Coleman Ruiz: Overcoming Physical & Emotional Challenges

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

[Music]

life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine my guest today is Coleman Ru

Coleman Ruiz is a former tier one Navy

SEAL special operator I think it's fair

to assume that most of you have never

heard of Coleman ruy before and in fact

it was part of his former life job

description to be largely covert such

that only his family and friends really

knew what he did for a living he is

however now living as a civilian and the

reason I invited Coleman on this podcast

was essentially to tell us his life

story which of course includes his time

in the SEAL Teams but includes so much

more that I'm certain is of value to

everyone today Coleman shares with you

his remarkable Journey from childhood

through his teenage years into the

military and some of the things that

happened during his time in the military

which then informed his postmilitary

civilian life and what it is to be a

father a husband and somebody who has

experienced tremendous loss at various

stages of his life as well as tremendous

Triumph indeed if ever there was a life

that could be framed within the context

of the so-called Heroes Journey it is

the life of Coleman Ruiz Coleman ruiz's

life is one that embodies focus and

pursuit family and friends and love all

the things that we think of in terms of

having a rich life but also one that

includes many unforeseen tragedies many

unforeseen challenges both internal and

external Coleman also shares with a rare

an extraordinary degree of vulnerability

the extent to which challenges in life

both external and internal have helped

shape him as a human being what follows

is a discussion that everyone male

female young or old and regardless of

position in life is sure to derive

tremendous benefit from before we begin

I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

is separate from my teaching and

research roles at Stanford it is however

part of my desire and effort to bring

zero cost to Consumer information about

science and science related tools to the

general public in keeping with that

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huberman and now for my conversation

