Asi Wind: What Magic & Mind Reading Reveal About the Brain

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

[Music]

life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine my guest today is AI wind AI

wind is one of the top magicians and

mentalists in the world now you may be

asking yourself why would the hubman Lab

podcast host a magician Mentalist and

the obvious answer perhaps would be that

mag magicians and mentalists reveal to

us where our gaps in perception reside

that is where the human brain falters

such that magicians and mentalists can

take advantage of that and give us the

impression the illusion that certain

things happened when they didn't however

during today's discussion you will learn

that AI wins magic and Mentalist work

which by the way is absolutely

astonishing you can see examples of this

in some of the links in the show note

captions that will take you to YouTube

clips in which aie did some of these

tricks and mentally work on me directly

in the studio and there are other

examples out there that we've linked to

on the internet as well that the work

that aiwin does illustrates how we form

memories how we erase memories and the

specific things that we all can do in

order to stamp down certain memories and

to erase other memories indeed much of

what aie wi's work does is to use an

understanding of how the brain works in

order to create false memories to erase

recent memories and indeed to use

emotion and empathy and storytelling in

order for you the Observer to create a

perception of something that happened

that may or may not have actually

happened indeed what AI reveals to us

today tells us not how a magician or

Mentalist fools us but rather how we

with our own brains lead ourselves to

believe that certain things happened

when in fact they may or may not have

happened and the way that we collaborate

with others in order to create those

either false or real perceptions it's a

discussion that I'm sure everyone

whether or not you're a fan of magic or

not will find fascinating indeed I learn

so much from the discussion with AI

about neuroscience and about how the

human brain constructs narratives of the

past present and future that it informs

not just my understanding of how the

brain works but indeed how to learn

better how to remember things better and

to consolidate that information to

really stamp it into your memory so that

you never forget so while AI wind is a

magician and Mentalist today's

discussion is really a discussion about

the Neuroscience of how to learn how to

forget how to access creativity and how

art and storytelling empathy and emotion

all can allow us to access powers within

us that make us far more effective in

whatever Pursuits we may be after before

we begin I'd like to emphasize that this

podcast is separate from my teaching and

research roles at Stanford it is however

part of my desire and effort to bring

zero cost to Consumer information about

science and science related tools tools

to the general public in keeping with

that theme I'd like to thank the

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discussion with aie wind aie wind

