AMA #8: Balancing Caffeine, Decision Fatigue & Social Isolation

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ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,

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where we discuss science and science-based tools

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for everyday life.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor

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of neurobiology and ophthalmology

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at Stanford School of Medicine.

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Today is an Ask Me Anything episode, or AMA.

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So without further ado, let's get

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to answering your questions.

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The first question is about the pros and cons of daily caffeine

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consumption.

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The question reads, what is your opinion on the net benefit

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of daily caffeine consumption?

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And how can somebody determine if daily caffeine consumption

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is right for them?

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Well, first of all, I did an entire episode about caffeine.

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You can find that by going to hubermanlab.com.

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At that website, you can put in caffeine into the search

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function, and you'll find links to that episode

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in all the formats--

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YouTube, Apple, Spotify, et cetera.

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And it's timestamped, of course.

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You can navigate to the particular topics

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most of interest to you.

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However, for sake of this discussion,

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I can summarize a few of the key points.

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The most important thing to understand

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is that for most adults--

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so that is people about age 18 to 20 and older--

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daily caffeine consumption is not

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going to be a problem provided it does not induce anxiety,

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and certainly provided that it not induce anxiety or panic

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attacks, and provided that it does not

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disrupt your nighttime sleep.

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This is why I always recommend that if you

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are going to consume caffeine in any form, coffee, tea, soda,

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or otherwise, that you try not to ingest caffeine

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within the eight and ideally within the 10

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or even 12 hours prior to bedtime.

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That's because the half life of caffeine

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is such that even if you are able to,

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for instance, have a cup of coffee

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around 3:00 PM or 4:00 PM and then

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fall asleep around midnight, the architecture of the sleep

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that you get is going to be disrupted.

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For instance, it is very important

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that you get sufficient amounts of both slow wave deep sleep

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as well as rapid eye movement sleep each night.

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And if you consume caffeine too close to bedtime--

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and here, I'm defining to close as anywhere from 8 to 12 hours

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before going to sleep--

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chances are you're not going to get as much rapid eye movement

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sleep or slow wave sleep that you would otherwise.

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And it is the amount of rapid eye movement sleep

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and slow wave sleep that, together,

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lead to whether or not you feel you had a good night's

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sleep in terms of your next day alertness and cognitive

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abilities.

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Now, again, some people may find that they

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can drink caffeine in the late afternoon, maybe even at night,

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and still fall asleep.

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But I promise you, even if you're in that category,

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you will sleep far better, meaning the architecture

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of your sleep will be better, and you

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will feel far more rested the next day

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if you abstain from caffeine within the eight to 12 hours

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prior to bedtime.

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And I should also say that none of us are perfect,

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myself included.

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I will sometimes have a cup of coffee in the late afternoon,

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and sometimes that will cause me to stay up a little bit later.

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Sometimes it won't.

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I don't think you want to obsess or worry

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too much about having some caffeine every once

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in a while in the late afternoon if you

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are still able to fall asleep, but don't

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make it a regular habit.

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Now, as far as we know, there is no drawback

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to consuming caffeine on a daily basis,

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again, provided it does not disrupt your nighttime sleep

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and provided that does not induce anxiety.

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In fact, most of the world consumes

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caffeine every single day.

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The current estimates are that 90%--

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that's right, 9-0, 90%--

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of adults throughout the world consume a caffeinated beverage

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every single day.

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That's a staggeringly high number,

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making caffeine the most popular drug on the planet.

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In fact, because of the way that caffeine works--

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and just to remind you how it works--

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it effectively blocks adenosine receptors.

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Adenosine is a molecule that builds up in your brain

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and body more and more according to how long you've been awake.

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It makes you feel sleepy.

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Caffeine blocks the adenosine receptor,

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and then when it is dislodged from that receptor, whatever

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adenosine has built up and is around can then

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bind to the adenosine receptor.

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It makes you feel very sleepy.

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That's the caffeine crash.

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So if 90% of the adult population of the planet Earth

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is consuming caffeine every day, that

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means 90% of the adult population of planet Earth

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is blocking their adenosine receptors

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for some portion of their daily life,

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and then their adenosine is binding to the vacant receptor

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once the caffeine has dislodged.

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And why are 90% of adult humans consuming caffeine every day?

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Well, to feel more energized, more focused,

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to have more both cognitive energy and physical energy.

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Now, of course, most people are not walking around thinking,

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oh, caffeine gives me more energy more focus, et cetera.

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Most people are consuming caffeine every single day

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and are consuming caffeine every single day in order

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to feel, quote, unquote, normal, to be

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at their baseline level of cognitive ability,

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and physical energy, and so on.

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In fact, if you look at the data on caffeine consumption, what

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you'll find is that caffeine actually

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is a cognitive enhancer.

