 2079.72

dating back to the early 70s where we

Time: 2081.879

know that if we take an interesting task

Time: 2083.679

and then we pay you for it you might

Time: 2085.52

conclude that you're only doing it for

Time: 2086.8

the outcome and you lose interest in the

Time: 2088.399

task so the the classic demonstration

Time: 2090

Mark leper and colleagues is kids

Time: 2091.839

playing video games and they're um

Time: 2094.679

they're playing them because they're fun

Time: 2096.159

and then you start to add in an

Time: 2098.32

incentive and then when the incentive is

Time: 2100.64

taken away they don't want to play

Time: 2101.72

anymore because the meaning of the task

Time: 2103.68

has changed and now I'm doing it because

Time: 2105.28

I want to get something out of it as

Time: 2106.4

opposed to I love the

Time: 2107.839

process I think that that um that

Time: 2111.119

phenomenon um does not have to exist so

Time: 2113.96

we know for example at work um if

Time: 2116.24

managers uh as long as they give people

Time: 2118.24

autonomy um they don't present the

Time: 2120.04

rewards in a controlling way um so

Time: 2122.44

instead of saying you know Andrew in

Time: 2124.44

order to earn this you need to do the

Time: 2126.48

following work uh if they say hey look

Time: 2128.96

you know I'd really love it if you you

Time: 2130.88

know if you would deliver the following

Time: 2134.16

um and in order to make that worth your

Time: 2135.599

while I'm offering this incentive people

Time: 2137.64

react very differently when they have a

Time: 2139.24

sense of choice and control um so I

Time: 2142.76

think that that's I guess the starting

Time: 2144.119

point in the presence of autonomy I

Time: 2145.68

don't I don't think there's a major

Time: 2147.119

downside of of extrinsic rewards I think

Time: 2150.04

you also have to be careful that um yeah

Time: 2153.4

I guess that you're not over justifying

Time: 2154.8

the task in other words you're not um

Time: 2157.48

you're not swamping people's intrinsic

Time: 2159.52

reason for doing it but you're adding a

Time: 2161.56

reason to try it so actually um if we if

Time: 2165.119

we go to a different domain for a second

Time: 2166.8

so um look at kids who don't want to eat

Time: 2169.359

their vegetables extrs and incentives

Time: 2171.359

are very effective to get kids to try

Time: 2173.4

vegetables for the first time but then

Time: 2176.04

the hope is that they discover a

Time: 2177.76

vegetable or two that they don't mind

Time: 2179.88

and then they find reasons to keep doing

Time: 2182.16

it um and I think that that's how I want

Time: 2185.48

a lot of rewards to work I don't think

Time: 2187.96

that rewards should be carrots that we

Time: 2190.359

dangle to try to control people's

Time: 2192.28

behavior I think they should be symbols

Time: 2194.319

of how much we appreciate and value a

Time: 2196

particular behavior and if you frame

Time: 2197.8

them that way it's a lot easier for

Time: 2199.52

people to say yeah you know what I'm

Time: 2201.92

that that reward is something that I

Time: 2203.28

really want but I'm I'm not only doing

Time: 2206.2

the task for that reward yeah that that

Time: 2208.56

you basically answered the question I

Time: 2209.76

was going to ask which is and you know

Time: 2211.92

at risk of sounding new Agy um but we

Time: 2214.28

are sitting in California um

Time: 2217.8

I could imagine that when one is focused

Time: 2219.88

on the extrinsic rewards so a physical

Time: 2223.079

task or a cognitive task for an exic

Time: 2225.839

reward if I'm focusing on the exic

Time: 2228.119

reward I'm also air quotes again not

Time: 2231.44

present right I'm I'm thinking about the

Time: 2233.64

outcome I'm not thinking about process

Time: 2236.56

and I think there's perhaps you can

Time: 2239.28

flesh out some of what this is exactly

Time: 2240.88

but I think there's a fairly extensive

Time: 2243.599

um data to support the idea that when we

Time: 2245.72

are physically and mentally present to

Time: 2247.92

the task that we're going to perform

Time: 2249.319

better and presumably our our um

Time: 2251.839

intrinsic liking of that task or

Time: 2254.119

performing that task increases as well

Time: 2256.2

is that true yeah I think so I think so

Time: 2258.72

if we want to break down the mechanisms

Time: 2259.92

for why intrinsic motivation is useful

Time: 2261.64

for for performance um one you touched

Time: 2264.04

on earlier it's focus of attention um

Time: 2266.04

you're it's much easier to find flow

Time: 2267.44

when you're intrinsically motivated you

Time: 2268.68

get into that state of deep absorption

Time: 2270.64

where uh time melts away so you

Time: 2272.76

mentioned you know sort of either

Time: 2274.48

speeding up or slowing down your your

Time: 2276.2

sense of time you forget where you are

Time: 2278.4

sometimes you even lose track of your

Time: 2279.68

identity and you're just you're just

Time: 2281.319

merged into the task uh and so that that

Time: 2284.359

that concentration is helpful there's

Time: 2286.4

also a greater persistence effect that

Time: 2288.76

when you enjoy what you're doing you're

Time: 2290.079

less likely to give up in the face of

Time: 2291.359

obstacles uh you're more likely to think

Time: 2293.64

about it when you're not doing the task

Time: 2295.119

and come up with great ideas and so um

Time: 2297.88

you know I think there's there's a

Time: 2298.96

working harder there's a working longer

Time: 2300.599

there's a working smarter and there's

Time: 2302.16

also a thinking more clearly

Time: 2305.52

effect this is a uh brief but related

Time: 2309.839

tangent one of the things that I've

Time: 2311.72

found incredibly difficult in recent

Time: 2314.4

years is that um you know most of my

Time: 2316.88

life really since I was a small kid I

Time: 2318.44

was forging for things and then you know

Time: 2320.24

I used to give lectures on Monday in

Time: 2322

class if they let me until they

Time: 2323.359

eventually stopped me about the stuff I

Time: 2324.72

was reading about all weekend so got an

Time: 2326.56

early start in the the professorial um

Time: 2329.28

front but now if I'm reading something

Time: 2333.64

and I discover a what I think is a

Time: 2336.359

really really valuable piece of

Time: 2337.599

information or a tool or a protocol I'm

Time: 2340.16

like wow this is really cool these

Time: 2341.599

findings are oh so cool there's a

Time: 2343.8

problem which is that now I have an

Time: 2347.24

opportunity to cast that out to the

Time: 2348.839

world through social media we all do

Time: 2352.28

this could be wait I'm sorry you're on

Time: 2353.92

social media um from time to time I

Time: 2357.079

you're all over my feet uh you and and I

Time: 2359.359

both do our own social media by the way

Time: 2361.44

which I really appreciate I think one

Time: 2363.16

can always detect if if someone else is

Time: 2364.88

handling someone's Social Media so yes

Time: 2366.839

I'm on social media and and I love that

Time: 2368.839

I have the opportunity to both um send

Time: 2371.4

out ideas and information and also

Time: 2373.28

receive feedback I really love the

Time: 2374.92

comment section um and always encourage

Time: 2377.52

comments I learn from it uh frankly love

Time: 2379.64

is a strong word I learn from it you

Time: 2381.359

know and and you and I were weaned in

Time: 2383

the academic culture where frankly the

Time: 2385.119

the kind of hazing that that one

Time: 2386.8

receives in academic culture is very

Time: 2388.16

different than the kind of hazing that

Time: 2389.359

one receives on social media but um

Time: 2392.079

let's just say that if you come up

Time: 2393.48

through Academia you develop a pretty

Time: 2394.92

thick skin um I agree I I do have to say

Time: 2397.64

though that there there was a part of me

Time: 2399

that was really surprised when I started

Time: 2400.48

posting on social that I love I love

Time: 2403.28

constructive criticism I was unprepared

Time: 2405.68

for the number of people who will

Time: 2407.04

knee-jerk criticize a study without even

Time: 2409.119

looking at whether the methods are

Time: 2410.28

rigorous right I'm like come on if I

Time: 2412.04

posted this surely it's at least worth

Time: 2414.24

considering the possibility that there's

Time: 2415.72

strong evidence behind it right well

Time: 2417.04

that's where a uh a um a brief uh I

Time: 2420.599

wanton to call it a rhetoric but a

Time: 2421.8

response of you know um you

Time: 2424.119

know clearly should read the study

Time: 2427.359

further because I think you'll be

Time: 2428.52

satisfied with the answer or something I

Time: 2430.2

don't know um but I agree it it can be a

Time: 2432.76

little bit harsh in there sometimes but

Time: 2434.839

you know the social media uh channels

Time: 2437.96

are I think have you know they have it's

Time: 2440.28

a double-edged blade um they obviously

Time: 2442.079

have their issues but um can be a

Time: 2443.76

wonderful opportunity to share

Time: 2445.24

information and share it quickly the

Time: 2447.119

problem is that it takes me out of what

Time: 2450

I was doing initially which was learning

Time: 2451.68

searching for those gems with with which

Time: 2453.88

to share later and I think there's a

Time: 2455.96

broader landscape to consider this where

Time: 2458.24

people for instance are uh I was at the

Time: 2460.56

beach yesterday it was just absolutely

Time: 2463.24

spectacular day at the beach uh

Time: 2465.359

especially for this time of year and

Time: 2467.4

everyone was taking pictures of that

Time: 2468.92

experience on their phone and probably

Time: 2470.92

sharing that experience either social

Time: 2472.48

media or with friends um this is very

Time: 2475.44

different than taking a photograph and

Time: 2477.599

not seeing that photograph until later

Time: 2479.48

or not sending it out and so there are

Time: 2482.68

now near infinite number of

Time: 2484.8

circumstances where we are taken out of

Time: 2487.599

the rewarding experience I should

Time: 2489.56

rephrase that we are taking ourselves

Time: 2491.76

out of the rewarding experience and

Time: 2493.52

focusing on a different rewarding

Time: 2495.92

experience that I think by definition is

Time: 2497.839

an extrinsic reward so we are taking

Time: 2500.24

ourselves out of our intrinsically

Time: 2502.119

rewarding experiences and activating

Time: 2505.2

these extrinsic rewards and do you think

Time: 2507.24

in any way that's undermining our

Time: 2508.92

experience of things that we really

Time: 2510.359

enjoy um again not to demonize social

Time: 2513.079

media or these channels but um I've

Time: 2515.839

personally found it difficult to refrain

Time: 2518.16

from sharing this knowledge I'm so

Time: 2520.16

excited to share but I deliberately

Time: 2522.04

delay and there's a lot I have a deep

Time: 2523.839

list of folders full of things that I

Time: 2526.079

want to post but I'm just doing it you

Time: 2529.52

know systematically over time because I

Time: 2531.56

really fight the temptation to to do

Time: 2533.28

this mostly because I want to continue

Time: 2534.76

to enjoy this learning process and this

Time: 2537.16

seeking process so much yeah I I feel

Time: 2539.72

the same the same um I feel torn I think

Time: 2544.28

I think it was eie white who said uh I I

Time: 2547.04

rise in the morning Torn Between the

Time: 2549.079

desire to enjoy the world and the desire

Time: 2550.64

to improve the world and this makes it

Time: 2552.72

difficult to plan the day and I I I feel

Time: 2555.28

that every day I think I mean I I even I

Time: 2558.839

felt it this morning I was like okay

Time: 2560.559

it's time to it's time to leave to to

Time: 2562.4

come to the the hman podcast I'm like

Time: 2565.28

wait but I I I didn't hit my minimum

Time: 2568.2

sunlight viewing so what what do I do do

Time: 2570.599

I show up on time for you or do I meet

Time: 2572.559

your criteria the the um the explanation

Time: 2575.76

I wasting getting my morning sunlight

Time: 2577.119

and therefore I'm X number of minutes or

Time: 2578.92

even hours late would have been

Time: 2580.4

completely fine I figured as much that's

Time: 2583.52

that's a built-in acceptable excuse with

Time: 2585.44

you I think I mean I think everybody

Time: 2588.079

experiences a version of this and um

Time: 2590.72

it's definitely gotten worse with uh

Time: 2592.8

with social media and with smartphones

Time: 2594.8

um I think so one of the the most

Time: 2596.92

startling data points for me was um

Time: 2598.68

Gloria Mark first put this on my radar

Time: 2601.559

uh before covid the average person was

Time: 2603.359

checking email 72 times a day

Time: 2607.28

how do you ever concentrate for more

Time: 2608.76

than a couple minutes if you're self-

Time: 2610.68

interrupting that often you can't um

Time: 2613.48

briged Shelty has a great term for this

Time: 2615.2

she she calls it time confetti and she

Time: 2617.68

says we're taking these meaningful

Time: 2619

blocks of time and we're slicing them up

Time: 2621.24

into these like tiny little dots of

Time: 2623.119

confetti and uh not only can we not

Time: 2626.76

accomplish anything uh we're also

Time: 2628.8

eroding our own sense of Joy um because

Time: 2631.44

it's really hard to enjoy the you know

Time: 2633.319

the 30- second blip of time that you get

Time: 2635.559

on a test

Time: 2637.2

um and I think we know a lot more about

Time: 2639.64

the existence of these problems than

Time: 2641.319

than how to solve them but one thing we

Time: 2643.52

do know is blocking out un interrupted

Time: 2645.96

time is Meaningful uh there's a great

Time: 2647.8

Leslie Perlo experiment where she takes

Time: 2650.04

engineers and she has them uh she sets a

Time: 2652.88

quiet time policy no interruptions

Time: 2654.96

Tuesday Thursday Friday before noon 65%

Time: 2658.76

above average productivity could you

Time: 2660.559

repeat the um the protocol again yeah so

Time: 2663.72

quiet time there are a couple iterations

Time: 2665.319

of it but I think the most effective one

Time: 2666.68

was Tuesday Thursday Friday no meetings

Time: 2668.839

no interruptions no slack no emails

Time: 2671.96

before noon and during those periods of

Time: 2675.319

no interruptions one could tend to

Time: 2677

whatever their primary purpose is at

Time: 2679.359

work yeah so for me it might be

Time: 2680.88

podcasting obviously I don't have my

Time: 2682.52

phone in here and never do um but it

Time: 2685.92

doesn't mean no interaction with anyone

Time: 2687.8

else it just means focusing on the major

Time: 2690.119

task the task exactly and you come in

Time: 2691.64

with a clear sense of priority and

Time: 2693.319

purpose and I don't think there's

Time: 2695

anything magical about 2 Thursday Friday

Time: 2696.8

before noon uh it's just the idea of

Time: 2698.68

setting a boundary and collectively

Time: 2700.16

committing to it that that seems to be

Time: 2702.4

important and I think you know I when I

Time: 2705.28

think about this uh I'd be I'd be really

Time: 2707.119

curious about your take on um on

Time: 2708.599

chronotypes here because I think one

Time: 2710.96

thing I've learned in the last couple

Time: 2712.079

years is that if you're a if you're a

Time: 2713.8

morning person um you do your best

Time: 2715.76

analytical and creative thinking in the

Time: 2717.4

morning and so the quiet time block

Time: 2719.119

would work very well for for me as a

Time: 2720.92

morning person if you're a night owl you

Time: 2723.52

probably want that block in the late

Time: 2724.88

afternoon and I was encouraged there

Time: 2727.44

there was some evidence during Co that

Time: 2729.44

uh people have their best meetings right

Time: 2731.04

after lunch uh that there something like

Time: 2734.16

30% less likely to multitask in an after

Time: 2736.64

lunch meeting uh and I guess you know

Time: 2739.04

you could probably unpack the like the

Time: 2742.4

food coma uh you know getting

Time: 2744.16

re-energized by other people but it's

Time: 2746.359

led me to wonder if we should all be

Time: 2748.2

protecting the first few hours in the

Time: 2750.2

last few hours of the day for deep work

Time: 2752.319

and then doing our core meetings and

Time: 2754.4

interactions and kind of off task

Time: 2756.4

activities in the middle what do you

Time: 2757.88

think about that as a sequence yeah well

Time: 2759.48

I have a lot of questions about this for

Time: 2761.16

you but um I love that sequence it

Time: 2763.68

certainly fits with my natural rhythms I

Time: 2766.48

I think there's ample evidence to

Time: 2768.16

support the fact that provided one is

Time: 2770.4

sleeping well at night and is on a more

Time: 2772.04

or less a standard schedule when I say

Time: 2773.52

standard I mean going to bed somewhere

Time: 2774.96

between let's say 9:30 and 11:30 p.m.

Time: 2778.28

waking up sometime between let's say um

Time: 2781.559

6:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. maybe 5:30 or

Time: 2784.359

7:30 um some something like that so not

Time: 2786.92

highly unusual Night Owl or super early

Time: 2789.96

bird um for people that are following

Time: 2793.359

that sort of schedule the first let's

Time: 2796.2

just say from zero to eight hours after

Time: 2798.96

waking there tends to be a a fairly

Time: 2802.2

robust increase in all the catamin so

Time: 2804.96

dopamine norepinephrine epinephrine

Time: 2806.559

which generally okay generally speaking

Time: 2808.88

uh lead to increases alertness attention

Time: 2811.92

and focus that are great for analytic

Time: 2814.04

work uh great for implementation of

Time: 2817.24

strategies that you already understand

Time: 2818.96

and you need to churn through a lot of

Time: 2820.839

stuff um and of course there's a big

Time: 2824.2

increase in the morning especially if

Time: 2825.48

you view morning sunlight a healthy

Time: 2827.48

increase I should say in cortisol

Time: 2828.839

cortisol is not bad folks you you want

Time: 2830.88

cortisol but you want that Peak early in

Time: 2832.319

the day we know that okay so um for most

Time: 2835.88

people it seems at least my

Time: 2838.16

understanding is that um that period of

Time: 2840.52

time 0 to eight or uh eight hours after

Time: 2842.8

waking or so um is best devoted to the

Time: 2846.8

quote unquote most critical tasks but

Time: 2848.559

one of the common problems is that

Time: 2849.96

people take that um ability to implement

Time: 2852.559

a known strategy and they start

Time: 2855.2

battering back all the emails or talking

Time: 2858.599

to all by the way talking to co-workers

Time: 2860.68

is great and it's often required but

Time: 2862.8

it's what the question is whether or not

Time: 2864.16

it's productive conversation or whether

Time: 2865.88

or not it's just conversation and we

Time: 2867.44

tend to have a lot of energy early in

Time: 2869.119

the day and I'm I'm obsessed with the

Time: 2870.28

idea of neural energy as opposed to just

Time: 2871.92

caloric energy um so there we're talking

Time: 2874.2

about neural energy and then post post

Time: 2876.079

lunch so really as we get to sort of you

Time: 2879.44

know 9 to 17 hours after waking there is

Time: 2882.52

a dip in autonomic arousal that during

Time: 2884.44

the middle of the day the postp perial

Time: 2885.96

dip there a post lunch sleepiness um

Time: 2888.92

that can be partially offset by delaying

Time: 2890.359

your morning caffeine a bit if you have

Time: 2891.8

the afternoon crash but it's interesting

Time: 2893.52

that you know that more productive

Time: 2895.079

meetings and less um task switching and

Time: 2897.76

distraction occurred um in meeting set

Time: 2900.24

after lunch because that makes me think

Time: 2903.28

that perhaps being a little bit less

Time: 2905.68

alert is going to lend itself to more

Time: 2908.72

focus and indeed that's the the sort of

Time: 2911.599

optimal State relaxed but focused you

Time: 2913.92

know you're not sleepy um but you also

Time: 2916.52

don't have so much intrinsic energy that

Time: 2918.76

you're you know tending to a bunch of

Time: 2920.16

things because I think a lot of people

Time: 2921.2

do feel that way you know and I'm

Time: 2922.64

drinking you know Double Espresso right

Time: 2924.28

now um late midm morning um late morning

Time: 2928.16

uh and you know I can sit still but I

Time: 2931.599

think certain Zoom meetings how do I say

Time: 2933.839

this I don't want to offend any of my

Time: 2934.96

colleagues I mean they are boring enough

Time: 2937.52

they are not content Rich enough to to

Time: 2939.88

grab all my attention and nowadays of

Time: 2941.839

course there are multiple screens

Time: 2943

typically I've got two phones in a

Time: 2944.599

computer and you have to really spend

Time: 2946.559

some work to flip over those phones

Time: 2947.92

while I'm on a zoom and things like that

Time: 2950.079

um so what were you saying so it's maybe

Time: 2952.48

the reduction in autonomic arousal that

Time: 2955.2

that supports what you just described

Time: 2957

but I don't know um my my thinking uh or

Time: 2960.16

my understanding rather was that

Time: 2961.96

creative work and kind of um

Time: 2964.119

brainstorming was best accomplished in

Time: 2966.319

the late afternoon um I've noticed when

Time: 2970.04

lecturing I'd be curious what your

Time: 2971.359

experience is with um in University

Time: 2973.4

lectures when I held courses in the

Time: 2976.16

evening I used to like to hold my

Time: 2977.92

courses 5: to 7:00 p.m. or even 7 to

Time: 2980.2

9:30 p.m. when I was teaching

Time: 2982.48

undergraduates that people were much

Time: 2984.68

looser and more relaxed and I always um

Time: 2987.839

uh thought that that might have

Time: 2989.24

something to do with an increase in Gaba

Time: 2990.72

transmission that's known to happen late

Time: 2992.28

in the late evening that people are just

Time: 2993.559

kind of more relaxed more and less

Time: 2996.359

social anxiety they've been around

Time: 2997.88

people for much of the day any I I I

Time: 3000.319

send back more Reflections than answers

Time: 3002.319

I don't have any firm Neuroscience

Time: 3003.64

explanations for what you described but

Time: 3005.2

but there are some emerging theories

Time: 3006.72

about how it might work and it has this

Time: 3008.04

0o to 9 hours Phase One 9 to 17 hours

Time: 3011.96

phase two and then of course from 17 to

Time: 3013.839

24

Time: 3014.839

hours I'll call it phase three you

Time: 3016.88

should be asleep yeah ideally well that

Time: 3019.2

I I think there's there's a there's a

Time: 3020.76

confound in your your teaching

Time: 3022.119

experience which is undergrads often

Time: 3024.88

sleep in until what noon or they might

Time: 3027.52

be up until 4 a.m. or at least 10: a.m.