welcome thank you for having me I can't

tell you how excited I am to have you

here today I've seen you do your live

shows twice once in Los Angeles once in

New York and both times there were three

major effects first of all I was

absolutely astonished there's truly no

hyper herbally that can capture what you

are capable of doing um just by way of

example folks prior to coming in here

aie agreed to do a trick he let me

select a card uh an Ace of Hearts from a

deck of cards I held it there was

another card ace of diamonds I also held

that I looked at them I turned them over

in my hands he's not touching them he

asked somebody in the room for a number

number number everyone provides a number

then he ask me which person's number I

would like to select there's

no prior agreements or communication

here

whatsoever I selected the number seven

he says turn over the cards that are

still in my hands he hasn't touched me I

turn over the cards and now they are

sevens not

Aces unbelievable and uh and yet it

happened and that's but a minor example

of the sorts of things that you do so

that's the first thing absolutely

astonishing two you involve many of the

senses not just visual perception memory

Etc but many of the senses and groups of

people you are able to somehow create

Perceptions in people or perhaps these

perceptions are accurate that certain

things have happened and everyone agrees

that these things happen so it's not

just one person being quote unquote

tricked and then the third is that you

and I both share a fascination with the

human mind and perception which is

really one of the main reasons why

you're you're here today because you are

a scientist uh who I believe understands

how perception

Works understands the gaps in perception

and memory and understands these things

at a practical level that no

neuroscientist not I nor anyone else who

could tell you about the nuts and bolts

of the brain and nervous system could

ever approach so welcome I'm super

excited for our conversation and my

first

question is when you do a trick with one

person with many

people how confident are you that you're

going to get the answer correct meaning

are you always operating at the level of

100% certainty that you're going to get

it right or rather is there a little bit

of a gap are you running a like a 90%

probability um and the reason I start

with this question is that I think it's

a very different situation when The

Mentalist the magician

is certain it's going to work out as

opposed to when it's not and I think

it's the dynamic tension of the

possibility that it might not work out

that gets everyone so engrossed in what

you do yes so um first of all a lot of

people think do you ever fail do you

ever get it wrong and the truth is

there's something they don't know we're

going to reveal some Secrets here um a

lot of people don't know that we are

very much like jazz musicians I'm not a

musician I'm going to probably butcher

this

analogy here but we write the story as

it goes in other words you might see me

do a trick and think that's what I do

every day but I don't so in other words

if something goes wrong because every

person is really

unpredictable uh I said take a card

maybe I'm trying to make you take a

certain card maybe I'm trying to

influence you and you're not going for

it I'm okay with making a little detour

you just don't know I'm taking a detour

and I'm improvising and I we'll go

somewhere else and I'm okay with that so

a lot of the magic that I love to do we

call it Jazzy magic is Magic that

literally gets written as we go but I'm

the only one who knows it uh and you go

wow it's concluded beautifully right so

there's there's some times when I like

after a show and I and I go wow this did

not work and that didn't work and people

say what do you mean everything worked

perfect they don't know what I see is a

little different than what you see so in

that sense when you're an amateur

magician you're just starting out and

you don't have you know the experience

you can literally just get stuck and go

sorry let's do it again and it could

happen but for a season you know a

season performer someone who does it

again and again and again I I'll borrow

from a pendulate analogy that I love

it's like gr Hog Day the movie uh we get

to relive the same night again and again

and again and guess what what people are

very much alike I'll hear the same

hackling I'll hear the same thing or I I

I start to see types this person is

going to be confrontational this person

is going to be is is a person who

believes maybe in Supernatural everybody

has a Vibe and you know even though I'm

not a scientist I'm not a psychologist

uh I don't have any degrees in any of

those but I'm a practitioner of

psychology I tried the same trick a

million times and I start to see

patterns Behavior

patterns that I can use to my advantage

like for example I noticed that it's

easier to fool smart people as opposed

to people are not so smart tell me more

about that because you know I'm relying

on the bank of information you have in

your head against you it's ta chi I know

what you know and I know that whenever

you view anything you have to fill in

the blanks with lots of information I

show you a couple of things and you say

okay this makes sense this and I know

how you think and the fact that I an

idea of what you know and what you don't

know I can use it against you and that's

a beautiful concept right as opposed to

someone who's not so educ I don't know

what he knows and they tend to think

very simple and they're the ones to

figure out magic the most because they

don't fill in the blanks they take it

for what it is uh you telling yourself a

better story you enriching The

Experience based on all this the wealth

of information you have about psychology

and how this works and how perception

works and how memory works for example

you just described the trick I did for

you you did not describ the trick you

described your your memory of that trick

so my job you know and I'm boring from

my master myestro Juan tamari who's my

favorite Magician of all time and I

consider him we'll talk about him quite

a bit now um he taught me so much but he

he talks a lot about memory like we are

first first of all we encoding the

information I give you something to

encode then I'm asking you to store it

either in short term memory medium-term

long-term uh I don't know if it's even a

real term but a chemical uh memory right

when it gets embedded in your memory and

then I'm trying to

manipulate how you're going to recall

the experience and what you did you

described my trick in a way that I could

never do I wish I could perform the

trick you just described I can't but I

was trying to create at least the

impression you recorded a feeling you

had you did not record what you saw and

experienced you recorded a

feeling it felt so amazing that the

feeling was coted in the memory as well

and therefore you you were the co-author

of that trick you you help me fool

you I'm very curious about the role of

emotion in the co-authoring of these

tricks and by the way folks the

conversation we're having today is not

just about magic tricks and

mentalists this occurs at the level of

interactions between

people one to one this occurs at the

level of media to the general audience

of the world this stuff scales uh at

every level and in every domain of Life

we'll get to how that exactly that

occurs I wonder if I could ask you about

the verse engineering of a trick a

hypothetical trick sure sure sure so

tell me if this trick is possible and if

so one of the possible ways that you

would do this um I I think I've seen you

do something similar to this or other

mentalists do something similar to this

you're standing in a room full of people

let's say 50 people and you have a piece

of paper and a pen and you say okay I'm

going to write down a series of numbers

and you write them down you fold it up

you put it on a table next year you set

the pen down there's no contact with it

anymore and then you go around the room

and you just ask people for numbers

between 1 and 25 you ask a certain

number of people and then somehow you

return to the paper you open it up and

that's the sequence of numbers that it

seems like a straightforward but

astonishing trick it's a classic a

classic okay classic of magic for people

like me we want to know at least one

solution to that challenge how does

what's one way in which a magician could

do that obviously we start to go to the

physical explanation okay somebody

underneath the table that the piece of

paper was on wrote down the numbers they

heard and put it on the table uh another

solution would be that there was a stack

of papers up there with any number of

different combinations but then it's a

very large number big stack of paper

then it becomes hard to hide and on and

on um all going in the wrong direction

of course um I can also think of the

end uh product way of doing this where

the piece of paper that you show has the

numbers that the people stated but

somehow we think it's those numbers when

it's actually other numbers like there's

some sort of visual illusion that we all

agree on seeing but here I'm just

guessing so how could one do that trick

wow we need two hours to dissect this

one um so here's a deal I just noticed

something as you were going through all

the options is someone I assume you're

not a magician no um I just realized

that a quality of magic is that it

ignites your imagination and your

creativity you just basically saw

something that has no explanation and

you're a knowledgeable guy you know a

lot about a lot of things and it in a

weird in a good way it bothers

you why don't I know that answer I know

so much about the mind and how we sleep

and how we you know how certain

exercises affect our bodies and blah

blah blah but this series of number I

don't know and that drives you nuts a

bit but it's good cuz then your mind

starts racing and and thinking of

everything you said is a wonderful

exercise in uh problem solving right how

could be achieved and then you slowly

ruled them out as too much paper too

much work hiring somebody under a table

to write maybe a solution but you have

to pay somebody just to do that job um

but it's nice because um we're teasing

the mind we're teasing we're challenging

the mind in an era where it seems like

all the information is out there we have

I my smartphone can do you know more

than my first computer could right in in

my pocket so we are we are up against

and by every time I I tell you this it's

a bit of a tangent here um every time

technology

advances magicians get scared say oh I

people are when they can do all these

marvelous things I mean how are they

going to care about the number you just

spoke or or carard changing in my hand

and I attribute that to again your

desire to see something

marvelous without by the way there's

there are people that don't want to see

magic like I do something that's really

is seems impossible and they go slide of

hand they they come up with a very

simple solution they not need picking

about exactly how you did it they go oh

he's fast he's fast with his hands or

you know they come up with a very simple

solution that I don't know why it

satisfies them but it does and it's

because they lack the desire to see

magic so to

me again and we're going back to the

co-authoring I really need someone a

partner when I whenever I do magic that

someone has this desire to see something

that's beautiful

that's going to bend the rules of what

we know is possible right and they're

joining me so to your question how is it

done there's many many uh ways to

achieve this effect and because we don't

possess I don't we can talk about this

if you want about the supernatural I

don't believe that anybody possesses

Supernatural powers or even close to

that um and because of that

we we have to ch eat we have to do some

dirty work which I don't want you to

know about um and so in other words

every trick that I do has a little scar

a little a moment I wish did not exist

and by the way a magician when they

choose a trick like that they need to

say oh I can go this route or this route

they're going to pay a price with this

version Oh I cannot do it this way here

I it's not as clean here I cannot be as

direct here I have to choose maybe

certain people in the the audience again

I'm tiptoeing around it so I don't

reveal how it's done um but you're

making a sacrifice with every choice you

make the goal is at the end to make

somebody as smart as you go how how and

then start racing and and at the end you

reach a dead end

hopefully it's

magic you

Excel and I enjoyed it and and that's I

want you to surrender and and it's a

surrender it's not uh you're not being

defeated you you you give into the to

this place where magic could happen you

you make room for something that should

not happen in this world to happen and

and that's why I love magic so much it

it is a a bit of a reminder that I'll

tell you a story there is a joggler who

is not a magician he's and and I'm not

going to mention names for a reason so

he juggles on the streets and you know

make some money on the streets and one

day he goes to see a magic

show and the magic the magician

wonderful magician uh who does this

wonderful act it's the ZIP code act he

says to people um tell me your zip code

and then he tells them where they live

tell me where you live he tells them the

zip code and then he describes places

around them oh you have a Starbucks

there and blah blah and like he describe

it's amazing it's wonderful now this

joggler not a magician watches a

magician who is doing a trick there's a

scientific explanation to how it's done

it's not it's not anything beyond that

um and again it's

wonderful and he goes how did he do that

and then he comes up with the solution

that the magician must havee memorized

all the ZIP codes in the

world not the case but that's the

impression he goes home

and starts memorizing all the ZIP codes

in America

first he spends thousands of hours to

memorize zip codes for real he's doing

the real version of what the magician

did and he performs it now all over the

country he's doing the ZIP code act for

real and the beauty of this story is

that a false performance artificial

present representation of a skill

inspired somebody to do something that

is real and therefore push his limits is

human you know realistic limits to a

level that a lot of people go that's not

possible right and and I think it's a

beauty about this and again goes back to

your question how is it done so maybe

the solution you just came up with is

better than what I do but I least ignite

you to to think about it so I it's it's

it's really a a big reason uh an

important reason why I love magic so

much staying with my question of how a

trick like that is done you really want

to know well I don't think you're

actually going to tell me the specific

order of operations to make it happen I

I don't expect that but I can think of

um two kind of um end points for

exploring this one is or at least two

one is to manipulate what's

on the paper right like the other is to

manipulate what people say or are likely

to say perhaps by selecting people that

are likely to say certain numbers

because you have some understanding of

that I don't know how that would happen

the other is to completely revise

people's understanding of what just

happened in a group and I think the last

possibility is the one that intrigues me

and most people the most the idea that

even in the company of other rational

well-rested sober meaning non-

inebriated or on drugs people that

sometimes it helps that there's a there

could be a

collective perception that is not

accurate but everyone agrees to

confabulate together and the reason I

ask this and I focus on this third

possibility is that we know that the

memory system is a confabulation system

correct a good example of this would be

people who sadly have some form of

dementia they often will find themselves

in a room doing something and if you ask

them hey what were you doing they don't

say I don't know they say oh you know I

came in here to do something and they

create these elaborate stories of what

got them there which may make sense to

them might not um but we all do this we

all confabulate false memories there is

a huge topic into itself but um we all

confabulate memory is not perfect so um

I imagine this third possibility is one

that you work with and that you massage

um how does one think about memory in

the context of these experiments that uh

I just called them experiments these

tricks that you do I like by I love that

word right and and here we agreed that

we're were going to talk about science

today as we always do when whenever I

see you um and in experiments as people

may or may not know you ask a question

but you pose hypotheses so you say like

how do we cure cancer but then you pose

a hypothesis you say I think it's going

to be cured by doing blank blank and

blank and then you test that and you try

and rule out your hypothesis it's a

little bit of why I call it an

experiment um so for instance um is

there a way that you can get people to

believe that they saw the numbers let's

make it very simple 3 8 and seven when

in fact you held up a piece of paper

that said something very different is

that have you done that before I I I see

where you're going with this uh and I

and I love use the word experiments one

of my heroes Chan

Canasta was a psychologist who who used

psychology in his work uh as a magician

as a mentalist and he didn't he never

called his pieces uh tricks or magic he

called them

experiments and he was careful about it

he it's not just uh an aesthetic Choice

he wanted to to plant this SE

in their mind experiment means it could

fail okay which is a very good starting

point for any dramatic uh because if

something is going to work and but if

there's something at stake something

could fail people are more engaged so I

love the word I sometimes use the word

uh what's an experiment yeah it's like a

these um crazy people that climb up the

side of buildings with no ropes I mean

we don't want to see them fall but the

possibility that they could fall is

what's exciting the the movie free solo

cor with Alex hell we all know at the

beginning he

lives he he lives and yet you want to

see it in case he might not live and

even though you know he lives in some

ways that's a a magic trick into itself

that's the Brilliance of David Blaine

who I consider one of my dearest friend

and my one of my favorite magicians in

the world and what he does I mean we can

talk about him at length but you know

blending real stuff with magic and it's

almost sometimes it's hard to tell what

is real and what's not and I I I even

love that aspect and a lot of people

don't know but all the stuff he does is

real when he's holding his breath night

after night in now in vegus at the wind

10 minutes and you know sitting uh in

the audience watching David do that is

so

inspiring because I look at it

symbolically he is is showing us cuz he

was inspired by a kid who survived um

being trapped under ice for a long time

in recovered to full recovery and and he

goes if he can do it then everybody

could and it's it's a beautiful to meets

the message is so strong just beautiful

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huberman Orient me again the question