with Coleman Ru Coleman Ru welcome thank

you very excited to see you it's great

to have you

here I'm guessing most people are

probably not familiar with Coleman ruy

so let's start at the

beginning where were you born what was

the context of your home

life and maybe let's get up to maybe

elementary school middle school and uh

whatever top Contour or deep details you

want to get into yeah we're all yours

okay I'll bring us up to seventh grade

because I would say that was probably

the first big inflection point in my

life I grew up in I was born in New

Orleans in a suburb called East New

Orleans East we call it and uh have

older sister two younger brothers my dad

was a

welder my mom was a dental assistant and

we had a couple of boxers in the

dogs and we had a very

modest very modest upbringing I won't

overd dramatize it but you know

admittedly you know sometimes we got

cheese from the lady across the street

who didn't want her welfare cheese and

it was one of those you know I could

tell my parents were fighting for every

nickel and but it was great I mean my

cousin grew up across the street from me

he's exactly my age we had that at least

some of my memory Andrew of it was it

was very very pleasant I learned later

that you forget a lot of things in your

childhood were unpleasant but my initial

memories when I started thinking about

this kind of thing and you know as you

and I have discussed getting

professional help and you start to learn

a little bit more about your childhood

but I remember it being very pleasant

you know we've you've told me about your

background and skateboarding and stuff

you know we skateboarded the

neighborhood BMX was a big thing when we

were kids it was very much a rat the

streets upbringing there was a park

behind the neighborhood we would cut

through the fence and go you know this

kind of thing I played football and

baseball and very normal in that regard

went to the neighborhood school and then

in sixth grade I went to what was my

high school but it went it went fifth

through 12th called Holy Cross High

School in the Lower Ninth Ward which

that spot is now vacated because the

school I went back after Hurricane

Katrina the whole school had to be moved

and I went there in seventh

grade and it was a hellacious start I

mean it was detention after detention

you know fist fight after fist fight and

damn near were you the instigator of

those fights probably some I definitely

fell in with the wrong crowd initially

in that sixth and seventh grade years

and um I wouldn't say it was so extreme

that like it was complete Mayhem but I

was definitely on you know problem

situation number whatever when my

parents were called in and it was kind

of the last straw type thing and um I

got cut from baseball my grades were

fine I was always a pretty good student

it was just teenager

Shenanigans and then I went out for

wrestling can can I just uh pause you

for a second so on the the violence part

um have a little bit of experience with

this but uh violence can come from

trying to protect others yeah uh

instigating uh it can come from the wild

just trying to you know see what it

feels like

experimentation and any number of other

things all the way to Pure sociopathy

which we know you you are not um and

weren't do you recall feeling something

inside that inspired this was it for

attention did it feel good

afterwards um yeah can you recall what

it was about I think it was the wildness

thing Andrew honestly it

wasn't I mean I believe I don't have a

malicious Bon my body like we all have

that in us obviously my profession later

in the military you know I was able to

activate that and I feel like I still

can and I was certainly able to in

sports which is why that seventh grade

year was really

pivotal but even now it's funny it's

even funny you ask about the wildness

because let me put it in movie terms

like one of my favorite movie scenes of

all time is in the movie The Town when

Ben Affleck walks in the room J rener is

the you know his his partner essentially

and he walks in the room and he says

we're going to hurt somebody I can't

tell you where and I can't tell you when

and he pauses and Jeremy rener takes

maybe a 3se second pause and he says

whose car are we taking he doesn't even

ask you know he's just they're just wild

and excited about doing something wild I

don't promote like going to hurt

somebody of course sure were you the

Affleck or the rener Affleck excuse me

or rener in that I

was I I feel like I was mostly the

rener put it this way if if you have

some good idea this

afternoon like let's go try this

I'm good I'm ready and I think it's just

exciting you know I I I hate rules I

hate being told what to do it's one of

the things that was so frustrating about

the military I the rules are in place

for a reason they're Written in Blood I

get all that but we're so constrained

sometimes I think that was just all

coming into fruition that seventh grade

year and I enjoyed going wild like it

was just fun and frankly we weren't

these fist fights and this trouble

wasn't like going to get some kid those

other kids wanted the wildness too you

know and so but the school didn't want

that and then I went out for wrestling

that year and I could put it all into

the wrestling room and it was

awesome before we talk about wrestling

and why it was so meaningful as a

channel for you

uh a little bit of neurobiology or else

I wouldn't be great uh Andrew huberman

uh there's a really interesting

phenomenon that one observes in both

animals and humans which is that

somewhere around adolescence MH when the

hormone surge begins but even before

that there's a phenomenon called

dispersal um it's very different than

fighting per se or sexual activity per

se it's a it's a literal dispersal from

one's home environment or an animals a

nest in which animals and humans and

we're animals after all start forging

new environments in in a very as you

point out chaotic way it's not organized

it's a little nuts and it um and

biologists and neurobiologists in

particular have observed changes in

neural circuitry that that drive this so

some of it's hormonal but a lot of it is

the brain taking all this input that one

has been exposed to sun earth food

others social interactions and starting

to essentially throw the different

Paints the different colors of paint

together and just trying things um some

kids are more uh prone to this than

others certainly has a hormonal

component boys and girls tend to do this

differently but they both Do It um and

psychologists and neurobiologists see

this as a fundamental shift in our

underlying circuitry so um just a little

bit of food for thought to put what you

just described in context with that said

tell us about wrestling I mean Andrew in

many ways like I said that was the first

inflection point it was

like immediate I mean immediate uptake

within a week I knew this was my thing

maybe maybe the first practice what do

you think it was so when I was younger

my aunt and uncle when I was like seven

years old they started taking me to road

races and I'm sure uh just running races

one mile and 5K races when I was really

small kid for you to run mhm to run with

them they were into the road racing

thing back in the day when it was brand

new you know the ' 80s um I'm 48 so I

was born in 75 so I was seven you know 8

years old at the

time and I was into like obviously can I

win this race I just the

pain of the effort was so

comfortable and then it's kind of silly

but like I won the P PT competition at

like the Boy Scouts thing in otan park

is physical yeah physical training

physical training so I won like the

whatever when I was young in Boy Scouts

or something and and then it just

snowballed then I was just like the

physical

activity still today is I mean if

someone said what are you really in love

with it's it's that and so when I walked

into the wrestling room it was so

extreme compared to anything else I had

ever done football baseball whatever I

never really liked any of those Sports I

played them all um but I didn't like him

and always my dad wrestled in high

school and college and um we were we

were you know always rough and tumble in

that regard and I haven't have a couple

of buddies in the teams you know who

obviously we're College wrestlers

there's a lot of wrestlers in the teams

and people would always joke about how

we're so handsy and you know our hands

are always on each other and that was

just a thing for us like I loved the

close contact I love the fight of it

what I really love about Combat Sports

cuz I boxed in high school between

wrestling

Seasons um was the respect

tell me more about that you just don't

have there are some of course like you

can see guys hyping it up and doing

their thing in UFC these days and that's

totally fine but for the most part if

you have fighters of any type like in a

setting when they don't have to do you

know the stuff for TV and

whatnot they respect each other because

and they respect the effort and because

you know what it takes and you know how

hard it is to face another man in the

middle of a mat with no equipment and

nowhere to run and no timeouts and no

one to tap in that's extreme you know

and it may not seem like high school

wrestling is Extreme but as you just

mentioned something about you know

development when you're 14 and you're

facing another like that's the first

time is someone trying to take your life

no they're not but it feels that way and

then you go and you put in all these

hours of training and you don't eat

during the week and you run stadiums or

you run levies and you know fireman's

carries and and all of it while you're

not eating and making weight and you're

in the sauna and it's just a very tough

thing to do Combat Sports and I love the

respect that it engenders between the

people who do it I think it was Sam

Sheridan who wrote A Fighter's heart uh

an excellent book and for anyone male or

female age who's interested in the human

Spirit uh I recommend a Fighter's heart

because it's about the different fight

sports but it's really about um the path

of

self-discovery that occurs in various

martial arts and as you said like

especially boxing is very gentlemanly

you touch gloves you start you know then

the you know the Bell goes off you go to

your corner like it's you know sometimes

people lose it bite off people's ears

and things like that but but for the

most part the sport is very um

structured um as you were doing this uh

what was happening with school um did it

help uh your academic studies did it

keep them more or less the same and how

did your family and your peer group view

what you were doing were you considered

strange for liking wrestling so much I

mean you're dieting right you're a young

male dieting for purpose of sport and

performance you're sitting in saunas

you're running in wrapped in plastic

bags all this like I mean uh a good

friend of ours who was also in the Ste

teams uh said one said to me he said you

know wrestlers are different and I think

he meant different in quotes yeah I

think that's true um I you know School

my grades immediately went up Andrew it

was like oh my gosh the discipline of

all of it my grades were always better

in wrestling season than out of

wrestling season interesting like when I