Time: 3029.599

seems to be a typical rise time for the

Time: 3031.76

undergrad so a morning class might be

Time: 3033.88

too early for them to be fully awake but

Time: 3036.2

there is um there's some brand new

Time: 3037.319

evidence that at least on creativity at

Time: 3038.92

work um I read a series of I think it

Time: 3041.28

was three studies recently showing that

Time: 3043.48

early birds actually did do more

Time: 3045.24

creative work in the morning um and in

Time: 3047.68

part uh I think again the I don't I

Time: 3050.44

don't think any neuroscientist has has

Time: 3052.28

touched the mechanisms on this yet but

Time: 3054.599

in terms of the psych ological processes

Time: 3056.64

um early on there's just there seems to

Time: 3058.4

be a benefit of um of the energy level

Time: 3061.319

um and some of that energy leads to more

Time: 3063.64

Divergent thinking uh and later if

Time: 3065.68

you're a morning person you might lose

Time: 3067.119

the ability to to diverge quite as much

Time: 3069.319

and so you end up in a more conventional

Time: 3070.96

space of thought does that does that

Time: 3073.16

track it all with your understanding of

Time: 3074.559

how it might play out in the brain my

Time: 3076.599

understanding is it would be a little

Time: 3077.4

bit in it would be individual but you

Time: 3080.079

know there is something to these Lial

Time: 3081.599

States between sleep and waking so maybe

Time: 3083.96

we can um r convenient bow around what I

Time: 3087.28

said and what you what you just said

Time: 3088.76

which is um that we know that in the

Time: 3091.92

transition States into an out of sleep

Time: 3095.559

and it doesn't necessarily have to be

Time: 3096.88

within the first half hour in and out of

Time: 3099

sleep that um there seems to be more

Time: 3101.799

Divergent think you or at least

Time: 3103

activation of neural networks that um

Time: 3105.68

are not as constrained as one observes

Time: 3107.799

when they're in a in a sheer task and

Time: 3109.96

strategy implementation mode right I

Time: 3112.079

mean I think is that similar to the

Time: 3113.64

shower effect the shower effect so

Time: 3115.76

people have ideas in the shower or while

Time: 3117.52

running or um while falling asleep or my

Time: 3120.839

best ideas always come within the first

Time: 3122.319

hour after waking that's why I carry a

Time: 3123.799

notebook around and much to the dismay

Time: 3126.24

of people in my life oftentimes I I

Time: 3128

don't want to hear or from or talk to

Time: 3130.4

anyone first thing in the morning uh

Time: 3132.16

this is problematic and I had to make

Time: 3133.799

adjustments we'll talk about adjustments

Time: 3135.359

between um uh productivity and uh uh

Time: 3138.559

control and and um Family interactions

Time: 3142.079

this is something I know you you've

Time: 3143.16

worked on and and written about um

Time: 3145.799

but those Lial states are are

Time: 3147.88

interesting and and I'd love your

Time: 3149.4

thoughts on this um I've had several

Time: 3150.96

guests on this podcast talk about their

Time: 3153.16

creative process um namely Rick Rubin um

Time: 3156.64

he's famous for his work in music

Time: 3158.28

producing also has a great podcast tetri

Time: 3160.16

grammaton um as well as Carl dice Roth a

Time: 3162.96

colleague of mine who's really in the

Time: 3165.96

0.00001% of um super talented

Time: 3168.68

bioengineers neuroscientists who also

Time: 3170.44

happens to be a full-time um clinical

Time: 3172.839

psychiatrist and has five children okay

Time: 3176.44

um and I asked them about their creative

Time: 3178.24

process because both of them are very

Time: 3179.799

creative um Carl's process involves the

Time: 3183.2

following late at night for him but it

Time: 3185.72

could really be any time of day

Time: 3187.16

deliberately making his body as still as

Time: 3189.559

possible and forcing himself to think in

Time: 3192.359

complete sentences Rick's creative

Time: 3194.92

process although it includes a lot of

Time: 3196.359

different things has a lot to do

Time: 3199.64

with also getting very still lying down

Time: 3203.96

okay other folks that I've spoken to

Time: 3206.04

academics and and artists have referred

Time: 3208.839

to getting their body into motion but

Time: 3210.92

quieting their mind so these are two

Time: 3212.96

opposite processes in one case the body

Time: 3214.839

is still but the mind is deliberately

Time: 3216.68

very active in the other scenario the

Time: 3219.24

body is very active but they're making

Time: 3221.559

their mind sort of in free association

Time: 3223.88

not still but they're not deliberately

Time: 3225.559

thinking about any one thing fascinating

Time: 3227.64

and I'm obsessed with this maybe you and

Time: 3229.079

I could work on this you know I'm due

Time: 3230.52

for a sabatical maybe we could figure

Time: 3231.88

this out because I think I've never seen

Time: 3233.16

anyone study this before right because

Time: 3234.52

the the the nervous system no the

Time: 3236.4

nervous system I'm not aware of anyone

Time: 3238.72

has done it formally either the nervous

Time: 3240.76

system of course is a is a brain body

Time: 3242.68

phenomenon and so what happens when we

Time: 3244.839

sort of cut off the deliberate

Time: 3246.559

operations of brain or body and it it

Time: 3249.559

doesn't seem to matter whether or not

Time: 3250.839

it's brain or body as long as one is

Time: 3252.799

deliberately shut off and so anyway I

Time: 3255.16

love your thoughts on this um I don't

Time: 3256.839

consider myself like a Ultra creative or

Time: 3259.119

creative type um to any great degree but

Time: 3262

me neither that's why but I'm fascinated

Time: 3264.64

right but right but that's but I'm

Time: 3266.44

fascinated by these deliberate tactics

Time: 3268.559

that highly creative people have have uh

Time: 3271.359

undertaken um in order to bring about

Time: 3273.68

ideas I certainly have some of my best

Time: 3275.96

ideas when I'm running and I'll just be

Time: 3277.96

running along like my goodness I wasn't

Time: 3279.68

even thinking now I need to write this

Time: 3282.04

down okay and then continue uh I tried

Time: 3284.52

the diero approach and the the Ruben

Time: 3286.68

approach actually just spent a week with

Time: 3288.119

Rick um overseas and indeed he spends a

Time: 3291.48

lot of time just still thinking and it's

Time: 3295.599

a very hard practice to to get um to get

Time: 3298.24

consistent with I wonder I wonder if

Time: 3300.119

there are individual differences here on

Time: 3301.76

on which needs to be stable or steady um

Time: 3305.04

I'm think you know I'm thinking about a

Time: 3306.599

huge part of creativity is um is

Time: 3309.28

overriding your default instincts and if

Time: 3312.359

you're somebody whose default is to have

Time: 3314.24

your mind constantly going then quieting

Time: 3317.48

would probably shift your your train of

Time: 3319.839

thought to something more original or

Time: 3321.72

unconventional um the opposite might be

Time: 3323.72

true if you have a naturally quiet mine

Time: 3325.92

I would imagine you need to you need to

Time: 3328.4

sort of jolt yourself out of that with

Time: 3330.4

lots of access to you know to Freer

Time: 3332.44

ranging thoughts and so um it'd be

Time: 3334.96

interesting actually to study whether we

Time: 3336.599

can predict what you should steal based

Time: 3338.44

on your personality yeah I want and

Time: 3340.96

maybe what we could do in that study I

Time: 3342.559

think we have a collaboration Brewing

Time: 3343.88

you know there's a joke you know two two

Time: 3345.359

scientists walk into a room and what

Time: 3346.92

comes out is a collaboration so um I'd

Time: 3350.599

want to put people in a scanner it's

Time: 3352.64

hard to get people treadmilling in a

Time: 3354.079

scanner because the movement artifact

Time: 3355.64

but and just look at net uh resting

Time: 3358.119

Network activation and compare that to

Time: 3361.559

resting Network activation when people

Time: 3363

are completely still and forcing

Time: 3364.48

themselves to think in deliberate

Time: 3365.92

deliberate sentences and then look at

Time: 3367.44

the overlap in that vend diagram that's

Time: 3369.64

what's of interest to me they may be

Time: 3371.2

completely different brain States they

Time: 3373

might actually have more similarity than

Time: 3375.24

differences I wonder then if you can tie

Time: 3377.48

that to differences in the quality and

Time: 3379.039

quantity of output so I would imagine

Time: 3381.92

that one of the benefits of either kind

Time: 3384.119

of movement is that you um you end up

Time: 3386.76

increasing the volume of ideas which we

Time: 3388.72

know is good for variety and ultimately

Time: 3390.68

increases the probability that you

Time: 3391.96

stumble onto something new but then I

Time: 3394.48

think this the being still part is

Time: 3397.319

probably better for the filtering

Time: 3398.92

process of I think one of the hardest

Time: 3401.68

parts of creativity is actually judging

Time: 3402.96

your own ideas um most most creative

Time: 3405.68

people have many terrible ideas in fact

Time: 3407.48

the most creative people have the most

Time: 3409.039

horrible ideas U because they just have

Time: 3411.039

a lot of ideas and um I think that maybe

Time: 3415.76

there's a there's a way in which

Time: 3417.24

quieting either your body or your mind

Time: 3419.72

allows you to gain some distance from

Time: 3421.2

the idea and see whether it's boneheaded

Time: 3423.92

or

Time: 3425.079

promising I'd like to take a quick break

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when one is trying to gauge the quality