was yeah so the question is have you

done or is it possible to get people to

think that you're holding up a piece of

paper that says now I forget the numbers

my working memory wasn't engaged enough

to do it uh whatever um 348 that's not

what I said earlier when in fact they

are looking at a piece of paper that

says something different is that is that

something that can be done absolutely

absolutely there's a there's actually a

piece where you you have a piece of

paper literally printed a piece of paper

and you control someone's mind you say

uh I'm going to make you see things

distorted you're not going to see

reality the way everybody in this room

incling me will see it starting now and

it's literally a piece of paper that

says two plus

two and everybody can see it the entire

audience can see it's 2 plus two what's

the answer and it goes

16 okay and let's try something easier 1

+ one it goes

24 and he he he's this guy is

cognitively Smart Sharp he's not on

drugs it cannot answer those questions

it's an augmentation of reality and

there that manifests in many forms in

Magic the idea of seeing something that

is in in a

sort you know in the optical illusion

land of what you see is not what you see

and that's probably applicable to every

trick you you'll ever see what you see

it's not what you see it's what I want

you to see and and I I love that and

again the the that Chan Canasta guy

spoke to you about he would go it would

take three cards let's say ace of hearts

King of Clubs seven of Spades three

cards he'll go to a coffee

shop and say uh choose one and they say

King of Clubs thank you go to another

table and he will do it all night and

people what is he doing he's not doing

any magic to them nothing he's just

surveying the audience to see how they

think right and this is information that

we collect uh over the years like

there's a

something called um I can influence you

let's say to take a specific card but it

has to be done in such way that it feels

like it was a free choice it was not a

free choice and the difference between a

good or a great magician and a decent

magician or an okay magician is that one

makes you feel like I chose this card

there is no way you made me pick this

card there is no

way and that's a sort of augmentation

it's you feel like you have control and

yet you don't and you feel it with

conviction you could swear are you sure

that's the one so there's a famous

famous um thing that he he used to do he

would say I can make people change their

mind or

not and he says it up front he says I'm

you're going to choose a card okay any

card you like I'll go to the audience

you point to any person you want they'll

choose another card whatever they choose

will be the card you're thinking

of and then I'll give them 10 seconds to

change their mind and if they do it will

still be correct they can change their

mind as many times as they want and I

don't care once they say that's it

that's the card that will be the card

you're thinking

of how can that be so the truth is and

I'll reveal a little bit about

that there is no trickery here as far as

you know slide of hand or anything like

that he literally was a master

at making people either want to stick to

a

decision or change it he would basically

manipulate their insecurity their ego

something about them to either resist

changing or to really want to change and

and and and to me and I I I I have a

conflict a dilemma about this because my

whole foolest act which if want we can

talk about is really based on on this

conflict or this uh problem I have um

sometimes the the method is way more

beautiful than the effect

itself so that's why I have no problem

telling that Chen did that Chen found a

way with uh using specific you know

language or or gestures or whatnot

without revealing too much to make

somebody either stick to their choice or

change their mind he could literally

control their bias toward one or the

other yes um does it involve touching

their body in any particular way maybe

maybe yeah many many times in your um

performances and the performances of

other mentalists and magicians they will

say you know I pick a number or pick a

card and then uh right before the trick

is about to advance they'll say are you

sure okay oh that's a big one and

they'll say yes I'm sure or no I'm going

to switch okay um and based on what you

told us already um it's clear that the

skilled Mentalist or magician can work

with either scenario is maybe it's a bit

of a it's the improvisation um but what

I want to know is when you look at

somebody's physical body how they sit

their shape um and other features maybe

how they dress how they stand maybe

something about their eyes or their face

can you make better predictions as to

what sorts of numbers they'll pick

whether or not they're going to stick to

their choice or change their choice okay

I think there's a lot of interest in

this and maybe you could um since we're

talking in generic terms and we're not

presenting you with a line of people and

asking um you which which person would

do what um would you be willing to share

what some of those cues are so I'm um

you know me I wear this black shirt I

have other shirts but I don't uh wear

them on camera and um you know I comb my

hair a certain way I sit a certain way I

mean what sorts of predictions emerge

from that or am I striking on the wrong

variables so it's not the big things

that that will reveal to me what cuz I I

do kind of like profile a little bit for

the magic purposes uh what kind of trick

I will do with you and what I can't do

with you what I will do with this guy or

that guy right uh and it's not the shirt

it's not how you wear your hair uh it's

really small things and

uh I can talk about many people that

influence me avner The Eccentric is one

of my favorite

performers um his name is literally The

Eccentric it's a it's a different name

but he goes by alar the Ecentric and

he's a wonderful performer it's it's

even hard to categorize what he does but

he's I'm doing the service a clown a

mime a joggler a magician and I've never

seen someone who's better at what we

call audience management there something

we call audience management is how do

you interact with people and he's able

to

get again I'm I'm butchering his his uh

uh his his class to to something very

simple but he gets three s's from a

person meaning I can ask you

nonverbally to agree to participate with

something I want you to do MH and he

will do small things like just a little

gesture and they he can see if they go

for it he sees if there's that

dance can we is that person comp

complying to something very small or is

he

resisting and then easily I can go to

the next person so and he's a master a

master at uh doing that even breathing

if I breathe a certain way when I this

is it blew my mind when I first learned

from anner it's like when you walk into

a place so you don't see me I'm behind a

curtain something and I walk in and the

first thing I do

is or as opposed

to do I take the breath in or out when I

the first step I take on stage and the

audience in a weird way mimics that

really yeah so if I

go you feel you you kind of tend to

relax with me it now if you want a more

uh exaggerated examp example of that if

you watch a movie and it's really tense

and there's tension you will start

feeling tension right we're we're kind

of like empathy is a big big part of

what we do uh that's why one of the

things I choose to do in my show when I

first start is not to start with the

most amazing magic to blow your mind oh

my God he's amazing it's it's it's more

I I gear the first pieces

towards connecting with you i' rather

say something really endearing funny

connecting truthful honest before I

start trying to blow your mind why I

want to connect with you first so we are

you know a mother will be proud of her

or her son's playing guitar and much

more forgiving if he makes a little

mistake or something but you'll every

little achievement he will make she will

be so proud of him because she has

empathy she wants him to succeed she

wants him to do well so I want you to

adopt me I want you to to feel empathy

towards me I want you to be I'm rooting

for you this makes a lot of sense um I

do some Live Events and I don't think

about whether or not I exhale or inhale

when I get out there but I definitely

try and get out there and just kind of

take it all in and relax and we have

what I hope is a relaxing interesting

conversation and you kind of work with

the amplitude of excitement and and I'm

not thinking about it in any kind of

conscious way but this is actually a

wonderful tool that I hope everyone will

export from this conversation which is

if you ever need to do public speaking

um

have probably a good long exhale as you

get out there will be great everyone

will relax it's also tough for me to see

live theater because oftentimes if it's

not going well for them I feel

embarrassed for them I think people vary

however in terms of their levels of

empathic Attunement some people are very

tuned into the emotional states of

others and some are not so are there

people in audiences assuming a

relatively random array of people that

are fairly rigid like you wouldn't want

to you wouldn't call them up to the

table okay um so when you select someone

to come up in front of the crowd um are

you uh basing that on some level of

empathic Attunement that they're they're

in sync with you absolutely so it starts

with the first thing look you come in

cold the audience as you said uh the

first I quoting what AV here the first

thing they do is they say I hope this

doesn't suck and also the performer says

I hope it doesn't it's not going to suck

uh the the starting point is it depends

expectation could vary you know if

something is really highy and go oh this

is going to be great or you've seen the

artist and you trust them but if you

come in cold you don't know the person

you don't know if it's going to be great

or not you just happened to be there and

there's a magic show let's check it out

there's there's tension there's almost

like they're auditioning you uh I I

wonder if it's going to be worth my time

so and I don't care if people bought a

ticket to see my off broadberry show or

not the first 10 15 minutes it's really

about telling them in so many you

without words but telling them I'm here

for you I'm here to connect with you and

I'm here to to create this some some

wonderful thing that we're going to feel

together I want him to feel that it's

like an intimacy yes and that to me by

the way is way more important than me

fooling people like

if somebody came to me after the show

and said oh wow your magic is

unbelievable I have no idea how you did

it that's the lowest compliment I can

get and thankfully and gratefully often

I get the uh the most common one is you

know the magic was great

but you we liked you they feel connected