was cut loose out of the structure then

it wasn't good and and and you know

between seventh and eighth grade and all

that I didn't have any crazy Shenanigans

going on I wasn't going to get kicked

out of school whatever I was doing

normal stuff for the age but so the

fight stopped totally totally because I

could put it into I could put it into

the wrestling space you know and I think

I grew up obviously in New Orleans and I

think you know down there it's baseball

football basketball wrestling is not I

mean I was lucky to wrestle in college

at all because it wasn't like Iowa was

looking to recruit me you know they have

plenty of people to recruit and they

don't need any Louisiana wrestlers

although Daniel Cormier grew up like

north of the lake was four four years

younger I was telling this to somebody

we don't know each other I'd love to

meet him super impressive athlete we

heard that hey there's some kid up in

the NorthShore um I think is where he

grew up whooping everybody's ass and his

name's Daniel Cormier and then you know

obviously the rest is history but the

sport is not big in Louisiana which is

all to say that we were kind of a

unicorn we had was very odd at my high

school specifically we had one coach his

son either National runner up his name

was Willie Gatson Willie's Willie passed

away I think his son ended up at Iowa

State and within the last five or six

years was either a national champ or a

runner up Willie when I was in eth grade

Andrew Willie was at my high school like

I have no idea how Willie got and ended

up in New Orleans but we ended up with

this cluster of wrestlers at that time

with the right coaching and a few kids

were going to Junior College and coming

back and wrestling in college and coming

back and there were three or four guys I

remember specifically in eighth grade

because I started at least in the junior

high ranks I started to take off my

second year these guys would abuse me in

the wrestling room they were seniors in

high school I was 112 PBS or 132 pounds

my freshman year and they would just in

my eighth grade year and they would just

abuse me Define abuse in all the legal

normal wrestling ways like there's the

wrestling gets broken up obviously by

weights you got the heavy weights on one

end of the room the lightweights on the

other end of the room and the young kids

stay with the young kids for the most

part and a few of these guys would drag

me down to the varsity end and I would

wrestle with the middleweights and they

would beat the out of me

and eventually you get to the point

where you're like this I have I had

enough you know and that's when sort of

things started to turn but I think that

wrestlers are different and my peer

group one or two of my really good

friends wrestled but most of them played

other sports and

so but in in every sense of the word

life got better for me because of that

sport it changed my life so you wrestled

all through high school oh yeah yep at

at that point were you discovering

relationships

girls um were you partying were you a

drinker use drugs no drugs I mean it's

New Orleans right it's like one of the

things it was tough I'm glad I got out

of the city frankly because it was Party

Time Out outside the season yeah girls

Girlfriends normal stuff in that regard

lots of drinking lots of rat in the

streets you know in those days in the

90s um but you kept it inside the lane

lines sounds like no drunk driving no

arrest we did a little bit of that but

not nothing crazy in that regard I think

I understood the consequences and I

really cared about my career I really

wanted to wrestle in college my grades

were excellent my SAT scor is not so

much but

um I started winning really fast and you

know my last two years in high school I

was 89 and0 and I almost won my

sophomore year so I was runner up in the

state my sophomore year I always joke

with the with the boys I my all my boys

are way better athletes than I ever

could think about being son yeah yeah

and

um but in eth grade I made varsity and

it was like was eighth grade yeah and I

lost like 75% of the matches you know

but you just grinded out and it's how I

got into the Naval Academy which is a

whole another story but so let's talk

about that so you finished finished high

school mhm uh you head to the Naval

Academy why the Naval Academy there's

actually a crazy story behind this which

maybe we Circle back to but

um the

summer gosh I had forgotten that this

started in 7th grade too the summer

between my seventh and eighth grade year

my grandfather was

too young to joined the Navy and he

wanted to go to the Naval Academy um

during World War II and he lied to the

recruiter and got into the merchant

marines his I'm pretty sure first cousin

my uncle and my cousins are like first

cousins once REM removed my Uncle Jim

THL was at a family reunion in

Mississippi which we were at and he

didn't mention to Naval Academy family

reunion ends they all go home and he

starts sending me Naval Academy

paraphernalia I knew nothing about the

military

and I just thought about it you know and

he would send me stuff you know you

didn't we didn't have the internet right

you sending these booklets and you don't

like Authority no so I I've not been in

the military but I've done some work

with yall and um there's a there's a lot

of uh hierarchy and Authority yeah

that's true it it the truth and was like

it was just it just seemed exciting I

wasn't really thinking about the

implications as 18-year-olds you know it

looked very exciting to me and having

gotten some professional help in the

intervening years what I really think

was a big part of it was my parents got

divorced my senior year in high school

and the family unit just blew up right

and

so it also represented an escape you

know get out and go get your life out of

the New Orleans and just go just go do

something were you a part of that uh

that obviously you were a part of the

family that got divorced was it chaotic

was it uh controlled you and I are the

exact same age we're both 48 born in 75

um back then it was a lot less common

for um people being they called them

broken homes back then yeah you know um

nowadays I don't think they call that

everyone just cites the statistic that

you know more than half of marriages end

in in divorce as if it perhaps to

normalize it um but that's more than

half um do you recall feeling um

distraught about that or was it just

kind of the natural consequence of

something you had observed a long time

like oh that kind of makes sense that no

it was a shock to me it wasn't shock to

my older

sister

um I just remember com this was the

thought at the time I this is like

seared in my brain this has nothing to

do with

me that wasn't like some sophisticated

view it was mostly this I'm not

dealing with this I have my own life

they're going to have to do what they're

going to do meaning my parents I'm

getting the hell out of here not a bad

mindset for a kid at that stage if it

had been four years younger that might

not be the the best mindset but as

you're heading off to college that's

reasonably healthy mindset as opposed to

getting am meshed in the what happened

in and this and that can I ask you at at

that stage you're 17 18 years old at

that point um were you journaling at

that point no no no journaling no

introspective work zero no school

psychologist no no thinking about or

talking about your feelings it's

wrestling Naval Academy social things

School SATs like like very standard

we're almost like talking like a

superficial list of like what happens at

the end of high school in 1992 Andrew

it's a the the word superficial and I

carried this forward for years which I'm

sure we'll talk about here in a

second those binary Focus

areas like I was literally just going

after them at Full

Steam Stronger Faster more intensity

with zero introspection no excavation of

the of the psychology of anything just

full steam ahead like let's go no

meditation no breath work

zero which was not adaptive in the long

run and we we'll get to uh how that

played out in the long run but

nonetheless um you got into the Naval

Academy well didn't first okay so I

applied I I get you know my uncle's

doing all this stuff anyway I applied

and I didn't I still have the letter the

thanks but no thanks you know you're not

qualified how'd that hit you

at the time it hit me kind of like

everything I did when that age when it

didn't work out it admittedly Andrew it

was it was

like there's got to be a way around this

like has to work out but it but it

feels terrible right like it you have a

moment of what do we

do

and my kids have heard the story a

million times my wife was a blue chip

swimming recruit for a navy and so she

was into the Naval Academy when she was

at the beginning of her senior year of

high school right what's a blue chip I I

mean in my understanding a blue chip is

like you are at the very top of the list

and the coaches put you straight into

the admission cycle saying nobody else

gets in until this person does so they

wanted her they didn't want you I Not

only was she a blue chip and I was and I

got the no

um I guess well the wrestling coach

called me a couple of weeks after my no

which is now in may I'm about to

graduate from high school I'm not

accepted anywhere you only applied one

place actually to which you may bur bust

out laughing when I tell you what the

other one is because no internet I got a

mailer in a pamplet from Stanford the

wrestling coach I didn't know what

Stanford was I had no idea that the

college was even prestigious I didn't

know they had a wrestling team I filled

out the application and wrote the letter

thing and I sent it into Stanford and of

course never heard back from them but I

applied to two places Stanford and the

US Naval Academy well for those that

follow wrestling I'm I get into either

right uh that's a great story and I'll

just briefly mention that a few years

ago there almost wasn't a wrestling team

at Stanford they uh had plans to cut the

wrestling team despite having a NCAA

champion at Stanford but you know the

power of people Gathering and and

petitioning works and um wrestling and a

few other sports that were being cut

from the curriculum um were spared it's

amazing yeah rescued so happy to see

that yeah so that so it Stanford does

have a wrestling team so the coach the

coach back to like how I ended up

getting in I appreciated my my college

coach called and he said there I'm

recruiting I have one more spot at the

prep school which is in Newport Rhode

Island I'm recruiting another kid from

Pennsylvania if he takes that spot then

I don't have anything

left and we were exploring going to prep

school and stuff like that oblique ways

to get in and he called me sometime in

May like right around graduation and

said can you be in Newport in July that

kid went to I think he went to Lehi

and I I went to the prep school so

Newport Rhode Island yeah in Newport for

a year and there it's a nice place yeah

it's great yeah and so you wrestle for I

mean you do school you know you're

you're in West Point has a prep school

and Colorado Springs has a prep school

and so we joke that my wife was first

person in our class accepted and I was

last which is highly possible

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huberman so you're in Newport does that