Time: 3497.24

of their ideas um how do you cope with

Time: 3503.039

uh how does one cope with not placing a

Time: 3506.28

judge on that that um causes some you

Time: 3509.039

know false negatives where you're where

Time: 3510.4

you're wiping out great ideas because um

Time: 3513.079

you know Rick ruin talks a lot about you

Time: 3515.88

know don't give the audience what they

Time: 3517.28

want they don't know what they want they

Time: 3518.48

haven't seen it yet if it's a truly

Time: 3520

creative idea they haven't seen it and

Time: 3523.319

um but of course we all have to develop

Time: 3524.68

our own sense of taste so well how does

Time: 3527.76

this process work for you I mean you've

Time: 3529.4

written about and worked on a tremendous

Time: 3530.96

range of topics um and always you know I

Time: 3534.2

must say say with with such rigor and

Time: 3536.28

such Clarity of communication about

Time: 3538.24

those topics yeah it's absolutely true I

Time: 3540.359

mean like 100% so we say around here no

Time: 3543.16

weak sauce you know and a great phrase

Time: 3546.119

there's no weak sauce in your game it's

Time: 3549.4

incredible so um when do you get your

Time: 3552.44

ideas and how do you filter those

Time: 3554.359

ideas I feel like the when could be

Time: 3556.359

anytime uh I think the I mean you've

Time: 3558.799

you've clearly experienced this too for

Time: 3560.799

me the best thing about hosting a

Time: 3562.559

podcast is I have an excuse to learn

Time: 3564.76

about anything I want from almost anyone

Time: 3566.799

I want and I get to call that part of my

Time: 3568.48

job and so I feel like you know that

Time: 3571.52

having that built-in mechanism for

Time: 3573.359

learning means ideas could could come at

Time: 3575.92

any moment uh the the filtering process

Time: 3579

for me is um it's evolved over the last

Time: 3581.52

few years what I what I do now is if I'm

Time: 3583.88

let's say I'm I'm starting a new book

Time: 3586.359

I'll write a draft of the first chapter

Time: 3588.119

and I send it to five to eight people

Time: 3589.839

whose judgment I trust and by Design

Time: 3592.319

some of those people are in my field

Time: 3594.359

they're you know deep-seated in

Time: 3595.72

organizational psychology others are you

Time: 3598.48

know very far outside but curious about

Time: 3601.64

the topics I'm interested in and I asked

Time: 3604.44

them for a zero to 10

Time: 3606.28

score uh this is something I learned to

Time: 3608.2

do as a as a springboard diver uh where

Time: 3610.799

you I would I would take off um and you

Time: 3613.599

know I'm doing a few flips or twists and

Time: 3616.4

I think my dive is good but I can't see

Time: 3618

it because I'm hurling in midair and

Time: 3619.64

it's a everything's a blur and so I have

Time: 3621.52

to rely on my coach to tell me if it was

Time: 3623.28

any good I feel like creative work is

Time: 3625.24

the same way you're too close to it to

Time: 3626.72

know how the audience is going to react

Time: 3628.319

to it and yes you don't want to create

Time: 3630.68

it just for the audience but at the end

Time: 3633.119

of the day you want it to be you know

Time: 3634.839

interesting or useful to them so I asked

Time: 3637.599

for the zero to 10 and no one ever says

Time: 3640.76

10 and then I use that as a calibration

Time: 3643.68

mechanism so if everybody's in the seven

Time: 3645.52

or eight range I know that I'm on to

Time: 3647.16

something promising and now I need to

Time: 3649.16

refine it if I get a bunch of twos

Time: 3651.039

threes three and a halfs I either need

Time: 3654.28

to rethink the idea or dramatically

Time: 3657.24

rewrite how I'm positioning it and I

Time: 3660.88

think one of the mistakes a lot of

Time: 3661.96

people make is they know they need

Time: 3663.96

feedback on their ideas they go to one

Time: 3665.839

or two people and they start to feel a

Time: 3668.799

little bit defensive or threatened and

Time: 3670.48

their ego gets involved and then they

Time: 3672

don't ask for any more what they don't

Time: 3674

realize is it's actually less painful if

Time: 3676.24

you get more feedback because when eight

Time: 3678.799

different people critique your work you

Time: 3680.44

start to realize that a few of the

Time: 3681.599

comments that sort of bruise you a

Time: 3683.559

little bit were just IDI syncratic and

Time: 3685.28

no one else cared about those issues but

Time: 3687.76

then five people had the same problem

Time: 3690.079

like that is not taste that is a quality

Time: 3692.839

issue and I've got to focus on that and

Time: 3694.599

so it really helps to filter what are

Time: 3696.52

the what are the revisions I need to

Time: 3698.119

make what are the problems and

Time: 3699.72

complaints I need to pay attention to

Time: 3701.359

versus what can I ignore because maybe

Time: 3703.599

this product was not for that person I'm

Time: 3705.68

recalling when I was a postto I had a

Time: 3707.799

manuscript fully prepared and I worked

Time: 3710.4

in a laboratory where I didn't work on

Time: 3712

the same thing as my postto advisor he

Time: 3713.92

was very gracious and letting me be the

Time: 3716.599

outlier um and he said well I don't know

Time: 3719.68

anything about this topic so before you

Time: 3721.119

submit it to this fairly prestigious

Time: 3723.96

very frankly very prestigious Journal

Time: 3725.92

I'll be honest um you should probably go

Time: 3727.52

down the hall and hand it to so and so I

Time: 3729.319

don't want to mention who it was because

Time: 3730.64

I'm still in the same Department um and

Time: 3733.48

I gave it to him this individual and he

Time: 3736.079

looked at and he said yeah you know it

Time: 3737.359

looks interesting but I don't think

Time: 3738.68

there's going to be a whole lot of

Time: 3740.039

interest in this it's just like not I

Time: 3741.92

was like no way like this I think this

Time: 3743.839

is really cool but I was pretty dismayed

Time: 3746.72

so I was like oh go so what do I do so I

Time: 3748.279

went back to my adviser and thankfully

Time: 3750.68

he's a bit of an iconic CL and he said

Time: 3752.72

that's the best feedback you could have

Time: 3754.279

gotten definitely submit it to that

Time: 3756.68

particular journal and I must say that

Time: 3758.96

paper got accepted faster than any other

Time: 3761.64

paper I've never had an experience like

Time: 3763.24

that I mean it required some revisions I

Time: 3765.359

remember thinking like wow what an

Time: 3766.72

unusual response to after having

Time: 3770

instructed me to go ask a a a more

Time: 3772.079

senior colleague right he was a at that

Time: 3773.96

time assistant professor and then to get

Time: 3775.839

the ne essentially negative response and

Time: 3778.72

then to take that as like you should

Time: 3780

definitely send it out really taught me

Time: 3781.68

a lesson that sometimes one needs to

Time: 3783.119

invert their um their action according

Time: 3787.319

uh to the negative feedback they get not

Time: 3789.16

always but um that was an N of one okay

Time: 3791.799

so it's not uh shouldn't be extrapolated

Time: 3793.68

to too many circumstances but um

Time: 3796.16

basically led me to um not seek out uh

Time: 3800.599

feedback prior to submission of things

Time: 3802.559

terribly often I mean uh I check

Time: 3805.16

information obviously prior to podcast I

Time: 3807.24

check the validity of the information in

Time: 3809.2

podcasts and papers but um it made me

Time: 3811.839

realize that people's opinions can be

Time: 3814.52

like highly idiosyncratic and and in

Time: 3817.68

some cases outright wrong and really the

Time: 3819.72

the opinion of the journal is what What

Time: 3821.359

mattered most in in terms of getting it

Time: 3823.76

accepted or not so um how do you you

Time: 3826.68

said give it to the greatest number of

Time: 3828.319

people but if it's anything like

Time: 3830.599

comments on social media there's a

Time: 3832.599

salience to negative comments ments so

Time: 3835

how should we filter positive versus

Time: 3836.599

negative feedback well there's a there's

Time: 3839.48

a met analysis here this is kuger and

Time: 3841.079

Denise um looking at 100 Years of

Time: 3843.039

feedback research and they found that

Time: 3845.4

what drives the utility of feedback is

Time: 3847.24

not whether it's positive or negative

Time: 3849.279

it's whether it focuses on the task or

Time: 3852

on the self so if I tell you that your

Time: 3856.64

work is terrible you're going to get

Time: 3858.72

defensive if I tell you that your work

Time: 3860.92

is great you're going to get complacent

Time: 3863.799

if I tell you here's the specific thing

Time: 3865.599

that I liked about your work you're

Time: 3867.24

going to try to learn to repeat that and

Time: 3869.2

if I tell you here's the thing I didn't

Time: 3870.64

like you're going to try to see if you

Time: 3872.319

can fix it so I actually think we should

Time: 3874.839

worry less about whether the feedback is

Time: 3877.079

encouraging or discouraging and more

Time: 3879.64

about how do I make sure that I get

Time: 3881.48

input that's going to allow me to learn

Time: 3883.319

from my strengths and also overcome my

Time: 3885.76

weaknesses um and actually I uh one of

Time: 3888.4

the things I've I've learned recently is

Time: 3890

there's some I would say a growing body

Time: 3892.039

of evidence at this point that asking

Time: 3893.92

for feedback is not the best way to get

Time: 3895.599

people to help you um because when you

Time: 3897.839

ask for feedback you end up getting two

Time: 3899.76

groups of people you get cheerleaders

Time: 3901.119

and you get critics and cheerleaders are

Time: 3903.24

basically applauding your best self

Time: 3905

critics are attacking your worst self

Time: 3906.88

what you want is a coach which is

Time: 3908.44

somebody who helps you become a better

Time: 3909.76

version of yourself and the way you get

Time: 3911.799

people to coach you is not to say give

Time: 3913.079

me feedback because they will then look

Time: 3915.119

at the past and tell you what you

Time: 3916.72

screwed up or what you did right what

Time: 3919.2

you want is to say can you give me

Time: 3920.68

advice for next time and then they look

Time: 3923.039

at the future and they'll give you

Time: 3924.559

either a note on something to repeat or

Time: 3926.4

something to correct and this is such a

Time: 3928.559

subtle shift that it can make a big

Time: 3929.799

difference um Andrew one of the things

Time: 3931.88

I've I guess I found myself applying

Time: 3933.279

this to a lot is um uh after giving

Time: 3935.92

speeches I used to get off stage and say

Time: 3938.52

i' would love some feedback and you get

Time: 3940.92

back a bunch of oh you know I really

Time: 3942.839

enjoyed that thanks what do I do with

Time: 3945.079

that information I'm trying to learn how

Time: 3946.92

to get better and when I shift the

Time: 3948.72

question to say what's the one thing I

Time: 3950.24

could do better next time it's like oh

Time: 3952.24

don't open with a joke the audience

Time: 3953.48

couldn't tell you were joking um uh

Time: 3956.88

frequently it's give me a little bit

Time: 3959.16

more of a through line uh you focused a

Time: 3961.279

lot on you know a bunch of interesting

Time: 3962.88

points but I lost the connective tissue

Time: 3965.96

and you know those those actionable

Time: 3967.279

suggestions are much more likely to come

Time: 3968.72

when you just ask for a tip as opposed

Time: 3970.72

to an evaluation oh that's so good I'm G

Time: 3974.72

to just pause for a second I I've never

Time: 3978.2

taken a pause I've taken occasional

Time: 3980.319

pause to be honest but they're very rare

Time: 3983.48

um as the audience knows oh that that's

Time: 3987.279

just gazillion dollar advice because I

Time: 3991.359

think that um everyone has an ego we all

Time: 3995.24

want to perform Well we'd like to

Time: 3997.76

perform better over time and negative

Time: 3999.96

feedback hurts and it can hurt a little

Time: 4002.52

or a lot depending on how defensive we

Time: 4004.079

are but a tool like you just described

Time: 4007.4

to uh remove some of that

Time: 4010.319

defensive armor that we all have and and

Time: 4013.279

actually let the information in in a way

Time: 4014.76

that's constructive uh is really great

Time: 4016.799

what you described I think is a way to

Time: 4019.839

create constructive criticism but the

Time: 4022.359

constructive part is really coming from

Time: 4023.92

within yeah as opposed to saying I'd

Time: 4026.559

like some constructive criticism and

Time: 4028

then hoping that the criticism is

Time: 4029.44

actually constructive so you're taking

Time: 4031.64

control over the process in a healthy

Time: 4033.68

way in a benevolent way that that's the

Time: 4035.48

goal and I think the the big question

Time: 4036.88

that comes up for a lot of people at

Time: 4038.4

this point is okay so I get somebody to

Time: 4040.76

give me advice but it might still sting

Time: 4043.24

how do I get better at taking it

Time: 4045.2

constructively and I think probably my

Time: 4047.96

favorite technique on this I learned

Time: 4049.2

from Sheila Keen she calls it the the

Time: 4051.559

second score and the idea is that when

Time: 4053.72

somebody gives you a piece of criticism

Time: 4056.2

uh that's your first score so let's say

Time: 4057.839

you know they like I in my in my world

Time: 4060.52

they gave me a three and a half and I

Time: 4062.319

want to know how I can do better next

Time: 4063.92

time how do I get myself to focus on

Time: 4065.52

that what I do is say I want to get a 10

Time: 4068.119

for how well I took the three and a half

Time: 4070.48

and that's the second score I want to

Time: 4071.88

evaluate myself on how well I took the

Time: 4074.079

first score I I think about this almost

Time: 4077.119

every day there was um actually can I

Time: 4079.559

tell you a quick story so when I was uh

Time: 4082.68

right out of my doctorate I got asked to

Time: 4084.92

teach a a motivation class for Air Force

Time: 4088

generals and Colonels I was

Time: 4091.279

25 I think 25 26 um you know they're

Time: 4096.04

they're all twice my age uh they've got

Time: 4098.279

thousands of flying hours they've got

Time: 4100.359

billion dollar budgets uh they've got

Time: 4103.64

well you know this community well their

Time: 4104.96

nicknames Striker and sandun and I was

Time: 4108.159

extremely intimidated so I I walked in

Time: 4110.64

there and I I thought I had to impress

Time: 4112.12

them and I started talking about my

Time: 4113.56

credentials and you know all my research

Time: 4115.839

experience and the feedback at the end

Time: 4118.239

of the 4our session was brutal I

Time: 4120.96

remember uh reading the feedback forums

Time: 4122.64

and one person had written more

Time: 4124.88

knowledge in the audience than on the

Time: 4127.359

podium I was like true I can't argue

Time: 4130.44

with that and then another wrote I

Time: 4132.4

gained nothing from this session but I

Time: 4134.359

trust the instructor gain useful

Time: 4136.799

insight and that that was devastating I

Time: 4139.92

was like can I like I would really like

Time: 4142.52

to transform into an actual bear and

Time: 4144.359

hibernate for the next four months and

Time: 4146.4

then maybe I'll come out of a hole ready

Time: 4148.04

to hear this I didn't have that option I

Time: 4150.44

had committed to teach a second session

Time: 4152.4

a week later so all I could do was

Time: 4155.12

figure out how am I going to hear this

Time: 4157.279

feedback and really take it seriously

Time: 4159.279

and I guess I applied a version of the

Time: 4160.52

second score and I said all right there

Time: 4162.64

you know there's some general that are

Time: 4164.08

going to come back and see me again and

Time: 4166.52

I've got to prove to them that I was

Time: 4168.64

open to feedback and one of the things I

Time: 4171.04

heard loud and clear was that uh they

Time: 4174.04

valued humility and I had led with too

Time: 4176.799

much confidence which was just

Time: 4178.4

insecurity masted and so I thought okay

Time: 4181.279

how do I how do I change the equation

Time: 4184.319

and walked in looked at the room and I

Time: 4187.44

said I know what you're all thinking

Time: 4188.4

right now what could I possibly learn

Time: 4190.159

from a professor who's 12 years

Time: 4192.359

old dead

Time: 4194.28

silence like oh no this is this is going

Time: 4197.679

to go horribly wrong and then uh one of

Time: 4200

the guys in the audience jumps in he's

Time: 4201.96

like oh that's ridiculous you got to be

Time: 4203.28

at least

Time: 4204.239

13 everybody started laughing it broke

Time: 4207.08

the ice and I think what what I was

Time: 4209.28

trying to do was to take myself off the

Time: 4210.84

pedestal and say look I heard your

Time: 4212.52

feedback uh you told me that you didn't

Time: 4215.36

think I had anything to teach you and

Time: 4217.159

I've got to acknowledge that right up

Time: 4218.36

front and be open to the fact that

Time: 4220.4

that's true and so I want to come in

Time: 4221.52

here and learn from you and I want to

Time: 4222.84

see if I can Curry to conversation where

Time: 4224.88

we all end up learning and the feedback

Time: 4227.28

was night and day different afterward I

Time: 4228.96

I one one person wrote although Junior

Time: 4230.6

inexperience the professor dealt with

Time: 4232.28

the evidence in an interesting way I

Time: 4234.32

like all right I'll take it and um

Time: 4236.84

there's something really powerful about

Time: 4238.48

about saying look you know I I can't

Time: 4240

change the fact that they hated my

Time: 4241.199

session what I can do is convince them

Time: 4244.08

that I was motivated to learn from their

Time: 4246.64

criticism I love this concept of the

Time: 4249.84

second score and thank you for sharing

Time: 4251.28

that story I think um you know very very

Time: 4253.84

often um we hear about people like you

Time: 4256.159

who if people didn't catch the math in

Time: 4258.08

there uh you were a PhD by age 25 um and

Time: 4262.4

as far as I know the the youngest tener

Time: 4264.239

professor at pen at 28 so these are

Time: 4266.4

outrageous uh outrageously impressive um

Time: 4269.76

metrics of accomplishment but for you to

Time: 4271.76

share a um a story about uh you know um

Time: 4275.04

less than Optimal Performance and how

Time: 4276.719

you adjusted to it and and and the

Time: 4278.52

incorporation of the the second score um

Time: 4281.84

that you're referring to I think is uh

Time: 4283.64

is really appreciated because I think

Time: 4285.36

that um as much as we hear you know oh

Time: 4288.159

you know Jordan you know took many more

Time: 4290.56

you know free throws and everyone just

Time: 4292.44

thinks about all the ones he made you

Time: 4293.8

know people think about all the ones he

Time: 4295.239

made that's the way the game works

Time: 4297.04

that's the way the mind works I should

Time: 4298.44

say so it's um I appreciate that you

Time: 4300.76

flesh it out with a with a personal

Time: 4302.159

example I too would want to turn into a

Time: 4303.92

barar and disappear but I would but I

Time: 4306

think that um it's really impressive

Time: 4307.76

what you did and and I and it makes me

Time: 4309.4

think that the second score of getting a

Time: 4311

10 at at bringing the three and a half

Time: 4313.28

up

Time: 4314.56

right uh as it were um is really about

Time: 4317.56

turning a

Time: 4319.04

score into a verb process you know over

Time: 4322.96

and over again as I've do this podcast

Time: 4325.28

and as I've taught in the classroom what

Time: 4326.52

I keep coming back to is this idea that

Time: 4328.12

we should be focusing more on verbs and

Time: 4329.679

less on nouns we love to name things and

Time: 4332.04

categorize them but but when we start

Time: 4334.239

living life through a lot of verb

Time: 4336.679

processes so instead of getting Being

Time: 4339.159

Fit uh we think about that you know or

Time: 4341.32

running as a thing we really think about

Time: 4343.239

like just running right it becomes less

Time: 4345.28

daunting and and we accomplish far more

Time: 4347.679

but the idea that um you know and this

Time: 4349.48

has this there mathematical models of

Time: 4351.32

this I'm sure but where you're basically

Time: 4352.52

talking about you know like an integral

Time: 4354.04

right as opposed to just some value

Time: 4355.84

right you're talking about the slope of

Time: 4356.88

the line yeah right so you're a three

Time: 4358.52

and a half how are you going to get to a

Time: 4360.28

10 gosh that's a huge gap and you're

Time: 4362.48

dealing with being back on your heels

Time: 4363.96

psychologically from getting all this

Time: 4365.32

you know battering feedback from these

Time: 4367.159

uh you know these uh highly accomplished

Time: 4369.28

individuals all these inment and you

Time: 4371.48

know literally wearing them presumably

Time: 4372.96

on their body body uh so for you to see

Time: 4375.44

and and it's really about creating it's

Time: 4378

about taking control of the slope of

Time: 4379.4

that line from the three onward and it's

Time: 4381.76

really a forward-looking perspective so

Time: 4383.84

I don't think we're being unduly uh

Time: 4386.36

psychological here or analytic I mean I

Time: 4388.239

think it's really about taking a a

Time: 4390.6

moment State and a noun and turning it

Time: 4393.28

into a verb yeah I think that's right I

Time: 4395.56

I'm reminded of the great philosopher

Time: 4397.04

Homer Simpson who said that verbing

Time: 4399.6

weirds language uh so it's harder to

Time: 4402.04

talk about this stuff in verbs I swear I

Time: 4403.719

didn't steal it from The Simpsons but if

Time: 4405.12

it came from Homer Simpson like I'm all

Time: 4406.719

for it you have to I mean that's small

Time: 4409

brain small brain but you know given the

Time: 4411.239

size of his brain and people have seen

Time: 4412.719

the image uh uh you know fairly fairly

Time: 4415.6

robust knowledge no I I I think you're

Time: 4417.52

on to something I think um verbs are

Time: 4419.08

active and we're we're drawn to them um

Time: 4421.679

I think yeah a lot of times people

Time: 4423.6

review their past to work and they just

Time: 4425.6

like they end up shaming an earlier

Time: 4427.48

version of themselves and they they

Time: 4428.92

wallow in rumination and what what we

Time: 4431.6

want to try to do in that situation

Time: 4432.92

which is e easier said than done is is

Time: 4434.44

to say all right like the purpose of you

Time: 4436.32

know of of getting feedback or advice is

Time: 4438.84

not to shame my past self it's to

Time: 4440.239

educate My Future Self um which I think

Time: 4442.84

is very connected to a lot of the work

Time: 4444.199

on growth mindset that that you've been

Time: 4445.6

talking about and uh there's been a

Time: 4447.48

firestorm of controversy around uh can

Time: 4449.52

we teach growth mindset in schools

Time: 4451.199

lately and uh I think what what that is

Time: 4454.28

underscored for me is look you can't you

Time: 4457.08

can't expect someone to listen to One

Time: 4458.56

podcast episode or go through one

Time: 4460.56

workshop and magically believe that

Time: 4462.76

they're capable of learning anything at

Time: 4464.32

any moment um this is something we have

Time: 4466.239

to actively work on on a daily basis and

Time: 4468.239

part of doing that exactly as you said

Time: 4470.28

is thinking about the slope and saying

Time: 4472.08

all right um the person that I'm you

Time: 4474.159

know I'm competing with is my past self

Time: 4476.44

and I want to get a little bit better

Time: 4477.56

today than I was

Time: 4479.04

yesterday yeah I think um along the

Time: 4481.44

lines of growth mindset obviously we

Time: 4483.199

both know Carol DW and uh respect her

Time: 4486.12

tremendously and I um and I realized

Time: 4488.04

there is some controversy now around how

Time: 4490.96

you know readily one can teach growth

Time: 4492.48

mindset or incorporate growth mindset my

Time: 4494.32

understanding and um I'd love to know

Time: 4496.4

your thoughts on this is that when the D

Time: 4499.08

work is combined with some of the Ali

Time: 4502.12

Crum work that is growth mindset is

Time: 4505.719

combined with a knowledge just a basic

Time: 4509

and true understanding that stress and

Time: 4511.639

the feelings of anxiety and tension that

Time: 4514.52

um can actually be performance-enhancing

Time: 4516.84

when those two things are combined I

Time: 4518.6

think this is the work of David joerger

Time: 4519.88

and colleagues at UT Austin that uh

Time: 4522.44

indeed growth mind becomes um more

Time: 4524.96

visible in our in our uh mindsets and

Time: 4527.76

performance um and are there other

Time: 4530.4

aspects to growth mindset and and other

Time: 4533.32

um other mindsets that are now being

Time: 4535.4

woven into that framework that that can

Time: 4537.199

be helpful because I know um gosh if

Time: 4539.4

ever there was a great name for a aop

Time: 4541.84

psychology growth mindset it tells you

Time: 4543.199

everything you want everything you need

Time: 4545.199

and everything you sort of need to know

Time: 4546.679

and just the name um but uh we all find

Time: 4551.52

it difficult to implement um just just

Time: 4553.36

telling myself I'm not as good as

Time: 4554.96

something as I could be yet it sounds

Time: 4558

great but in moments of you know

Time: 4560.88

receiving feedback uh that's harsh um

Time: 4563.88

sometimes it's hard to access yeah it is

Time: 4565.719

I think so the the latest there's a

Time: 4567.48

mamera um at all met analysis and then

Time: 4570.36

you know I think sort of that camp

Time: 4571.96

versus the the Carol and David Camp um

Time: 4574.679

you know have very different views on

Time: 4576.6

how big the effects are but I think one

Time: 4578.76

thing they they seem to agree on is

Time: 4581.04

growth mindset is more important in

Time: 4582.76

circum ances uh where people are more

Time: 4585.36

likely to need it um so if you think

Time: 4587.56

about for example um kids who are

Time: 4589.84

impoverished um or marginalized

Time: 4591.92

communities um you know the message that

Time: 4595.52

you actually you know that you you are

Time: 4597.96

capable of um you know of evolving your

Time: 4601.04

skills to the point that something

Time: 4602.4

you're bad at today you could be good at

Time: 4604.36

next year um is really important when

Time: 4606.679

you've never heard that before um and

Time: 4608.32

when you don't have a single person

Time: 4609.76

believing in you I think where um where

Time: 4613.32

we're often missing the boat is we think

Time: 4614.96

all right I'm just going to I'm going to

Time: 4616.239

instill this idea in a person's head and

Time: 4618.52

my work is done um and we know that the

Time: 4620.679

context around you really matters so um

Time: 4622.76

actually Carol's done some research

Time: 4624

showing that uh growth mindset is more

Time: 4626.159

likely to have an impact uh when your

Time: 4628.56

classroom culture um also and your

Time: 4631.12

teacher right has the belief that kids

Time: 4632.88

are capable of learning and growing um

Time: 4635.04

that your you know your starting ability

Time: 4636.639

is not fixed in any subject and I think

Time: 4639.8

we probably for all of us as individuals

Time: 4642.28

what that means is we need to think

Time: 4643.679

about the the micro environment that we

Time: 4645.52

put ourselves in um I think you know the

Time: 4649.719

GU one one of the things I've thinking a

Time: 4650.88

lot about lately is scaffolding and the

Time: 4652.92

idea that you know when you're when

Time: 4654.12

you're trying to improve at something

Time: 4655.36

you don't need a a permanent teacher

Time: 4657.52

necessarily you don't need one Mentor

Time: 4660.04

you know guiding you for nine years what

Time: 4662.639

you need is is somebody who can give you

Time: 4664.44

the temporary support that allows you to

Time: 4666.36

to scale to a New Height just like a

Time: 4668.239

scaffold wood on a building um and in

Time: 4670.48

learning theory basically the idea

Time: 4671.76

behind scaffolding is we're we're going

Time: 4673.159

to initially give you the support you

Time: 4674.48

need to solve a problem and then we're

Time: 4676.32

going to slowly remove the support so

Time: 4677.76

that you learn to to do it on your own