to you and I love that because to me the

magic is important it's I want it to be

really deceptive I want it to be you

know impossible and beautiful and

whatnot but to me it's also a vehicle to

connect with people because at the end

of the day that's what it is and that's

the only difference I can have because

there's a lot of magicians a lot of

people can do magic that's that you

can't figure out that's the lowest bar

you fool me good

magician make me feel magic higher and

maybe feel magic and connect it's like

if somebody cannot even explain what I

did in my show and goes you had to be

there

that's something Steve Martin says all

the time you had to be there I can't

tell you with words what it's like to

see his show you have to see it in

person that to me is a very high goal uh

of of uh like I wanted to remember the

experience and the feeling rather than

particular oh the not I want

to to care about what they experienced

emotionally and that's how I recall the

trick that you did outside

U the person who initially connected us

a just absolutely terrific um what I

call close contact uh card magician

Franco pascali yes here in Los Angeles

um he has amazing uh card skills he does

um something with his card tricks I

noticed um I'll go to the magic assle as

often as possible and I just watch and

like to take this in and I try and think

about the Neuroscience behind it as you

can tell and um when he lands a

trick um meaning when the person takes

the card and says oh my goodness you

know like how did you know it's like the

the ace switches the card whatever it is

Franco also acts surprised he joins you

as an audience member momentarily he

goes oh and then and then he goes back

to being the the the magician and I find

that especially important for people to

understand because you do the same and I

always say having studied the lectures

of many many spectacular scientists and

lecturers that the best lecturers in the

classroom obviously are teaching the

material from a place of deep

understanding of the material one would

hope right um so they have Mastery of

the material in some case virtuosity

with the material but as they're

presenting the material to people who

know nothing about

it they themselves are showing their

Delight in the material as if it's the

first time they've ever seen it and so

they are both student and teacher at the

same time and you feel immense resonance

with them that's nice and it reminds me

of the experience of seeing you do magic

or Mentalist work sure um I'm yet to see

you go oh my goodness but I think it's

the um the sense that you're

collaborating in

something and there's this giving over

of self like I'm I trust aie to take me

someplace with this so the resistant

people the people that sort of like I'm

not going to let him fool me right

what's so amazing is that in your shows

often times those people are the ones

that are the ones walking out just

shaking their heads I know because

brought some of them along to your shows

going there's no way there's no way and

yet you you you got them so do the

resistant people serve a role even if

they're not called up of course yeah

what role do Skeptics play in convincing

other people that something happened

that didn't really happen so first of

all the transformation let's somebody's

a Believer and you you show magic and

nice it's it's wonderful we can

celebrate magic together but if

somebody's a skeptic really skeptical

and have had really I and I and I sense

that I could convert them I could

transform them and the audience watches

this transformation so we going from

here to here that's a a wonderful thing

so I every now and then I will recognize

the person who's like and you slowly

start to see him melt and softens it's

almost like a musician at a wedding you

know there are the people that jump up

and dance immediately but if you're a

skilled musician you get that person

that you know their their wife is saying

come on let's dance and M won't move and

then maybe you hit a certain Motif in

the music and the person Taps their foot

a little bit moves their head and then

there are certain people that they won't

dance at all unless their song comes up

and then they like Dart to the dance

floor sounds a little bit like that and

you've captured them you've captured

their emotion you've captured their

willingness you've captured their whole

body willingness to participate in

something that a minute before they were

either too embarrassed too stubborn or

too tired to engage in so here's the

deal magic could be an often is

intimidating I am basically challenging

your intellect I in and some people if

they take it the wrong way they what

they hear is you're telling me that

you're smarter than me you're telling me

you know things I don't know and I'm not

even close to knowing so screw you and

and they they will reject it

aggressively like I've

had thankfully it's a percent uh a time

when I you know we do walk around magic

and I go and some people as soon as they

see me go no no no no thanks they don't

want to see it and and I I to me that

that drove me knots like why don't they

want to see they don't even know what

I'm about to offer you're going to

violate their sense of self trust that's

I think the fear absolutely and and as a

magician or as an artist if I if I use

that

but my goal is to also educate them as I

do the magic that we're creating this

safe space where these things could

happen and it's clear that the I'm I'm

using it for your own good I I you know

I did a whole fullest act exactly about

knowing and not knowing so I uh I'm not

going to spoil too much if people want

to see it they can see it

um I'll tell you a backstory on this if

you don't mind so Tommy the three major

um Heroes of magic are Ju

Tommy wander and Chan Canasta are they

alive still Chan is not not and uh Tommy

past Juan is still kicking butt in

Madrid I think I saw him at the castle

he's very um very um exuberant yeah okay

he's so he's a a hero and and

uh I'm his student so but let's talk

about Tommy for SEC so Tommy for a long

time he he did Magic that that magicians

did not know how it works it's it was so

devious that even magicians did not know

how it works and at some point he

released some DVDs to teach his

magic and the trick is is very simple

you borrow someone's watch it disappears

and there's a table right next to him

with a little box and a ribbon and he

literally grabs the ribbon so he never

touches the Box lifts the Box gives it

to somebody he opens it inside there's

an alarm clock they unscrewed the alarm

clock and inside is their watch no I

mean yes yes but even magicians who saw

that they go I have no idea how it's

done no idea and then I remember

watching the explanation for the first

time and I was thinking that the

method was by far more interesting

intriguing

revealing just beautiful it made the

trick less like I said you should

perform the explanation don't perform

the trick perform the expl and and I I I

I I broke the rules of magic like my My

non- Magician friends will come over and

say let let me showare something and I

show them the trick and they go wow

that's amazing let me show the

explanation and their mind was blown are

you willing to share a little bit of

what the explanation is or is that not

no no okay but but I will explain a

little bit so the EXP I tell what the

explation was that it revealed that he's

an engineer that he can build props that

are like

ingenious uh in some again I'm going

around it but at some point the person

who opens the Box is's doing part of the

trick and he doesn't know it he's he's

creating the trick but he doesn't know

he's contributing something to it um and

it's just beautiful metaphorically

symbolically it's on so it hits so many

levels at least and that planted a SE in

my mind I want to create an effect that

the method is prettier than the trick

itself so I worked for 5 years to create

an explanation a pseudo explanation to a

trick that was just beautiful and it was

an opportunity to I don't have you seen

it I don't know if youve this the one

you did for pen and Teller yeah I um you

can describe it or I can describe it I

mean let see how I remember it um you're

right uh I I have more interest in

listening than speaking um but I'll I'll

tell you how I remember it okay um

you're in a very you're in front of a

very large audience that includes the um

scientist slash uh show guys at pen and

Teller who basically debunk stuff

they're kind of they tried to figure it

out they try and figure stuff out um

some they are asked to pick someone in

the audience they pick a guy as I recall

you wore a green and white sweater wow

you have a good memory yeah um he stands

up and um ask him to pick a card I think

I forget what it is a jack of clubs

perhaps

um let's just say for sake of example

Jack of clubs you said are you sure

you're now on stage mind you there are

hundreds of people in the audience maybe

more and you say are you sure and he

goes yeah and then he goes and you say

are you very sure and he say no I'm

gonna switch so now you first of all you

have a good memory uh that perhaps

perhaps um I've been I've been accused

of I have a little bit of an

audiographic memory for certain things

but not a visual uh memory that's

perfect they're sort of adjacent we

could talk about that sometime at

something helps you if you need to learn

neuron Anatomy that's about it can be

cultivated okay so then he switches the

card let's just call it um uh I don't

know Jack of uh Spades right okay um or

King King of Spades say let's say Jack

of Spades and

then next to you on the table up on the

stage is a a table a round table um with

a plexiglass Box Cigar Box Cigar Box

it's clear no no not yet no not yet

later later okay at first it's just a

wooden cigar wooden box that's right and

a mug a white mug not unlike the mug I

have here except white you take a sip

from that mug and then at some point

during this exchange and then you um

open the box yes and you pull from the

box of course the card that he selected

and everyone say goes oh my goodness how

could that possibly be because obviously

anyone could have been selected in the

audience he switched his choice Etc um

but then you reveal how the trick is

done or at least seemingly reveal it

which is that beneath the Box there's

some uh a bunch of different decks of

cards on 52 on a Turn Style So within

each one a um right and I I missed a

piece of it you you pull out the whole

deck and only one card is turned over

and all the other cards are blank all

the other cards are blank right so

there's more to it so then it turns out

that there are 52 different decks

underneath the table and it's on a Turn

Style so you can actually dial it and

let's let's keep the ending surprise

right so there's there's a surprise

ending to it right so so then it at

least seemingly makes sense as to how AI

did this he has a all the different