have a a portal to the naval Academy

yeah if you graduate prep school you're

you're straight into the Naval Academy

like they fully expect you to be there

the next year when junior year rolled

around M um and Senior rolled around of

high school didn't anyone pull you aside

and say Hey you might want to like apply

to a few other

places uh you might want to consider

what you do if this doesn't work out

what did they assume you were going to

do they just head into the City of New

Orleans and um bus

tables zero guidance Andrew really like

from my high school and I think

think the ecosystem I was in like people

just didn't really know how to do that

you know how to apply to schools I mean

my parents obviously helped when I

applied to the Naval Academy but when I

when I look at the system that kids go

through now to go you know their process

to find the best college

experience I never had one conversation

with a guidance counselor about what to

do I just didn't I mean I just got very

lucky a few people my

my high school wrestling coach

intervened I think at some point and

called the Naval Academy to speak to the

coach to say you should give this kid a

chance but he didn't they didn't know

who he was you know I'm so lucky and so

fortunate that I ended up where I ended

up it's it's why I took it so seriously

like the focus with which I applied my

time in high school the I took that to

10x degree when I got to Newport because

I knew this was my chance

there's something magical to that I can

relate to that so uh so you're in

Newport yeah and describe what a day was

like is it all wrestling you're taking

general education classes like one does

in the in the first two years of

University yep so the way the way the

prep school is set up for the Naval

Academy is they're basically teaching

you the first semester of the Naval

Academy so you take calculus physics

chemistry I think you take an English

class Etc and um you go through like a

pretty hellacious first couple of weeks

cuz you're away from the flag pole where

no one can hear you scream you know

you're up in Newport you're not in

Annapolis where Everyone's Watching and

you do a couple hellacious weeks for an

18-year-old who's never been in the

military before so you're in the

military technically if you go to this

you're actually enlisted in the Navy

okay so they they own you to some extent

yeah yeah yeah they do and then you do

you're wearing uniforms you're jogging

in the morning you're doing salutes and

marching Yep bugling they're doing Taps

in the evening yep all of it got it yep

and you live there's 300 people at the

prep school it's distributed basically

amongst folks coming from the fleet so

guys who did four five years in the

military somewhere and they're coming

into the Naval Academy from the fleet

and then athletes and then sort of a

mixture of other folks who need a little

extra school right and so and then you

do a full school year you're competing

it's basically a red shirt year that's

not a red shirt year I competed up and

down the East Coast against you know all

the other prep schools and you finish

that year in May and then you know

you're done with the prep the prep year

is fine it's a little bit of a a shock

when you're 18 but it's fine always been

curious about these military schools and

the people that go to them and what

happens to people there uh did you have

any sense of patriotism prior to

arriving at this prep school and did

that sense of patriotism you know I'm

talking like love of country uh

understanding the the history of our

country and its position in the in the

international landscape are you thinking

about that stuff are they feed you that

or is it really like wrestling get

through the March shower up go to the

next thing is it is it very like plug

and- chug no no the the feeding of and I

really appreciated this the feeding of

those Concepts starts when you get

there but I was deer in the headlights

and like I didn't think about my life in

this way at all when I was headed there

I mean what what you get very early

because the

school very quickly starts to bring

really high level accomplished people

Colonels Admirals whatever generals to

expose you to this people I do remember

sitting there that within

weeks like this is way bigger than I

thought it was in terms

of how serious this situation is you

know um and how serious this ecosystem

of people take this because I didn't

have my dad wasn't an admiral he was a

welder in New Orleans you know I didn't

understand the bigness of of it one of

the reasons I asked this is that various

times throughout my life I've had this

experience of like seeing people close

to me doing incredible work you know

like when I was a post talk at Stanford

I had Nobel Prize was given that one

week to the guy next door to me yeah so

you see him in the morning and like

you're hearing it on the radio and uh

obviously I didn't have that kind of um

stature or talent in science I think I'm

a good scientist but um good enough to

you know get tenure at Stanford but then

there there are levels within the game

yeah but there is something very special

to the experience of having people close

to you physically and in the same

ecosystem as you described it achieving

amazing things I also saw this in

skateboarding I mean there were a lot of

uh let's just say uh failures uh to uh

integrate with normal life but there

were also some guys that I grew up with

who started companies and set world

records and you know had their Pro

Models and then if you zoom out from

that and you go wait I'm in this

community it changes one's self viw

about what's possible so I think that's

what you're describing and I think it's

such an important thing for people to

experience at some point even if the

goal isn't to be at kind of world scale

you know for people to realize that the

town they grew up and the family they

grew up in that context can expand yes

and so do you recall being at this prep

school and kind of third personing

yourself and thinking like well I'm

Coleman Ruiz I'm from New Orleans I went

from this to this to this the way you've

been describing it and I'm here and

they're like I'm around some incredibly

impressive people and I'm here like once

you make that recognition that you're

there a whole bunch of things can open

up no I actually came at it from the

opposite way and this has been a hard

thing for me my whole life and I have to

watch out for this

perspective is I felt like every day I

had to wake up and earn my place there I

was never good enough for myself

ever so next day up is a restart to

prove myself again on whatever standard

I'm picking that day right looking back

on it I

realized it was somewhat arbitrary

because it was just day by day I didn't

think I'm Coleman Ru as I made it here

look I'm part of this e i I was

afraid like Mike Tyson talks about being

afraid every time I was afraid every day

and I fought

for like a position in this place every

day now that was adaptive in some

regards right mm very because to me it

was let's go like today's another new

day and it's 100% Allin full go I hope

everybody's ready did you ever recall

falling asleep at night and thinking

like well like I had a good day I had a

good day or or I'm scared you know

they're going to discover I can't keep

up or I can't keep up all the time so a

lot of fear I mean yeah yeah a lot of

fear all the time and and some of it I

do I I I genuinely know and believe

Andrew that it was well-intentioned like

I wanted to do a good job for the group

whatever group I was in my platoon my

squad in the case of the prep school you

know that first

experience I I mean I I was talking

about this with with my wife the other

day just because stories come up you

know we had a 25th reunion at the Naval

Academy and this kind of thing and um I

was a really good runner for my group in

high school like the people I was around

I ran cross country when I was young and

anyway I did I suppose I'm going the

other I I sort of did have some level of

confidence in my ability then I got

there and like all these college cross

country Runners are like my son is now

just crushing me and I think sadly

because it was just sort of in me that

fed my fear like I thought I was

better than this clearly I suck I have

to get to their level so um I did have a

very well-intentioned excitement around

just do a good job with the people

you're around there's something fun to

that and wild you know as we spoke about

um but I was operating out a fear for

decades but there was a I need to get to

their level statement in there it wasn't

I can't keep up I better find a

different path no no no no I knew I

could I knew I could get to their level

with enough work you know was that

something that your your father or your

mother or both had instilled in you that

for sure MH yeah and my high school

wrestling coach was

um let's call it maybe from the old

school mhm if you worked hard enough you

could you could you could get there you

know so this is the essence of growth

mindset long before Carol D coined the

the phrase growth mindset yeah yet when

I first read a book I'm like don't

people teach us this when we were

kids yeah you know well some of us got

it some of us didn't and it can be very

context dependent right I think that's

one of the more important often

overlooked aspects of Carol's work and

Ali crumb's work is that we can develop

growth mindset in one domain of life but

then another domain of life we get you

know kicked in the teeth once and we're

like I can't do that there's a carve out

where I can't function some people do

that some people don't and um and we

don't understand enough about it um to

understand you know whether or not it's

a global circuit you know and it's

there's a lot of context but okay so

you're you're hanging in there at least

you're surrounded by some very

impressive people there's a lot of

structure

so we're a long way from the pre-

wrestling days when yeah this is the

opposite of chaos totally this is

structure yeah you told what to do every

five minutes more or less and this is um

scary feelings fear is a scary feeling

uh but you're channeling it and you said

the unit of the day became important

it's like what can I do today yes you're

not thinking about the week you're not

thinking about the season you're not

thinking about becoming some war hero

down the line you're just 24 hours and

do the next day yeah how was your

selfcare at that point or is that built

into the system it's not built into the

system and it was Zero I mean it really

was Andrew like it was the old

school we were not doing anything

sophisticated back

then I mean there was no we

stretched and in the grand scheme of

things is going to sound weird because

there still is a lot of you know primal

nature to Combat Sports but in the grand

scheme of things we were probably on the

upper end of sophisticated like

wrestlers jump rope they stretch they do

aerobics you know um been in auna since

1993 you know it's like not purposeful

not for to cut weight in a garbage bag

but there is some level

of some level of balancing out your

training you know wrestlers like to swim

in the like during the season because

you're getting out of that room like you

end up accidentally doing some of these

things but there was no selfcare so you

eventually go to the Naval Academy MH 94

the actual Naval Academy and that's

where you met your wife yep in '96 my

sophomore year so when you get there

what what's different than the prep

school first of all

it's big in the macro not just

geographically big or footprint square

footage wise it's big the concept is Big

you know

like the superintendent of the school is

a three star admiral you hear about his

career you know you're 19 years old you

meet so there's

two incredibly important people in my

life at in those early years at the

Naval

Academy a guy named Doug zbec who's dead

now who most people of my service time

will know who he is

um when I was on my recruiting trip to

the Naval Academy and I was in high

school this is complete accident Doug

was a sophomore we call him youngsters

at the Naval Academy he was a sophomore

and we're the same weight class so coach

matched us up because it was my

recruiting visit and my first this is

back to being wild literally my first

night on the grounds of the Naval

Academy I'm sleeping on Doug zek's floor

of his of his room with his other two

roommates

and sometime around 3: or 4

a.m. I get woken up it's like a bomb

goes off there's a bom didn't go off but

there's 12 other gorillas in the room

all wrestlers maybe one or two other

guys and Doug is hustling I don't know

any of these people Andrew like I just

met Doug the previous evening we just

flew into

town he wakes me up he's hustling me to

get my shoes

on again I'm just this High School kid

and then within 2 to 3 minutes all 15 of

these gorillas bolt out of the room and

Doug grabs me and I'm just following

them right so we race out of boft Hall

it's maybe 4 in the morning 3:30 4 in

the morning we race out of boft Hall the

barracks we run across the parking lot

into Lun Hall in Lun Hall is the

swimming facility and the wrestling

room that's it that's the only thing

that's in there right the doors we run

up to Lun Hall the doors of Jun Hall are

locked with a chain on the outside and

one of our Doug pulls on the Chain so

that the do open enough at the top that

the 142 pounder can climb up and like

get inside that little Gap in the doors

and run over and open one of the doors

that isn't chained this is what you'll

later do professionally I still have

exactly and what I frankly did as a kid

like back in the day and so I'm

terrified cuz I don't know what's coming

you know and so you don't bother to ask

what are we doing there's no time

there's just no time like these guys are

to me they're full-blown war heroes

they're not they're college kids but I'm

17 they're 21 all these wrestlers I'm

hoping I'm going to come here and be

their teammate you know we run into Lun

Hall go to the Second Story we climb up

the utility ladder where Public Works

goes to get in the ceiling

above the white foamy ceiling tile

things so we're now on the catwalk where

the HVAC guys would be working

and I'm starting to get a sense of

what's

coming we go a couple feet down the

catwalk everyone

stops someone reaches over the catwalk

and pulls one chalky ceiling tile out so

now you can look over the edge of the

catwalk and see right through the

ceiling into the diving well remember

the diving well has a 10 meter platform

and then we're another I don't want to

OV exaggerate this we have to be another

20 feet into the ceiling so you're above

the diving board what most people we're

way above the diving board okay we're 5T

above the ceiling which is 20t above the

10 meter got it right and so um and now

I've realize what's happening and two or

three wrestlers they sort you climb over

the catwalk get you know backwards get

your hands all the way down and then

very lower yourself in a reverse pullup

so you

don't kick the SE in

tile and three or four guys go and you

can hear them hit the water after what

is a terrifyingly long time when you're

you know my age and SC in the dark oh

yeah no one's supposed to be in there

um and then one of the guys looks over

when you're a recruit you're called a

drag they're like drag you're up and I'm

lowering myself Andrew and I kick the

adjacent ceiling tile and it hits the

dive tank and it turns into pancake

batter and goes to the bottom of the

pool oh my and one of my teammates is

like you

one of my future teammates

you know he's going nuts I drop I

live and this is back to

Doug I come up Doug clearly goes behind

me but I don't hear

him and one or two guys are going nuts

you high school piece of like

you're going to go down to the 15 ft and

pick it all up and Doug comes up and he

just blasts

everybody he's our

responsibility this is not his fault we

brought him here like just totally backs

me

up and then the rest of the visit

happens I end up there Dougs no senior

I'm a

freshman

and he's just the legend he was all

American and to this day Andrew you need

to hear this loud and clear like for all

the people you and I both know and the

people I've been around no other human

in my life have I met with his physical

and mental toughness not even close the

guy was born in the wrong century is the

way I describe

him and he

was like my mentor and he was my guy you

know and uh he was killed in'