Time: 4680.159

and I think that those those kinds of

Time: 4681.92

scaffolds are often missing so we

Time: 4683.159

instill the growth mindset like I've got

Time: 4684.6

this belief in my head but I don't know

Time: 4686

what I need to do um to you know to put

Time: 4689

that belief into action and that's where

Time: 4691

um that I guess that that to me is we

Time: 4693.52

have to go beyond mindset we have to

Time: 4694.84

think about how do we put people in a

Time: 4696.6

context that allows them to to put their

Time: 4698.76

beliefs into

Time: 4700.12

practice you are asking me what else do

Time: 4702.44

we need like to support growth mindset

Time: 4705.04

and make it effective right yeah I mean

Time: 4706.92

we know people learn what growth mindset

Time: 4708.6

is it's the idea that you're not as good

Time: 4710.04

at something yet okay terrific but it's

Time: 4713.159

very hard to implement in real time

Time: 4715.4

there are I have to presume additional

Time: 4716.92

tools that one can uh bolster the growth

Time: 4719.159

mindset with make it make it more

Time: 4721.08

accessible um and benefit from it yes so

Time: 4725.04

um Justin Berg and Amy res nesin I uh

Time: 4727.639

studied this actually uh we did um we

Time: 4730.28

were looking at growth mindset at work

Time: 4732.44

and uh Justin's uh well he's at Stanford

Time: 4735.12

I don't know if you met him yet I have

Time: 4736.679

not but big place um he'll be on the

Time: 4740.12

list soon if a brilliant creativity

Time: 4742.92

researcher and Amy just joined us at at

Time: 4745.08

Wharton and uh has fundamentally changed

Time: 4747.52

the way that I think about um ideas um

Time: 4750.8

in the way that she studied how we can

Time: 4752.36

shape our context and just done

Time: 4754.28

pathbreaking work there and we we were

Time: 4756.679

interested in growth mindset and we we

Time: 4759.199

designed an intervention where people

Time: 4760.56

could learn growth mindset at work um so

Time: 4763.48

we taught them to think about how their

Time: 4764.8

skills were malleable how they could

Time: 4766.719

stretch their knowledge into new areas

Time: 4769.08

and we found that teaching them that was

Time: 4770.719

not enough to boost their happiness or

Time: 4772.56

their performance what we needed to also

Time: 4775.12

do was um give them a growth mindset not

Time: 4777.8

just about themselves but also about

Time: 4779.32

their

Time: 4780.08

jobs uh in other words to teach them

Time: 4782.6

that your job is a set of flexible

Time: 4784.28

building blocks that you've got a whole

Time: 4786.199

bunch of tasks that make up your job

Time: 4788.08

some of those are you know are things to

Time: 4790.28

do others are might be interactions that

Time: 4792.44

you need to have and if you break down

Time: 4794.6

your your job into all these tests you

Time: 4796.56

might have some tests that you want to

Time: 4797.76

accentuate and make a bigger part of

Time: 4799

your job others that you want to try to

Time: 4801.04

subtract um others that you might swap

Time: 4803.44

with a colleague and a lot of people it

Time: 4805.8

turns out think their jobs are are fixed

Time: 4807.76

by their job descriptions but in fact

Time: 4809.08

you have a ton of opportunity to say

Time: 4811.239

wait a minute you know there's something

Time: 4812.639

there's a strength I have but I'm not

Time: 4814.56

using it right now is there a way we can

Time: 4815.96

bring that into my work and so um in

Time: 4818.32

these couple experiments we did when we

Time: 4819.679

randomly assigned people to learn both

Time: 4821.52

that their jobs were malleable and that

Time: 4823.12

their skills were malleable um they got

Time: 4825.159

a sustainable boost to their happiness

Time: 4826.719

that lasted at least 6 months there was

Time: 4828.84

no cost to their performance u meaning

Time: 4831

you could to redesign your own job to be

Time: 4833.199

more enjoyable without uh without a drop

Time: 4836.12

in the effectiveness of your

Time: 4837.52

contributions uh to your workplace and I

Time: 4840.679

think what I I came away from that

Time: 4841.92

research realizing is like it's not

Time: 4843.88

enough to just say well well I can get

Time: 4845.76

better I can improve because very often

Time: 4848.6

you feel like your your environment is

Time: 4850.04

limited I'm like great like yeah I can

Time: 4852.12

grow but I'm stuck in a deadend job and

Time: 4854.08

so what we need to do there is um is

Time: 4855.8

open up the opportunity for people to um

Time: 4858.4

to to innovate on their own job

Time: 4859.8

description and then growth mindset can

Time: 4862.28

begin to to have an impact I love it it

Time: 4865.6

sounds a bit like adding a s to growth

Time: 4869.48

growth mindset so it's not growth

Time: 4871.36

mindset it's growth mindsets uh because

Time: 4874.08

earlier you mentioned that in the

Time: 4875.8

classroom environment if the teacher

Time: 4877.199

adopts a growth mindset yes as well as

Time: 4879.12

the students well then you have a

Time: 4880.28

culture of growth mindset so it's the um

Time: 4883.44

interconnectedness of of this and the

Time: 4885.32

and the context in which the

Time: 4886.639

individual's growth mindset exists do I

Time: 4888.32

have that right well put yeah we we

Time: 4889.76

ended up calling it dual mindset um but

Time: 4891.639

I think making it a plural is good

Time: 4893.56

because um you know it's it's not I I

Time: 4896.44

have this image of um you know you you

Time: 4898.8

put a person in a in a cage and then

Time: 4901.52

tell them they're capable of growing

Time: 4903.12

they're still stuck in a cage and so we

Time: 4905.4

need to we need to give them a chance to

Time: 4907.239

to bust through those walls super

Time: 4909.8

important I hate to take us back to an

Time: 4912.199

earlier topic U but there's something

Time: 4914.679

that I meant to ask you that I didn't

Time: 4916.8

and I'm absolutely needing to ask you

Time: 4920

which is your recent work or recentish

Time: 4923

work it was a few years back now and

Time: 4924.76

you're so prolific that I have to call

Time: 4926.96

it a few years back

Time: 4929.56

um the relationship between intrinsic

Time: 4931.96

motivation and performance on other

Time: 4935

tasks um yeah and the reason I asked

Time: 4937.6

this is severalfold

Time: 4939.32

um I did two episodes of the podcast on

Time: 4943.159

ADHD and one of the things that I

Time: 4946

learned in talking to experts on ADHD

Time: 4948.28

people with ADHD as well as looking at

Time: 4950.96

some of the novel treatments everything

Time: 4952.679

from behavioral to prescription drug to

Time: 4955.88

even nutrition-based was that kids and

Time: 4959.8

adults with clinically diagnosed ADHD

Time: 4963.159

are actually terrific at paying

Time: 4964.88

attention to things that they really

Time: 4966.92

enjoy or that they're super interested

Time: 4968.92

in so clearly they have the capacity

Time: 4971.04

it's just that they have um

Time: 4973.199

deficits if you will in attending to

Time: 4976.199

things that are less exciting to them

Time: 4978.92

less intriguing to them so if I recall

Time: 4983.08

correctly uh you have a publication that

Time: 4985.48

explored the relationship between

Time: 4986.76

intrinsic motivation and performance in

Time: 4988.679

other stuff yeah and one of the major

Time: 4992

conclusions was that having a deep deep

Time: 4994.44

interest in one thing might not be the

Time: 4997.159

best uh condition for performing well at

Time: 5000

other less interesting tasks Could you

Time: 5002.159

um could you tell us about that study

Time: 5004.44

what what motivated you to carry out

Time: 5006.6

that study and what some of the major

Time: 5008.199

takeaways were yeah definitely um you

Time: 5010.239

you summarize it really well I think um

Time: 5013.04

the the original impetus so this was

Time: 5014.4

another project with G shin and uh G

Time: 5016.84

came to me want wanting to study

Time: 5018.04

intrinsic motivation and we were talking

Time: 5020.76

about what do we know about intrinsic

Time: 5022.48

motivation and what are the gaps in our

Time: 5023.679

knowledge and one thing that has always

Time: 5026.04

bothered me is when psychologists study

Time: 5028.8

something that sounds positive and they

Time: 5030.28

only study the benefits of it like

Time: 5032.159

there's no no such thing as an

Time: 5033.04

unmitigated good right all all all sort

Time: 5036.76

of enjoyable experiences have costs all

Time: 5039.56

unpleasant experiences can have benefits

Time: 5041.96

we need to we need to fill out this two

Time: 5043.36

by two of good thing bad thing um good

Time: 5047

outcome bad outcome um and so my

Time: 5050.04

challenge to her was can you show me the

Time: 5052.32

Dark Side of intrinsic motivation and

Time: 5054.719

she came back and she said what if

Time: 5056.6

there's a cost of loving a task leading

Time: 5059.52

you to hate a task that you don't like

Time: 5061.56

even more than you did before I like oh

Time: 5063.639

that's an interesting idea it tracks

Time: 5064.719

with the basic psychology of contrast

Time: 5066.44

effects uh where um you know if you eat

Time: 5070.239

something delicious then your least

Time: 5072.04

favorite food tastes a little bit worse

Time: 5074.28

afterward and so I said let's let's

Time: 5076.4

study this so um she ended up getting

Time: 5078

data from um from people at work and

Time: 5080.52

then we also designed an experiment and

Time: 5082.199

sure enough uh the the more passionate

Time: 5084.8

you are on task one the more your

Time: 5087

performance suffers if task two is

Time: 5088.84

really boring and I guess what what this

Time: 5091.719

did for me is it made me think

Time: 5092.76

differently about task sequencing I used

Time: 5094.639

to wake up in the morning and do my most

Time: 5096.8

interesting task first and then the

Time: 5099.44

grading was hell and what I do now is I

Time: 5102.84

start with a moderately interesting task

Time: 5104.48

it's a little bit of a warm-up for me

Time: 5105.92

and then I have an exciting one to look

Time: 5107.44

forward to and if I do have a task

Time: 5109.32

that's boring but important I think the

Time: 5111

performance is going to suffer

Time: 5112.719

less interesting um I normally don't ask

Time: 5117.4

about morning routines and how one

Time: 5119.56

structures a day because it's highly

Time: 5121.28

individual completely agree yeah and and

Time: 5123.92

it depends on whether or not people have

Time: 5125.36

kids and they're pets and you know other

Time: 5128.96

uh but I'll just share with you a brief

Time: 5130.8

anecdote I have a friend who's a very

Time: 5132.08

accomplished musician and has been for

Time: 5133.8

for several decades now and he told me

Time: 5135.92

that he has a practice of after he gets

Time: 5138.32

off stage and he's like Stadium Stadium

Time: 5140.48

sellout level um

Time: 5143.159

musician um has been for a long time and

Time: 5145.84

shows no signs of stopping just

Time: 5148.28

incredible but a very down toe person um

Time: 5150.96

and he said one of the first things does

Time: 5152.76

when he gets off stage is to go do some

Time: 5155.36

menial task I thought there's no way

Time: 5157.44

that's true but I've known his wife

Time: 5158.679

since college and she she verified that

Time: 5161.36

statement I was like what what sorts of

Time: 5163.199

medial task you talking about he's like

Time: 5164.6

oh like cleaning up some of the cans and

Time: 5166.44

things that are there maybe even

Time: 5167.6

cleaning a toilet at a venue and I

Time: 5170.92

thought no chance but it turns out to be

Time: 5173.04

true and I said what what's this about

Time: 5174.44

is this about humility he said well

Time: 5176.44

maybe a little bit but he said it

Time: 5178

actually makes it a lot easier for him

Time: 5179.84

to return home and deal with the kind of

Time: 5182.76

little things that just are out of scale

Time: 5187.08

with the experiences that he just had

Time: 5189.199

he's tapering way okay I think yeah yeah

Time: 5193.28

I I first of all I was so struck by the

Time: 5195.92

fact that he had um created this process

Time: 5197.76

for himself so long ago and he's also

Time: 5199.92

somebody who's you know he's maintained

Time: 5201.6

he's like been the same marriage for an

Time: 5202.96

extremely long time he's he's extremely

Time: 5205.239

happy in that and his family I mean see

Time: 5206.96

one of these people that seems to thrive

Time: 5208.32

in all domains of life and I'm certain

Time: 5210.199

that he struggles in some domain of life

Time: 5211.92

because everybody does but um it sound

Time: 5215.239

to me like a very unusual practice but

Time: 5217.239

it seems to kind of relate to this that

Time: 5218.8

you know he has this thing that he loves

Time: 5220.159

doing playing music and performing in

Time: 5222.159

particular and he's just you know you

Time: 5223.88

know

Time: 5224.719

.01% at doing that um then just like

Time: 5228.44

bring himself back down to Earth because

Time: 5230.52

so much of life and especially family

Time: 5232.239

life is like dealing with the the

Time: 5234.56

Schmutz and the inconvenience of

Time: 5236.6

everyday life yeah he's it's it actually

Time: 5239

sounds like what he's doing is he's

Time: 5240.04

resetting his frame of reference to say

Time: 5242.719

if you know if I go right home then the

Time: 5245.32

contrast between you this high octane

Time: 5247.639

experience I'm having um and sort of

Time: 5250.6

muddling through everyday life um is

Time: 5253.4

going to be extreme if I do something

Time: 5255.119

really small then um family time is

Time: 5257.8

going to seem a lot bigger yeah so I

Time: 5260.639

realize I'm I'm taking a bit of a leap

Time: 5262.44

from your study on intrinsic motivation

Time: 5264.119

and and low performance in in other

Time: 5266.36

domains but you know to me cleaning up

Time: 5269.56

cleaning a toilet is you know I it's

Time: 5272.159

it's uh it's boring for all the wrong

Time: 5274.36

reasons right um as you said you do not

Time: 5277.08

want that to be an exciting no and and

Time: 5279

listen I mean if I had to do it for a

Time: 5280.52

living I would you right and I would try

Time: 5281.96

and do as well as possible and uh uh but

Time: 5284.88

um right so well I found that study to

Time: 5288.32

be particularly interesting because I

Time: 5289.92

think that these days we um we glorify

Time: 5293.84

high performance even quotquot Peak

Time: 5296.8

Performance um something we can talk

Time: 5298.719

about and we forget that um yes often

Time: 5302.119

times people who are ultra high

Time: 5303.56

performers can afford to pay other

Time: 5305.08

people to do all the other stuff but I

Time: 5307.199

have to say in knowing some ultra high

Time: 5308.76

performers and in knowing some people in

Time: 5310.8

the um billionaire bracket you know

Time: 5313.76

there's a high incidence of of mental

Time: 5317.28

health issues frankly and um lack of

Time: 5320.199

satisfaction with life that maybe even

Time: 5322.679

comes from not um having to do anything

Time: 5325.84

besides the things that you find most

Time: 5327.52

intrinsically rewarding um we all think

Time: 5330.36

that oh I if I could I spend all day

Time: 5332.76

doing the things that I find most

Time: 5334.159

intrinsically rewarding but maybe

Time: 5335.92

there's something about this Push Pull

Time: 5337.239

we know the brain works in push pull

Time: 5338.96

with almost everything that having some

Time: 5340.92

experiences each day that are kind of

Time: 5342.92

like H this a thing again do you think

Time: 5345.36

that heightens our level of satisfaction

Time: 5347.119

for the things we really enjoy I would

Time: 5349.48

be surprised if it didn't uh I think I

Time: 5352.36

think contrast effects are very powerful

Time: 5354.48

and we know I mean the there's half a

Time: 5358.6

century of research on happiness

Time: 5360.639

suggesting that the comparisons we make

Time: 5363.36

are what matter um you know I think I

Time: 5366.48

think Tim Urban probably put it best

Time: 5368.04

when he said happiness is reality minus

Time: 5371.04

expectations and if you only have

Time: 5373.36

enjoyable experiences your expectations

Time: 5375.76

are

Time: 5377.6

rising into perpetuity uh so it doesn't

Time: 5380.76

matter how good your reality is you

Time: 5382.36

wanted it to be better and better um I

Time: 5384.96

think one of the things that mundane

Time: 5386.48

experiences um managed to do for us uh

Time: 5389.679

or maybe a better way to say it is I

Time: 5391.239

think one of the benefit fit of mhen

Time: 5392.679

experiences is they keep our

Time: 5394.239

expectations on the ground uh and allow

Time: 5396.679

us to be pleasantly surprised by you

Time: 5398.96

know a task that was more interesting

Time: 5400.44

than we expected even though we didn't

Time: 5401.96

love it what are your thoughts on um

Time: 5405.52

what I call Momentum which is when I

Time: 5407.88

have um an experience that I

Time: 5409.56

particularly like like if we record a

Time: 5411.04

podcast and I'm really excited to get it

Time: 5412.56

out into the world or if I have some

Time: 5414.44

experience that I'm left you know very

Time: 5416

excited by at the end that often times

Time: 5418.239

the energy again I'm obsessed with this

Time: 5420.88

concept of neural energy

Time: 5422.76

the the energy that I gan from that

Time: 5425.639

experience seems to have carryover into

Time: 5427.719

other things like you know I'm going to

Time: 5429.92

be much more excited to just go across

Time: 5431.6

the street and get a cup of coffee feels

Time: 5433.639

like a bigger thing than it normally

Time: 5435.84

would um and I would think that one

Time: 5438.119

could kind of ride the wake of a of a

Time: 5440.239

prior accomplishment even a small

Time: 5442.28

accomplishment each day and make the you

Time: 5444.199

know tidying up of or doing things that

Time: 5446.6

one would normally find more boring less

Time: 5448.32

boring is that true the way you're

Time: 5450.76

describing contrast effects makes it

Time: 5452.159

seem like it's more of a cliff like that

Time: 5454.04

thing was great and now this thing but I

Time: 5456.159

also can kind of ride high on um

Time: 5458.36

something that happened 2 3 days ago

Time: 5459.679

maybe even two three months ago if so

Time: 5462.28

feeling good equates to feeling good or

Time: 5465.119

feeling good uh accentuates the the bad

Time: 5468.8

stuff this is the tension between

Time: 5470.52

contrast and spillover and you can see

Time: 5473.08

both under different conditions I think

Time: 5475.199

where this is I this is a brand new sort

Time: 5477.28

of I don't think anybody's reconciled

Time: 5479.28

those two two perspectives yet but my

Time: 5480.92

hunch from having work on the contrast

Time: 5482.52

part of it is we found that it was only

Time: 5485

extreme intrinsic motivation that had

Time: 5487.04

the performance cost on other tasks so

Time: 5489.639

if you're if you're enjoying something

Time: 5491.8

um if you like it uh that will give you

Time: 5494.119

a lift for other tests um it's it's

Time: 5496.52

where this is the best thing you've ever

Time: 5498.04

done and now other things suck by

Time: 5501.639

comparison um that's where we start to

Time: 5503.4

see run into a problem I also wonder um

Time: 5506.52

if there's a domain switching effect

Time: 5508.48

here um I think you're you're alluding

Time: 5510.239

to this um I I read some research that

Time: 5512.92

just came out this year showing that um

Time: 5514.92

one of the benefits one of the

Time: 5516

surprising benefits of morning workouts

Time: 5518.04

is you actually have more confidence in

Time: 5519.92

your job uh because you get that small

Time: 5522.239

win like I accomplished something this

Time: 5523.96

morning and that gives you a sense of

Time: 5525.88

efficacy that you can carry over into

Time: 5527.84

your you know the start of your work day

Time: 5530.159

uh not to suggest that everyone should

Time: 5531.36

work out in the morning because I'm I'm

Time: 5532.6

with you I think everybody should you

Time: 5534.639

know both work and work out at a time

Time: 5536.719

that works for them but I think um I

Time: 5540.04

think there's something to be said for

Time: 5541.96

uh something went really well in one

Time: 5543.92

realm of my life and that boosts my

Time: 5546.199

belief in my capability to tackle

Time: 5548.159

challenges in a different realm what

Time: 5550.719

about in the opposite direction uh you

Time: 5552.4

were a competitive diver um I have to

Time: 5556.4

presume that there were days when you

Time: 5558.08

had lousy Dives it must have been that

Time: 5560.6

that one day Adam felt like every day

Time: 5563.96

and then you you leave you know you you

Time: 5566.36

you shower up dry off head head into the

Time: 5570

rest of your day and you know how do we

Time: 5572.08

segment away from the you know negative

Time: 5575.119

thought spirals of like something went

Time: 5576.679

really poorly and now you're off into

Time: 5578.159

the domain of life where you can do you

Time: 5580.08

know how to do the things that you're

Time: 5581.08

required to do but maybe there's some

Time: 5582.28

Challenge and some learning involved how

Time: 5584.239

do we cut Moes between negative

Time: 5587.76

experiences I think uh I mean the Ted

Time: 5590.44

lasso strategy is ideal become a

Time: 5592.199

goldfish 10-second memory and then you

Time: 5594.6

don't even you don't even recall the

Time: 5596.6

practice you had earlier today I think

Time: 5599.44

that I don't know anybody who can do

Time: 5601.199

that

Time: 5602.28

consistently um and I think the more

Time: 5604.119

disappointing the experience is the more

Time: 5605.88

you tend to to dwell on it I

Time: 5609.76

think uh when when you talk about

Time: 5611.84

segmenting negative

Time: 5613.8

experiences I think the probably the

Time: 5616.679

research that I've liked best on this

Time: 5618.4

and I just want to I want to make sure I

Time: 5619.8

capture this

Time: 5621.199

clearly um I basically so research on

Time: 5625.28

emotion regulation says there there are

Time: 5627.08

two strategies that tend to be effective

Time: 5629.119

one is distraction the other is

Time: 5630.6

reframing

Time: 5632.32

uh so distraction is you know find

Time: 5635.08

something else that will consume your

Time: 5636.36

attention um that's unrelated to the

Time: 5638.639

thing that you just bombed at uh and the

Time: 5640.76

hope is that you know that that Fades

Time: 5642.48

into the background reframing is a lot

Time: 5645.44

of what you were talking about a few

Time: 5646.44

minutes ago which is okay let me Focus

Time: 5648.56

you know not on the level of my

Time: 5649.679

performance but the slope um my diving

Time: 5652.159

coach Eric best uh has a really great

Time: 5654.76

set of questions that he he asks and you

Time: 5657.719

know I I I remember I would i' finish

Time: 5659.76

practice like this is a terrible day I

Time: 5662.239

just feel like I'm worthless as a diver

Time: 5664.639

and now diving was a big part of my

Time: 5666.28

identity I'm going to let my team down

Time: 5667.96

now I'm a bad teammate too my coach is

Time: 5670.04

wasting his time and like now you know

Time: 5673.36

he could have been you know training

Time: 5674.6

somebody much better like why am I doing

Time: 5676.56

this and Eric would ask uh did you make

Time: 5679.44

yourself better

Time: 5681.08

today and even if it was a bad practice

Time: 5683.679

there is something that improved yes

Time: 5686.4

okay and sometimes the answer feels like

Time: 5688.92

no and then he would ask did you make

Time: 5691.119

someone else better today like yeah I

Time: 5693.56

gave a little tip to a teammate um you

Time: 5696.719

know

Time: 5697.8

I I made a joke that you know that made

Time: 5700.76

everybody laugh and he was like great

Time: 5702.88

then it wasn't a bad day and I I think

Time: 5705.719

this is this is an example of what good

Time: 5707.48

reframing looks like um to say okay the

Time: 5709.8

goal wasn't to be great it was to be

Time: 5711.44

better the goal wasn't necessarily just

Time: 5714.199

to make myself better it was also to

Time: 5715.56

make other people better um and I think

Time: 5718.36

those are the kinds of questions that

Time: 5719.96

seem to segment pretty well

Time: 5722.159

I love that feedback because I think we

Time: 5724.28

all get stuck in those thought Spirals

Time: 5726.88

and um again not to demonize smartphones

Time: 5729.44

because they are wonderful tools but I

Time: 5731.6

have to remember the time I'm 48 years

Time: 5733.8

old uh as of tomorrow and I have to

Time: 5736.679

remember a time in which um negative

Time: 5739.8

stuff was probably happening in the

Time: 5741.239

background but I didn't hear about it

Time: 5742.8

because no one was texting it to me so

Time: 5744.239

I'd find out at the end of the day when

Time: 5745.8

I still had time to do other things in

Time: 5747.119

the meantime right um that said I would

Time: 5750.44

also get Negative experiences early in

Time: 5752.28

the day and then carry them throughout

Time: 5753.48

the entire day when nowadays you can get

Time: 5755.04

a positive text message that says okay

Time: 5756.679

it wasn't so bad um or something like

Time: 5759

that but um I do think as is probably

Time: 5762.84

becoming apparent about um these

Time: 5765

channels of communication are

Time: 5767.28

are either bounds or disruptions to our

Time: 5770.28

our positive psychology it's clear that

Time: 5772.32

we're just like being bombarded all the

Time: 5773.88

time so um just as a as a practical

Time: 5776.84

question uh what is your relationship to

Time: 5779.639

your phone um do you set boundaries

Time: 5783.159

around your phone use or the types of

Time: 5785.639

communications and activities that you

Time: 5787.28

engage with on your phone I do so

Time: 5790.92

everyone I think everyone I know has a

Time: 5792.48

to-do list I also have a to don't list

Time: 5795.52

and on my to don't list includes I don't

Time: 5797.92

scroll on social media and I don't pick

Time: 5800.679

up my phone uh past 900m and those those

Time: 5804.239

two habits are enormously helpful

Time: 5805.48

particularly in the not scrolling um I

Time: 5807.48

pick up my phone when I have something

Time: 5809.28

to post or when I want to see what the

Time: 5812.32

comments are and then see if there's

Time: 5813.88

something interesting to learn or or

Time: 5815.76

somebody that I want to respond to um

Time: 5818.199

and that that that becomes a really

Time: 5819.48

healthy boundary because I don't get

Time: 5821.04

stuck in one of these rabbit holes where

Time: 5822.92

all of a sudden two hours have gone by

Time: 5824.719

and I feel like uh I feel like I wasted

Time: 5826.88

my time uh where do you post or keep

Time: 5830.6

your to-do and your to don't list do you

Time: 5832.76

keep them on your phone no it's a Word

Time: 5835

document on of my computer okay so

Time: 5836.92

you're still at the computer screen

Time: 5838.199

quite a bit each day yeah okay I I feel

Time: 5840.719

like that's where most of my good

Time: 5842.52

thinking and writing happens MH yeah I

Time: 5845.159

carry a small notebook around with me

Time: 5846.679

now and write things down I was just

Time: 5848.56

curious one of these yeah well like one

Time: 5850.92

of those yeah yeah I try not to take

Time: 5852.76

notes on my phone ever right yeah it's

Time: 5855.92

it can be problematic for me uh

Time: 5857.76

especially with with voice recognition

Time: 5859.639

now because you just it's hard to go

Time: 5861.32

back to that in a systematic way for me

Time: 5863.4

but I'm a big believer in these these

Time: 5865.239

things that but for those listening and

Time: 5866.48

not watching I'm holding up a pen so

Time: 5868.48

like pencils work too you you've

Time: 5870.28

probably read some of the research also

Time: 5871.52

showing that you have a better memory

Time: 5873.28

for information when you take notes by

Time: 5875.28

hand than by keyboard uh I didn't know

Time: 5877.639

that but I'm very very gratified to hear

Time: 5880.119

that so the and I suppose if you don't

Time: 5882.119

have a pen and you don't have uh a

Time: 5884.4

pencil handy then you know blood always

Time: 5886.04

works just kidding I'm just kidding

Time: 5887.679

don't don't don't uh don't make yourself