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It can improve learning and memory.

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It can increase physical energy.

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It can increase mental and physical stamina.

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But a feature of those studies that's not often discussed

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but that was, however, discussed in the full episode on caffeine

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is that studies of caffeine typically

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are done by taking chronic caffeine users

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and then having them abstain from caffeine for some period

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of time, usually four days to two weeks, in which time

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they undergo caffeine withdrawal.

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They do not feel well.

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They get foggy headed.

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They have less energy.

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There's some malaise, sometimes even some mild depression.

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And then what they do is they have

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people take caffeine, and take a cognitive exam,

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or do some physical activity and compare their performance

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to what it was when they were in the withdrawal state.

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Another typical form of study on caffeine

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is to take people who are naive to caffeine

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or who never take caffeine, and then have them ingest caffeine,

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and then measure their cognitive and/or physical performance.

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And in both cases, you see improvements.

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What I'm saying here is that daily caffeine consumption

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is not going to lead to improvements

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in cognitive ability or improvements

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in physical ability above one's baseline

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unless you either abstain from caffeine

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for some period of time, typically four days to two

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weeks prior, or you are not somebody

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who typically ingests caffeine.

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In other words, 90% of the world's population

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is drinking caffeine on a daily basis

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to be at their normal level of mental and physical

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functioning.

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So the question was, is there a net benefit

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to daily caffeine consumption?

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And here I can reliably say, provided

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you don't suffer from anxiety attacks or lack of sleep

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from the caffeine consumption, provided that you're

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mindful of not ingesting caffeine too late in the day,

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there doesn't seem to be any big drawback to drinking caffeine

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on a daily basis.

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However, there doesn't seem to be any great benefit,

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at least in terms of direct effects

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on cognitive or physical ability.

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So I realize this is a little bit of a convoluted answer,

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but we have to be honest with one another here.

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Caffeine is a performance-enhancing drug,

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but only when compared to the noncaffeinated state.

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And 90% of the adult population of the world is caffeinated.

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So adding more caffeine above what you would normally consume

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is certainly not going to allow you to think better and perform

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better physically.

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Here's a useful way to think about caffeine.

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Most people can pretty well tolerate doses of caffeine,

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anywhere from 100 milligrams to 300 milligrams.

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It depends on body weight and depends

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on your tolerance, tolerance, of course,

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based on how familiar you are with the effects of caffeine

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and how regularly you consume it.

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A typical cup of coffee, which, by the way, does not exist.

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Depending on the vendor, depending

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on how much water-to-coffee ratio one uses,

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depending on whether or not it's French press or it's pour over,

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the type of coffee, et cetera, all of that

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is going to determine the total amount of caffeine

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in that coffee.

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But we can set some outer bounds on the total amount of caffeine

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that likely exists in a cup of coffee,

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and it's probably somewhere between 100 milligrams--

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that would be on the weaker side for a six or eight ounce cup

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of coffee--

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out to about 300 milligrams for the equivalent

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six to eight ounces of coffee.

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But if you were to brew your coffee very, very strong

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or, like me, occasionally throw a shot of espresso in there,

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too, you could get that number up

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to 400 or 500 milligrams of caffeine.

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I personally tolerate caffeine pretty well.

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I've been drinking caffeine since I was a teenager, mostly

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in the form of brewed unflavored yerba mate tea.

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It's important to stay away from the smoked varieties of yerba

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mate if you're going to get your caffeine from your yerba mate.

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The smoked varieties can be carcinogenic.

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The nonsmoked varieties don't seem to have that property.

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But there's a lot of caffeine in yerba mate,

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so I'll drink yerba mate and have for many, many years.

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Or I'll drink black coffee, or espresso, or espresso

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americano, things of that sort.

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That's my preferred source of caffeine.

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Most people are drinking coffee to get their caffeine

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and, I would say that, if you are

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going to drink your caffeine, drink it

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in the early part of the day, as I mentioned earlier.

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I am a big proponent of delaying your first caffeine

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intake until at least 90 minutes after waking in order

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to avoid the afternoon crash.

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I've talked a lot about this on the podcast.

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There are a lot of clips on the internet explaining

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the rationale behind that.

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And if you do experience an afternoon crash in energy,

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I do recommend delaying your morning caffeine intake to 90

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to 120 minutes after waking.

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Now, for people that want to get more

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of a true cognitive-enhancing and performance-enhancing

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effect from caffeine, again, you're

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going to have to abstain from caffeine for about four days.

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For regular caffeine drinkers, that's going to be difficult.

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That is going to lead to headaches.

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That's going to lead to brain fog.

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That's going to lead to feelings of malaise.

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In fact, the last time I took four days off

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or even a week off from caffeine consumption

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was when I was sick.