option possible options available to him

physically but the audience doesn't

realize that also that the mug by the

way engages a magnet system that allows

him to dial the the deck of cards to the

correct one that allows him to match the

choice so it truly could be any card in

the deck good meaning it's all

the so the straightforward explanation

is it's all physical trickery by way of

props correct so here's the deal uh what

I tried to achieve with this piece is

first to make people feel magic so the

trick it's a good trick you know name

any card the the card he named was

reversed and then it was the only blue

card in the deck and then all the other

cards were blank so it's clearly the

only card he could have named and he did

switch is uh which is amazing detail

that you remembered he did switch from

the King of Clubs to the King of Spades

something like that yeah

now so people felt what it's like to see

a good car trik right and then I wanted

her to feel what it's like to

know and the lesson here is you know you

could satisfy your curiosity oh that's

how it's done and you can go on with

your life and that's it and and that's

what happens to a magician when you

first learn the secrets to

you know something that fooled you

there's

disappointment I remember the first shg

that was revealed to me um it was a

little red handkerchief stuffed into the

hand

gone and I'm like what do it again and

he did it

again he did 10 times in a row I

couldn't and then he explain to me how

it's done and the secret was so simple

and stupid

no didn't that you share with us no no

no but I gotta tell you it was primitive

it was simple and in the moment he

revealed the gimmick that caused the

anchor Chief to

disappear I could not see the trick

again every time he do it's this yeah

it's like falling out of

love something like yeah that's really I

mean a previous guest on the podcast

Carl di Roth one of the best

bioengineers nor scientist and

psychiatrist in the world um went on Lex

Friedman podcast and they were talking

about love and Carl said something

interesting that's very relevant here he

said um he's a colleag you mine at

Stanford very poetic guy um he said you

know love between two people romantic

love that is is one of the few things in

life that we collaborate with someone to

story something into the future H you

know this is different than the love of

a child or a sibling or a parent or a

pet Etc or a friend right that you

you're creating a story that's based on

real experience of past and present but

there's this storying forward of love

that's great and um and falling out of

love involves of course the ending of

the story moving forward but also a in

some cases sadly a revision of the

events of the past I like I it's great

it's it's very close it's very close to

to the feeling you have as a magician

the first time you a tri get exposed

right it disappoints you

because you have a desire for it to be

real the the desire of a young magician

is when I see something like that is

that it's a supernatural power and the F

the first thing you you you understand

is that it's not Supernatural that it's

quite simple and primitive

and it fooled you because of all the

psychology and and the desire like

everything we spoke about my desire to

be to see magic uh the the the fact of

the idea of misdirection which we can

talk about at

length misdirection

means I provide something very

interesting for you to

follow and you will follow that path

because it's the most interesting at the

moment to

follow and in the

background in the sh shadiness of of

Life some dirty stuff happen but you

don't pay attention because I don't

feature it it's not important and I make

you render it is not

important so it does that right and it's

disappointment but there's good news if

you keep up with magic and you start to

understand that to do a trick the

secret the the the actual how you did it

is 1% of the the whole procedure and

there's much more to doing that trick

effectively which is

storytelling

connecting

uh doing it in such way that somebody

cares about it and and that is a

lifetime of of uh pondering and

contemplation

so you

have maybe you'll find analogy with love

again I don't know there's also this

time when you start appreciating it

again appreciate the secret again

because you understand the Nuance you

understand the complexity of this simple

thing and that that's what happened to

me so I in some magic which is the

exception is the table that we spoke

about that I didn't fool us or Tommy W's

table where the effect is so so so

magnificent that you do appreciate it

immediately but those are rare most

magic is simple dirty and to the point

but it

achieves uh something that looks very

complex perhaps now would be the

appropriate time for you to reveal the

the the non reveal of the explanation of

the trick because one of the amazing

things about the trick that you did with

selecting the card that the gentleman in

the audience of pen and Teller had

mentally and verbally selected is that

at the very end after everyone believes

they Now understand how the trick is

done the Turn Style table the magnet the

the coffee mug you proceed to strip away

the the curtain the curtain around the

table and pull out a piece of paper not

52 decks of cards it's a picture or 52

it's a picture which means that the

explanation that they got while entirely

plausible if that's actually what had

happened is not at all what had happened

in other words you pop out at the end

that they don't actually know how it's

done you know how it's done and I'm not

even going to bother to ask you um how

it's done because you're not going to

reveal it in other words people were

misdirected into thinking they

understood the trick and therefore kind

of there's a bit of a let down it's

interesting but it's just mechanics

magnets and and then you reveal that uh

their understanding is actually not real

yes and and the reason I wanted to go

there it's so I wanted them to feel

magic then to feel what it's like to

know something and the the fact that

it's

irreversible you can't unknow a trick

once you know how it's done and then I

what I said look I made a choice I chose

to learn the secrets to Magic and I'm

paying a price for it I cannot see magic

the way you can I cannot enjoy the way

my audience can and in a weird way I'm

experienced magic only through their

eyes when I see somebody goes wow

through you I can experience it but

that's it I

cannot firsthand experience magic the

way you can

so I said I'm not here to make that

choice for you so let me bring you back

to safety to the place you were at it's

a place I envy to mystery and then I

revealed that the whole explanation was

Bogus the whole thing was just another

lie and I'm establishing another thing

that as a magician I have a license to

lie to you and it's okay cuz that's my

job and therefore it makes it honest and

we're collaborating in that to some

extent because when people go to a magic

show they understand that another former

guest on the podcast Rick Rubin who

needs no introduction um but by the way

he's a big fan of magic um has said to

me before um that there are only two

things in life that are absolutely true

one is nature right they're real truths

they're real laws and Rules of Nature

yeah and the other is uh for him uh

professional wrestling because uh Rick

loves professional wrestling he's a

lifetime member of the aw and the WWE

I've gone to see wrestling with him and

the reason he believes it's one of the

few things that's real is that everyone

knows it's not real and so everyone

agrees to collaborate in this story this

theater of these guys hate each other

this woman and this woman are now

friends they're collaborators and so

unlike everything else which is

completely made up and you're not sure

what's real and what's uh fake with

professional wrestling and with nature

it's a real truth I would add to that

magic because when we go to see magic we

want to be

astonished most people do we want our

perceptions to be uh violated right what

we believe is there isn't there Etc um

and yet we are doing this consensually

we we're doing this and so we're

agreeing like let's collaborate in in a

in a lie that there's this thing called

Magic um I guess and that's a pretty ill

defined term in its own right where you

know this idea that physical objects can

be made to disappear violate the rules

of nature of physics um and unless

you're of a certain ilk out there in the

world that simply is not the case the

laws of nature hold so maybe there's

another analogy there because we know

that professional wrestlers are faking

it and we know a magician fakes it too

he fakes Supernatural Powers right

they're doing real things in wrestling

but they're not actually trying to harm

one another correct right they're

collaborating

but it's almost a cargraph fight right

yes I think there's some my

understanding is based on discussions

with Rick and professional wrestlers um

that Rick has introduced me to is that

there's some room for improvisation and

occasionally people will hurt one

another um accidentally sometimes there

are real conflicts that are created yeah

just like in the theater people will

have relationships off stage Etc and it

creates conflict on stage and that's the

where the theater of life meets the

theater of the stage and vice versa so I

would would add to that maybe maybe I'm

wrong um that you do a magic show and

you know an educated person a smart

person who knows that what I do is

trickery

Conjuring uh but every now and then they

might ask I wonder if that was real that

little part he just did maybe that was

real so there's there's a moment I think

in Magic where even the smartest guy who

knows I do tricks I go yeah this is all

tricks but maybe what he just did now

maybe that was real like make it when

you say real you mean violates the rules

of physics so um taking a card holding

it up clenching your fist making it

disappear I'm giving simple kind of

silly mind reading or or is they say

maybe he's able to do those things

psychologically or whatnot right and

maybe that happens also in wrestling

they say yeah it's fake but I think that

moment was real so there's an inkling or

moment where because I think you to

create this

drama and to me that that existed magic

is he real is he fake uh did I figure it

out or did I not figure it out am I Clos

or am I not there's constant conflict in

a magic show that you go in and out of

and I wonder if that happens in resting

as well where you you know it's fake but

maybe there's something that was real or

this happened and that was not planned

so I think that

this just the thinking the fact that you

invested into thinking what is is real

and what is not is intriguing I'd like

to just take a quick break and

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tocom I think um there's a much larger