Time: 5889.639

or anyone else bleed just to get an idea

Time: 5891.32

down but it is amazing how sometimes we

Time: 5893.199

will have ideas while running walking

Time: 5895

showering out and about and then later

Time: 5897.56

trying to recall those ideas and if we

Time: 5898.96

don't write them down they're gone the

Time: 5900.159

great Joe Strummer from The Clash talked

Time: 5901.96

about the critical importance of

Time: 5903.44

carrying around a small notebook such as

Time: 5905.159

you did because he said that the ideas

Time: 5907.28

Fall Down Like Rain and if you catch

Time: 5909.719

them they're there but if you miss them

Time: 5911.199

they truly won't be there later and

Time: 5913.44

that's there's something kind of eerie

Time: 5914.92

about that like why wouldn't we be able

Time: 5916.639

to remember these potential gems of

Time: 5918.719

ideas all right the the the geysering up

Time: 5921.679

of the mind we had a guest on this

Time: 5923.88

podcast for a series Dr Paul KY um

Time: 5927

psychiatrist um and he talked

Time: 5929.88

extensively about the unconscious ious

Time: 5931.4

mind I mentioned this a little earlier

Time: 5933.04

but uh one of the things that really

Time: 5934.36

stuck with me is he said you know

Time: 5935.599

everyone thinks that the prefrontal

Time: 5937.639

cortex and the frontal cortex is the

Time: 5939.239

supercomputer of the human brain sets

Time: 5942.119

context planning strategy switching etc

Time: 5945.28

etc certainly it's valuable real estate

Time: 5948.119

to our intellect and all our abilities

Time: 5951.199

but he said you know the the real

Time: 5953.32

supercomputer is the unconscious mind

Time: 5956.639

however that unconscious mind that lives

Time: 5958.84

below the surface of our awareness is

Time: 5960.84

also what drives a lot of our

Time: 5962.04

unconscious defenses so our so-called

Time: 5964.48

blind spots so projection projective

Time: 5966.84

identification you know I mean these

Time: 5968.159

have these can be both good or bad they

Time: 5969.76

can serve us well or or poorly uh and so

Time: 5972.719

on and so forth but implied in this

Time: 5976.32

notion of the unconscious in blind spots

Time: 5978.36

is that we can't become aware of things

Time: 5980.719

unless we either do dedicated work to

Time: 5983.159

become aware of them or even better

Time: 5985.88

would be dedicated work where we are

Time: 5987.84

asking other people to say Hey listen

Time: 5990.52

you have a blind spot and it is blank

Time: 5992.639

blank and blank so tell us um about the

Time: 5995.48

role of blind spots maybe even some

Time: 5997.48

positive aspects of having blind spots

Time: 6000.28

but more importantly what we can do to

Time: 6002.84

fill in those blind spots and and uh

Time: 6005.92

perhaps also explain how how they can

Time: 6007.44

limit us and if you have any examples

Time: 6009.36

that um from the research where um

Time: 6011.719

people overcoming their blind spots has

Time: 6013.88

benefited them that would be amazing

Time: 6016.159

yeah wow there's a lot there let me well

Time: 6018.239

let me start by saying I

Time: 6019.96

think a lot of people think about blind

Time: 6021.96

spots in terms of heris sixs and biases

Time: 6024.32

so you think about confirmation bias you

Time: 6026.119

think about the the classic Conan tersi

Time: 6028.599

work uh that ended up winning Dan a

Time: 6030.48

Nobel Prize on um you know the the way

Time: 6033.199

in which um you know our intuitive

Time: 6035.4

judgments um often get anchored in the

Time: 6037.44

way we've done things before um or you

Time: 6040

know we focus on the information that's

Time: 6041.8

San and available to us and Overlook you

Time: 6043.84

know less obvious information I've come

Time: 6046.28

to think that the the mother of all

Time: 6048.44

biases is uh what I what I think of as

Time: 6051.04

that I'm not biased

Time: 6052.56

bias um it's it's technically called the

Time: 6054.8

bias blind spot in Emily pron and and

Time: 6056.599

colleagues research but the idea is that

Time: 6059.239

I think I'm more objective than other

Time: 6060.8

people and you may have your you may

Time: 6062.639

have flaws in your thinking Andrew but

Time: 6064.48

me like I I see things clearly and

Time: 6067.159

rationally and I think that this is a

Time: 6069.239

it's a really dangerous metabias because

Time: 6071.4

the moment you believe you're not biased

Time: 6073.52

you are incapable of seeing any of your

Time: 6076

biases um so in some of the research on

Time: 6079.48

the bias blind spot you see that um that

Time: 6081.96

people who have um who score high in

Time: 6084.48

cognitive ability tests so you know high

Time: 6086.159

IQ are actually more likely to fall

Time: 6088.239

victim to the I'm not biased bias

Time: 6090.599

because they've been reinforced for a

Time: 6092.599

lifetime uh that they're really smart

Time: 6095.48

and they're good at thinking oh goodness

Time: 6097.04

this explains some uh we don't talk

Time: 6099.48

about current events on this podcast

Time: 6100.92

much but this explains some current

Time: 6102.28

events uh people that were told their

Time: 6103.92

entire careers that they are perfect or

Time: 6105.599

near perfect and um uh yeah

Time: 6108.4

circumstances eventually came to you

Time: 6110.36

know slam them hard into the concrete on

Time: 6112.32

that one or or in some cases it hasn't

Time: 6115.28

happened yet but we we watch them

Time: 6118.4

hurdling toward Earth um so I I worry a

Time: 6122.199

lot about that so I think the beginning

Time: 6123.8

of you know of seeing any blind spot is

Time: 6126.04

recognizing that we all have blind spots

Time: 6127.44

it's part of Being Human um I think that

Time: 6130.52

the brighter side of that is that we're

Time: 6132.199

not just blind to weaknesses we're also

Time: 6133.599

blind to our strengths um so Jane Dutton

Time: 6137.599

and Laura Morgan Roberts and colleagues

Time: 6140

uh did some research on the reflected

Time: 6141.639

best self-portrait this is one of my

Time: 6143.159

favorite exercises to do in the

Time: 6144.639

classroom but also to do in workplaces

Time: 6147

sometimes even people end up doing it

Time: 6148.719

with their kids at home the idea is that

Time: 6151.599

you know you do have strengths that

Time: 6152.719

you're not that aware of uh they may be

Time: 6154.28

things that come naturally to you that

Time: 6155.48

you don't even realize are hard for

Time: 6156.639

other people they may be things that are

Time: 6158.56

struggles for you um and so you you

Time: 6161

think it's hard to do and therefore I'm

Time: 6162.88

bad at it but other people watch you do

Time: 6164.599

it and realize you're actually quite

Time: 6166.32

good at it so the you need other people

Time: 6168.92

to hold up a mirror to see what these

Time: 6171.119

invisible strengths are so the way the

Time: 6173.159

reflective best self Exercise Works is

Time: 6175.119

you're asked to contact 10 to 20 people

Time: 6176.8

who know you well in different walks of

Time: 6178.119

life might be a family member a couple

Time: 6179.88

friends some colleagues and then you ask

Time: 6182.599

them to tell a story about a time when

Time: 6184.48

you were at your best and you collect

Time: 6187.04

these stories it's it's the most

Time: 6188.92

exciting week of email you will ever get

Time: 6191.44

20 notes let me tell you how great you

Time: 6193.159

are but what's key this goes back to our

Time: 6195.44

discussion of feedback earlier is

Time: 6196.88

they're really specific about a moment

Time: 6198.92

when you are at your best and then your

Time: 6201.239

job is to collect all the stories and do

Time: 6202.76

the pattern recognition exercise and ask

Time: 6205.28

what are the common themes that I've

Time: 6206.84

seen through these stories and it's a

Time: 6209.32

it's a really powerful and Vivid way of

Time: 6211.56

of getting a sense of what are those

Time: 6212.96

strengths and um you know it's not

Time: 6215.08

surprising that in some of the research

Time: 6216.52

when people go through this process um

Time: 6218.4

they end up with much more clarity not

Time: 6220.36

only about what they're what they're

Time: 6222

good at and where their potential lies

Time: 6223.679

but also how do I like what do those

Time: 6225.639

situations have in common where I was

Time: 6227.28

able to use my strengths and how do I

Time: 6228.96

get myself in those situations more

Time: 6230.36

often how do I create those situations

Time: 6232.36

more often um I I'll give you a personal

Time: 6234.599

example on this so I I got a bunch of

Time: 6237.32

feedback that uh I was good at helping

Time: 6239.96

other people see their

Time: 6241.92

strengths and I thought okay I don't

Time: 6245.239

feel like I have enough opportunities to

Time: 6246.639

use that strength in my daily life so

Time: 6248.639

what am I going to do about this and I

Time: 6250.8

ended up flipping the exercise upside

Time: 6252.239

down and I picked a 100 people who um

Time: 6255.639

really mattered to me and I wrote a

Time: 6257.679

story to each of them about a time when

Time: 6259.159

they were at their best

Time: 6261.199

and I'm like there's there's no reason I

Time: 6262.96

can't I can't make this part of my day

Time: 6266.199

um it's probably it was it was probably

Time: 6268.199

one of the best weeks of My Life um it

Time: 6270.119

was better than getting the stories was

Time: 6271.84

was giving them uh and I got these notes

Time: 6274.04

back from people saying you know I I

Time: 6276.08

didn't realize I don't even remember

Time: 6277.92

that thing that

Time: 6279.28

happened um but I think for me it was an

Time: 6282.08

example of saying okay um you know I've

Time: 6286

I've always enjoyed um trying to bring

Time: 6288.119

out the best in others uh I don't feel

Time: 6290.56

feel like at the time I was a I was a

Time: 6292.239

first year doctoral student I didn't

Time: 6293.76

feel like I had anything to contribute

Time: 6295.119

to others I'm try I'm trying to learn

Time: 6297.88

how to you know understand this field

Time: 6299.88

and you know do a worthwhile study and

Time: 6302.08

write a paper I'm not teaching yet I

Time: 6304.159

have no value to add and getting this

Time: 6306.84

feedback like oh you're somebody who

Time: 6308.48

helps other people see their potential

Time: 6310.44

I'm like all right let me let me take

Time: 6311.719

some people that I you know I already

Time: 6313.36

recognize um really amazing things in

Time: 6315.76

and let me just tell them that uh and it

Time: 6319.199

took me about a week to write the the

Time: 6320.719

100 emails and um I can't think of a a

Time: 6324.28

week I've spent better wow it's so

Time: 6327.4

interesting that you flipped the process

Time: 6329.08

on its head a bit um or a lot and that

Time: 6334.28

ended up being the reward do you think

Time: 6335.84

you learned anything about given that it

Time: 6337.84

was early in your academic career do you

Time: 6339.84

think you um learned anything about your

Time: 6342.719

uh particular Talent OR desire to to do

Time: 6346.48

what you do now I mean so much of what

Time: 6348.32

you described it seems to map well to

Time: 6350.599

what you do now I mean you could be uh

Time: 6352.88

if you were to choose or have chosen uh

Time: 6355.719

just not just but a laboratory scientist

Time: 6358.599

doing experiments um you're clearly

Time: 6360.32

still doing that at a with a tremendous

Time: 6362.8

productivity but you've also decided to

Time: 6366.239

tell the world about the information

Time: 6368.159

that you're Gathering and the work of a

Time: 6369.679

lot of other people as well I guess I

Time: 6371.04

feel a kinship here because we both do

Time: 6372.76

this um much much more interesting toite

Time: 6375.44

other people's work than talk about what

Time: 6376.76

you already know it is indeed um and

Time: 6378.8

it's fun to be able to to weave one's

Time: 6381

understanding of the process into you

Time: 6382.56

know like what are other people doing

Time: 6384.36

and know how hard it is to do really

Time: 6386.239

good experiments and um be able to spot

Time: 6388.32

really good experiments but you did you

Time: 6390.719

learn in that early um stage of your

Time: 6393.44

career that like I think I want to do

Time: 6395.719

this later because what you do now is it

Time: 6397.92

Maps pretty well onto what you just

Time: 6399.679

described I I don't think it was it

Time: 6402.84

wasn't crystallized at the time but it

Time: 6404.199

was definitely one of those seeds that

Time: 6405.92

was planted that that must have grown

Time: 6408.8

because I I remember right after I got

Time: 6412.679

tenure uh a wonderful colleague of mine

Time: 6415.679

asked if I would write a book with him

Time: 6417.639

and I was so flattered and I went into

Time: 6419.32

to talk to my undergrad research lab

Time: 6420.96

later that day and I you know I

Time: 6422.4

mentioned off hand I like hey and you I

Time: 6424.44

got this invite I'm going to write this

Time: 6425.639

book and they freaked out like no you

Time: 6429.8

cannot write somebody else's book you

Time: 6431.32

have to write about your ideas first

Time: 6433.52

like if you're G to write a book write

Time: 6434.639

your own book and I I I was very

Time: 6438.56

resistant because I love other people's

Time: 6440.04

ideas

Time: 6441.32

no I what I I feel like what I do best

Time: 6444.32

um I think it was um boy who wrote about

Time: 6447.76

the scholarship of Discovery versus the

Time: 6449.76

scholarship of

Time: 6451.04

integration and I never felt like I was

Time: 6453.32

a Eureka you know blindingly you know

Time: 6457.04

original Insight person I felt like what

Time: 6458.92

I was good at was synthesizing ideas um

Time: 6461.88

and you know kind of taking a bunch of

Time: 6464.88

um you know pieces of cloth and and

Time: 6466.52

sewing them into a quilt and allowing

Time: 6468.199

people to see the big picture in a way

Time: 6469.52

they hadn't before and I felt like I

Time: 6471.08

could do that with a colleague who was

Time: 6472.28

already a successful author and my

Time: 6474.08

students basically held me hostage and

Time: 6476.199

they said you've been doing this

Time: 6477.56

research for you know for over a decade

Time: 6479.599

now and you have a responsibility to

Time: 6481.44

share that outside your

Time: 6483.159

classroom and it reminded me of of that

Time: 6486.88

experience of saying okay there's

Time: 6488.4

something I see in other people I want

Time: 6490.44

to share it with them um and maybe I

Time: 6493.52

could do that on a broader scale so yeah

Time: 6495.76

I think there was there were definitely

Time: 6497

dots that connected

Time: 6498.36

there when I was uh a master student at

Time: 6501.239

Berkeley there was a guy who's now moved

Time: 6502.84

to Michigan State Mark Breedlove who I

Time: 6504.56

hope to host on the podcast actually is

Time: 6506.239

this really interest does really

Time: 6507.48

interesting work on the biology of

Time: 6508.84

sexual differentiation and um Mark I

Time: 6511.32

think that's an invite if you're

Time: 6512.28

listening yeah right uh and he um it is

Time: 6516

indeed and he said to me he said you

Time: 6519.04

know review articles provided they are

Time: 6522.04

written by people who um are

Time: 6524.76

credentialed in a given field are cited

Time: 6527.88

at you know 100x anyone particular paper

Time: 6531.8

now at the time I wasn't interested in

Time: 6534.08

um uh impact factors in fact I've never

Time: 6536.599

paid any attention to impact factors

Time: 6538.599

they their importance varies in in

Time: 6540.44

different countries and um in the US

Time: 6543

they they play some role um more so in

Time: 6545.52

Europe but I I could care less about

Time: 6547.32

impact factor frankly um because those

Time: 6549.719

those metrics aren't what it's going to

Time: 6552.28

carry you through the difficulty of

Time: 6553.719

Designing and carrying out a hard

Time: 6555

experiment you have to be intrinsically

Time: 6556.8

curious about the answer right you know

Time: 6558.32

this and I know this but um

Time: 6560.679

but he basically said uh What uh

Time: 6563.159

something that's really supports your

Time: 6564.56

point um which is that ultimately the

Time: 6567.119

ability to synthesize information is can

Time: 6569

feel um really good and he started

Time: 6571.56

talking about the the the feeling that

Time: 6573.119

he got from doing that he's also a

Time: 6575.119

tremendous bench scientist as well in

Time: 6576.88

any event um I'm so glad that you

Time: 6578.52

flipped that exercise on its head

Time: 6580.32

because now the world gets to benefit

Time: 6581.92

from you doing that for us all the time

Time: 6583.4

because I I realize now that much of

Time: 6585.119

what you do is to help um people

Time: 6587.92

identify and erase their blind spots by

Time: 6591.44

um and I love your social media channels

Time: 6593.719

um and I noted uh on Instagram and I do

Time: 6596.88

scroll but but I scroll through into

Time: 6599.48

your your channel too um you know you'll

Time: 6602.08

put up in short form content that that

Time: 6604.76

really highlights the key importance of

Time: 6607.199

people embarking on strategies that they

Time: 6609.36

wouldn't reflexively take that that I

Time: 6611.44

see that over and over again it's like

Time: 6613.239

we think that the best leaders do blank

Time: 6615.44

but actually the research says they do

Time: 6617.119

exactly the opposite and and you have a

Time: 6619.239

a vast um

Time: 6620.92

kit of those so along those lines you

Time: 6623.199

know what are some of the most common

Time: 6624.639

blind spots that um You observe uh and

Time: 6628.08

that people could benefit from

Time: 6629.76

understanding and and um doing contrary

Time: 6632.239

action uh around as it relates to uh

Time: 6635.92

let's say interpersonal relations in the

Time: 6637.88

workplace or at home and and and maybe

Time: 6640

we could um seed this with uh a finding

Time: 6642.76

that you've also written about which is

Time: 6644.119

that you know people who have and exert

Time: 6647.36

a lot of proficiency and even control in

Time: 6649.52

their profession life will sometimes

Time: 6651.44

bring that to their relationship life

Time: 6653.719

and that doesn't work right the idea

Time: 6655.599

that like being in charge and being

Time: 6657

confident is a great is a great set of

Time: 6659.599

attributes um but it can really fail us

Time: 6662.4

in other domains uh can we weave that in

Time: 6664.44

with blind spots yeah we can so I think

Time: 6668.679

that so one of the things I I found over

Time: 6671.159

the past few years is that and this was

Time: 6673.52

inspired by a a Phil tetlock framework

Time: 6675.84

um a lot of us spend a lot of our time

Time: 6677.679

thinking like preachers prosecutors or

Time: 6679.32

politicians preachers prosecutors

Time: 6681.76

politicians yeah so you can think about

Time: 6683.4

these as as three mental modes that even

Time: 6685.679

if you've never worked in any of these

Time: 6686.96

careers you you will watch your thinking

Time: 6689.44

colored by at least one of them more

Time: 6691.36

often than you would like so in preacher

Time: 6693.36

mode you're basically proz your own

Time: 6695.56

views uh and you I mean Andrew you're

Time: 6698.76

a in some in some situations I think of

Time: 6701.239

you as a highly effective professional

Time: 6703.76

debunker of preachers of you know

Time: 6706.52

certain kinds of snake oil when it comes

Time: 6708.079

to health um and you know and biology um

Time: 6712.88

sometimes you take that too far and

Time: 6714.599

people might accuse you of being a

Time: 6715.88

prosecutor uh where you're attacking

Time: 6717.92

other people's views um and then um the

Time: 6721.36

third mode politician mode is is

Time: 6722.88

basically you don't even bother to

Time: 6724.32

listen to people unless they already

Time: 6725.44

agree with your views what I what I

Time: 6727.44

think is is interesting is these these

Time: 6728.76

modes of thinking are adaptive for in in

Time: 6731.4

certain roles um so preachers make great

Time: 6733.48

sales people they're often Visionary

Time: 6735.4

leaders uh prosecutors are often highly

Time: 6738.28

effective scientists right we Excel

Time: 6739.96

criticizing other people's work and

Time: 6741.599

finding what's wrong with it um

Time: 6743.639

politicians are great at currying favor

Time: 6745.8

um they do a lot of lobbying they win

Time: 6747.679

approval the problem is that all of

Time: 6750.52

these modes stop you from questioning

Time: 6752.28

your own assumptions and beliefs um so

Time: 6754.76

my I I'll tell you my biggest device is

Time: 6756.199

prosecutor mode uh I've been called a

Time: 6758.44

logic bully my wife had to explain to me

Time: 6760.679

that was not a

Time: 6763.48

compliment oh my

Time: 6765.36

goodness if I I mean I know I know

Time: 6767.8

you've experienced this too if I if I if

Time: 6770.159

I feel confident that there's strong

Time: 6771.44

evidence that somebody is wrong I

Time: 6773.079

believe it's my moral responsibility to

Time: 6774.56

correct them and that never goes well

Time: 6778.639

amazing um I won't reflect on my own

Time: 6781.599

experience I'll just say yes and yes uh

Time: 6785.28

right right the the um logic word ninja

Time: 6789.96

mode um is one that I think we're

Time: 6792.44

trained in as academics we are and that

Time: 6795.199

and you know if you're a lawyer or you

Time: 6797.679

know or uh many other professions as

Time: 6800.04

well um and I think it holds value and

Time: 6802.28

it can be very effective in certain

Time: 6803.719

domains but um less effective in other

Time: 6805.679

domains yes and I think part of the

Time: 6807.88

problem is you know when I actually

Time: 6810.239

whether you're preaching Prosecuting or

Time: 6811.679

politicking excuse me or politicking you

Time: 6814.199

look like you're not open uh because

Time: 6816.52

you've already in all cases you think

Time: 6818.239

you're right and other people are wrong

Time: 6820.28

and so that makes it really hard for

Time: 6821.92

other people to to reason with you to

Time: 6824.4

disagree thoughtfully with you so my

Time: 6826.8

favorite alternative and and this is at

Time: 6829.04

the heart of what you do for a living um

Time: 6831.159

and for fun is thinking like a

Time: 6833.92

scientist and when I say thinking like a

Time: 6835.92

scientist I do not mean that you need to

Time: 6837.44

buy a microscope or invest in a

Time: 6839.079

telescope what I mean is as as you model

Time: 6841.84

so effectively a good scientist has the

Time: 6843.639

humility to know what they don't know

Time: 6845.199

and the Curiosity to constantly seek out

Time: 6846.96

new knowledge there have been multiple

Time: 6849

experiments showing that when people are

Time: 6850.36

taught to think like scientists uh their

Time: 6852.159

judgment improves and so did their

Time: 6854.04

decisions and I think a lot of that

Time: 6856.239

stems from um when when you go into

Time: 6858.679

scientist mode you realize that all of

Time: 6860.599

your opinions are just hypotheses

Time: 6862.159

waiting to be tested all of your

Time: 6864.119

decisions are experiments and so you're

Time: 6866.76

like well I you know I'm not trying to

Time: 6868.719

prove that I'm right I'm trying to find

Time: 6869.96

out if I might be wrong and then if I

Time: 6871.76

find out I am wrong it's easier to Pivot

Time: 6874.079

and instead of being really invested in

Time: 6876.04

being right I can try to get it right um

Time: 6879.32

and I think in some ways that's the

Time: 6881.159

that's the meta message that I'm trying

Time: 6882.88

to communicate to people with my work is

Time: 6885.48

um assumptions are meant to be pressure

Time: 6886.92

tested they're meant to be questioned

Time: 6888.32

and challenged and if you're not open

Time: 6889.76

into rethinking your views um then you

Time: 6892.599

basically turn thinking into a religion

Time: 6895.4

uh and I don't know about you but I

Time: 6897.28

prefer to base my views on on good data

Time: 6900.599

um as opposed to Blind Faith um and I

Time: 6903.28

think that's been a huge part of your

Time: 6904.4

contribution in the last three or so

Time: 6906.239

years to public discourse is um you've

Time: 6909.079

you've helped people think more

Time: 6910.52

scientifically and talk more

Time: 6911.88

scientifically about their daily habits

Time: 6913.28

and behaviors and um I guess my my big

Time: 6916.079

question is how do we help people do

Time: 6917.44

that more often even in domains where

Time: 6919.199

they don't access to scientific

Time: 6920.92

knowledge and they don't read journals

Time: 6922.84

first of all thanks for the kind words

Time: 6924.28

of feedback I think you know my my goal

Time: 6926.239

is always to you know identify who's

Time: 6929.199

coming to the podcast for health tools

Time: 6930.84

and protocols and hopefully teach them

Time: 6932.719

some science and scientific thinking and

Time: 6934.44

for those that are coming to the podcast

Time: 6935.84

for Science and scientific thinking

Time: 6937.159

hopefully they get some health tools and

Time: 6938.599

protocols also but um because I fell in

Time: 6940.84

love with science for the exact reason

Time: 6942.239

that you're describing which is that I

Time: 6944.44

uh I lived I grew up in a family that

Time: 6946.239

was very divided politically along

Time: 6948.4

religious lines along essentially every

Time: 6950.28

line of like what foods to eat what was

Time: 6952.04

healthy what wasn't and the only way I

Time: 6954.44

could reconcile um these very frankly

Time: 6957.32

polarized views was to you know embark

Time: 6959.88

on the scientific method pose a

Time: 6961.36

hypothesis and then try and disprove

Time: 6963.44

one's hypothesis and some things get

Time: 6965.32

through the filter and it's a constant

Time: 6967.04

learning so um I should just ask when

Time: 6970.079

you teach people how to be a scientist

Time: 6973.32

in order to uh try and overcome some of

Time: 6975.4

their blind spots and be better thinkers

Time: 6978.119

better meaning it serves themselves and

Time: 6979.639

people around them better uh is that

Time: 6983.4

teaching them what a hypothesis is that

Time: 6985.639

a a hypothesis is not a question it's

Time: 6987.88

it's sort of a um you're you wager on an

Time: 6990.599

idea with the understanding that you

Time: 6992.32

very well could be wrong and then you

Time: 6993.52

try and disprove that idea is that is

Time: 6995.119

that sort of the Crux of of what uh in

Time: 6997.32

these experiments is um you're

Time: 6999.8

describing as teaching people how to be

Time: 7001.36

scientists like if they just do that

Time: 7004.199

then they'll they're going to benefit I

Time: 7006.119

think that's that's at the very heart of

Time: 7007.52

the lens is I want to just double click

Time: 7009.88

on the idea of disproving your

Time: 7011.719

hypothesis right most people live in a

Time: 7013.92

Land of confirmation bias where they're

Time: 7015.44

they're basically just looking for

Time: 7016.8

support for their pre-existing beliefs

Time: 7018.48

that's right they're click foraging we

Time: 7020.04

all do this by the way I'm not

Time: 7021.48

criticizing here we all will have an

Time: 7023.44

idea and then we will click forage

Time: 7025.84

online to support the idea

Time: 7028.52

that we disagree with them they disagree

Time: 7031.719

with us ah here's somebody I agree with

Time: 7034.36

and that agrees with me I think and do

Time: 7036.56

you think this has roots in our um you

Time: 7038.719

know in the neural Circuit underpinnings

Time: 7040.8

of of um just wanting to have

Time: 7044.84

affiliation that affiliation feels good

Time: 7047.679

yeah having people that are like us

Time: 7050.119

knowing that we're kind of protected in

Time: 7051.88

that yeah I think that's a big part of

Time: 7053.8

it I think one of the reasons that we we

Time: 7056

encase ourselves in Echo Chambers and um

Time: 7058.52

hide in filter bubbles is uh there's

Time: 7061.159

there's a strong evolutionary pressure

Time: 7062.679

to avoid social exclusion and so you

Time: 7065.36

know it's not it's not just the you know

Time: 7066.96

being drawn to affiliation it's also um

Time: 7069.88

I I really want I'm afraid of being

Time: 7072.52

excommunicated from my group and if I