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I don't get sick very often, but when I am sick,

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I generally abstain from caffeine.

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And sometimes I wonder whether or not

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the malaise I feel from whatever viral or bacterial thing

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I might be dealing with when I'm sick

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is, in part, the malaise of caffeine withdrawal.

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I certainly notice I feel much better when

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I return to drinking caffeine, but that

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tends to coincide with feeling relief

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from whatever sinus symptoms and other symptoms I

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might have been experiencing from the illness.

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So it's not a good experiment.

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I can't tease apart those variables.

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So the short answer is, for most adults,

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there does not seem to be any major downside to consuming

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caffeine.

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And there have been scattered reports here and there

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in humans, showing that ingesting caffeine can increase

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dopamine receptors, which will effectively

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allow you to get more out of the dopamine that you produce.

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This is why caffeine has a mood elevating as well

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as energy-elevating effect.

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I should point out that some people just cannot tolerate

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caffeine.

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It makes them too jittery, too anxious.

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They start sweating.

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They get heart palpitations.

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It's very hard for these people to build up a tolerance

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to caffeine that allows them to enjoy it.

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These are the people that can even

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feel a fluttering of the heart and a lot of energy

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left from decaf coffee, something

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that, to me, is just a foreign.

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Concept but some people are just that sensitive to caffeine

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that even the small amounts of caffeine in chocolate or decaf

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coffee make them feel too alert.

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And they should abstain from caffeine.

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I don't think they are, in any way,

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harming their health by abstaining from caffeine.

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Then there's the issue of children, and adolescents,

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and teenagers, and young adults ingesting caffeine.

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And I covered some of this in the episode about caffeine,

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but there's been a lot of debate as to

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whether or not caffeine can cause osteoporosis,

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whether or not it can leach calcium out of the bones,

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whether or not can stunt growth.

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Frankly, there's not a lot of evidence

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for those sorts of claims, and yet the developing brain

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is a very tender and malleable environment.

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And somebody who started off his career

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as a developmental neurobiologist,

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studying developmental brain plasticity and wiring,

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it does sort of make me cringe to think about children younger

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than the age of, say, 14 ingesting

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large amounts of caffeine in any form-- soda, coffee, tea, et

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cetera.

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Despite the fact that there's very little evidence

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that it can stunt their growth, I don't personally

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like the idea of the young brain being bathed

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in an adenosine receptor antagonist, which is

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effectively what caffeine is.

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As much as possible, one wants the developing brain

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to develop in a milieu of unencumbered, nonchemically

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encumbered interactions between neurotransmitters

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and their receptors, unless, of course,

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there's a clinical need for a prescription drug,

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or a supplement, or some modification

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of a nutritional program specifically

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to up or down regulate the dopamine system

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or up or down regulate the serotonin system.

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But those are the sorts of decisions

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that really should be made in close oversight

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and recommendations by a psychiatrist.

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So the short answer around daily caffeine consumption

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in young people, meaning 14 and younger,

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is avoid it if you can.

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Have your children avoid caffeine if they can.

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The occasional bit of caffeine is probably not

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going to be a problem.

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The amount of caffeine in small amounts of chocolate, probably

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not going to be a problem.

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But caffeine in the form of energy drinks, sodas, coffee,

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tea for children younger than 14 just

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seems like a bad idea from everything

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we understand about brain wiring and the trajectories of brains

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that develop with a lot of chemical adjustment

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from other sources, like caffeine.

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Now, for kids age 15 to, say, 18 or 20, a lot of brain wiring

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is still occurring, but a lot of it has been completed.

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So probably not as risky to consume caffeine

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every once in a while or maybe even on a daily basis.

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But there are two--

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I think there are great advantages

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to limiting the amount of caffeine that one ingests.

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And of course, in the adolescent and teen years,

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nowadays a lot of kids are consuming

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energy drinks and soda.

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And some of those energy drinks and so

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does contain a lot of caffeine, anywhere

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from 200 to 800 milligrams of caffeine.

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And nowadays, more sodas and energy drinks

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contain other things like amino acid precursors

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to neuromodulators, like dopamine.

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So for instance, a lot of energy drinks

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now contain L-tyrosine, which is a precursor to dopamine.

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A lot of them will contain L-theanine.

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I've talked about L-theanine as a supplement that

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can promote more restful sleep if taken

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30 to 60 minutes before sleep.

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The reason why a lot of energy drinks, and sodas,

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and, frankly, now coffee brands are including theanine

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in the coffee, or energy drink, or soda

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is because it tends to have a mild anxiety-reducing effect.

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And it reduces the jitters that caffeine creates.

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And so that's actually a trick that these companies are using

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in order to get people to ingest more caffeine because,

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by including the theanine, it's preventing the kid or adult

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from feeling too jittery.