theme here that we're veering toward and

I'm getting excited because this has to

do with how the brain works and it and

there examples in different domains but

to come to mind now Rick and I sometimes

hang out um here in Los Angeles and that

there's a place where we do sauna and

cold and it looks out on the ocean and

um Rick once turned to me and said um

you know isn't it interesting you know

we know that there're all these animals

under the water dolphins and whales and

all this stuff sharks and uh but when we

see a

dolphin or a group of dolphins or we see

a whale breach it's like people are

just delighted now they're beautiful

animals but often times it's just a tail

slapping the top and I think and he said

I wonder if it's because it reminds us

of how much is going on there underneath

the surface and and I love that because

I think a he's right you know I've done

some snorkeling some scuba diving you

see lots of stuff and it's a it's a

brilliant experience to see all that and

to be a fish of sorts and be breathing

underwater but there is something

Magnificent about seeing an aquatic

animal breach the surface and it and it

goes beyond just seeing the animal it's

like a reminder of all these other

things that are likely happening that

are outside our usual perception and so

that's what comes to mind there

um and then I had another example but I

but I can't think of it now um where oh

it's in um Sports you know I always

think of there's unskilled skilled

Mastery and virtuosity and and

virtuosity in music like yoyo ma um or

in sport I don't know pick up I don't

know Michael Jordan whatever favorite

sport this idea that maybe they don't

even know what they're going to do next

that there's some improvisation at the

level of extreme Mastery where you're

going to see something you've never seen

before and I think that's what Delights

people it's not just about getting the

ball into the end zone or the ball into

the basket or playing a piece of music

it's the idea of something happening for

the first time and maybe again as with

the earlier example that the person

performing The Athlete the musician Etc

the magician the mentalists they

themselves are delighted by what just

happened they didn't even realize it was

going to happen and you collaborate in

this like wow life holds far more than I

experience on my daily perceptual

kind of

framework yeah could very well could be

and I think your shows bring people to

that I I want to um return to a couple

of ideas first of all we've been talking

about emotion and collaboration a lot

sure um we've had a guest on the podcast

David Spiegel he's our associate chair

of Psychiatry at Stanford who does

clinical hypnosis uh which it brings

people into a state of calm plus a very

constrained context where they're more

likely to think about certain things

than others how much of what you do with

an individual group of people in your

craft involves hypnosis constraining the

context in other words eliminating

certain patterns of thinking to make

other certain patterns of thinking more

likely is that like a a storytelling

like you start telling me a story a

horror story or a mystery or a comedy

story I'm shutting down whatever you're

not talking about is that is that

something that you do yeah so so first

of we have theatrical hypnosis people

that do shows where they get they gather

about 20 people stage and they start

making them dance like chickens right um

I've never been full on with with these

type of performances for various reasons

I just I to me that's not the best way

for me to engage with an audience or

or or to manipulate them however there's

some there's certain things that we do

in in in Magic that if you say certain

things in a certain way it will produce

a certain

answer and it amazes me too I like

there's some we call them psychological

forces that you you

see uh a string of words in a certain

order and and it will produce with with

with high

percentage a yes or a no or I want this

and that that and like would you you

want to pick the this deck of cards or

that deck of cards type leading

that could that could be the simplest of

of the idea but it could it could be

even more complex than that um and and

it amazes me because it's almost like a

recipe you follow the recipe put in the

oven boom okay you know but there's in

Magic when I se certain certain things

there's a moment when I I'm waiting for

you to say something and I I I don't

know if you're going to follow what I

just did and then I hear it and I go

there's a joy it's like yes it work and

this reveals something fundamental about

the brain for instance I could imagine

if I have two mugs in front of me for

those listening if I hover my finger on

one of them longer than others and I say

would you like to drink from this mug

and keep it there for 10 seconds or this

one and I just tap the other one briefly

do you think you bias the probability of

which one somebody will pick absolutely

because and that's what that's a great

example ER I could it depends on my

character first I need to know who I'm

doing it to are you the Challenger are

you the guy who's going to go with

anything okay let's say it's the guy who

go with anything think there's a

likelihood he will go with the one you

touch longer but if it's the Challenger

he will say oh I I see what's Happening

Here Andrew is trying to make me take

this one and therefore I'm going to take

that one so and that's that's the

simplest idea of of of challenges and I

could challenge you again and say with

doubt and then I could say are you sure

you want the one that I tapped just

briefly I'm not telling you it that way

but I'd say are you sure and if you say

yes you're challenging me again and now

I'm certain you're a challenger so

you're collecting data basically you're

collecting data and and because I've

done it thousands of times I do the

exact same spell the same you know order

of events and I and I and I get to to

try it and sometimes I say okay let's

phrase it differently you know there's

routines where I do when I I need

someone to say a certain

something and and I don't just rely on

the psychological Force I I have other

Tools in my arsenal of of of

tools and but it surprises me the am the

the percentage this the the

rate uh and that's Chan did a lot he

understood the idea that if people feel

challenged they do this if they feel

like maybe that you're desperate for

them to change they'll act a different

way and again I'm tip toing again

because I don't want to demystify Magic

here I I'm trying to say that there's a

real way for and and you know Daniel

conman and Emma tersi they talk about it

in in their work you know they're

thinking fast and slow for example which

which to us is a magic book how people

make decisions and he they they often

say if you you phrase a question one way

versus another way and even though the

same thing is at stake it's the same

equation if you phrase it this way

they'll prefer that if you phrase it

that way they prefer the other one it

and it makes no sense because that's the

bottom line is like which one do you

want well I think the brain runs

algorithms and um some of it's

historical in how we are raised I give

an example A friend of mine has twins

and I said uh how's it going with the

twins um describe their personalities

and how they differ and he said that one

of his twin daughters um no matter what

you tell her she says no she challenges

you but not as a way to disengage engage

as a way to engage nice interesting yeah

interesting um

and the other one is very willing to

engage in things doesn't challenge but

engages through you know active

collaboration um when we had Chris Voss

a former FBI negotiator here on the

podcast he said one way to get

information from people on in these uh

scenarios he used to do before is

instead of asking them a question you

give a

hypothesis you keep your hair really you

know nice you got great hair you must um

you must like spend a lot of money on

clothes now people will respond he tells

me by either agreeing yes or no I don't

really spend a lot of money you just got

information but you're not asking do you

spend a lot of money on clothes you

basically State a hypothesis yes and

then they are either going to accept or

refute your hypothesis and people almost

reflexively respond to hypothesis about

them from others by wanting to defend

the truth

and that's a way that FBI negotiators

and others get information rather than

ask questions give them hypothesis and

people will defend their truth to the

point of giving up information they

wouldn't otherwise yeah and and if you

want to I know you're here to for me to

reveal my tricks so I'll reveal

something hypnosis they do this quite a

bit and it's a beautiful strategy of of

of doing it they'll make a few

statements and they're simple statements

they're accurate they you can argue with

those statements they they ring true and

you believe them and then maybe the last

thing they're going to say is not quite

true but because of you average the

information and you go okay it's he's

speaking the truth now he's telling us

the truth but in between those

statements there's some inaccuracies

there that are starting to manipulate

you but they're half truth like it's

it's like for example I say the this

this is a round Table Right and uh and

you feel you can feel the light right

even if you close your eyes you could

feel the light and you can even feel

that even if you didn't know that this

is a bigger light than this one because

of the heat now this might be a false

statement but it makes sense and you can

start to feel heat on one side and you

start to go yeah is is it's logical it

it's very sensical therefore it's it's

true but it's a half truth maybe if we

measure that this is a stronger life who

knows but and I and I say you know and

you feel there's a bit of a hum

here and the more you focus on it and

it's get and it's getting louder now

because you're paying attention to it

it's getting louder it's not getting

louder you know actually you're guiding

perception but I'm guide exactly I'm I'm

I'm directing your attention to the

things I want you

to you heard the plane mhm it's an

illusion no it's a real plane so you

know but this is something that

hypnotists do very well you know guiding

you you know going to NLP and all that

it's all related the idea of like um

sounding like they're telling you things

that should make sense and they're

accurate but they're not they're sort of

accurate and it becomes more and more

ridiculous until they tell you dance

like a chicken and then you Dan like a

chicken yeah it's so interesting because

um perception obviously is governed by

the brain at least in part brain and

body but nervous system and we have

essentially two attentional spotlights

meaning we can pay attention to two

things at the same time but probably not

five and we can merge those spotlights

and we can make them more intense so to

speak or we can dim them and make them

more diffuse you know there's a bunch of

things that we can do with attentional

spotlighting what you're talking about

here is attentional spotlighting

bringing people's perception to real

things that are happening but

heightening one's perception of those so

getting more granularity on what's

Happening like right now I'm in contact

with physical contact with a pen in my

hand but I wasn't thinking about how it

feels but if I put all of my perception

there close my eyes and really think

about it the whole nature of the

perception changes corre the physical

object hasn't changed nothing else in

the room has changed but that driving of

attentional spotlighting and

intensity is essentially what governs

our whole reality I think of everything

we're talking about here and I can't

help but think about like

media social media politics you know

very like third rail issues uh things or

top very third rail topics right and yet

this is essentially what we do the brain

people want um a short-hand way of

navigating a very complex world and

media marketing Etc is in large part

designed to capture people's attention