07 Marine mhm yeah we we'll talk about

Doug you've written about him yeah he's

unbelievable I feel like I know him a

little bit thanks to you we'll get

around to that uh for sure I think

people are getting a sense of where

we're headed so that's the that to

answer your question about like that the

bigness of the Naval Academy that's how

it started for me like everything was

just on steroids you know all these kind

of

people I get the impression at least up

until now that you're kind of just you

just go with what's right in front of

you 100% like there there isn't a lot of

pause and reflect although your R your

Rudder is not halfhazard it's not random

no well yeah I can say right now you and

I as similar as I you know we may be in

certain respects like we're very

different in this way like there isn't a

there isn't like a foraging you know in

biology we call them random walks you

know a lot a lot of organization that

comes out of biology is through random

Walks Like animal or human like finds a

node and moves and and life is like that

Steve Jobs talked about not being able

to connect the dots except retrospect

and and I subscrib to that and his life

was a bit of a random walk but that we

Guided by some Central beam of of

uniqueness uh Robert Green was when he

was on the podcast talks about that your

beam is is um more narrow it seems

narrow and the propeller behind that

beam is uh high RPM yes that's very

clear and what I'm not hearing here is

like um yeah you know at one point I

paused and wondered whether or not I

wanted to you know be here wrestling in

the Naval Academy or or even like what I

might do when I get out am I going to

work for an investment firm what am I

going to do you're re Your Horizon it

seems to be about 24 hours at that point

yeah I hope not anymore but at that

point at that at that point I'm no

psychologist but but um but it just

seems like you're uh it's not like

you're playing checkers but you're

you're optimizing for a fairly um short

Horizon there's no question that's right

and the other part that was probably the

most important to me Andrew was the the

person or the group mhm because this is

going to sound very arrogant but when I

got to I'm going to this prep school I'm

going to Naval Academy I think on day

one I'm going to literally meet the

cream of the crop in the country and

that was not the case and it was not the

case at the Naval Academy and frankly it

wasn't the case in the teams either like

I'm not saying I'm better than anybody

but I thought every single person when I

got to the Naval Academy was going to

entirely focused on whatever our mission

was and I didn't even know what my

mission was there right I just knew I

was going to be told what Wright looks

like and Doug not only did I meet him in

high school and have the the luck of

having him as a teammate and a mentor

for me he is what Wright looked like so

a focused beam and a propeller running

at high RPM with the right you know

quote unquote swim buddy so to speak was

literally all I cared about that was it

everything else was White Noise were

there other interests at the time I mean

presumably you listen to music every

once in a while but I mean I would

whatever but didn't fall in love with it

didn't feel the need to pursue anything

else learn an instrument do anything

else it was it was it was a that was it

it was that that narrow beam

so you met your wife in 96 sophomore

year at the Naval Academy yep uh and was

she as driven is she as driven I mean

she's obviously a very talented swimmer

presumably works hard as well um it's

kind of interesting I didn't um realize

until a few years ago that the both of

you were you know military yeah she

definitely just different different

driven way smarter way

more you know it's obviously not one to

one for men and women but way more

successful

by gradient standards she's in the Navy

Hall of Fame she was Patriot League

swimming champ she was on Junior

National trath on team when she was 20 I

think

um really talented in every regard um

ninth in our class I think first female

graduate number one female graduate our

class tell me more about that how's it

how's that work you have a I don't even

know exactly how the grading first of

all her grades are her academic success

is just

remarkable and then you get a military

grade and you get a physical grade not

for your Athletics I don't think but

it's like your PR RT scores which is

your physical Readiness test all this

military stuff you do you get this other

cluster of a grade that goes along with

your academic

grades and she was number nine in the

class and the first female graduate

based on that cluster of

grading and I mean she's an amazing

person was her success in academics and

swimming was that part of what Drew you

to her uh no no no and she was just nice

and you know I I didn't really care

about the achievement it doesn't it

certainly sounds like I care about

achievement because of the narrow Focus

but it it wasn't really that you know

she was just really normal in a group of

a lot of abnormal people frankly like

there's some Cooks at these schools you

know um and I'm probably in that

category I don't know but everybody's

just really different there you have

this athlete group you have I mean you

know Andrew I mean you you went to

Stanford I mean some of the you know the

group of Naval Academy and West Point

like these schools who produce like the

road scholar level person like that

cluster of group like at Navy I remember

they're super impressive I mean and then

there's the rest of us like doing our

best getting pretty good grades and

stuff but there's very different groups

inside you know the school yeah yeah I

looked at some of my colleagues like a

former guest on this podcast Ali crumb

you know she's incredible scientist was

a division one gymnast

and uh is a licensed clinical

psychologist also maintains a a healthy

relationship with with children in the

home like I just go who are these people

you know it's I mean you know every once

in a while we talk about the the person

with the quote unquote extra gear you

know like some people just seem to have

that extra gear and I don't want to take

anything away from Ally or anyone else's

um incredible work ethic that goes with

what people perceive as an extra gear

who knows if they have an extra gear or

not uh I always just want to know what

their parents did yeah and it out

Allie's parents I hope I have this right

uh but recollection of this is that um

her mother ran a theater group and her

father was a martial arts teacher okay

so you know there's nothing that speaks

to academics per se and and I find that

really important to me and to highlight

because I think people hearing this

conversation and hear about people like

alleys and other examples like that you

think oh yeah you got to come from an

academic family to end up at a at a top

tier institution or or to win a Nobel

Prize in fact there there are so many

exceptions to that or you have to um be

a natural athlete um or be born with

some some genetic gift or or or some

extra gear as it were in order to

succeed but I think so much of success

is the thing that you seem to

operationalize really quickly which is

um to really focus on that 24-hour

Horizon and where one has seen failure

to just keep going I mean a big part of

it is just to keep going but also to

make make sure that you're continuing to

go um in a direction that is adaptive

and functional because imagine had you

not found wrestling and you had gotten

into some you know some group where the

the the metrics of success were around

you know dealing weed or doing something

which back then was highly illegal now

is very varying levels of legality but

you know where that where the points

came back for effort in domains of life

that could take you down into the gutter

and and you see this so I'm I'm

convinced that the work ethic is is the

fundamental piece but there has to be

that Rudder and your Rudder has to be

pointed in the right direction so along

those lines you meet Bridget yeah and

was it instantaneous no we kind of had a

friendship first I felt like at least

we've discussed this I mean I

instantaneously enjoyed her company so I

met Bridget in February of sophomore

year I was on the campus of Naval

Academy is called the yard I was on the

yard all winter because the wrestling

season is in the shittiest time ever

right it crosses over the holidays you

have to make weight during Thanksgiving

you have to make weight during

Christmas we were on campus on the

yard and it was easily waste deep snow

and we were doing two a day practices

everybody else is home on

vacation that winter I considered

leaving and thank goodness for no cell

phones and stuff because I didn't know

how to leave I was like you consider

leaving like leaving the ne leaving the

I was just but it didn't have anything

to do with the na Academy really it had

everything to do with that moment I was

miserable like I was making I wrestled

190 my freshman year and Doug

graduated he was the 177 pounder so

sophomore yard dropped into his spot I

went down to

177 fighting weight for me is like

193 but you know back then Andrew

lifting a lot I was 210 to 215 in the

off season and I cut to 177 sophomore

year and I was just really miserable and

um if it was easy to leave I probably

would have and then I met Bridget in

February and I was like it I'll

stay she's better than this place

anyway having followed my high school

girlfriend off to college and not gone

to college when I got there I just lived

in the parking lot outside her dorm room

I I can relate you know there's a uh I

probably wouldn't be sitting here today

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huberman so at what point did you decide