Time: 7074.52

challenge the Orthodoxy of the community

Time: 7076.52

that I belong to I might be an outcast

Time: 7079.04

um and I don't think I don't think every

Time: 7080.56

day people think through that logic but

Time: 7082.44

I think there's a there's a deep-seated

Time: 7084.96

um visceral tendency to avoid that and

Time: 7088.32

you know I think the when we think about

Time: 7091.52

teaching people to see their blind spots

Time: 7093.159

more clearly um a lot of that is is

Time: 7095.04

recognizing it's hard to do that on your

Time: 7096.76

own um because by definition you're

Time: 7099.36

blind spots are invisible to you and so

Time: 7101.04

this is why other people's input is so

Time: 7102.84

important and I think you know I'm I

Time: 7105.76

know this makes a lot of people

Time: 7106.76

uncomfortable but I think everybody on

Time: 7109.36

social media should follow people that

Time: 7110.8

they disagree with but not just for the

Time: 7113.719

sake of it you want people who reach

Time: 7115.84

different conclusions from you but where

Time: 7117.84

you respect the Integrity of their

Time: 7119.159

thought process those are the people who

Time: 7121.119

really stretch your thinking and I think

Time: 7122.92

that's what we were train to do um it's

Time: 7124.4

what I was trained to do as a social

Time: 7125.48

science a social scientist is to listen

Time: 7127.92

to the ideas that made me think hard not

Time: 7129.719

just the ones that made me feel good and

Time: 7131.4

to surround myself with people who

Time: 7133.079

challenged my thought process not just

Time: 7134.44

the ones who validated my conclusions

Time: 7136.599

and I think you know a lot of people

Time: 7137.679

hear that message and they're like no

Time: 7139.159

but I don't want to let that like that

Time: 7140.84

awful perspective into my world I'm like

Time: 7142.719

no you want to be more nuanced in saying

Time: 7145.76

who are the people where before I knew

Time: 7148.76

what their answer was I would be

Time: 7150.679

impressed with the depth and the

Time: 7152.92

thoroughness of their reflection and

Time: 7155.32

their analysis I should be following

Time: 7157.48

those people and learning from them

Time: 7159.32

regardless of the the hypotheses that

Time: 7163.159

they generate and the results that they

Time: 7166.32

share I'm so glad that you mentioned the

Time: 7169.32

um importance of following people that

Time: 7170.8

you disagree with I think one thing that

Time: 7172.4

we have to highlight and I'm hoping will

Time: 7175.48

maybe even emerge from this conversation

Time: 7177.119

is that follows are not endorsements and

Time: 7180.4

and this is actually a real problem I

Time: 7181.599

mean there are academics who have lost

Time: 7182.96

their jobs not necessarily for following

Time: 7185.239

certain accounts but for um commenting

Time: 7187.88

on certain common threads maybe even a

Time: 7190.32

like is a is a slightly different

Time: 7191.679

category because it's as the name

Time: 7193.28

suggests it's a like it's a it sounds

Time: 7195.36

like and it's thought of as a vote of

Time: 7197.199

approval of what's there yeah but when

Time: 7199.239

one's options are just um you know a

Time: 7201.679

heart uh a follow or no heart no follow

Time: 7205.599

um you know I was a big fan of the

Time: 7207.04

thumbs up thumbs down I kind of like the

Time: 7209.079

thumbs up thumbs down because at least

Time: 7211.04

you have that you have an option to to

Time: 7213.56

um to descent um without getting into

Time: 7216.56

online uh comment battles and things of

Time: 7218.44

that sort but um listen i' I've had um

Time: 7221.599

uh people ask me why do you follow so

Time: 7223.84

and so because follows are also seen as

Time: 7225.8

a sign of support because you're adding

Time: 7227.56

adding followers and presumably uh in

Time: 7229.88

the algorithm raising prominence to a

Time: 7231.56

channel but I'm right there with you I

Time: 7233.239

follow lots of accounts um of people who

Time: 7235.4

I fundamentally disagree with but I'm

Time: 7237.639

trying to learn and I'm also trying to

Time: 7239.679

understand what what their capture

Time: 7241.119

points are like like why people find

Time: 7242.8

them so intriguing yes um anyway I'm I'm

Time: 7245.679

a learner I'm a forager like you so I

Time: 7248.36

I'm in the same boat and every once in a

Time: 7249.96

while I think like it it's stunning to

Time: 7253.48

me I don't know if you've ever looked at

Time: 7254.639

your like your Instagram statistics um

Time: 7258.239

but some somebody um a colleague of mine

Time: 7260.44

actually showed me I was like I didn't I

Time: 7262.159

didn't realize you could look at the

Time: 7263.88

effect of each post on follows and

Time: 7265.92

unfollows oh I didn't realize that and

Time: 7268.88

you know the I think my typical ratio

Time: 7271.119

might be two or three to one for a post

Time: 7272.92

so you know I'm gaining two or three to

Time: 7274.76

two or three followers to every one that

Time: 7276.079

I lose the idea that I could post

Time: 7278.719

anything that would cause someone to

Time: 7280.239

unfollow me like if I said something

Time: 7282.159

interesting enough that you thought I

Time: 7283.52

was worth following how could how could

Time: 7286.079

one post change your mind about that I

Time: 7288.159

think you're too focused on what I think

Time: 7290.84

and maybe not paying attention to how I

Time: 7293

think um was my my first reaction to

Time: 7295.639

that and then my second my second

Time: 7297.159

thought was well maybe maybe What's

Time: 7301.44

Happening Here is like people show up

Time: 7304.56

and they don't realize the foundation of

Time: 7306.4

evidence behind the total body of work

Time: 7309.8

and so one post you know strikes them

Time: 7311.88

wrong and they think this person is not

Time: 7313.599

credible or they think that this person

Time: 7316.199

has um you know lost sight of you know

Time: 7319.56

of what rigorous science is I wonder if

Time: 7322.48

you you've had that experience too of

Time: 7325.159

like I I think I I make the mistake of

Time: 7326.8

taking for granted that anybody who

Time: 7329.199

followed me knows that if I post

Time: 7331.599

something I think it's worth thinking

Time: 7333.239

about and um you know it's it's been

Time: 7335.52

carefully studied and I didn't have a

Time: 7337.599

you know I didn't have a dog in the

Time: 7338.639

fight I read this research and said this

Time: 7340.84

cleared the bar not only of an academic

Time: 7342.52

Journal um but I read the methods and I

Time: 7344.92

found them sound enough that we ought to

Time: 7346.52

be discussing this idea um have you had

Time: 7348.76

that experience too um I certainly have

Time: 7351.679

and I should say that you know I was

Time: 7353.04

weaned in an academic culture three

Time: 7355.36

separate mentors very different styles

Time: 7357.88

all of whom um were excellent mentors

Time: 7361.96

but all of whom taught me that you know

Time: 7365.92

there are phenomenal papers where the

Time: 7368.32

every bit of information in the paper

Time: 7370.36

and indeed how it's written from start

Time: 7371.88

to finish is just watertight and

Time: 7374.28

incredible and there are other papers

Time: 7377.079

that are less watertight but

Time: 7379.04

occasionally there will be papers where

Time: 7381.639

one data point in a figure is intriguing

Time: 7385.679

enough to consider following that scent

Time: 7387.36

Trail in your own work even if the rest

Time: 7389.88

of the paper is kind of

Time: 7391.599

eh I mean one data point now that

Time: 7394.96

doesn't mean taking one data point and

Time: 7396.32

casting it out to millions of people on

Time: 7398.56

social media as an actionable item is is

Time: 7400.88

is valid that's certainly not what I'm

Time: 7402.28

saying but what I do realize and and I'm

Time: 7404.8

realizing again now what you just said

Time: 7407.52

is that indeed people don't know the

Time: 7410.079

context under which like what like what

Time: 7411.8

filters are we working with before we

Time: 7413.52

bring things forward and I think that um

Time: 7416.119

you know my belief is that if it's

Time: 7418.44

grounded firmly in the scientific method

Time: 7420.92

that um that's the best starting place

Time: 7423

we were talking about that earlier and I

Time: 7425.079

also understand that scientists differ

Time: 7426.679

tremendously in how they look at even

Time: 7428.599

the same data in the same paper so there

Time: 7430.8

is no governing body that says okay this

Time: 7433.8

paper means blank the authors have their

Time: 7436.36

interpretation the students have their

Time: 7438.48

interpretation in fact the course I used

Time: 7439.88

to teach um to undergraduates which grew

Time: 7441.639

into a very large course we would learn

Time: 7443.079

to ask four questions what's the

Time: 7445

question that the authors were asking

Time: 7447.28

sometimes a sub question what methods

Time: 7448.719

did they use what did they find and then

Time: 7451.559

what did they conclude and does it

Time: 7452.96

relate back to the original question and

Time: 7454.719

that simple um breaking out of four

Time: 7457.28

questions of study is essentially what I

Time: 7458.639

do for all studies um but I have my way

Time: 7461.36

of doing it and it's going to differ

Time: 7462.719

from the way that other people do it um

Time: 7464.96

social media uh I think what's

Time: 7467.4

interesting is that I think there's

Time: 7468.48

always going to be a core following of a

Time: 7470.679

of a given person like your your

Time: 7471.96

followers that they're going to trust

Time: 7474.44

you know not necessarily across the

Time: 7475.559

board but there there's a general

Time: 7476.76

acceptance of ideas coming through I

Time: 7478.239

think that on social media it's hard to

Time: 7480.639

strike a balance between setting the

Time: 7482.199

whole context and the action will

Time: 7485.119

takeways I get criticized a lot for not

Time: 7486.679

being concise enough and I agree but I

Time: 7488.52

but also get criticized for putting

Time: 7490.36

things taking things out of context so

Time: 7492.84

uh such a tight rope walk it's a tight

Time: 7494.28

RPP walk and it's always going to be a

Time: 7495.639

tight RPP walk and so I'm going to just

Time: 7497.28

you know keep going and I know you will

Time: 7499.159

too um and and listen I I'm there's

Time: 7502.599

there's some kids out there it's surely

Time: 7505.239

not going to be that are going to take

Time: 7506.76

our jobs eventually and um and we'll

Time: 7509.559

find a way to do it much better who

Time: 7510.719

knows through AI or something might be

Time: 7513

robots um I feel like this is an

Time: 7515.719

appropriate place to ask about something

Time: 7517.04

else since we're talking about sort of

Time: 7518.32

percept of of of others and and gleaning

Time: 7521.4

information overcoming blind spots it's

Time: 7522.92

something that you've written about some

Time: 7524.559

years ago now I guess it would be almost

Time: 7526.44

8 years ago now um about

Time: 7529.079

authenticity um you know the word

Time: 7531.599

authenticity is is such a mindfield such

Time: 7534.239

a mindfield I was going to say such has

Time: 7536.119

such a gravit positive gravitational

Time: 7537.88

pull like oh they're really authentic as

Time: 7539.8

opposed to what's the opposite of

Time: 7541.239

authentic fake right but um I think we

Time: 7545.639

could all learn to draw some lines

Time: 7547.44

between authenticity and oversharing

Time: 7550.239

right how do we gauge authenticity and

Time: 7553.4

we can refer people to that article you

Time: 7554.84

wrote some years ago I think um you may

Time: 7557.119

have written it differently where to be

Time: 7559.199

written today but you talked in that

Time: 7560.76

article about somebody who essentially

Time: 7562.88

decided to tell everyone that he worked

Time: 7565.04

with all the things that he was

Time: 7566.679

interested in um uh doing with them

Time: 7569.8

relating to them and it did not serve

Time: 7571.36

him well okay so that's authen right and

Time: 7574.4

so then there's this um this notion of

Time: 7577

benevolent deception in order to

Time: 7578.96

preserve relationship and in importantly

Time: 7581.76

um it brought about a word that we don't

Time: 7583.8

hear about very often but that I I

Time: 7585.679

rather like which is edicate like

Time: 7587.719

there's so for social media by the way I

Time: 7589.4

apply classroom rules I'll tolerate any

Time: 7591.92

comment in the comment section but not

Time: 7593.599

the sort of comment that I wouldn't

Time: 7594.719

tolerate in a classroom if you start

Time: 7596.119

insulting other you can insult me but if

Time: 7598.52

you want to insult other people I'm not

Time: 7601.199

going to tolerate that so um that's

Time: 7604.119

where I draw the line classroom rules

Time: 7605.76

there's an etiquette and I think that um

Time: 7608.719

etiquette is important so how do we

Time: 7610.96

balance

Time: 7612.559

authenticity

Time: 7614.079

with etiquette and also with preserving

Time: 7616.96

one's uh uh one's public life or private

Time: 7620.679

or private life right authenticity at

Time: 7622.96

home seems important you could be your

Time: 7625.079

complete self at home except when you

Time: 7628

want to you know physically hit your

Time: 7630.679

sister or brother because they ate your

Time: 7633.32

ice cream that's not the right kind of

Time: 7635.44

authenticity no no it isn't I think well

Time: 7639.639

there I think it's such a rich and

Time: 7641.559

complicated topic I think F first thing

Time: 7644.119

is like I I don't want people to be

Time: 7647.199

disingenuous ever but I have a real

Time: 7650.239

problem with people saying as an excuse

Time: 7652.52

for disrespectful Behavior well I was

Time: 7655.119

just being myself um I think David

Time: 7658.32

sedera said yes but yourself is an

Time: 7661.559

so good so good and I think I

Time: 7664.88

think what people forget is that we have

Time: 7666.36

we all have multiple selves right you

Time: 7667.96

you I mean you've you've you've known

Time: 7669.679

this your whole career um we all have

Time: 7671.96

multiple identities we also could think

Time: 7674.32

about yourself as your thoughts your

Time: 7677.52

emotions um your values your personality

Time: 7681.159

so which facet of yourself are you

Time: 7682.92

trying to be true to um I would argue

Time: 7686

that authenticity without boundaries is

Time: 7689.639

careless authenticity without empathy is

Time: 7692.92

selfish and part of being authentic is

Time: 7696.599

caring about other people's values that

Time: 7698.159

should one of your values so what that

Time: 7700.44

means concretely is I don't think we

Time: 7701.92

should worry about being authentic to

Time: 7703.4

what we're thinking and feeling in any

Time: 7704.599

given moment I think what we want to ask

Time: 7707.119

is what I'm about to do or say

Time: 7709.239

consistent with my principles and

Time: 7711.96

sometimes that means you will be false

Time: 7713.44

to your personality in order to be true

Time: 7715.04

to your values sometimes that means you

Time: 7717.639

will you will feel like you're not

Time: 7719.84

honoring your thought or your emotion in

Time: 7721.679

the moment um but you're doing that with

Time: 7723.92

a broader view toward who is the person

Time: 7725.599

that I want to be there was a cultural

Time: 7727.679

critic Lon trilling who wrote about the

Time: 7730.36

idea of sincerity as opposed to

Time: 7732.28

authenticity and I really like this

Time: 7734.199

distinction he said when when you when

Time: 7735.88

you try to think about being authentic

Time: 7737.4

you're trying to bring the inside out

Time: 7739.599

and to point Andrew that's not always

Time: 7741.119

appropriate or effective he said

Time: 7743.4

sincerity is a little bit more about

Time: 7745.04

bringing the outside in so pay attention

Time: 7747.84

to the person you claim to be and then

Time: 7750

try to become that

Time: 7751.52

person and that was a little bit of an

Time: 7753.44

aha moment for me I realized you know

Time: 7755.52

there there are all these people who say

Time: 7757.96

well you should you know you should you

Time: 7760.159

should walk your

Time: 7761.76

talk and I think that's good advice I

Time: 7764.28

might even go a step further and say you

Time: 7767.04

know maybe you should only talk it if

Time: 7768.48

you're already walking

Time: 7770.32

it maybe maybe that would help us avoid

Time: 7772.88

hypocrisy but I think the the the

Time: 7774.96

fundamental message here is that uh we

Time: 7777.719

we all we we all could be authentic to

Time: 7779.719

one part of ourselves and inauthentic to

Time: 7782.599

another part and I think the most

Time: 7783.88

important part is to ask what do I stand

Time: 7786.28

for and if I'm what I'm about to

Time: 7788.559

communicate is not consistent with that

Time: 7790.76

then maybe maybe I could

Time: 7794.32

self-censor such great advice and um I

Time: 7797.679

suppose uh one has to wonder about the

Time: 7800.84

the role of a emotional states you know

Time: 7803.199

I think there are

Time: 7805.199

career-ending mistakes that people make

Time: 7807.96

in a moment um especially online

Time: 7809.96

nowadays and by the way this is not just

Time: 7812.52

for people who are already established

Time: 7814.239

in their career I've heard stories and

Time: 7816.48

there seem to be more and more of these

Time: 7817.639

in the news of

Time: 7818.84

of for instance you know videos of

Time: 7821.079

things that people said some years

Time: 7822.52

earlier getting them ejected from

Time: 7824.52

college um a guest on Lex Friedman's

Time: 7827.559

podcast who works in the Securities

Time: 7829.32

World said that one of the lessons that

Time: 7830.76

he teaches his kids is to not film

Time: 7832.84

themselves doing bad things but in and

Time: 7835

of course also not to do bad things but

Time: 7837.32

in general to just not film themselves

Time: 7839.04

doing anything because of his

Time: 7841.92

understanding of the risk of of doing

Time: 7843.36

that and we don't want to create a

Time: 7844.559

paranoia but um gosh I mean who you are

Time: 7848.04

when when you're 14 is a very different

Time: 7850.079

person than who you are when you're 27

Time: 7852.48

and when you're 50 so I hope so you know

Time: 7856.559

and um

Time: 7858.559

so yeah I think you know balancing

Time: 7861.119

authenticity across the lifespan and

Time: 7862.92

we're expecting young minds to do this

Time: 7864.599

and clearly older Minds can't do it

Time: 7866.48

either I mean I I this is a pretty

Time: 7868.119

well-known case of a chair of a major

Time: 7870.119

Psy the major Psychiatry Department um

Time: 7873.52

we won't name the university but um

Time: 7875.8

basically lost his job for a single

Time: 7877.84

tweet he just was not being thoughtful

Time: 7880.159

in fact he was being um really um like

Time: 7884.48

numb to to other people and lost his job

Time: 7888.559

and and I think he Pro I don't know him

Time: 7891.36

um and it was obvious why he lost it I

Time: 7893.48

don't think it was debatable but um gosh

Time: 7895.96

you think about somebody who's a chair

Time: 7897.44

of Psychiatry which means they're a

Time: 7898.96

psychiatrist which means they're trained

Time: 7900.599

to think about

Time: 7902.36

thinking and there you go it's amazing

Time: 7905.559

how common this is and I think one of

Time: 7907.48

the things that's

Time: 7909.239

fascinating to me is I guess this goes

Time: 7912.36

back to something we were talking about

Time: 7913.4

a moment ago

Time: 7914.679

but I I think that when when we

Time: 7917.52

communicate we have access to the sum

Time: 7920.36

total of all of our thoughts and

Time: 7922.559

everything we've ever ever said that we

Time: 7924.199

can remember and we forget that other

Time: 7926.28

people only have a snapshot and so one

Time: 7928.48

of the questions I I like to ask is if

Time: 7931.32

this was the only post that somebody saw

Time: 7932.88

of mine would I be proud of it would I

Time: 7935.76

communicate who I am and who I aspire to

Time: 7937.88

be oh that's so good if the answer is no

Time: 7940.32

maybe I should pause before I put that

Time: 7942.4

out there that that is excellent advice

Time: 7945.52

if it were the only post like you're one

Time: 7947.96

and only representing you oh fantastic

Time: 7951

that now that could be paralyzing if

Time: 7953

you're a perfectionist you'll never post

Time: 7955.36

but I think for somebody who's posting

Time: 7956.84

regularly um it's a good filter to just

Time: 7959.159

ask um am I you know am I being

Time: 7961.76

thoughtful

Time: 7962.76

enough so good I won't add anything to

Time: 7965.76

that just say I'll just say so so good

Time: 7969.159

let's talk about

Time: 7970.32

potential I was in junior high school

Time: 7972.719

and I remember having a social studies

Time: 7974.239

teacher who she just would go on and on

Time: 7976.559

about potential she had a special

Time: 7977.96

program after school you could get

Time: 7979.599

involved potential potential potential

Time: 7981.92

um and we hear about this and you know

Time: 7985.159

we have untapped potential you hear

Time: 7987.119

we're only operating at 40% of our

Time: 7989.239

abilities you know people will say that

Time: 7991.48

um the implication is that we have

Time: 7993.239

reservoirs of potential that we're just

Time: 7995.36

not accessing because we're not doing

Time: 7997.559

the right thing thinking the right

Time: 7998.8

things um I know you've now researched

Time: 8001.4

this topic extensively you have a new

Time: 8003.639

book on this topic um tell us about

Time: 8007

potential like do we all have huge

Time: 8009.4

reservoirs of potential that we are not

Time: 8011.239

accessing and of course I and everyone

Time: 8013.239

else wants to know how can we access

Time: 8014.639

those but maybe you could also tell us

Time: 8016.239

some of the myths around potential and

Time: 8018.96

yeah tell us about tell us about

Time: 8020.84

potential such a such a uh sticky topic

Time: 8023.679

for all the right reasons thank you I uh

Time: 8027.239

you know it's one of those things things

Time: 8028.239

where you you've had this experience I'm

Time: 8029.719

sure many times where you start thinking

Time: 8033.239

and talking about a topic and you

Time: 8034.8

realize it's it's been your whole life

Time: 8037.48

but you didn't see it until then uh and

Time: 8039.84

I feel that way about potential I think

Time: 8041.44

that I've been passionate about helping

Time: 8043.52

people achieve their potential as long

Time: 8044.92

as I can remember I think every every

Time: 8046.92

goal I've ever set has been about

Time: 8048.76

stretching my potential in one way or

Time: 8050.52

another um or at least realizing it and

Time: 8053.32

what I've become so struck by as I've

Time: 8054.719

studied this topic is we all have hidden

Time: 8057

potential but we don't know how to

Time: 8059.04

unlock it so why do we often

Time: 8061.719

underestimate our own potential um we

Time: 8064.36

judge ourselves by by our starting

Time: 8066.079

abilities um and this is more common for

Time: 8068.4

people with fixed mindsets but even

Time: 8069.84

people with growth mindsets um you try a

Time: 8072.119

new skill it doesn't go well and you

Time: 8074.159

think this is not for me I'm not cut out

Time: 8076.199

for this um and then it gets worse when

Time: 8079.92

other people also you know you're not

Time: 8081.92

just underestimating yourself you're

Time: 8083.32

also being under underestimated by

Time: 8084.92

others other people watch you and say

Time: 8086.84

yeah you don't have the you know you're

Time: 8088.32

not a prodigy you're not a natural you

Time: 8090.92

don't have the talent that it takes and

Time: 8093.28

I think the big myth there is that raw

Time: 8095.32

talent is the most important driver of

Time: 8097.639

How High people climb um it's not

Time: 8099.719

motivation and opportunity uh matter

Time: 8102

more than raw ability for growth

Time: 8104.92

motivation and opportunity yeah um you

Time: 8108.239

know obviously you know everybody starts

Time: 8109.88

at a different point um but how close

Time: 8112.92

you come to your potential is much more

Time: 8115.159

about the character skills you cultivate

Time: 8117.639

um to to improve and improving over time

Time: 8120.96

and then whether you're in a situation

Time: 8122.719

where you know you you have access to

Time: 8124.679

the knowledge that you need and the

Time: 8126.159

tools you need to keep growing and so

Time: 8128.199

you know a concrete example of this for

Time: 8129.92

me is um when I when I started diving I

Time: 8132.28

was way too late I picked it up as a

Time: 8134.88

teenager uh a lot of the elite divers in

Time: 8138

the world start by five

Time: 8140.48

goodness and actually in China they're

Time: 8143

they're handpicked by for body type and

Time: 8145.239

sent to a version of diving boarding

Time: 8147.239

school where they don't even teach kids

Time: 8148.4

how to swim uh they tie a rope around

Time: 8150.239

them so that they can just pull them

Time: 8151.679

back after after they they hit the water

Time: 8153.48

in the deep end what part of their body

Time: 8154.76

they tie a rope around uh I think it's

Time: 8156.84

their waste so they're diving with a

Time: 8160.04

rope so that when they get in the water

Time: 8162.32

they're not wasting any energy exactly

Time: 8164.4

they're just being dragged through the

Time: 8165.76

water and out that's uh that's my

Time: 8168.32

understanding of it um wow but PR okay

Time: 8171.159

they have to walk they have to climb

Time: 8172.599

yeah okay so there a bunch of other

Time: 8173.8

things they have to do yeah but the the

Time: 8175.48

the swimming apparently is very

Time: 8176.96

secondary anyway um so I started really

Time: 8179.48

late and I

Time: 8181.44

lacked most of the things that you would

Time: 8183.639

want as a diver um I I couldn't touch my

Time: 8187.119

toes without bending my knees uh my

Time: 8189.44

teammates called me Frankenstein because

Time: 8191

I was so stiff when I walked uh so

Time: 8193.04

lacking the flexibility I have no rhythm

Time: 8195.08

my coach brought a metronome to practice

Time: 8196.639

one day and I couldn't even keep the

Time: 8198.28

bead uh so you know you think about

Time: 8200.84

diving as a sport of Grace nope and then

Time: 8203.719

I also couldn't jump and I couldn't

Time: 8206.599

twist either and it's like you're

Time: 8208.28

missing the explosive power you don't

Time: 8209.679

have the the athleticism um and I think

Time: 8214.2

if I had if I had just looked at those

Time: 8216.16

abilities I had no business being a

Time: 8217.84

diver and in fact no business being an

Time: 8219.319

athlete I'd already been cut from the

Time: 8220.479

Middle School basketball team three

Time: 8221.719

times I didn't make the high school

Time: 8223.04

soccer team those were the two sports I

Time: 8224.519

had poured a decade into like this is

Time: 8227.12

going nowhere um

Time: 8229.519

Eric just the most incredible coach I

Time: 8232.28

could ever imagine he said to me on the

Time: 8234.12

first day of practice uh he said um

Time: 8238.599

you know yes you're missing all these

Time: 8241.28

things but I believe if you if you pour

Time: 8245.399

yourself into this sport that you could

Time: 8247.28

be a state finalist by the time you

Time: 8248.519

finish high school and he saw more

Time: 8251.08

potential in me than I saw in myself and

Time: 8253.08

that just lit a fire under

Time: 8254.679

me and um you know what that translated

Time: 8257.8

into is a lot of the behaviors that that

Time: 8260.04

you and I have both studied um you know

Time: 8261.88

setting specific difficult goals for I

Time: 8264.28

want to learn these Dives that seem

Time: 8265.519

ought to reach um for uh you know I want

Time: 8268.439

to increase my score over the next three

Time: 8270.08

meets by 10 points um for I want to

Time: 8273.12

learn how to you know all my limitations

Time: 8275.639

notwithstanding one thing that I can

Time: 8276.8

master that I have total control over is

Time: 8278.319

how clean I go into the water um I can

Time: 8280.2

get a rip entry so that there's no

Time: 8281.519

splash and that's the most important

Time: 8282.84