and then funnel it towards some specific

endpoint vote this way by this way don't

vote that way or don't vote that way and

and it's uh I feel

like given our discussion you one has to

wonder to what extent we we are all

living in that what I guess people call

it a simulation it's not a simulation

it's a we are all being biased by these

external forces do you see examples of

quote unquote magic and Mentalist work

at the level of media at the level of

politics without talking about sides or

centers you know of course first of all

I feel like social media has changed the

way audience behaves in the theater tell

me more about that so first of all I

know now you have Tik Tok and Instagram

and and it's really short clips of

information and people go through them

really quickly so there stimulation they

need to be stimulated way more often

than they used to so I can't do a

routine now that really drags with long

monologs and it's slow the speed

changed and and the fact that you know

and I and I I think about this a lot I

mean there's a blackout when when I did

Inner Circle there's a blackout before I

appear so I I come in and I I can still

see people to the very last minute on

their phones and I'm like wow it's the

going from one stimulation to a real

stimulation with almost no gaph there's

not even a second a buffer between this

stimulation to what

I'm and and it always bothers me cuz I

want to to clean their pallet I want to

reset their pallet and it bothers me

that they're on a phone yeah it's like

um going from the the Super Bowl to the

NBA championships or from the ballet to

a rock concert it's like um yeah I

actually have a theory which is that for

those that are willing to introduce gaps

in

stimulation sleep we'll talk more about

sleep um rest walks where we're not

looking at our phones or just kind of um

not necessarily bored but that those

gaps we know we know with certainty are

when the brain both processes

information stabilizes information that

we've learned and comes up with new

ideas there it's it's almost like

nowadays if you want to get really good

at some craft just introduce more gaps

in between intense focus and learning

around that thing and exposure to that

thing I I I couldn't be more certain

about this it's it's true and again Juan

again Tamar talks

about the the the the power of pauses

and and one of the things we try to do

is that people will

embed um a memory so it's not just that

you

encode the information and you want them

to store it you want to start long term

and to be able to recall what they've

seen now if you move from one action to

the other it's just not going to work so

there's a thing that Juan does where

he's like he's holding a card and he

says can you see the reflection in my

glasses and every's like what is he

doing look do you see reflection and and

meanwhile he's holding a pling card to

point to towards the glasses and then at

some point he places the card on the

table and accidentally en knocks a a

glass filled with water everywhere and

people p like they start cleaning it and

and it's

like it's inter a huge Interruption to

what just happened and then he says uh

does anybody know what card this

is and most of the times nobody knows he

goes you never saw this card and they go

no you never showed it to us oh I never

showed it to you and there was one event

where he did where he replayed the video

to them says look I'm holding it for 15

seconds in front of you in a very

awkward way

and they don't remember it because

something dramatic happened immediately

after no there's no moment for them to

isolate the two events and the other

event was way more uh impactful and

therefore more memorable that it erased

the small memory the small event the the

there's a big event and a smaller event

and that took over that's why maybe I

don't people crash into they have an

accident you know whatever they don't

remember the 10 or 5 seconds before it

kind of erases it m

so we often when we do magic we do want

to give him a moment to really relax and

to digest what they've just seen so they

can store it very well if it's something

you want them to store but if it's

something you want them to prefer to

forget than creating a dramatic moment

adjacent to it and with no Gap it's the

way to go yes this is we clut it we clut

their mind with information when we

don't want to store it we will slow down

and feature it and give it enough time

to breathe and live when we want them to

record it so the speed the emphasis the

pauses all of those things are

manipulating how they remember things

can I share with you a little bit of

Neuroscience please bit knowledge this

is relevant both to what you just said

and to learning of any kind there's a

phenomenon called Gap effects which are

very well demonstrated in neuroscience

and psychology of learning um but but

before I explain those it's really

important to know that when we learn

we're exposed to something and then the

actual rewiring of Connections in the

brain occurs typically during sleep or

rest periods away from the learning

there's the stimulus just like exercise

you don't get better heart you know V2

Max and muscle strength Etc during the

exercise there's an adaptation that

occurs later and with uh learning of

cognitive material or information of any

kind even if it's very emotionally

impactful experience or information the

rewiring of connections occurs later

typically in sleep or sometime later now

during sleep the replay of the memory

occurs but at a rate about 20 or 30

times faster and for some reason Nobody

Knows Why in Reverse okay so a string of

numbers 1 2 3 4 5 six seven in sleep is

played 30 times faster and SE 7654321

nobody's NOS why this is the way the

brain encodes information about space

about information

uh of any kind now Gap effects are the

very well demonstrated effect of let's

say you're teaching me how to um shuffle

cards or a sequence of numbers or scales

on a piano I'm practicing I'm practicing

I'm practicing but somebody figured out

that if every once in a while there's a

gap introduced where I cannot perform

the rehearsal I do nothing the brain

does the same thing the hippocampus a

center in the brain required for memory

and encoding of new memories plays that

same sequence at 20 to 30 times faster

in

Reverse so this way so what this means

is that when we introduce gaps the brain

is still processing the information but

much faster and the introduction of the

Gap somehow allows whatever we just

learned to be

encoded far more than if we don't

introduce a gap which is exactly what

you just said but with a bunch of nerdy

Neuroscience speak to it but this has

been shown for music for math for

conceptual knowledge Etc and what it

says to me is that if we want to learn

things controlling the Cadence and the

um the availability of gaps and the

adjacency like how densely cluttered or

spaced out things are is key and um I'll

just share briefly and forgive me

because I'm going long here but um the

way I remember the video of you with pen

and Teller and the green and white

sweater and a few other you took a nap

right after no what I do is I watch

something or read something and I

sometimes highlight and take notes but

then what I do is I close my eyes

sometimes I take a walk and I just think

about what I just saw now I have a

problem and I was recently referred to

as neuroatypical which I'm starting to

wonder if that's true but you know uh

I'll get assessed and we'll see um that

oftentimes irrelevant details are what

get encoded to memory as opposed to the

core feature but um we'll see um I I

like to think the core the core

components are what I remember um but

often details that seem irrelevant get

encoded like I can remember details of

things that are kind of maybe trivial um

to most so I these Gap effects are a a

real neurobiological phenomenon there's

no question about it and I suppose I

should pause to let that sink in I know

and people should take a nap right after

this go sleep and think about this

conversation I think it's so interesting

because so that explains something about

encoding of information but the causing

people to forget something is equally

important so often times when you do

tricks or when other magicians and

mentalists do tricks I notice that

you'll get people to count with you okay

let's all right let's just count the

cards count them with me it'll be one

two three is there something about the

counting itself or the Cadence of the

counting that is that is um valuable yes

uh we we try to create tension you know

it's a drum roll think of it as a drum

roll that all the way to the punchline

um and you you're trying to create this

tension oh my oh my God oh my God and

then it happens right and on the

relaxation the moment right after that

when you relax that's the moment to do

the things you don't want them to encode

the those are the the most vulnerable so

in other words when you go to a magic

show Do Not Laugh do not relax remain

tense and you'll be good but the moment

you

relax you're off guard you're not

scrutinizing you're relaxing uh um so we

we do play a lot and slini was a master

of that the idea of tension and

relaxation so those are just one of the

tools that we would use in order to do

what we need to do at the right spot

look here here's an interesting

example you've heard the term

misdirection I think every person in the

world have heard and understands the

idea of misdirection a magician is

misdirecting you and yet that

information does not help you in the

real

world right you know the concept you

know it exists you know a magician will

make you look at the wrong place at the

wrong time and you would or maybe the

right place at the right time and you

would still

follow in other words knowing the

principle knowing that he's doing

it it's still effective and that is

amazing so to me that is

uh the reason I don't TR to enrich

people people's knowledge about magic

and to give a little bit of information

of of behind a curtain the things that

magicians say oh we're going to you know

there's a beautiful saying that I just

love and I don't know who who's uh

responsible for this beautiful quote but

I love it I quote it all the time uh

people think that magicians are guarding

the secrets from the audience but it's

the other way around we are guarding the

a audience from the

secrets so um because we know that once

you know how it's done you won't enjoy

it but I believe also that there's a

level of

knowledge that you can know about magic

that next time you see magician you

would enjoy it more because you

understand that to

do one car trick could take months and

months of work and we we think about

every word in every move and how we

interact and how we you know hook you

into wanting to be fold create the

desire for you to see magic and it's

such an intricate process so maybe you

know revealing revealing a little bit

about magic is not a bad thing so you

understand the complexity of this art

which unfortunately is invisible art cuz

a Pianist sure you can see how skillful

I am but if you come to me after show oh

you're so fast with your hands that's an

insult I want you to say but you never

touched

anything so it's it's it's a bit of a a

conflict here it's like uh the show that

I saw that you did in New York right off

Washington Square Park um uh you didn't

touch any of the cards or materials the

audience did it all for you which are

the inner circle you had a people

actually maneuvering the cards and doing

things they weren't collaborating with

you in fact it made it far less like

that you ought to be able to do what you

were doing um which is which is

remarkable I think that um you know as

you're describing this I I can't help

but feel that

the understanding of mechanism or how

it's done just a little bit is is a

little bit of what I've tried to do with

the podcast where I think people

obviously want to know what to do for

their health but if they understand a

little bit of the mechanism behind it

maybe a lot of the mechanism in some

cases then I think it enriches their