you wanted to aim for the SEAL Teams is

a great question I mean things you know

as compared

to at a Gunnery Sergeant in the Marine

Corp at Prep School who I thought these

are back to the first people you meet in

this environment gunny Flynn and he was

great like he was super hard on us but I

obviously kind of love that and I

thought I was going to go into the

Marine Corps and Doug wanted to go into

the Marine Core I'm a freshman at the

Naval Academy he's my wrestling partner

Doug could literally tell me to jump off

of a building his as long as he came

with me I'd do it no problem and enjoy

it all the way down Doug was going into

the Marine Corps I thought I was going

to go into the Marine Corps and I did a

summer training in quanico between

freshman and sophomore year and it was

okay it was good but I didn't love it

and I met a couple other guys who were

going to compete for spots in the SEAL

Teams who were years ahead of me but to

answer your question junior year you get

you can sign up and say I want to start

competing for a Billet we had 16 spots

in my class I think there's 32 spots

these

days you know the force has grown since

911 obviously and

um and I I want to say maybe 150 or so

people they put you through this weekend

overnight two-day hell two-day things at

Navy some people quit I don't know how

many go to what we used to call Mini

buds in the summer between Junior and

Senior year you go out to Coronado and

buds instructors they still have it it's

called something

different um you spend two weeks at the

buds compound and they run you through a

mini program and so find buds for the

some some folks listening to this won't

know won't know the acronym the acronym

is basic underwater demolition seal

school that's our school in Coronado

screen process for who gets in who

doesn't yeah and when you're at when

you're at the Naval Academy it's

obviously different than guys coming

into the listed ranks you have this pool

of people 150ish guys say they want to

go sometime junior year they run you

through this weekend pretty hard at

Navy because we have seals station at

the Naval Academy and then I'm just

going to guess that goes from 150 to 80

maybe 80 guys go to the summer program

in Coronado when you're still you know a

midshipman at the Naval

Academy I've never maybe people have

quit mini buds I don't know but I don't

know if I really saw anybody quit the

two weeks we're out in Coronado and then

you get you know graded on your

performance and stuff and then you come

back for senior year and you go through

a series of interviews with a bunch of

seals Who come out and do interviews and

you don't really know what you're

doing and then they select down I don't

want to again overdo it but it's

probably seven I don't know maybe 50 or

60 qualified guys they select you down

to

16 and so to answer your question about

when I got interested was when I knew I

didn't want to go in the Marine Corps I

never ever had the Top Gun Fever thing I

wasn't interested in flying

I just wasn't interested in anything

else but something super

physical and that seemed like the best

the next best thing and because I grew

up in New Orleans and spent a lot of

time in the water that wasn't

intimidating that screens a lot of

people out

obviously yeah and got selected in the

group of 16

and was at buds after graduation you

know a couple months after

graduation there's been a lot put out

into the world around buds you know

people have seen the log carrying and

boat carrying and the screaming and the

set set screaming of the the uh

instructors and the and the running and

the you know clasped arms in the in the

water and hell week no sleep and on and

on it's obviously tough it it calls 85%

of the people that go out there thinking

that they are the the absolute last

person who would ever quit ring the bell

so to speak

um you obviously got through uh a while

back you mentioned to me three things

that you think predict whether or not

somebody's going to get through Buds and

um before you tell us what these are I

just will just uh tell people that yes

of course you made it through buds

successfully and went into the teams um

very successful career in the teams but

you've also been a buds instructor so

you've been on the on the um on the

other side of the equation too what are

those three things yeah this was as you

know this was very anecdotal but it

lined

up we when I was back there in ' 05 as

an instructor Andrew I feel like we're

not scientists right but I feel like we

tried every

correlating data pull that we could pull

from pull-ups to runtimes to you name it

to regions of the country that people

grow up near

water at least back then nothing

correlated and so I was a first phase

OIC officer in charge and so our team in

first phase we can talk about what that

is in detail if you want to but first

phase isn't charge of hell week you know

hell week's in the first two months of

training and a couple of the guys said

all this about this can get you

through that can get you through I

bet that every single person we talk to

out here on the grinder has one of these

three things they were a varsity athlete

in high school or college their parents

are divorced or they got suspended from

school I guarantee it and we would walk

around the grinder and ask and I

mean you know this isn't going to pass

it independent review board but it's got

to be 90 to 95% so that's incredible

because you know so much has been made

of buds and hell week and just to just

fill in a few of the blanks for those

that aren't familiar hell week is what

it's uh five nights no sleep you get an

hour a couple minutes on on one day but

you're basically in constant movement

for about a week are and that's when

most people voluntarily ring the bell

and most of them do it before Wednesday

okay and I know it's got chaotic

components going off blast it's got hard

work boring components people the the

people trying to make it through have no

sense of how long a run is going to last

or what's going to happen and you hear

all this stuff like okay you just don't

quit or you just go meal to meal but

what you just described is really

interesting uh let's break those three

things down because um playing a varc

sport has certain elements

um having divorced parents has certain

elements and getting sus spended in

school has certain

elements let's start

with divorced parents first because

Varsity Sport I think we can probably

just quickly say okay there's structure

you have to listen to somebody you have

to be able to push yourself you have to

have some level of physical competence

coachable mental competence work with

others so there's something there right

um and you presumably have to go through

Junior varc to get there so there's some

oomph and required um in any event um

but the divorce parents pieces is was

surprising to me still is what you have

divorced parents so do I divorces occur

for any number of different reasons what

in the world do you think is the uh the

consequence of or the of a divorced

household that would predict so well at

least in this back of the envelope

measurement that you made but as an

instructor that people would get through

this excruciatingly difficult period of

time for me it was one

thing

specifically I felt like I was

alone if I didn't have the

team so I don't know what it would be

for other people but I was like if I

don't have this

team then what team do I

have so I'm not leaving you could crank

up the cold and misery as high as you

want but I'm not leaving yeah that hits

deep um I didn't do buds I didn't even

know what the Seal team was were but I

certainly know the the feeling of um

looking outside of the household for uh

a sense of family and belonging and the

feeling that like I'd much rather like

from almost from a place of Joy like I'd

much rather die for these people

hopefully not with these people but much

rather die trying to save others and to

do well in that than to quit yeah yeah

that's that's a powerful thing that you

just shine light on I don't think of the

hundreds of interviews with Team guys

ex- Team guys buds instructors Etc that

are out there I don't think anyone's

ever highlighted that I don't think I

was aware of it then Andrew but I just

you know again it's in it's in

retrospect well the retrospect is in

large part what we're here for um to go

a little deeper on that I think that a

lot of people have challenging homes the

parents aren't necessarily divorced and

we're talk Talking of course about um

trying to understand the the human

Spirit uh certainly not accomplishments

per se but the human spirit so I think

that a lot of people especially nowadays

they look to their home life and if you

know God willing they had a great home

life that is the base it's like the it's

like the Touchstone for them that they

can return to but for a lot of people

even people who go home for the holidays

or who touch in with their parents

whether or not they're divorced or not

that they don't feel like that family

unit is really a a solid thing maybe

they're in a place I see this a lot of

where like they're the parent they had

to grow up taking care of the parents I

see that a lot on both the male side and

the female side I see that um

so you're saying that one strong

predictor of getting through is a

feeling of people want essentially

making it their like almost like

biological identity to get through it

was certainly the case for me I mean

when I got and again I don't really like

to overdo these things because it tends

to feed the Mythos a

little but when I got to buds Andrew

like I when I got to the Naval Academy I

had a very strong sense of this is my

chance and you know you develop over the

years and you spend time thinking about

this and having mentors when I got there

that was very much my first time

of you better bring the nastiest on

the planet because I'm not leaving here

like it's just not I'm not I'm just not

going you know and there's a Navy bit to

it too like I didn't want to do anything

else in the Navy so back to fear I was

afraid I would get stuck doing a job I

didn't like but there's some people are

not wrong you know about buds there's

some very difficult days where you do

start to wonder like is this really

worth it and I and that I never once

thought about quitting it never crossed

my mind because I just had these other

things that I really had to do for

myself in my life or else I felt like I

was going to have

nothing and so again I don't think

operating out of fear is particularly

adaptive but sometimes it you know the

bit in your teeth is

useful yeah certainly in my own life I

could say you know getting real scared

about being 19 and essentially realizing

I'm not good at anything I'm not good at

anything and I was terrible at a lot of

things and some of those things were

taking me down a dangerous path that

that was the fear I'm grateful for the

fear piece it it would it it scruffed me

and uh let's talk about the suspended in

school yep um he's uh first of all that

implies getting caught yes not just

misbehaving but getting caught um yeah

what do you think that's about so we're

really talking about a sense of

rebellion against Authority or the

system that one finds themselves in

which is super important for our line of

work like for me again I can only speak

for myself for me it was the wild

you Factor like you have to there's just

a nasty reality of the work we had to do

you know I was in from 98 until 2011 in

the seal teams in the SEAL Teams from 98

until 2011 everybody knows what was

happening between 911 and then um it's

not that it didn't stop happening I know

you know from my own experience from 03

through 2010 was extremely intense and

um

obviously the military has rules and we

need rules and you follow the laws of

onc conflict and you follow the rules of

engagement there's no question about

that

ever

um but the that happens to you out

in the field for real does not follow

any pattern and so if you are a complete

you know nonsuspended from school rule

follower I'm not saying you won't be

successful I'm sure plenty of people are

but in our line of work if you ask

people most of them had a weird streak

as they were coming up like they have a

little bit of a a side eye when somebody

tells them this is how stuff is like

maybe it's like that but you don't know

that and where it really became clear

for me Andrew was look at every stage in

your development you're still looking

for what right looks like and when I was

a I'm now a Naval Academy graduate not

that that means anything special but I'm

smart enough I'm now in my 20s I'm at

Buds

and I have this recollection later like

you people are always telling stories

about the teams and when you're a new

student at buds you're you kind of

believe everything the instructors tell

you because it's pretty impressive