part of a dive and one of the greatest

Time: 8285.08

compliments I ever got as a diver was I

Time: 8286.76

came out of a meet in um it was couple

Time: 8289.359

years and I think I was maybe a junior

Time: 8290.719

in high school and uh one of the judges

Time: 8293.04

turned to Eric and said all he can do is

Time: 8295.399

rip and Eric said so

Time: 8298.84

like yes it's awesome it's almost like

Time: 8300.399

saying all he can do is win you know it

Time: 8303.319

yeah it it was a great backhanded

Time: 8304.679

compliment but Eric was like listen he

Time: 8306.519

made the dive it has a degree of

Time: 8308.28

difficulty maybe he didn't jump as high

Time: 8309.439

as he wanted maybe his tight his tuck

Time: 8311.24

wasn't as tight as he wanted um but at

Time: 8313.12

the end of the day like that dive

Time: 8314.88

disappeared straight up and down into

Time: 8316.12

the water you can't not give that a

Time: 8317.8

seven um and that ended up serving me

Time: 8319.84

really well and so I think the the

Time: 8321.84

broader lesson here for me was Eric said

Time: 8324.559

to me um actually last year uh I never

Time: 8327.84

thought about this he said uh I never

Time: 8331.08

got close to even qualifying for Olympic

Time: 8333.08

trials like I did not have the talent to

Time: 8335.479

to be that good but I got way better

Time: 8337.08

than I ever expected and uh Eric said to

Time: 8339.439

me he said looking back uh he said you

Time: 8341.719

got further with less Talent than every

Time: 8343.88

any diver I've ever coached and that was

Time: 8346.12

so meaningful to me and what it reminded

Time: 8347.559

me was um my priest accomplishments were

Time: 8349.92

not in the areas where I started out

Time: 8352

with the most Talent they were in the

Time: 8353.559

areas where I had overcome the most

Time: 8355.479

obstacles and I think that to me is um

Time: 8358.76

really what drives people around

Time: 8360.24

potential is to say um it's not

Time: 8363.08

performance that's motivating it's a

Time: 8364.92

sense of

Time: 8366.359

progress I love that story and I and I

Time: 8369.519

couldn't agree more I mean I think um

Time: 8371.76

Lord knows my favorite Topic in scien is

Time: 8374.28

the course I performed at least after my

Time: 8376.439

freshman year which was abysmal um least

Time: 8379.559

well in the phase when I was doing well

Time: 8381.76

what class was it it's neural

Time: 8383

development I now teach neural

Time: 8384.679

development neural development how bad

Time: 8387.04

were you it at first uh okay well I have

Time: 8389.84

to put it in context my high school and

Time: 8392.319

freshman year of college were were

Time: 8393.92

abysmal right I basically no place being

Time: 8396.64

there I can only thank my high school

Time: 8398

girlfriend for um being so wonderful

Time: 8400.52

that I followed her off to college and

Time: 8402.2

ended up there um left after my freshman

Time: 8404.72

year came back and then at that point it

Time: 8406.24

was like a step function I worked out of

Time: 8408.2

fear and excitement and love of the

Time: 8410.52

material um I I was a straight A student

Time: 8413.8

thereafter but in my senior year senior

Time: 8415.56

year excuse me I took a course in neural

Time: 8417.399

development which was extremely

Time: 8419.2

challenging um and I got a B+ and that

Time: 8421.88

B+ still gets me you know but it's a

Time: 8424.88

topic that I love the most it's what I

Time: 8426.16

did my um graduate thesis on it's what I

Time: 8428.08

teached um at Stanford among other

Time: 8429.88

topics and um and I like to think now I

Time: 8432.12

have I guess humility had considerable

Time: 8433.96

Mastery over over the the material but

Time: 8436.319

it's because I didn't do as well as I

Time: 8438.04

would have liked and I applied myself so

Time: 8439.68

much and I think that it just didn't

Time: 8441.04

come naturally to me and then eventually

Time: 8443.04

over time you you kind of get it or you

Time: 8444.92

get um you get it um so it's it but it's

Time: 8449.28

still my favorite topic because it was

Time: 8451

that friction point right it's the

Time: 8452.68

ratcheting through and there's something

Time: 8455.479

I don't know that's just so

Time: 8456.399

intrinsically satisfying to me I used to

Time: 8458.24

watch my Bulldog Mastiff Costello like

Time: 8460.28

chewing on a bone or when he was little

Time: 8462.04

on a brick CU you know he had a kind of

Time: 8464.04

a Homer Simpson brain about his object

Time: 8465.96

choice to chew on and he but and he just

Time: 8467.92

looked like he was in just total Bliss

Time: 8469.6

it was like this effort um combined with

Time: 8472.439

some intrinsic pleasure of the process

Time: 8475.12

and so I think that when one is

Time: 8476.52

ratcheting through through something

Time: 8477.8

that's hard it feels so good that it's

Time: 8480.56

almost better than the outcome like it

Time: 8482.96

it it is better than the outcome I I

Time: 8484.88

think it is and you know it's it's

Time: 8487.12

fascinating because this is why I'm

Time: 8489.56

always bothered by people saying plar

Time: 8491.56

strengths because if you do that you

Time: 8493.439

will gravitate to toward the things that

Time: 8495.12

come naturally to you and you're going

Time: 8496.76

to miss out on the very often the the

Time: 8498.96

skill that was hard for you to learn to

Time: 8500.6

your point is one that you end up with

Time: 8502.6

greater Mastery over because you had to

Time: 8504.6

put in the extra effort and you end up

Time: 8506.28

deriving more more satisfaction out of

Time: 8508.8

the fact that you know I this was really

Time: 8511.04

tough and I figured it out um you know

Time: 8514

implicit in your story um and maybe

Time: 8516.24

partially explicit in in some parts um

Time: 8519.16

when I was when I was looking at the

Time: 8520.16

character skills that help people

Time: 8521.64

realize their potential um and really

Time: 8523.6

fuel unexpected growth um I I ended up

Time: 8526.56

finding three

Time: 8527.96

that I think are under discussed and um

Time: 8531.84

and well supported by science um I think

Time: 8534.72

that that basically if you want to reach

Time: 8536.359

your potential or um you know achieve

Time: 8538.24

more than you think you're capable of

Time: 8539.76

we're looking at becoming a creature of

Time: 8541.439

discomfort um and embracing things that

Time: 8543.6

are unpleasant or awkward for you uh

Time: 8546.16

that would be the first thing the second

Time: 8547.399

is um is being a sponge and soaking up

Time: 8550.72

new information and also filing

Time: 8552.8

filtering out what might not be useful

Time: 8555.04

and then the third is um is being an

Time: 8557

imperfectionist which is knowing when to

Time: 8559.52

aim for excellence and when to settle

Time: 8561.319

for good and I I hear all of those

Time: 8564.16

themes in your story um I you know that

Time: 8566.399

was OB obvious viously uncomfortable

Time: 8568.24

like you got a B+ you don't want to do

Time: 8569.76

any more neural

Time: 8571.28

development not at all it was it was so

Time: 8573.96

frustrating and so exciting to me at the

Time: 8575.72

same time and then I went everything I

Time: 8578.2

did in the five or seven years that

Time: 8579.6

followed was all about learning more

Time: 8581.16

about this topic because I and it wasn't

Time: 8582.8

about performing well or proving myself

Time: 8584.92

I just I I love the material so much

Time: 8587.12

more because of how challenging it was

Time: 8589.56

and I'm grateful to you Ben Reese

Time: 8591.92

professor at UC Santa Barbara incredible

Time: 8593.56

neuron anatomist and teacher of neural

Time: 8595.2

development and and laboratory science

Time: 8597.12

ien because um you know I think had I

Time: 8600.479

gotten an an a I don't know that I would

Time: 8603.08

have fallen in love with it in the same

Time: 8604.68

way isn't that weird you wouldn't have

Time: 8606.359

had to work at it to discover what was

Time: 8608.76

fun about it I imagine no absolutely and

Time: 8611.96

it's still one of my favorite topics to

Time: 8613.399

teach um and learn about so you

Time: 8616.96

mentioned discomfort being a sponge SL

Time: 8619.68

filter if I got that right and an

Time: 8623

imperfectionist um yeah tell me more

Time: 8625.399

about the imperfectionist piece because

Time: 8627.319

I feel like um I've had students in my

Time: 8629.96

lab and I've known people in other

Time: 8631.2

domains of life that they're they're

Time: 8633.12

absolutely paranoid about shipping

Time: 8634.64

something out for the world to see it

Time: 8636.479

and of course like no one wants to put

Time: 8638.12

stuff out into the world that isn't

Time: 8639.6

right and God forbid could be wrong but

Time: 8642.76

um or that's going to embarrass us so

Time: 8645.68

you can understand why people are

Time: 8646.88

perfectionists but I never really

Time: 8649

understood that the uh the extreme

Time: 8651.76

perfectionist like how do they ever do

Time: 8653.8

anything and and are they happy people

Time: 8656.479

cuz I imagine that they are no I mean

Time: 8659.399

this is so Thomas Curran I think is the

Time: 8661.2

world's leadest leading psychologist

Time: 8662.72

studying perfectionism and if you look

Time: 8664.279

at his meta analyses uh perfectionism is

Time: 8666.84

a recipe for Burnout and depression and

Time: 8669.04

anxiety because you're constantly

Time: 8670.92

comparing yourself to an ideal that's

Time: 8672.76

unachievable um perfectionists um are

Time: 8675.439

not they do get better grades in school

Time: 8677.52

slightly but they don't do any better at

Time: 8679.399

work than their peers because I think in

Time: 8682.2

school you have a predictable outcome uh

Time: 8684.8

you have a general sense of what's going

Time: 8686.08

to be on a test and if you study hard

Time: 8688.12

enough you can come closer to the A+

Time: 8690.359

whereas at work performance is much more

Time: 8692.16

nebulous and so what happens to

Time: 8693.76

perfectionists a lot of times is they

Time: 8695.96

end up um optimizing the things that are

Time: 8697.96

predictable and controllable and then

Time: 8699.96

you know sort of missing the forest and

Time: 8701.319

the trees and I think the you know the

Time: 8704.68

the antidotes um as far as I know really

Time: 8707.24

have to to do with calibration so you

Time: 8709.56

know I talked earlier about um how I

Time: 8711.399

like to ask for a zero to 10 to find out

Time: 8714.04

you know am I in the ballpark or not

Time: 8716.2

well one my biggest liabilities as as a

Time: 8718.359

diver was I was never satisfied with my

Time: 8720.8

score and one day Eric said to me you

Time: 8723

know you you hear Olympic judges talk

Time: 8724.76

about commentators talk about the

Time: 8726.359

perfect 10 that's a misnomer um if you

Time: 8729.2

look at the diving rule book a 10 is for

Time: 8730.68

excellence not for Perfection there's no

Time: 8733.2

such thing as a Flawless dive I can look

Time: 8735.359

at Dives that have gotten straight tens

Time: 8736.84

and point out 19 things that were wrong

Time: 8738.64

with them but they were excellent and so

Time: 8741.08

then we had to define the standards of

Time: 8742.359

excellence so what I have as a

Time: 8744.04

recovering perfectionist somebody who

Time: 8746.319

you know just beat myself up constantly

Time: 8748.359

in fact I got um we did paper plate

Time: 8750.76

Awards on my swim team and one year I

Time: 8753.359

was given the if only award and there's

Time: 8756

a little cartoon in me and it says if

Time: 8757.92

only I had pointed my left pinky toe I

Time: 8760.12

would have gotten an eight and a half

Time: 8761.16

instead of an eight and that was like

Time: 8763.16

the story of my my diving career and I

Time: 8765

did not want to be that person anymore

Time: 8767.68

and so one of the things I've learned to

Time: 8769.12

do is to when I start anything um you

Time: 8771.68

know if I sit down to write a book I'm

Time: 8773.439

aiming for a nine uh and the reason for

Time: 8777.24

that is I'm going to pour a couple years

Time: 8778.88

of you know my work life into this topic

Time: 8781.56

um you know hopefully a lot of people

Time: 8783.399

are going to read it and I want to make

Time: 8785.04

sure it's truly the best work I can

Time: 8786.84

produce social media post I'm okay with

Time: 8789.96

a seven like if I'm only shooting for a

Time: 8792.24

nine I'm not going to post very often

Time: 8794.6

because you're nine your ceiling for

Time: 8796.12

nine is or your threshold for nine is is

Time: 8798.279

so exceedingly it's high yeah and I want

Time: 8800.279

it to keep getting higher over time so

Time: 8801.72

my idea of a nine today is much more

Time: 8803.64

challenging than it was 10 years ago and

Time: 8806.2

I think this is this is what people

Time: 8808.479

probably don't do enough um especially

Time: 8810.72

if you're an extreme perfectionist is

Time: 8812.68

they don't realize okay um Let me let me

Time: 8815.2

figure out how important this task is

Time: 8816.84

and then for this task a six is

Time: 8818.8

sufficient uh so that then I can pour my

Time: 8821.279

energy into you know pulling the the

Time: 8823.56

seven and a half toward a nine where it

Time: 8825.04

really matters um and inevitably if you

Time: 8827.72

don't do that what you will do is you

Time: 8829.319

will get a bunch of nines on things that

Time: 8831.72

are completely trivial I went to a high

Time: 8834.2

school where we had a couple kids get um

Time: 8836.76

perfect on the SAT they were the big

Time: 8839.479

like centerfold list of all the early

Time: 8841.64

admissions to all the fancy IV League

Time: 8843.279

schools definitely was not on that list

Time: 8845.439

I don't even know if I yeah I don't even

Time: 8848

know if I was anywhere uh near that list

Time: 8851.08

um probably not um and some of them have

Time: 8855.2

gone on to have terrific lives and seem

Time: 8857.92

pretty happy and I know a number of them

Time: 8859.24

and in contact with them and um I think

Time: 8861.359

for some of them that performed

Time: 8862.72

exceedingly well on standardized tests

Time: 8865.319

early on um

Time: 8867.24

I hear a bit more dismay in their in

Time: 8869.6

their current life not all but um is

Time: 8872.72

there I have to imagine there are data

Time: 8874.72

on his sort of early high performance

Time: 8877.84

being a seed for challenges later on

Time: 8881.24

obviously you don't want the the

Time: 8882.52

opposite um the sort of what I guess

Time: 8884.64

they refer to now is a you know complete

Time: 8886.56

Failure to Launch you know people not

Time: 8889

meeting the the mileston towards being

Time: 8891.68

um self-sufficient adults but um yeah

Time: 8895.439

what are some of the dangers of suc ESS

Time: 8897.359

when thinking about realizing one's

Time: 8899.319

larger potential oh that's such an

Time: 8901.68

interesting question um I

Time: 8904.2

think yeah I think the data on this go

Time: 8906.6

both ways so you know some early success

Time: 8909.399

is um you know it's a motivator it

Time: 8911.479

builds the kind of momentum you were

Time: 8912.64

talking about earlier um you know like

Time: 8915

there's a goal setting researchers like

Time: 8916.56

lock and leam have talked about um The

Time: 8918.479

High Performance Cycle where you hit a

Time: 8921.279

goal and then that builds your

Time: 8923.6

confidence and then you set a more

Time: 8924.96

ambitious goal and then you reach it and

Time: 8926.439

there's 's this upward spiral over time

Time: 8928.52

but there's also a mountain of evidence

Time: 8930.72

that achieving your goals can make you

Time: 8932.439

complacent uh and there's a sometimes

Time: 8935.2

it's called The Fat Cat syndrome where

Time: 8936.72

where you end up resting on your laurels

Time: 8938.68

and then there are also competency traps

Time: 8940.92

where you get good at something and then

Time: 8942.96

you keep doing it the way you've always

Time: 8944.279

done it and you don't realize the world

Time: 8945.84

has changed around you like I'm I'm

Time: 8947.479

allergic to the idea of best practices

Time: 8949.84

like the moment you call it practice

Time: 8951.24

best you've created an illusion that

Time: 8952.88

you're done and the moment like think

Time: 8955.6

about um pre like a lot of companies had

Time: 8958

really you know what they thought were

Time: 8959.96

effective models for collaboration and

Time: 8962.08

all of a sudden their best practices are

Time: 8963.64

not feasible because everybody's working

Time: 8964.96

remotely uh and they've got to throw

Time: 8966.64

that out the window and look for better

Time: 8968.319

practices for an evolved world so I

Time: 8971.439

think

Time: 8973.04

um those are the things I worry about

Time: 8975.2

most with early

Time: 8976.56

success uh I think that one of the

Time: 8979.279

things I would love to see more people

Time: 8980.6

do when it comes to reaching potential

Time: 8982.64

is um is to figure out what does my

Time: 8987.24

failure budget look like so um tell you

Time: 8991.279

my experience on this um you know it

Time: 8993.64

started I wrote I wrote a first book um

Time: 8996.8

gave a TED Talk and pretty soon felt

Time: 9000.08

like I was spending 80% of my time

Time: 9002.64

saying things I already knew and I was

Time: 9004.64

getting typ cast I'm like I'm not

Time: 9006.76

learning and growing but I'm also not I

Time: 9008.56

don't feel like I'm contributing new

Time: 9009.88

knowledge to the world what am I going

Time: 9011.399

to do about that and 2018 rolls around

Time: 9015.04

I'm like you know what this I'm going to

Time: 9016.24

start a podcast and that will be my you

Time: 9018.2

know my learning

Time: 9019.439

mechanism and I didn't know if it was

Time: 9021.16

going to work I didn't know how the

Time: 9022.76

medium would work for me I didn't know

Time: 9023.96

if people were going to want to listen

Time: 9025.08

to my voice I certainly don't um maybe

Time: 9027.52

Morgan Freeman likes the sound of his

Time: 9028.92

own voice I like I like listening to

Time: 9031.279

your podcast I also enjoy listening to

Time: 9034.08

yours but

Time: 9035.08

you I think everybody hates the sound of

Time: 9037.319

their voice I just I just wasn't sure

Time: 9039.24

for a lot of reasons whether it was

Time: 9040.479

going to work um and then I thought

Time: 9043.52

about it and I realized well

Time: 9047

all of the the pivotal moments in my

Time: 9049.24

career have come from taking a

Time: 9051.12

risk and I thought that I needed to

Time: 9053.439

build the confidence in order to do it

Time: 9057.24

and I was reflecting on goal setting

Time: 9059.04

research as as one

Time: 9060.96

does realized you know like the

Time: 9064.24

confidence is going to come through

Time: 9065.76

doing it um and so let me try it and I

Time: 9069.88

guess what I took away was if I don't if

Time: 9072.16

I never fail it means I'm not

Time: 9073.88

challenging myself I'm not embracing

Time: 9075.8

discomfort

Time: 9077.04

um I'm not being enough of an

Time: 9078.88

imperfectionist so um I set I actually

Time: 9081.68

set a goal that I would start at least

Time: 9083.279

one project every year that didn't

Time: 9084.88

succeed and let's be clear I'm not

Time: 9086.72

aiming for failure what I'm doing is is

Time: 9088.92

creating an acceptable zone of failure

Time: 9091

to know that that's going to motivate

Time: 9092.399

some risk taking and some

Time: 9093.52

experimentation and hopefully some

Time: 9095.12

growth and I know it's hard for a lot of

Time: 9097.12

people to do this in their lives

Time: 9098.279

especially if you have a you know a

Time: 9099.64

super demanding boss um but I think

Time: 9102.359

we're we're all better off from a you

Time: 9104.08

know a growth and potential standpoint

Time: 9105.88

if we you've got you know if you if you

Time: 9108.04

succeed on 90% of your projects that

Time: 9109.76

should be a hugely successful year if

Time: 9112.04

you succeed on 100% I think you're

Time: 9114.2

aiming too low what are some of the

Time: 9116.72

projects that uh you are currently

Time: 9118.68

spinning in the back of your mind that

Time: 9120.12

would be fun but uh if you're willing to

Time: 9122.96

share um yeah that for you still strike

Time: 9126.16

a little bit of a of an anxiety cord

Time: 9128.92

like oh no like are you um I don't know

Time: 9131.76

are you a musician do you are tun can't

Time: 9135.279

keep it beat are you thinking about um

Time: 9137.64

becoming a musician or exploring playing

Time: 9139.6

music I mean what how the reason I ask

Time: 9142.2

it that way is um how far into your

Time: 9145.359

discomfort Zone do you reach in order to

Time: 9148.72

um in order to challenge yourself

Time: 9150.52

because I think that everyone needs to

Time: 9151.8

have thresholds like there are a lot of

Time: 9153.319

things that yeah I wish I could play a

Time: 9154.64

musical instrument frankly but I'm I'm

Time: 9156.92

not that motivated to do it mostly

Time: 9158.68

because I enjoy hearing other people

Time: 9160.08

play music so much that I'm perfectly

Time: 9162.16

happy I'm saded yeah there's also enough

Time: 9164.359

good music out there you don't have to

Time: 9165.72

create it 's definitely a lot of great

Time: 9167.2

music yeah um so I think there's like a

Time: 9169.439

there's a micro and a macro version of

Time: 9170.72

this so on the micro side um in then

Time: 9173.52

past year um I I did this work Life

Time: 9176.08

podcast for five years where I was you

Time: 9177.88

know taking the core of my

Time: 9178.84

organizational psychology work and

Time: 9180.72

trying to take on a topic and and make

Time: 9182.88

it interesting and useful to people and

Time: 9185.319

then realizing I was feeling constrained

Time: 9186.68

just to focus on work and as a

Time: 9188.279

psychologist there are lots of other

Time: 9189.56

things I want to take on and so we

Time: 9190.72

expanded into um this second show

Time: 9193.359

rethinking and I have some experiments

Time: 9195.319

I'm tempted to try but I've been really

Time: 9196.84

hesitant to do them so um did you watch

Time: 9199.2

wrestling growing up ever professional

Time: 9200.96

wrestling um I did watch a little bit of

Time: 9203.8

it and then for whatever reason in the

Time: 9206.479

last year uh my good friend Rick Rubin

Time: 9208.92

who's he's like not obsessed but he is a

Time: 9212.2

real devotees he's a fan of professional

Time: 9214.68

wrestling he had me watch some um WWE

Time: 9217.359

but even aew he was explaining that it's

Time: 9220.279

basically physical drama he's explaining

Time: 9222.64

why it's so intriguing to him and so

Time: 9224.2

informative to him and then uh I'm a big

Time: 9227

fan of of certain genre of music and

Time: 9229.359

Lars Frederickson from ransett is a is a

Time: 9231.399

huge wrestling fan so now got multiple

Time: 9233.68

people that have come into contact with

Time: 9234.92

they like telling me all this stuff

Time: 9235.96

about wrestling so wrestling seems to be

Time: 9237.68

cropping up more and more all right so I

Time: 9239.56

don't know the first thing about

Time: 9240.439

wrestling I think I caught it a few

Time: 9242

times as a kid likewise it was Hulk

Time: 9244.8

Hogan and a few others passed across

Time: 9246.64

screen yeah yep y but the the thing that

Time: 9248.84

I remember was loving the tag team

Time: 9250.439

matches where you know somebody would

Time: 9252.8

get overpowered and then they pull in

Time: 9254.479

somebody to help I it would be so

Time: 9256.68

interesting if there was a podcast where

Time: 9258.52

you take issues that people

Time: 9260.439

fundamentally disagree on and you start

Time: 9261.92

a debate and then somebody can tag in if

Time: 9264.96

they want to challenge an argument and

Time: 9266.72

so instead of concent concentrating on

Time: 9268.96

the particular guests you have you

Time: 9271.12

basically have a problem you're trying

Time: 9273.12

to you know to get to the roots of and

Time: 9275.08

you're going to have all these people

Time: 9276.12

jump in and and hopefully build toward a

Time: 9277.88

more insightful perspective on it I have

Time: 9280.479

no idea if this is going to work I'd

Time: 9282.359

really love to try it and this is the

Time: 9284.08

first time I've spoken out loud about it

Time: 9286.16

because I'm like I I don't know that I

Time: 9288.88

want to like that I want to see that

Time: 9290.16

crash and burn and yet like why not like

Time: 9291.88

what's the risk I think it's so cool fun

Time: 9294.359

right yeah what what topics are are uh

Time: 9297.16

are you thinking about covering because

Time: 9298.64

I can think of some pretty pretty

Time: 9299.96

controversial topics um but I want to

Time: 9301.96

know what the ones you're thinking about

Time: 9303.52

well I mean I literally just I mean I'm

Time: 9305.88

thinking out loud here but one one that

Time: 9307.8

I think on the controversial front that

Time: 9309.439

would be could be really rich is um to

Time: 9312.399

think about policies for Trans athletes

Time: 9314.8

in sports that's a controversial topic

Time: 9317

hugely controversial but also I've I've

Time: 9318.92

talked to some experts on this I I've

Time: 9320.76

talked to some trans athletes um and the

Time: 9323.04

people who are deep in this do not know

Time: 9324.96

what they think the policy should be and

Time: 9327.399

so I I think actually hearing them talk

Time: 9329.92

and you know understanding the

Time: 9331.279

complexity of those issues and then you

Time: 9333.359

know maybe hammering out what what's a

Time: 9335.68

policy you would propose for schools

Time: 9337.12

what would you want for you know for

Time: 9338.56

Olympic events um I I just think that

Time: 9340.64

would be fascinating and I'd love to I'd

Time: 9342.52

love to moderate that discussion

Time: 9344.92

goodness uh maybe I would I wouldn't I

Time: 9347.56

don't want to wait into that one I'm

Time: 9348.64

glad you would I wouldn't that seems

Time: 9350.64

like one of the most barbed wire topics

Time: 9352.52

one could ever um embark on which is

Time: 9354.479

exactly why I'm going to put in my vote

Time: 9356.359

you absolutely should do this podcast I

Time: 9359.279

think it's an amazing idea actually

Time: 9360.68

folks put in the comment section on

Time: 9362.04

YouTube whether or not Adam should do

Time: 9363.84

this podcast and and that topic in

Time: 9365.96

particular I think it would be amazing

Time: 9367.96

because um one thing that I keep coming

Time: 9370.479

back to in my own mind is that a lot of

Time: 9372.6

the controversies out there stem from

Time: 9374.84

the fact that we very often have

Time: 9377.92

individuals pitted against individuals

Time: 9380.439

yes and there's so much lost in that um

Time: 9384.12

and I think about science and going back

Time: 9385.8

to the scientific method where we have

Time: 9388.76

subfields pitted against subfields when

Time: 9391.439

when you talk about a field like there

Time: 9392.84

was huge controversy over the structure

Time: 9394.479

of DNA and it wasn't one individual

Time: 9396.64

against another what you had are small

Time: 9398.16

groups different camps and there was

Time: 9399.68

some partial overlap there's also you

Time: 9402.04

know if you read the double helix there

Time: 9403.319

was also a lot of uh uh comp Behavior

Time: 9407.24

people entering romantic relationships

Time: 9409.04

just to G information from the other

Time: 9410.56

side you know human beings not not at

Time: 9412.52

their finest um but in any event small

Time: 9416.92

panels arguing competing teams competing

Time: 9420.68

I think is um far more interesting and

Time: 9423.72

informative than individuals you know

Time: 9426.08

butting heads I think so too and I think

Time: 9428.64

um you know another another one that I

Time: 9430.16

think would be really interesting I mean

Time: 9431.399

I'm like people always say great minds

Time: 9432.68

think alike no great minds challenge

Time: 9435.479

each other to think differently and we

Time: 9437.76

just don't do enough of that so I I've

Time: 9440.479

been thinking a lot politically like

Time: 9443.439

what if we brought together a bunch of

Time: 9445.76

people um who are not ideologues but are

Time: 9448.96

really interested in pragmatic policy

Time: 9451.04

solutions to rewrite the Constitution if

Time: 9453.479

we were going to build one today You'