understanding and gives them

flexibility when things are perhaps not

you know optimal sort of like someone

learning a recipe uh versus

understanding why you add a little bit

of baking soda so that when there isn't

any baking soda maybe there's an

alternative or you make an adjustment

someplace else right that's a what a

real cook can do um as opposed to

somebody just following a recipe I think

that with magic this takes us back to

the first question I think with magic um

it's so exciting to me that the magician

The Mentalist themselves might not get

it right like if I know you're going to

get it right it's exciting because for

if I bring someone else along that's

never seen it before but what I want to

know is that you know the trapeze artist

could fall exactly I don't want them to

fall but that the idea that they could

fall is what makes it really excited

absolutely and we fake it a lot there's

a lot of times where I will

intentionally create a scenario where it

seems like it's not going right right

you know I'm in trouble and I need to

get out of it and you go he's okay he

he's good good but this one no and then

then you realize it was a part of the

illusion and this is like even even the

trouble was an illusion don't trust

anything sorry I didn't mean to

interrupt there you paused for me to

remember and I inter want to digest it

right this is like this is built into

every script of every romantic comedy

and every action movie like everything's

you know there's a challenge then

there's moving forward and then things

are about to go well and then oh my

goodness they're on the wrong trains

it's going to be and then that's the

tension build and then there's

resolution of some sort and then

sometimes there's a Twist at the end

where the resolution isn't there and

that's how you get a SQL right it's it's

kind of the same yes thing I I wonder um

and I hope that someday Neuroscience

will understand the kind of what the

core algorithms in the brain are for a

story a story that involves a question

and a hypothesis some

characters and some trajectory a

potential you know error and then some

resolution and then maybe it opens up

the possible possibility of mystery

again because as you describe a magic

trick or a mentalist act it seems to

follow that sequence you introduce the

people the cards the props Etc and then

there's a story and here's what's

interesting I see this in comedy also

one of the things that's exciting is

when we think we know what's going to

happen next and it's it's either that we

are very surprised there's a violation

of the expectation but even more

interesting sometimes is when we're like

no no no no no this where we think that

something's going to happen and you're

actually taking us towards that

unbelievable possibility this is

something I find amazing that you know

sometimes even when we expect something

or especially when we expect something

if it's an outrageous outcome there's no

way that's when we are most excited CU

we're involved we're part of the drama

so I love what you said about the idea

of a recipe right following verbatim in

a passive way I don't know how it works

but eventually I think this would lead

me to a

cake somehow as opposed to understand

what what the chemistry is and why this

happens and why this and that I think

that um you become more invested and you

are part of the act so it's it's almost

like I I am obsessed you know also with

painting something that I I I I just do

often and I remember I can easily recall

the experience I had be when I went to a

museum and watched some art before I

painted and the way I view it

today as a painter as someone who's

touched pigments mixed them put them on

a on on a canvas or paper and all of a

sudden I look at it a little

differently and I think it changes the

interaction

that I have with the painting because I

understand the language I understand the

struggle I understand the challenge

understand all of that and it's the same

with anything like when you read one of

my favorite reads of all time and I to

this date is ven Go's uh

letters I remember you know I saw ven go

before I saw it

after and the story and that's that's

why I think we can talk about AI for a

second but the story of of the letters

with the paintings make them complete

different images when I see now the

sunflowers or the chairs or the

Landscapes and I have some context to go

by uh they become a a part of a much

bigger story and to me that it enhances

the um the experience so a few friend

you know me and a couple of my friends

uh went to a museum the met and there

was a beautiful wooden

sphere half opened like that and the

detail was like you need a microscope to

see and to appreciate the delicate

carving of the wood and we all looked at

it in awe it was like it's

amazing and I said to them you know you

look at it and you you see the year it's

from the 1800s and you go wow the

technology they had in 1800s to do that

and the patience and the time all of it

is part of the the artwork but if I told

you I we fold you um this was 3D printed

20 minutes ago it took about five

minutes and it's we can make a million

of them right now it's the exact same

object it looks as

impressive but the story is different

and I think that is Again part of the

experience we have a recipe when you

understand it the experience you have is

different so I I I do I do believe that

knowledge

um really can enhance an experience

change it completely so that's something

I I'm being on uh stories seem to be the

the kind of bento box that arranges

information best in my opinion you know

uh for those that don't know bento box

right like a like a box a little

different compartments and you have

different things and you know the the

brain can okay let's just a some some

first principles ground truths um we can

only perceive a certain number of things

at any one time but we're sensing tons

of information so the brain is a

selective filter and a prediction

machine and so and it does a bunch of

other things to Keep Us Alive but that's

basically it um all my Neuroscience

colleagues are probably like wait wait

wait but what about this okay but that's

that's pretty much it Keep Us Alive

predict things and perceive certain

things that we can sense not others

things outside our sensory apparatus

like infrared vision and sensing you

know certain forms of of heat and

electromagnetic energy some yes some no

depends on what animal you are so okay

so stories and the sequencing of things

seems to be one way in which we best

learn information from the time we are

very little we are read stories and um

and our lives play out like stories so I

think that the idea that um additional

information about context this is from

the 1800s not just the box that it's

encapsulated in but it gives you a sense

this is important it's old it tells you

this was harder to do back then uh hard

presumably and and as you said that it

brings to mind all these ideas about

what went into that like the pyramids

they're very very interesting but

especially interesting given when they

were built exactly right and what that

meant for certain people and and not for

others so I think that so there's that

which I think is so key because it

extends way past magic is really about

how the brain works and learns

information and perceives the world in

moments and what we remember what we

don't

remember and then there's another thing

I'd like to touch into and maybe we

touch into this first which is that you

mentioned that you paint yes

so I've come to learn that many people

who are virtuosos in their craft as you

are

have hobbies or practices or things that

they do that are sort of adjacent to

craft C I think Joanie Mitchell the

singer often talked about painting as a

way to get into a mindset of singing

even though that wasn't the specific

intention it just kind of LED there a

little bit like a like a sprinter might

have I don't know some Dynamic

stretching that they do that sort of

like semi-related but not the main thing

or maybe they would listen to music and

kind of Bounce Around to the music maybe

that's a better example so it's not

directly in line with the practice but

it puts the brain circuits that are

required for that practice into a

certain mode uh for you maybe it's

painting for me it's drawing

um how often do you paint what do you

paint and do you paint with the

intention of anyone ever seeing your

paintings yes I I'm not sure I I post

them uh in my show it was an opportunity

for me to make a portrait of all of my

heroes so it was a mini exhibition as

people walked into the theater to see

all those portraits of the people that

affected me touch you know influenced me

and so forth magicians to M I would say

90 most of them anner is was there too

uh he's not a magician per se he's also

a magician but yeah mainly magicians

Houdini was melini uh Tommy wander Chan

Canasta David Blaine uh people that

really are part of who I am today MH so

to me that's that's an aspect of its own

why why do I paint these people is

because it's an opportunity for me to

meditate with these people that I adore

and owe so much too um but why do I

paint first of all it's intuitive I I

didn't so it's was not a cerebral

decision oh I I I think I need something

to supplement my life you know and I I

need painting uh I always love to work

with my hands I always love to draw I

love imagery I love design um and I I

always gravitated towards wanting to

paint and by the way most of the things

I do they're not like I don't look at

them through a scientific point of view

it's I do them intuitively and then

later I understand in a more scientific

way why or I ask scient scientific

questions why am I doing those things

and I think for art is

important start with intuition start

with what makes sense to you or feels

right and then start asking questions

the wise and how's and what does it mean

you know painting in itself there's lots

of science you know if you if if you mix

blue with yellow every time you're going

to get green that's science but when you

paint I think you need to forget about

the science it needs to live in the back

of your mind and you need to to to let

your I don't know what your spirit your

your your mojo take over and and paint

with you so but I started to learn so

much about magic from

painting and I tell you why you need a

bird eye every now and then you need to

detach yourself from something that you

do so so much of and you build all these

biases right when I approach a trick or

work on a trick I I come with a similar

approach you know it's almost it becomes

formulate and formula is poison for

art when you when you approach something

with a predetermined you know

preconceived notion of of doing

something you you might repeat yourself

so much that it's boring and you're not

allowing yourself to grow and to maybe

find things that you never knew existed

in you or outside of you so painting in

a weird way when I when I read

biographies of let's say Lucy and Freud

which who I really

love and he's talking about

art at some point I I feel like I'm

reading a magic book it's so applicable

to Magic he's talking about intention

he's talking about you know he I'm going

to misquote him for sure he says every

time I approach a canvas I approach it

as if it's the first painting I've ever

painted and this is to take it even

further the painting the painting that

was ever

painted um because he wants to approach

it with the attitude of a student with

the naive with the virginity of of first

time so you don't repeat the same stake

oh I you do this skin oh I've done this

before I can do this again you kind of

want to divorce yourself from all these

things you know and start the the search

again from as close as possible to this

first time because there's something

beautiful about that there's a technique

that painters use Andrew W did it a lot

um he will paint the painting it would

look at it it says something is wrong

about it and I don't know what something

is there's this something about this

painting that just does not work then he

will take the painting