and then you find out later when you

when I checked into Seal Team 3 and you

actually start to understand the Arc of

the job it's like all these guys were

telling training stories those weren't

real Combat stories those they they

never said that that was a story from

training and so my point is

like what what you I hope guys are

getting it now but what we didn't get a

lot of was the real story in a sense

meaning I will say definitively my first

combat deployment was 03 when we invaded

Iraq I was a platoon Commander we

invaded Iraq and I remember within a

week of being in that situation thinking

not one single instructor had the

experience to mentor and Coach me on

this not one and so you have to go back

to that wild

suspended you factor mindset like

all your silly rules about how the

military Works none of that shit's

happening out here like all this other

stuff is happening that doesn't have

anything to do with your training

manuals except for the things you don't

violate which is to your best of your

ability stuff happens but the rules of

engage the laws of armed conflict

everything else is a tossup the tactics

aren't that's not a tossup but you know

what I mean like the environment is it

completely

chaotic it's a new sport it's a brand

new sport that no one coached you on and

and it's highrisk high consequence for

you and your teammates but also for the

other side I mean

every 15 seconds is a new consequential

decision yeah because you obviously

don't want to kill civilians on the

other side either of course not

yeah so you obviously get through

buds you probably weren't surprised

given your mindset probably weren't

surprised no no I wasn't surprised at

this point I'm maybe building a little

self-confidence and just operate out of

fear but happy presumably oh yeah yep

and I feel obligated to ask well I'm

just curious to ask that you you know

you've been in a system of military for

a long time is there a a bigger um poll

of patriotism there or that's just it's

there but I mean are you thinking about

country or are you thinking about team

you think about the day yeah I mean at

this point you know I'm fully

indoctrinated in a sense you know the

Naval Academy really does give you a

sense of again bigness and you meet

people from World War II and Vietnam and

you know an amazing guy which you know

we can cover later I don't I wasn't

around when he was coming up but Colonel

John Ripley is a guy who won the Navy

cross in Vietnam um the book The the

bridge of donga is about him he knew my

this is back to I was my Uncle Jim who

introduc he and my Uncle Jim were

buddies and I met him he's since passed

away I met Colonel Ripley when I was a

ple at the Naval Academy um I work with

one of his sons now friend teammate

Mentor is a great

guy um colonel Ripley he's a legend like

this guy's a Navy cross winner should

have won the Congressional Medal of

Honor by all accounts if you read the B

the book to Bridget dong High you you

are going to have no ability to

understand why he's not dead and these

are the kind of people you meet so back

to the patriotism you know Thing by the

time I was in the teams I I knew where I

was sort of in this

ecosystem admittedly though what I

didn't really have Andrew because it I

mean I love the country of course but it

wasn't again I didn't grow up with a dad

who was like you know this was always in

our house or just wasn't that big of a

thing this this came for me after 911

obviously but yes the patriotism and the

importance of the jobs there but what

when I remember checking in Seal Team 3

what what emerged very quickly for me

because we had Vietnam vets in the

training cell at se team 3 and just some

amazing

people what I realized away was okay

playtime is completely

over and that was very useful like early

lesson not that anyone was

around in buds like you know it's

serious but you meet a guy like Master

Chief Martin who's got 100 combat

missions from Vietnam he's about to

retire he was like the third person I

met when I checked into the team and you

suddenly are like a kid again

where there was just no

around so you're in the teams presumably

liking the work loved it loving the team

component it's hard it's

unpredictable and that's part of the the

fun it's amazing yeah the job's

amazing you do a number of different

deployments MH and at some point you get

called to try out for the tier one uh

tier one division within the within the

SEAL Teams um maybe just explain a

little bit of what tier one means um and

you know we don't want to speak in code

here but we you know just inform people

that there are levels within the teams

um and that uh yeah tell us what tier

one is yeah well I'll just refer to a

special Mission Unit it's probably the

easiest um we have a bunch of teams on

the east and west coast as a lot of

people know nowadays this was not

public knowledge years ago yeah so so

you've got the these different units

within within the SEAL Teams yeah so you

you have to raise your hand you know I

was 10 years in Andrew I was at I had

had been platoon Commander during the

invasion of Iraq we came to Monterey I

went to school and went back to be a

budge instructor it was 10 years I felt

like it was time to you know take my

shot it's a little risky because it's

hard to make it through you know Green

Team and stuff at the at the special

Mission Unit it's a 9month Advanced

Training Program you're 10 years into

your career you're not 22 anymore and

not everyone gets called The Green Team

not everyone can go you can't say I want

to go I want to try out you can say you

want to try out and you do a

pre-screener okay so the command

training staff I'll call it the command

for purposes of this conversation

because I'm familiar with that term for

us the command training staff comes out

they put you through all this stuff some

of it's psychological some of it's

physiological I don't think we did a

blood test but they checked the trainers

checked everything on me um which I

thought this is actually a description

of why the units tier one I was even in

the pre-screening it was the first time

the way I joke about it is like I really

felt like I was doing what was in the

brochure like it was real varsity stuff

you

know I'm presaging a later conversation

that we'll get to but um at this point

Have you ever sat down with a

psychologist and done a therapy session

that was no therapy but I sat down with

psychologist because they put us through

the battery the neop The Raven stuff

like that they're asking you how do you

sleep at night how do you feel what do

you dream about how much do you drink

and you say two beers a week and and

you're lying everyone L yeah but now it

might be two beers a week now it's zero

zero right um but yeah so it was good

screening process like I was like oh

these guys are not messing around

this is exactly what I wanted to do MH

and the physical tests ramp up and uh

coincidentally I worked for him later

still friends with him now on my

interview board was uh bris Linsky who

won the Congressional Medal of Honor BR

was on my interview board and he's great

guy and so yeah then you just wait and

if you get picked up you go out you know

to the east coast and you really rolling

the dice because I was on the west coast

you move your whole family sell your

house you mean have to sell your house

but we did and you move and you're going

to

do a 9month advanced training program at

the command just to get into a Tactical

Unit you know which we call squadrons

and the best way tactically for me to

describe the difference and look my time

at Team three was amazing I'm not

diminishing it but let me just use freef

fall military freef fall for anybody

who's you know even done civilian free

fall so it's jumping out of place

jumping yeah so if you go if we go to

the Drop Zone and we go jumping right

FAA regulations have you jump at 12,999

FT CU soon as you go above 13,000 you

have to use supplemental oxygen which is

not a huge deal but it's a pain in the

ass for the airplane to have it and

so 99% of your jump all your jumps well

at any standard Drop Zone your civilian

jumps are going to be below 13 Grand for

all of our jumping at Seal Team 3 is

below 13 Grand it just makes the

training more efficient and you'll jump

during the daytime maybe a little night

jumping you probably have some lights

for

safety um and if you look out of the

airplane you would be able to see the

orange te on the drop zone right that's

your standard jump profile maybe you'll

jump with some weight you'll certainly

jump with your weapon probably your

helmet but not all your jumps because

you're bringing guys from zero to be

able to do tactical military freef fall

as a

group when you go to the

command your jumps

are from 25,000 ft you do 30 minutes of

pre-breathing on oxygen helmet night

vision zero lights and a attack board

that has your navigation system on it

100 pounds of gear your weapon your

oxygen all your and 45 dudes piled

up in a

c17 and you drop miles away from the

Drop Zone because you're over ground

speed at 25,000 ft is hauling ass you

know because of the wind and if you take

your hands out of your gloves at 25,000

feet it's curtains like you're not going

to be able to use your fingers cuz it's

so cold and you jump from way away

obviously and all your jump is

completely blacked out everybody turns

IR lights on their helmets and INF

infrared lights so you can see through

night vision um and you got to fly that

canopy multiple multiple miles and land

everybody on a drop zone you know that's

if you take every tactical thing we

do and

expand the same way you would expand

freef fall that's the difference at the

command which is look I was I want to

own this when I was at Team three

because you think about this I had many

many moments where I was thinking ah

it man those guys aren't that much

different like we're we're super highend

right and we

are and then when I got there I was like

this is this is another level what what

percentage of people that go to Green

Team get through and get S uh I think I

had had 65 in my class you don't drop

that many maybe 10 guys didn't make it

or something maybe

15ish so then you were why do they call

it tier one no idea it must have some

official reason like because if you go

into like real documentation Andrew like

there's there there's echelons in you

know this this command is ech on this

this command is echel on this and the

military Congress sets end strength

numbers it's says the Navy you get at

the one time CU I took some class the

Navy had like 355,000 people and that's

the Navy's end strength and they have to

distribute those numbers across

everybody in the Navy so I don't know

why it's called tier one but I think it

has a you know has a reason so you got

through M you were accepted and then

you're doing very different sorts of

things than you were doing previously

very so my understanding is this is

largely counterterror

work um so all the work in the military

and SEAL Teams is high-risk High

consequence but now it's Special

Operations as as the name

um implies um where things have to be

worked out on a on a case-by Case basis

it's highly unusual it was unusual

before but now it's highly unusual

circumstances um what was it like to be

there did you like that family I loved

it it was the best place to work MH um

and this is 200 this is 06 through 2011

for me okay so it's post 911 uh through

2011 yep okay

so I'm sure a lot happened and most of

which we can't and won't discuss um and

that's not what's important here yeah um

but clearly you met and worked with some

amazing individuals

um I happen to know because we've uh

spoken before and we have some common

friends in in the in the that Arena that

um you had both the privilege of doing

this work in this really important

wartime but also um the unfortunate

experience of of being close to and

working with uh quite a lot of people

that uh were killed yep um how many so I

mean I don't know why I did this or why

anyone does it

it it's way over 40 but I try not

to over affiliate myself with a larger

group than I actually

knew but the people that I personally

knew Andrew it's exactly

40 and um and we could spend probably

weeks detailing how impressive uh each

and every one of those people was in

their individual cases this is perhaps a

an opportunity to um put a call out

there's a a wonderful book I think an

important book that isn't so well known

in the in the array of quote unquote

military and seal books um which is the

book about Adam Brown Yeah The Fearless

book I heard they're going to make it

into a movie but but what I um what I

like about the book is um actually has

very little to do with the SEAL Teams

totally that's thing is that Adam um had

a serious serious problem with addiction

that he masked at times and it came back

to pull him under various times while he