Time: 9455.279

like to tackle big stuff I just I know I

Time: 9457.88

love it I love it it's a compliment it's

Time: 9459.52

a compl I mean what are the odds like I

Time: 9461.72

said earlier no weak sauce no weak sauce

Time: 9464.64

like you just you're you go right for it

Time: 9466.68

I mean these listen these are the issues

Time: 9468.64

that people are really activated by

Time: 9472.6

because these are really core issues

Time: 9475.68

they get down to the autonomic nervous

Time: 9477.64

system they're in the hypothalamus as we

Time: 9479.399

say but I don't think they should be

Time: 9480.6

like I look at these topics and think I

Time: 9482.64

just want to get it right like I don't

Time: 9484

have a vested interest in what the model

Time: 9485.76

should be I just know that even the

Time: 9488.319

wisest people of 250 years ago we not

Time: 9491.56

prepared to anticipate the world we live

Time: 9493.439

in today and we ought to be constantly

Time: 9496.359

like I don't know I don't think you

Time: 9497.399

should live in a world where you affirm

Time: 9498.6

your beliefs uh I think the only way you

Time: 9500.439

learn is by continually evolving your

Time: 9501.96

beliefs and so I guess I'm trying to

Time: 9504

figure out more ways to catalyze that

Time: 9506.359

around issues people care about but I

Time: 9508.279

don't care about the issues I care about

Time: 9509.96

the stretching of thinking and the

Time: 9511.52

improving the way that the world works

Time: 9513.72

well I'll tell you if you decide to do

Time: 9515.16

this podcast with a tag team form I love

Time: 9517.24

that you gleaned it from watching

Time: 9518.319

wrestling a couple of times um around

Time: 9521.08

these uh very controversial issues uh I

Time: 9524.24

promise you that will be one of of the

Time: 9526

most popular and important podcasts on

Time: 9528.96

the planet Earth might be podcasts on

Time: 9530.76

other planets I hear that they're you

Time: 9532.319

know galaxies far far away with a they

Time: 9534.399

may have podcast too may have had them

Time: 9535.92

for much longer than we have but um

Time: 9539

that's uh that's a winner yeah well

Time: 9541.52

maybe maybe I'll try it as a little

Time: 9543.12

experiment on the rethinking feed and

Time: 9544.6

see if it's an unmitigated

Time: 9547.399

disaster well you know where my vote

Time: 9549.279

lies I I appreciate that so okay so to

Time: 9551.399

go back to your question for a second on

Time: 9552.56

the macro side I've always thought it

Time: 9555.08

would be fun to try to write a Sci-Fi

Time: 9556.76

novel and the question I'm wrestling

Time: 9558.76

with right now is is that a good use of

Time: 9560.279

my time like there are great sci-fi

Time: 9562

writers out there there aren't that many

Time: 9564.319

social scientists communicating about

Time: 9566.279

the topics that I do and it feels like

Time: 9569.279

it might be I don't know I'm like this

Time: 9573.04

is it might be too much of a diversion

Time: 9576.319

then again uh according to your words um

Time: 9580.6

you had no talent in diving but you

Time: 9583.52

exceeded all all uh performance metrics

Time: 9586.319

um by by considerable amount uh through

Time: 9590.24

motivation and um and opportunity I got

Time: 9593.479

that right um I vote Yes uh I'm not I

Time: 9596.359

haven't read much sci-fi maybe I need to

Time: 9597.92

read read more sci-fi are you a fan of

Time: 9599.68

sci-fi I love sci-fi it's it's one of my

Time: 9602.24

favorite ways to imagine a better world

Time: 9605

and also you know prevent a worse one

Time: 9607.68

from emerging but I don't know there's a

Time: 9610.439

there's a part of me that thinks all

Time: 9612.68

right there's a there's Ru Bernstein and

Time: 9615.08

colleagues uh did this do you know this

Time: 9616.479

research on um Nobel prize winning

Time: 9618.04

scientists and what differentiates them

Time: 9619.359

from their peers uh no but uh being the

Time: 9622.76

son of a physicist and having been

Time: 9624.319

surrounded by just by circumstance a

Time: 9626.68

number of Nobel Prize winners uh when I

Time: 9628.68

was a kid young kid I'm very curious to

Time: 9631.279

know what what this research says I mean

Time: 9633.8

there there's there are many themes you

Time: 9635.52

could glean from it but the the thing

Time: 9637.08

that really jumped out at me is uh the

Time: 9639.56

Nobel Prize winners were more likely to

Time: 9640.92

have artistic Hobbies H Fineman

Time: 9643.64

certainly did yep um I mean there's a

Time: 9646.16

long list of them but if you break it

Time: 9647.56

down in the data it was um they're twice

Time: 9649.76

as likely as their peers to play a

Time: 9651.08

musical instrument there're seven times

Time: 9653.8

as likely to draw a paint they're 12

Time: 9656.52

times as likely to do um poetry or

Time: 9659.16

fiction creative writing and get this 22

Time: 9662

times as likely as their peers 22 to

Time: 9664.88

dance act or yes perform as

Time: 9668.56

magicians a former magician I was very

Time: 9670.6

excited by this yeah well I wasn't going

Time: 9672.64

to ask about magic but let's talk about

Time: 9674.439

it I was on

Time: 9675.96

uh vacation with every year I take my

Time: 9677.359

sister in New York for her birthday and

Time: 9678.72

my birthday because our birthdays are

Time: 9679.84

close together and we went and saw a

Time: 9681.96

magician Mentalist um by the name of AI

Time: 9684.52

wind um Azie I think is the correct

Time: 9687.439

pronunciation um who just just like the

Time: 9690.84

last time I saw absolutely blew my mind

Time: 9693.399

there's no way it's not magic of course

Time: 9696.439

I know it's not magic but it's um that

Time: 9699.64

but my understanding is that there are

Time: 9701.12

some things that he and other great

Time: 9703.319

mentalists and magicians do where they

Time: 9705

are not absolutely certain of the

Time: 9706.439

outcome they're they're playing it's

Time: 9708.64

probabilistic um and so there's a risk

Time: 9710.84

and a thrill for them too um and that

Time: 9713.04

they're also creating memories and

Time: 9714.279

erasing memories and um that's something

Time: 9716.52

that we I may host aie on the podcast

Time: 9718.56

because he's very effective at creating

Time: 9720.64

memories and erasing memories that's a

Time: 9722.88

lot of what he does and he has tactics

Time: 9724.72

to do that in any event um I wasn't

Time: 9727.84

going to ask about magic but I know that

Time: 9730.2

you were a professional magician at at

Time: 9732.68

one point in your life um and that you

Time: 9734.84

you did this presumably because you

Time: 9736.16

enjoy doing it um but getting beyond the

Time: 9738.92

the sort of uh pull the rabbit out of

Time: 9740.319

the hat or pick or identify the card

Time: 9742.359

that the person picked out of the the

Time: 9743.52

shuffled stack um what is it and what

Time: 9746.479

was it about magic that intrigues you

Time: 9748.399

does it inform anything about um the

Time: 9750.8

work that you do now it does yeah I yeah

Time: 9753.52

I think it when I started I was 12 and I

Time: 9755.72

was just it was just fun and I was

Time: 9757.359

looking for a way to entertain other

Time: 9759.6

people and entertain myself in the

Time: 9761.2

process and then you know became a

Time: 9762.6

challenge can I learn this new skill and

Time: 9764.479

can I can I master this trick I think um

Time: 9767.68

nerdiest thing I did in college was I

Time: 9769.24

started a magic club with David Quang

Time: 9772.24

who is a a stellar magician and Cru

Time: 9775.8

verbalist as he calls it Cru verbalist

Time: 9778.279

he does um magic crossw puzzles

Time: 9781.08

essentially that I I can't do it justice

Time: 9783.359

you have to see it it's unreal um and I

Time: 9786.04

watched him for you know our first

Time: 9788.16

performance together and realized one of

Time: 9790.04

us is going to make it as a magician and

Time: 9791.64

it's not me uh he's he's outstanding

Time: 9794.399

anyway um the way it figures into my

Time: 9796.56

work now is I think so much of good

Time: 9798.479

science communication is

Time: 9800.479

misdirection and it's the same skill I

Time: 9802.64

use as magician if I told you that the

Time: 9805.92

the card you picked was about to

Time: 9807.88

disappear from the deck and appear on

Time: 9809.439

the window you would not be nearly as

Time: 9812.12

intrigued as if it happened by surprise

Time: 9815.04

and I think the same is true when when

Time: 9816.6

we communicate knowledge I think it's

Time: 9818.279

it's actually why so many of my posts

Time: 9820.04

you flagged this earlier so many of my

Time: 9821.52

posts start with um you know this thing

Time: 9824.2

is not what you think it's actually this

Time: 9825.72

other thing um I think that you know

Time: 9828

challenging conventional wisdom

Time: 9829.399

questioning assumptions is is what

Time: 9831.479

surprises people um and then leads them

Time: 9833.72

to think either I have something to

Time: 9835.12

learn or Oh no I got to put up a shield

Time: 9837.479

because my beliefs are being um

Time: 9839.56

challenged or attacked and I think the

Time: 9842.08

the art form of magic was always about

Time: 9844.04

creating a surprise that would Delight

Time: 9845.52

people um as opposed to Leading people

Time: 9847.76

to feel like they were tricked or duped

Time: 9849.76

or manipulated and so I think the the

Time: 9852.359

challenge for me is to say Okay I want

Time: 9853.92

to figure out what what we know from

Time: 9856.08

Behavioral Science um you know mostly

Time: 9858.84

focusing on psychology because that's my

Time: 9860.359

core expertise um what do we know that's

Time: 9863.16

actually different from most intuition

Time: 9866.12

and then how do I explain that in a way

Time: 9867.76

that surprises people but leads them to

Time: 9869.479

say oh that's so interesting as opposed

Time: 9871.88

to that's wrong and then want to fight

Time: 9874.76

about it it's almost as if you give them

Time: 9877.52

the experience of what you're trying to

Time: 9879.96

teach them so that the oh that's wrong

Time: 9882.88

can't uh be the available respon

Time: 9885.16

response yes because in Magic you know

Time: 9888

it's it's um everyone knows it's magic

Time: 9891.64

just like with professional wrestling

Time: 9893.68

Folks by the way it there's there's some

Time: 9896.6

prior understanding of of what's going

Time: 9898.12

to happen maybe they go off script but I

Time: 9899.68

think that's actually I think part of

Time: 9901.72

the interest in professional wrestling

Time: 9904.12

for those that are extreme fans of

Time: 9906

professional wrestling is that they

Time: 9908.279

almost want to wonder about whether or

Time: 9910.92

not some of it is not in the plan like

Time: 9913.479

it's a suspension of of real

Time: 9915.68

that they seem to enjoy right because if

Time: 9917.6

you know something's fake or well we

Time: 9920.8

should we should be I should be more

Time: 9922.319

careful about my language in with magic

Time: 9924.64

like when I went see aie I mean I I

Time: 9926.8

don't think it's actual magic but he's

Time: 9929.24

able to give the illusion of Magic the

Time: 9931.88

real illusion is that it's magic right

Time: 9934.479

it's not the illusion of making the card

Time: 9936.12

hop to somewhere else in the room um and

Time: 9939.56

he is phenomenal and I highly recommend

Time: 9941.2

people go see his show if they if they

Time: 9942.6

get the opportunity but the I think

Time: 9944.399

they're doing a documentary about him

Time: 9945.92

now actually there'll be some Netflix

Time: 9947.68

stuff as well um but it's the illusion

Time: 9950.479

that magic exists That's so

Time: 9953.439

exciting um so with science

Time: 9956.399

communication yeah I always um aim for

Time: 9958.68

four things I don't always achieve them

Time: 9960.279

but and I think you do as well uh if I

Time: 9962.76

may that um a topic be interesting clear

Time: 9967.2

ideally actionable but not always and

Time: 9970

the the quadfecta is when it's also

Time: 9971.64

surprising so interesting clear

Time: 9973.08

actionable and surprising sort of is the

Time: 9975.08

the ultimate if there's sort of a like a

Time: 9976.92

oh I didn't realize that but it's it's

Time: 9979.12

hard to find data points that satisfy

Time: 9980.92

all four criteria and the surprising is

Time: 9982.72

the least important by far um I assume

Time: 9986.08

table Stakes is it's rigorous oh well

Time: 9989.279

okay sitting underneath all four of

Time: 9990.8

those points are uh that it's scci that

Time: 9994.24

it's actual science right someone didn't

Time: 9996.08

just say it right it's not conjecture or

Time: 9997.92

Theory so that means that there's data

Time: 9999.52

to support it and that the data were

Time: 10000.8

collected with with the appropriate

Time: 10002.08

amount of rigor right so there's a

Time: 10003.52

there's a reservoir of stuff that sits

Time: 10004.88

on underneath as a foundation so G given

Time: 10007.08

the the Baseline of rigor how do I find

Time: 10009.6

what's interesting clear actionable and

Time: 10012.359

hopefully surprising although I would I

Time: 10014.12

okay I would make a case there's a

Time: 10015.92

classic article that Murray Davis wrote

Time: 10017.439

one of my all-time favorites he was a a

Time: 10019.16

sociologist who wrote a paper called

Time: 10020.72

that's interesting and he opened the

Time: 10022.6

paper by saying um ideas live not

Time: 10025.8

because they're true but because they're

Time: 10027.88

interesting which decimated one of my

Time: 10030.96

core beliefs like I I thought it was

Time: 10033.52

accuracy that drove people's belief

Time: 10035

beliefs and he said no ideas live

Time: 10037.96

because they're interesting and then he

Time: 10039.8

goes to build an index of the

Time: 10041.04

interesting to explain when people are

Time: 10043.52

intrigued and his case is that most of

Time: 10045.88

interest is surprise and he breaks down

Time: 10048.319

all the ways that you can turn

Time: 10049.88

conventional wisdom upside down you can

Time: 10051.56

say that um something you thought was

Time: 10053.56

bad was actually good or vice versa you

Time: 10056.24

can argue that um something you thought

Time: 10058.399

was homogeneous is actually

Time: 10060.16

heterogeneous uh you could argue that

Time: 10062.16

something you thought was individual was

Time: 10063.52

actually a collective phenomenon or vice

Time: 10065.12

versa and he he's got this wonderful

Time: 10066.6

breakdown of of all the ways of being

Time: 10068.2

interesting and he's the one who made

Time: 10069.64

the distinction between ideas that

Time: 10071.76

challenge weekly held assumptions

Time: 10073.16

intriguing you and strongly held

Time: 10074.96

assumptions um you know sort of

Time: 10076.439

offending you but I think from Davis's

Time: 10079.359

View and I think he's right a huge

Time: 10080.96

amount of interest is surprise and so

Time: 10083.52

but I don't think it's the only driver

Time: 10084.88

of Interest so I might I might take your

Time: 10086.68

criteria and say okay we start with

Time: 10087.92

riger um we want to go to interest

Time: 10090.08

Clarity and actionability how do we get

Time: 10092.479

to interest let's build a submodel of

Time: 10094.439

the fact that drive interest and

Time: 10095.96

surprise might be it might have the

Time: 10097.56

biggest beta weight in the regression

Time: 10099.2

equation um but what else what else

Time: 10101.8

drives interest I have a couple

Time: 10103.04

hypothesis I want to hear yours um

Time: 10104.92

you've been doing this actively um and

Time: 10107.399

highly effectively Beyond surprise what

Time: 10109.52

else interests people in your

Time: 10111.84

content anything that draws on

Time: 10114.56

self-reflection for them boom I think we

Time: 10117.439

all have an innate desire to better

Time: 10120.08

understand ourselves why why we work the

Time: 10121.88

way we do why we don't work as well as

Time: 10123.92

we would like to in certain domains like

Time: 10125.52

some and and cast understanding on on

Time: 10127.76

our experiences of others too like oh

Time: 10130.6

now it makes sense like a with going

Time: 10132.92

back to the the kti episodes but we did

Time: 10134.72

several of them so for um I think it's

Time: 10136.319

appropriate you know to learn from him

Time: 10138.56

that narcissism is Envy it represents a

Time: 10142.439

a extreme deficiency in the pleasure um

Time: 10146.8

that people narcissists can have an

Time: 10148.399

extreme pleasure drive but they they

Time: 10150.04

always feel like they have far less than

Time: 10152.479

they would like to have and that others

Time: 10153.76

have far more of it because don't have

Time: 10155.24

that same yearning for it right and so

Time: 10157.56

that narcissism at its core is deep envy

Time: 10161.239

that to me was like wow you know and to

Time: 10163.96

to realize that and to Now understand

Time: 10165.479

that all this discussion that you hear

Time: 10166.6

out there about narcissist everyone

Time: 10167.76

calling other people narcissist that um

Time: 10170.319

there are genuine narcissists out there

Time: 10172.12

and what they really suffer from is an

Time: 10174.359

extreme deficit in pleasure and they're

Time: 10177.56

constantly envious of others it reframed

Time: 10180.12

everything I thought about narcissists

Time: 10182.2

about them being overbearing which they

Time: 10183.64

can be and often are

Time: 10185.239

um etc etc so I think it's also anything

Time: 10187.72

that leads to um like oh I can I can I

Time: 10191.04

can navigate narcissist better with that

Time: 10194.04

well that I mean that checks all your

Time: 10195

boxes um it's very surprising because

Time: 10196.72

it's not the way we normally understand

Time: 10197.92

narcissism but I think you you hit on

Time: 10200.08

for me what's the maybe even it's at

Time: 10203.12

least as important as surprise maybe

Time: 10205.04

more so is

Time: 10206.52

self-relevance and it doesn't have to be

Time: 10208.88

actionable right it has to in a lot of

Time: 10210.76

cases just help you understand or make

Time: 10212.279

sense of something that's been puzzling

Time: 10214.2

or that's you know that's um you know

Time: 10216.6

sort of I I think I'm I'm almost always

Time: 10219.76

surprised when I say something from you

Time: 10222.359

know here here's here's a synthesis of

Time: 10224.319

research here's a metaanalysis and I

Time: 10227

think it's kind of obvious and people

Time: 10229

get excited about it because it gave

Time: 10230.6

them language to describe something they

Time: 10232.04

had felt but they didn't know how to

Time: 10233.92

articulate or talk about and I think

Time: 10237.399

that I mean I think this is why most of

Time: 10240.08

the most popular TED Talks um are about

Time: 10242.2

human behavior um because people are

Time: 10244.2

interested in people um and if you learn

Time: 10246.84

something about you or about others you

Time: 10248.96

don't have to immediately do anything

Time: 10250.439

with that uh to find it intriguing and

Time: 10253

even useful um because it enriched your

Time: 10255.68

worldview a recent guest on this podcast

Time: 10258.04

we haven't aired it yet but um maybe

Time: 10259.72

it'll be out by time this this a was

Time: 10261.439

with Lisa Feldman Barrett she's um Psy

Time: 10264.16

psychologist or neuroscientist right

Time: 10266.08

emotion of course yeah and she described

Time: 10269.12

um in how in certain cultures there is a

Time: 10271.279

language for subcategories of emotions

Time: 10275.08

right so you know she described a word

Time: 10276.96

in Japanese I don't recall what the word

Time: 10278.76

was um that describes the the feeling of

Time: 10281.8

sadness that one has after getting a

Time: 10283.52

particularly bad haircut something that

Time: 10285.479

I don't think you or I uh are familiar

Time: 10287.56

with but I'm familiar with from my

Time: 10289.279

experience of of romantic partner being

Time: 10291.359

like really unhappy about their haircut

Time: 10292.76

and you're like you're like you're sad

Time: 10293.88

but there but by having a specific word

Time: 10296.359

for a specific experience people feel

Time: 10299.279

less alone and the feeling passes more

Time: 10302.04

quickly in time and and then she gives

Time: 10304.64

some other examples uh from German and

Time: 10306.68

from you know uh Scandinavian um

Time: 10309.319

languages and so forth and I find this

Time: 10311.16

so interesting it's like the moment

Time: 10313.76

people hear that they are not alone in

Time: 10315.399

an experience there's nothing actionable

Time: 10318

about it but it it creates a cognitive

Time: 10320.52

shift thereafter in which they suffer

Time: 10323.52

less um or may feel more connected to

Time: 10325.8

others I mean I think it's really a

Time: 10327.08

beautiful example of of exactly what

Time: 10328.72

you're referring to like when we learn

Time: 10330.56

about something and we we identify with

Time: 10332.72

it it's powerful it's very powerful and

Time: 10336.279

I think um psychologists often say name

Time: 10339.04

it to tame it um affect labeling is one

Time: 10341.479

of the most effective emotion regulation

Time: 10343.08

strategies and we when we talked about

Time: 10345.12

distraction and reframing earlier I

Time: 10346.96

should have said there's a third

Time: 10347.96

strategy which is literally just to

Time: 10349.88

describe what you're feeling um it it it

Time: 10353.84

seems to allow people then to reason

Time: 10356.16

with and process whatever they're

Time: 10358.239

feeling as opposed to allowing the

Time: 10360.2

feeling to control them and I I probably

Time: 10363.08

got the clearest sense of this and in um

Time: 10365

in

Time: 10365.8

2021 um I wrote a New York Times article

Time: 10368.319

on um on languishing um the feeling of

Time: 10370.96

me or

Time: 10372.279

blah and I have never had anything I any

Time: 10376.2

article I wrote resonate like this and

Time: 10378.72

it just like I all the the PO the post

Time: 10381.479

that tag mate were just like it me it me

Time: 10384.319

it us and it was like the like one and

Time: 10387.12

two word reactions and I I don't think

Time: 10391.12

it was the content that mattered to

Time: 10392.479

people it was the just having the term

Time: 10395.279

um all of a sudden people realized this

Time: 10396.68

is originally Cory Keys's research that

Time: 10398.239

I was referencing um it had been a light

Time: 10400.56

bulb for me to say there's a if you

Time: 10403.16

think about the spectrum of well-being

Time: 10404.56

this is related to your mental illness

Time: 10406.08

versus mental health distinction um

Time: 10408.08

those are two extremes of the Continuum

Time: 10410.04

and one end we have depression and

Time: 10411.56

burnout on another end we have you know

Time: 10413.72

well-being and flourishing languishing

Time: 10415.68

lives right in the middle as Corey

Time: 10417.319

describes it it's the absence of

Time: 10418.72

well-being so you're not depressed you

Time: 10420.68

still have hope you're not burned out

Time: 10422.76

you still have energy but you're not at

Time: 10425.479

Peak functioning you're missing a sense

Time: 10426.96

of purpose um you feel like you're

Time: 10429.88

stagnating and you're empty and you know

Time: 10432.76

there was something about just saying

Time: 10434.16

the word languishing that led people to

Time: 10436.52

to realize yeah that's a thing and of

Time: 10439.92

course we're languishing we're standing

Time: 10441.239

still in the middle of a a global

Time: 10442.96

experiment that no one opted into which

Time: 10445.04

violates all rules of consent um by by

Time: 10448.08

science last time I checked um but I

Time: 10450.68

think that that that's something that

Time: 10453

that probably is under represented when

Time: 10455.279

we're trained to communicate as

Time: 10456.399

scientists to say one of the most

Time: 10457.96

valuable things we do is we give people

Time: 10459.96

language to talk about things and I

Time: 10461.12

think that's a massive part of um of

Time: 10463.12

your impact is uh this is one of the big

Time: 10465.88

things I've learned from you Andrew is I

Time: 10467.56

I I used to be a little bit dismissive

Time: 10469.439

of um of cognitive Neuroscience in

Time: 10472.359

particular I thought understanding the

Time: 10474.399

brain has not taught me that much about

Time: 10476.16

the mind like being able to you know

Time: 10479.12

Trace

Time: 10480.72

um uh let's take a simple example like

Time: 10483.64

when I read Joe Leo's research being

Time: 10485.52

able to trace um you know certain um

Time: 10489.6

amydala responses um you know as the

Time: 10492.479

root of how people deal with fight ORF

Time: 10494.52

flight and and threat I'm like I don't

Time: 10496.72

know that that helped me that much like

Time: 10498.239

if I could just describe fight or flight

Time: 10499.64

do I need the amydala and you've

Time: 10501.84

convinced me I was wrong about that

Time: 10503.479

because when people have when they

Time: 10505.439

understand the um the neurological

Time: 10507.56

substrates of their thoughts feelings

Time: 10509.359

and actions um they believe them more

Time: 10511.319

they're like oh like there is a

Time: 10512.84

mechanism for this it's being produced

Time: 10514.88

inside my head and even though I can't

Time: 10516.399

see it um it's there and it can be

Time: 10518.52

studied with the tools of science um I

Time: 10520.52

think that's a really big deal and I I

Time: 10522.319

really regret the fact that I didn't

Time: 10524.52

spend more time on cognitive

Time: 10525.56

Neuroscience because I think I'd be a

Time: 10526.72

better Psy a better psychologist today

Time: 10529

oh well again thanks for the kind words

Time: 10531.04

I think that um a fortunate evolution in

Time: 10534.92

our fields or even field if I may um

Time: 10538.479

over the last 10 years is that whereas

Time: 10541

Neuroscience itself even needs to be

Time: 10542.76

subdivided into neur Anatomy and the

Time: 10544.8

neurophysiology it's lumped into all

Time: 10547.279

Neuroscience but it now includes

Time: 10548.96

psychology computational Neuroscience

Time: 10550.88

cognitive Neuroscience it's all you know

Time: 10552.439

I think I I consider us um you know we

Time: 10555.04

have different perspectives and

Time: 10556.08

different training obviously but doing a

Time: 10557.96

lot of the same things um just uh using

Time: 10561.72

different um different dissection tools

Time: 10563.6

and different different language based

Time: 10564.88

tools and listen what you've done uh I

Time: 10567.68

won't even say masterfully I mean just

Time: 10569.479

with like extreme virtuosity is to wrap

Time: 10572.319

your hands around such an enormous

Time: 10574.279

literature related to psychology I mean

Time: 10576.479

the human mind and behavior and thought

Time: 10578.319

processes and emotions and potential and

Time: 10580.96

you know so many topics and to um and

Time: 10584.68

to extract the the most valuable gems

Time: 10587.88

from that literature and communicate

Time: 10589.359

them in a way that anyone can understand

Time: 10591.239

and um this is it's an extreme gift uh

Time: 10594.84

to be able to do that and it's um and

Time: 10597.16

it's clear it's working because like you

Time: 10599.239

mentioned this article on languishing

Time: 10600.56

which we will provide a reference to or

Time: 10602.12

a link to in our caption because I want

Time: 10603.68

to go read read that now I mean I'm

Time: 10605.319

always struck by this feeling of like am

Time: 10608.239

I I'm not tired but you know like I've

Time: 10611.52

got tons to do but like why do I just

Time: 10613.08

want to like sit here for a and I'm like

Time: 10615.8

maybe I need to sit here but then you

Time: 10617.12

get into all the like the well okay but

Time: 10619.76

you know I need to there's a lot to do

Time: 10621.239

there's a lot to get up and go I don't

Time: 10622.439

want to waste my life and yeah rest is

Time: 10624.239

good too but I think languishing is

Time: 10626.12

something that like like I definitely

Time: 10628.12

can resonate with that so when I had a

Time: 10630.2

bulldog it felt a lot easier to do cuz

Time: 10631.92

he was always languishing but uh

Time: 10634.6

do you ever just languish or are you

Time: 10636.439

busy enough that you you just feel like

Time: 10638.319

you're always a forward Center of M I

Time: 10640.399

think everybody languishes I think it's

Time: 10641.76

part of the human condition and I think

Time: 10643.479

it might even be evolutionarily adaptive

Time: 10645.68

because I I remember um another sort of

Time: 10649.359

uh mind-altering idea I remember reading

Time: 10652.2

Randy nessie's argument that mild

Time: 10654.64

depression could be evolutionarily

Time: 10656.72

functional that you know obviously

Time: 10659.96

clinical depression um is debilitating

Time: 10661.92

in a lot of ways but you know low grad

Time: 10664.08

sadness um Lincoln's Melancholy um we

Time: 10667.239

know one of one of the things it can do

Time: 10668.68

is broaden your field of vision um and

Time: 10671.16

you know for for many people sadness is

Time: 10673.319

a signal that something is not working

Time: 10675.6

and it can motivate problem solving um

Time: 10677.68

it can in some cases um open access to

Time: 10680.2

New Perspectives um unfortunately those

Time: 10682.64

potential benefits of sadness are often

Time: 10684.52

overridden by the motivational cost and

Time: 10687.72

also the the fact that you now spend all

Time: 10689.52

this time regulating your sadness and

Time: 10690.88

wondering why you're sad right and so

Time: 10692.359

it's it's hard to harness but um I I had

Time: 10695.6

a similar thought about languishing from

Time: 10697.399

this perspective to say that you know

Time: 10699.359

maybe moments of languishing open us up

Time: 10701.319

to change um when we get stuck uh

Time: 10704.56

sometimes we realize you have to move

Time: 10705.84

backward in order to make progress um

Time: 10708.88

sometimes you have to unlearn things

Time: 10711.16

that you thought you knew um in order to

Time: 10714.04

to keep

Time: 10715.239

growing and um I you know I don't a

Time: 10719.2

friend of mine said he read my

Time: 10720.64

languishing piece and he's like you're

Time: 10721.68

not the languishing type I'm like okay

Time: 10723.72

maybe maybe everybody's Baseline is

Time: 10725.12

different like I I think one of the

Time: 10726.84

things I'm I'm really lucky to have is

Time: 10729.12

high reserves of energy um but for me

Time: 10732.439

languishing is like I felt like I did

Time: 10735.12

nothing today um and you know in a

Time: 10737.8

typical day like if I'm writing a book I

Time: 10740.04

should be able to like write a thousand

Time: 10741.6

words I'm proud of and I don't like a

Time: 10743.52

single word that I produced or I sat at

Time: 10746.04

my blinking cursor like staring at the

Time: 10748.2

computer screen and for the eenth time

Time: 10750.76

wondered like do they call it a cursor

Time: 10753.04

because of all the writers who've cursed

Time: 10754.84

it and then I end up like Googling

Time: 10757.439

what's the like what are the Latin roots

Time: 10759.2

of the word cursor where did this come

Time: 10760.84

from and like that is not a good use of

Time: 10762.8

time it's like that's not forward Mass

Time: 10765.08

that's like I'm spinning so so good yeah

Time: 10768.16

I think everybody languishes um and I

Time: 10770.08

aspire to do it less often but not never

Time: 10773.92

love it what does cursor what is the

Time: 10775.8

root of cursor people will look it up

Time: 10777.479

put hey folks put it in the put it in

Time: 10779.359

the uh comments on YouTube um I did I

Time: 10781.88

did look it up oh good okay you'll tell

Time: 10783.56

us no no I I feel like there's a there's

Time: 10785.88

a footnote in Hidden potential and I'm

Time: 10787.399

trying to remember it comes from um

Time: 10789.68

kurer I think and um the cursor um

Time: 10794.439

originally came nope I don't want to do

Time: 10796.239

it I'm going to skip it I don't remember

Time: 10797.88

this is your Hipp your hippocampus is

Time: 10799.96

smart enough to have discarded that

Time: 10801.64

information and you have more important

Time: 10804.16

things to do forgive me for asking the

Time: 10805.76

question folks put in the comments on

Time: 10807.399

YouTube so good I have one more question

Time: 10810.76

about potential you have children

Time: 10813.359

correct three um and a lot of our

Time: 10815.439

listeners either are children or have

Time: 10818.16

children um and even for those that

Time: 10821.239

don't have children I'm curious with the

Time: 10825.439

vast array of knowledge that you now

Time: 10827.16

have about potential and the fact that

Time: 10829.04

kids are these incredible sponges right

Time: 10831.88

they I mean they they certainly

Time: 10834.399

experience discomfort we know that they

Time: 10837.279

are sponges we absolutely know that

Time: 10840.16

sometimes they're filters we try and

Time: 10841.56

teach them to be filters and and

Time: 10843.96

hopefully they are

Time: 10845.84

imperfectionists maybe there are kids

Time: 10847.52

that are just perfectionists by default

Time: 10849.279

but I have to imagine that they aren't

Time: 10851.319

because standards come about when we

Time: 10853.359

become aware of other people's

Time: 10854.479

performance

Time: 10855.92

right what sorts of messages do

Time: 10859.279

you recommend parents give their kids

Time: 10862.96

and what sorts of messages are you

Time: 10865.239

actually implementing that perhaps are

Time: 10866.8

different than you uh were prior to

Time: 10869.479

researching and writing your book on

Time: 10871.279

potential o interesting well the first

Time: 10873.8

thing I should say is um Becky Kennedy

Time: 10875.88

Dr Becky is my favorite source of

Time: 10878.6

insight on parenting and she's changed

Time: 10881.72

the way I think of the way I think about

Time: 10883.92

a lot of what I do with our kids um but

Time: 10888.52

my wife Allison is she her instincts

Time: 10892.2

about effective parenting are so

Time: 10895.16

sophisticated I feel like every day I

Time: 10897.56

learned something from watching her

Time: 10899.2

communicate with our kids and so I I

Time: 10901.92

came in thinking all right write this

Time: 10904

book about potential I'm not going to do

Time: 10905.72

a parenting chapter because I want

Time: 10907.52

everything to be relevant to

Time: 10909.359

parents and um sure enough there's a

Time: 10912.8

chapter that had nothing to do with

Time: 10913.92

parenting where I like oh I actually um

Time: 10917.239

I'm reading this research and there was

Time: 10919.439

a moment where I did something well and

Time: 10921.64

I didn't even mean to do it um and this

Time: 10923.72

is something that I think everyone um

Time: 10926.72

probably underutilizes I don't want

Time: 10928.6

actually that's an over statement I

Time: 10930.12

think a lot of people um don't

Time: 10931.64

appreciate the importance of of this

Time: 10933.279

approach to Parenting um and I am trying

Time: 10935.96

to do it more often so um quick quick

Time: 10938.8

story and then I I'll back up into the

Time: 10940.08

principes so I was uh I was getting

Time: 10942.279

ready to give my first T talk a number

Time: 10944.16

of years ago extremely nervous um I'm a

Time: 10948.08

shy introvert I was for a long time

Time: 10950.52

afraid of public speaking I remember in

Time: 10952.12

college literally shaking um to raise my

Time: 10955.2

hand uh being that nervous and now I'm

Time: 10958.359

supposed to get in the red circle um not

Time: 10960.64

my idea of comfort zone and I happen to

Time: 10964.239

mention to our oldest daughter that I

Time: 10966.399

was nervous and I asked her for advice

Time: 10968.96

on what I should do and she said I think

Time: 10972.239

I think at the time let's see she must

Time: 10974

have been think she was seven maybe I

Time: 10977.56

think seven uh maybe six anyway um she

Time: 10981.92

said uh look for a smiling face in the

Time: 10984.64

audience

Time: 10985.69

[Music]

Time: 10987.04

so it was it was one of those moments

Time: 10989.04

where I'm like oh that's such a good

Time: 10990.319

idea um why didn't I think of that like

Time: 10993.72

yes I can do that I know people who are

Time: 10995.12

going to be in the audience so I asked a

Time: 10996.88

couple of friends to sit in the front

Time: 10998.439

rows and I I locked eyes with a couple

Time: 11001.8

of them and my nerves went down a little

Time: 11004.6

bit so a couple weeks later um Joanna's

Time: 11009

getting ready to be in a school play and

Time: 11010.8

she's also shy and introverted and she's

Time: 11013.68

nervous and she asks us for

Time: 11015.68

advice and instead of telling her what

Time: 11017.96

to do I said well what did you suggest

Time: 11020.68

to me a few weeks ago and she she

Time: 11024.359

remembered and she said look for a

Time: 11026.52

smiling

Time: 11027.72

face and it it was it was one of like

Time: 11031.52

the It was one of the most moving

Time: 11032.8

moments um of my life like Allison and I

Time: 11036.6

got to the play and she looked at us and

Time: 11039

she beamed and I just um I I think what

Time: 11044.479

I learned from that experience

Time: 11046.56

was uh kids need to feel that they

Time: 11049.239

matter and most of us think about

Time: 11051.319

mattering as um you know showing kids

Time: 11054.319

that they're unconditionally loved and

Time: 11056.2

giving them the support they need but we

Time: 11058.88

forget that part of feeling that you

Time: 11060.279

matter is feeling that you make a

Time: 11061.76

difference so as a kid feeling like you

Time: 11064.2

have something to

Time: 11065.399

contribute as a parent asking my

Time: 11067.72

daughter for advice that boosted her

Time: 11070.359

confidence and I think that this is um

Time: 11073.88

I've come to call this the coach effect

Time: 11075.399

uh it's one of my favorite recent

Time: 11076.68

findings in Psychology that uh when when

Time: 11079.359

you're struggling with something um your

Time: 11081.88

instinct is to go to somebody else for

Time: 11083.399

advice and say I need guidance the

Time: 11085.52

problem is that keeps you in a passive

Time: 11087.04

frame of mind uh it makes you feel like

Time: 11089.12

you're dependent on others what you're

Time: 11091.64

better off doing is finding somebody

Time: 11093.04

else with a similar Challenge and giving

Time: 11095.16

them advice and what that does is it it

Time: 11097.52

shows you that you have something to

Time: 11098.72

give um it boosts your efficacy um the

Time: 11102

research on this by Lauren esis Winkler

Time: 11103.88

and colleagues uh is fascinating so

Time: 11106.16

people who give advice instead of

Time: 11107.88

receiving it um randomly assigned end up

Time: 11110.56

uh more motivated and more confident um

Time: 11113.479

and I think this is something every

Time: 11114.56

parent could do right whatever challenge

Time: 11116.6

you think your kid is going to face find

Time: 11118.399

a version of it that you're grappling

Time: 11119.88

with and seek their guidance on it and

Time: 11122.239

when they run into that same challenge

Time: 11124.12

they will have confidence that they can

Time: 11125.8

begin to figure it out on their own and

Time: 11127.52

you can be a coach in that process as

Time: 11128.96

opposed to just telling them what to do

Time: 11130.96

which they may feel like is not relevant

Time: 11133.399

or they may resist because they don't

Time: 11135.399

want to be told what to do by a parent

Time: 11137.76

so that is my favorite parenting lesson

Time: 11140.12

from hidden potential I love that and I

Time: 11142.76

love your statement that you know kids

Time: 11146.04

like adults want to matter you know that

Time: 11148.479

being you know we hear you know make

Time: 11150.16

them feel important but so often that's

Time: 11152.52

tied to Performance metrics and those

Time: 11155.04

performance metrics are the very things

Time: 11156.52

that are making them nervous or that are

Time: 11158.399

creating anxiety um I love it um are you

Time: 11162.56

taking additional kids for adoption

Time: 11164.16

because I'm I'm raising I'm raising I'm

Time: 11165.52

raising my hand I think there'd be a lot

Time: 11167.96

more developmental psychologists in the

Time: 11169.479

world if uh if we chose our careers

Time: 11172.2

later

Time: 11174.16

super interesting topic and by the way

Time: 11176.16

I'm very much looking forward to reading

Time: 11177.399

your book uh hidden potential um clearly

Time: 11180.6

I have a lot to resolve around that

Time: 11183.04

issue because um I still hear Miss Rolf

Time: 11186.08

in the in uh Middle School just telling

Time: 11188.6

me how much potential we have and that

Time: 11190.479

um and that I wasn't accessing mine oh

Time: 11192.359

no it's like a voice in the back of my

Time: 11193.84

head um all the time and um even though

Time: 11196.84

I feel very happy with um U many aspects

Time: 11200.04

of my life that there are a lot of

Time: 11201.359

things that I want to do that I haven't

Time: 11202.92

done and I think it's through uh you

Time: 11206

know limit limited uh what are they call

Time: 11208.359

limiting self- beliefs or things of that

Time: 11210.399

sort self limiting belief self-limiting

Time: 11211.72

beliefs there you go I can't even say

Time: 11213.56

say the phrase um yeah I do I do think

Time: 11215.72

all your fans are like yeah that Andrew

Time: 11217.68

huberman really hasn't he hasn't really

Time: 11220.6

tapped his potential at all he's

Time: 11222.12

squandering at all well keep in mind i'

Time: 11224.04

I've lived in a fairly narrow trench of

Time: 11226.12

of pursuit you know at 19 I got into

Time: 11228.359

this and I've been doing this like

Time: 11230.2

researching and teaching and doing res

Time: 11232.08

like for PR much all I've done for like

Time: 11234.56

almost you heading to 30 years so and

Time: 11236.76

you too you've been in this in this game

Time: 11238.399

for a long time and that's it's where we

Time: 11239.8

like to play but um but what I've

Time: 11242.12

learned from you today in addition to

Time: 11244.08

many other things is that um realizing

Time: 11246.56

our potential uh has so much to do with

Time: 11249.64

you know reaching outside we hear about

Time: 11251.479

our comfort zone but it's also reaching

Time: 11253.84

into our like deeper wishes and thoughts

Time: 11257.239

and uh I I keep coming back to this idea

Time: 11259.8

of the tag team podcast and and the

Time: 11261.88

origins of that in your mind it's like I

Time: 11263.68

never would have expected that but it

Time: 11265.439

also reveals something that sounds kind

Time: 11267.2

of like intrinsic to you like you maybe

Time: 11269.08

you like to see things play out uh the

Time: 11272.439

way you think they should be played out

Time: 11273.84

as opposed to the what's clearly a um

Time: 11276.359

intractable Battle of loggerheads least

Time: 11279

yes that is a that's a core value like I

Time: 11281.56

think there I can't imagine an

Time: 11284.16

unsolvable problem oh I love that man I

Time: 11287.68

want your I want your brain um listen

Time: 11291.56

Adam I want to thank thank you first of

Time: 11293.84

all for taking the time today to come

Time: 11295.479

talk to us certainly not just about your

Time: 11297.279

book but we covered an enormous range of

Time: 11299

topics I mean you talked to us about

Time: 11301.96

procrastination which is sort of the

Time: 11303.76

third rail of life for so many people uh

Time: 11306.76

creativity intrinsic extrinsic

Time: 11308.6

motivation and uh blind spots

Time: 11310.64

authenticity and and so much more but

Time: 11312.8

also I want to thank you for being such

Time: 11314.8

an an active teacher on social media in

Time: 11318.399

the classroom you still run a research

Time: 11321.12

program you're doing TED Talks you're

Time: 11323.319

writing multiple books you know you're

Time: 11325.319

absolute Phenom in terms of the the

Time: 11327.04

amount of information that you're

Time: 11328.399

putting out into the world and I must

Time: 11330.479

say I always always always learn from

Time: 11332.8

your posts your podcasts your books like

Time: 11335.2

there are certain people in the world

Time: 11336.319

they're exceedingly rare but you're one

Time: 11337.88

of them that when they open their mouth

Time: 11340

people learn and they learn valuable

Time: 11341.6

knowledge and it it's a it's a

Time: 11343.56

incredible thing um to be on the

Time: 11346.359

receiving end and so I just want to say

Time: 11348.2

uh on behalf of myself and everyone else

Time: 11350

thank you ever so much for what you do

Time: 11351.96

and um please keep going well thank you

Time: 11354.88

that that means a lot to me considering

Time: 11356.279

the source because I I the sentiments

Time: 11358.279

are mutual uh I think every time I

Time: 11362.439

whether it's reading one of your posts

Time: 11363.88

or seeing one of your reals um I my

Time: 11367.359

overwhelming thought is that is a master

Time: 11369

teacher and if I had been lucky enough

Time: 11371.12

to take one of your classes I might have

Time: 11373.72

gone more of the Neuroscience Direction

Time: 11376.319

well um and then failed but it would it

Time: 11379.239

it would have been interesting to learn

Time: 11380.399

more about at minimum and uh I just have

Time: 11382.2

tremendous admiration for your

Time: 11384.08

commitment to Making Science um

Time: 11386

interesting clear and useful to people

Time: 11388.319

thank you well I consider us on the on

Time: 11390.239

the same team in in that regard and um

Time: 11393.12

and I I probably will uh tap you about a

Time: 11396.12

potential collaboration it would be so

Time: 11397.96

much fun to sounds like a bless to work

Time: 11399.72

together um meanwhile again thank you

Time: 11402.8

for everything you're doing and um like

Time: 11405.76

I said just keep going and please come

Time: 11407.52

back again I feel like there are a

Time: 11409.319

thousand other topics we could talk

Time: 11410.68

about and that we should honored we'll

Time: 11413

try not to make you regret that thank

Time: 11415.52

you thank you for joining me for today's

Time: 11417.399

discussion with Dr Adam Grant if you're

Time: 11419.84

learning from Andor enjoying this

Time: 11421.439

podcast please subscribe to our YouTube

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Time: 11425.319

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Time: 11445.68

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Time: 11453.8

Lab podcast we discuss supplements while

Time: 11456.16

supplements aren't necessary for

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Time: 11459.279

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Time: 11466.399

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Time: 11469

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Time: 11526.6

today's discussion with Dr Adam Grant I

Time: 11528.8

hope you found the conversation to be as

Time: 11530.88

informative and practical as I

Time: 11533.359

and last but certainly not least thank

Time: 11535.64

you for your interest in

Time: 11536.64

[Music]

Time: 11540.96

science

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