was in the teams and um I know you

worked with Adam and you're close my

green team yeah yeah so um that's a

great book for anyone that wants a a

different sort of book um it's really

about addiction and family and his

discovery of the path out of all that

his tenacity is incredible awesome

awesome book and human about an awesome

awesome human um so you do those years

um and then you

know what happens when you know 40

people close to you die uh I have to

imagine involves a you get pretty good

unfortunately

at taking what each and every one of

those is a tragedy and and just

continuing yeah so um let's just talk

about that for a bit if if you're

willing yep so um guys are getting shot

and blown up and you're close with them

to to say the least

and what was your role in the in the

aftermath like like how what do you do

you you you go to a funeral you you you

um toast a few beers and then you go

back to work I mean it's that's kind of

you know in the most simplistic terms

Andrew that is exactly what happens

um there's obviously you know a lot more

that goes on

but if you script the diary so to

speak it's it wasn't you know a funeral

every 3 months but on average if I

averaged out because I've done this in

you know

Excavating the last few years we were at

a funeral or Memorial effectively every

90 days and um in that time

period but it wasn't obviously you know

that simple like for for me and our

family Doug was my first super close

teammate killed and it wasn't in the

teams right I'm now at the command I was

back from Afghanistan from Kandahar this

is way before the Marines built up 100

kilometers west of Kandahar we were

operating six of us with like 180

Afghans kind of the wild west back then

and Doug was killed that summer of ' 07

and and I got a phone call from a friend

I was standing in my kitchen in Virginia

Beach and it was

like like the whole scaffolding of the

world was just

gone because at that age and here I am

like I'm some kid I was in my I was in

my 30s but I'm

thinking you know things get more and

more serious as you go like at that time

but when Doug was

killed and I was a Paul Bear in his

funeral and you know we came up to

Anapolis he was living in Anapolis cuz

he was working it's it's now been

publicly released which is nice for Pam

because she can talk about it more he

was working at the

agency and

um when after his funeral and just the

days around that and then I go back to

work and what I mentioned earlier about

Doug and what I knew about him just as

an operator he had been a company

commander in fujia he was on the front

page of the LA Times like Tony Perry is

a reporter in San Diego he was in fuia

following Doug the guy was and Doug is

not a like a public people people just

attracted to him to tell his story um I

have so many stories that I heard later

from his bosses his regimental Commander

you know told stories about his unit in

fuia his sergeant major and his amazing

guy I've talked to him about like what

went on in fuia Doug is just a

Legend I mean he was

awesome and the dominant

thought after his funeral was if things

it's not that you don't think they're

serious and I and I mean just about life

Andrew it wasn't just about Combat

Action and hard deployments it was about

if Doug can be killed all bets

are off they're all off like if I didn't

respect the rules before and didn't

think Society was particularly ordered

in a way that I respected you know

that I think is made

up I knew when Doug was K

that it's all made up like he

was supposed to

be the immortal

one and if he's not none of us are like

everything has to be re-evaluated you

know how old was I was 32 and and you've

got kids at this point yeah yep um yeah

olly wasn't born yet my youngest because

you you now have three boys yeah three

boys 21 18 and 14 and um the older two

were born my my middle son was two at

the time and did it occur to you at the

point when Doug was killed or maybe some

other point that you know at some point

you could die oh I mean that's what I

mean Andrew like I you know personal

work and therapy afterwards it it was

then that I started looking over my

shoulder just in general like everything

was

suddenly like has to be watched with a

Vigilant

eye something that um close friends

close male friends of mine have told me

um these are friends that are married

with kids um and I've heard this from

people that were in the military and and

as well as those that weren't was that

it was very important to them

to marry somebody who were they to die

they knew their kids would be well taken

care of oh that one's not even there's

no question about that yeah so um that

that was a like a primary criteria and I

think in your line of work I mean that

that must be especially important

because the the probability of of dying

is well let's face it is is much higher

as as my uh sister who doesn't like

sharks once told me she said you know

the best way to not get eaten by a shark

is never go in the ocean you know there

is a way to limiting probabilities

she'll swim in the ocean a little bit

but but the point being that when you're

in the military and your your uh shoot

move and communicate is a big part of

the the job description and the uh the

enemy is also taught to shoot move and

communicate that there's there's a

decent probability that you could die so

um did you ever think okay well if I die

my kids are okay because Bridget's solid

or were you still just operating on this

24-hour schedule that you had adopted

way back in the seventh grade no I think

well maybe I'd have to ask her that

question

um I think I was backed away from the

24-hour ledge a little bit MH I I knew

that the boys obviously would be taken

care of with my wife like that was never

even had never crossed my mind probably

until you just asked the question that

was almost just like table Stakes

mhm

um back to this adaptive but maladaptive

behavior when Doug was killed I just

realized I had to work even

harder to try to stay

alive

because if you met the guy there is I'm

going to say it probably multiple there

is not a human on the planet

that was as tough and as focused and as

hyper dialed in to how to do the

job 100%

effectively as he was

and it happened to him you know and it I

just never it it's almost embarrassing

and to say I never thought about it like

that until Doug was

killed and and yet and I'm not

challenging that at all of course uh I

mean life circumstances the other team

gets a vote too totally right I mean I

mean somebody can be um seemingly

indestructible oh so capable and

talented and get T-boned at an

intersection and die right like like

that yeah we've known people like that

all of us you know you hear these things

that's why they're called tragedies yeah

we just just like to put it in context

we have to remember is part of the

beauty of taking a young person and

taking all the ingredients that a person

comes into Special Operations pick your

service I'm not I'm agnostic I mean some

of my best buddies are army and Marine

Corps like I'm agnostic to the service

head is when you end up at a certain

point like and you look back you realize

for 10 or 15 years I've been

indoctrinated in a very adaptive way to

believe that I'm

Immortal because if you

didn't you certainly wouldn't jump out

of aircraft at 25,000 feet with no

lights and you for hell for sure

wouldn't go into some of these

towns we go into and end up in these

firefights like you have some

weird I'll speak for myself I was

entirely convinced that I couldn't be

killed and I I just because I was in

some way Andrew convinced that our

training was so

good that that wouldn't happened to

us let's take a step back for a second

and acknowledge the the truth uh all

around that set of statements which is

that um I think most people can think of

the government and the training programs

as um honing the body but um it's

probably not lost on you at this point

in your life that the you were you're a

weapon your mind became a weapon right

your your body became a weapon um uh you

were a weapon of the military from the

inside out and in the statement you just

made encapsulates that y um and that

weapon honed itself for a long time but

then that's what the military is it

creates weapons and of out of humans and

I'm not demonizing the military

whatsoever I want to be very clear I

realize that statement could be

construed differently but um but that

mindset encapsulates that so um so with

the other guys I want to make sure I

finish your question so it started with

Doug and then you know I don't know what

direction you want to go here

specifically but then it just kept going

Andrew right like at that time Doug was

07 and then we went to Iraq in the

winter of 0708 which

was complete Mayhem and the troop was I

mean my my troop in the winter of

0708 were like

superheroes and a guy named Tommy

Valentine was the troop Chief and we got

home and he was killed in a parachute

accident after all that we went

through Badger a guy named Mark Carter

was killed in that deployment we got

home and Tommy was killed in a parachute

accident and me and a guy named Dutch we

went up to Minnesota to notify Tommy's

parents and his sister and his

brother and we're not the Navy calls him

Kos like casualty assistance officers

these are jobs in the military where

you're trained to do this stuff you know

one of the things that's amazing about

us is if a guy gets killed we send a

team guy there but think about the team

guy like it's great for the family that

you send the team guy but we don't know

about sitting with a family who's

about to be notified that their son in

this case of Tommy was killed Brit went

to Christina's house lab Brit slinsky he

went to Christina's house and me and

Dutch went up to

Minnesota

and I'm shaking right now like I was

shaking the whole drive we had to get to

International Falls all way up North The

Valentines are incredible

people and I I mean notifying a family

was

just it was brutal and so this is this

is the this is'

08 and then it just keeps coming it's

Nate and it's Mike and it's Lance and

it's extortion in

2011 and in the middle of that Adam gets

killed right like tons of people know

about extortion because it was a

helicopter obviously full well maybe we

just just briefly want to mention that

was August 2011 as I recall yes yeah

August of 11 yeah so but in 2010 Adam is

killed

and I got a phone call and and I wasn't

best friend I mean Adam had some very

close friends as to command that I I

don't want to make some anybody give the

impression that like me and Adam were

boys we were we knew each other well

right we went through green to him

together he was in a different Squadron

though so you sort of get separated a

little

and I got a phone call in the middle of

the night from one of my buddies who's

still in who is is another

Legend and

um I answered the phone and it's

midnight I knew something was wrong and

we were kind of in this pattern then and

you're like actually a few of the

commands were like our partner command

and a bunch of other guys we work with

in other units it was a hard time like

guys were fighting hard overseas and um

that just comes with the consequences we

know you know and I get the phone call

the middle of the night I'm

like and

so this guy tells me you know get your

uniform you need to come in something

happened and I'm like I know

what happened like tell me who it is and

and they you know didn't want to say it

over the phone which I

get and uh

I I had like one of those moments where

I told him no I I can't I can't do that

again like you have to get somebody who

knows what the they're

doing and he just didn't let me off the

hook you

know get your and come come into

the command because you got to do all

this prep stuff and um I walked into the

conference room I mean I remember

clear's day Andrew I walked into the

conference room and I could see it on

everybody's face again this is 2010

now they

were more terrified than I was and these

arei you know civilian guys guys who

retired who are now civilians they work

at the command and amazing people and

they looked like I don't know if you've

seen um Peter Jackson's remake they

shall not grow old oh you have to watch

it they shall not grow old is Peter

Jackson took Real World War I footage oh

I did see that yeah he put the color in

the lip reading and it and there's a

scene I don't know if it's a Battle of

the Bulge or exactly there's a scene

where

um this young unit army unit is about to

go up over over the top and you know run

across open field and the camera pans

over and there's a young kid with his

rifle in front of him the bayonet a

fixed to it his helmet on his lips are

sort of flat and pursed and he everybody

in that conference room looked like him

when I saw that movie later I'm like

every single person looked like him and

they told me it was Adam and we were