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And therefore, they can continue to consume that drink

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without feeling like they're overstimulated.

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So if I were to take the parental neuroscientist adult

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voice here, I would say avoid caffeine intake

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as much as you can until you're about 18 years old.

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But I'm realistic.

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I realize that adolescents and teens age, say,

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14, or 15, out to 18, and older are

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going to be consuming caffeine in the form of energy drinks

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and sodas.

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But reducing the total amount of caffeine

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that one is ingesting in those years,

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it just seems really advantageous,

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again, m all the same reasons I mentioned earlier.

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You don't want the young brain bathing

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in a bunch of exogenous, meaning externally introduced

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neurochemicals or in things like theanine or L-tyrosine.

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If you're going to indulge in caffeine, or in energy

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drinks, or theanine, or L-tyrosine, for that matter,

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that's the sort of thing that probably is best left

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for people 18 and older.

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And even there, if one finds that caffeine is for them,

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as do I, I think always best to try and get your caffeine

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from a clean source, a clean source meaning

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something that contains just coffee or just tea.

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Again, this isn't a knock on energy drink specifically,

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but you really have to make sure that whatever energy

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drink you're going to consume, you know what's in it.

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You recognize what the different ingredients do.

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And you recognize the potential of ingesting

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those ingredients chronically over and over again.

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And I've talked to a little bit about this

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on previous podcasts, and I'll get into this.

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Again, maybe we'll do an entire episode about energy drinks

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because they are so commonly consumed nowadays.

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Now, getting back to the original question

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about daily caffeine consumption,

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this person goes on to say that, for them--

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OK, this is their personal experience--

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after a few weeks of consumption of daily caffeine,

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the negatives start to outweigh the positive ones.

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They're getting poor-quality sleep,

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lack of appetite, anxiety, et cetera.

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And when they don't consume caffeine,

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they find it a lot easier to be mindful,

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and their meditation practice is much better.

Time: 1074.49

But they're lethargic and less motivated.

Time: 1076.608

So what they're describing are all the classic symptoms

Time: 1078.9

of caffeine overuse, probably not abuse in this case,

Time: 1082.09

although caffeine can be truly abused,

Time: 1084.09

people taking caffeine pills, et cetera in large quantities.

Time: 1088.142

We're not talking about that.

Time: 1089.35

But this person is describing the classic pattern

Time: 1091.89

of overuse of caffeine and the classic pattern of withdrawal

Time: 1095.815

from caffeine when they stop taking it.

Time: 1097.44

So what should somebody like this do?

Time: 1099.763

And I think that's an important question

Time: 1101.43

to answer because I think a lot of people

Time: 1102.69

fall into this category.

Time: 1103.69

They drink caffeine every day.

Time: 1106.26

They're no longer getting the performance-enhancing effect

Time: 1108.81

of caffeine, so they're taking it just

Time: 1110.393

to be normal or feel like they can focus normally and have

Time: 1113.07

normal amounts of energy.

Time: 1114.37

But then if they try and come off, they feel worse.

Time: 1116.85

There are a couple of ways to do this.

Time: 1118.433

You can taper your caffeine intake off

Time: 1120.81

over the course of four to seven days.

Time: 1122.942

But most people don't have the discipline

Time: 1124.65

or don't want to spend the time doing that.

Time: 1126.52

But if you want to, the way you would do that is you

Time: 1128.687

would cut it by about 10% or 15% per day.

Time: 1131.652

You could do that by volume, or you

Time: 1133.11

could do that by concentration of coffee, that sort of thing.

Time: 1136.02

A simpler way to go about all this that still will allow

Time: 1138.773

you to get some of the performance-enhancing effects

Time: 1140.94

of caffeine and yet experience far less withdrawal

Time: 1144.27

would be two things.

Time: 1145.93

First of all, just halve your amount

Time: 1148.59

of caffeine intake for two or three days.

Time: 1151.853

So again, that could be by volume,

Time: 1153.27

or it could be by concentration, probably easiest

Time: 1156.3

to do by volume.

Time: 1157.052

And so instead of drinking an eight ounce

Time: 1158.76

coffee in the morning, maybe you do four ounces

Time: 1160.718

of regular coffee, four ounces of decaf,

Time: 1162.728

or you just have the four ounces of coffee.

Time: 1164.52

You do that for three or four days,

Time: 1167.49

and then you take perhaps one full day off from caffeine,

Time: 1172.14

maybe another full day off.

Time: 1173.91

You're going to feel a lot less bad on those

Time: 1177.45

two days, having cut your caffeine intake in half

Time: 1179.79

in the previous four days then you would

Time: 1181.457

if you just went cold turkey.

Time: 1182.91

And then you go back to ingesting caffeine,

Time: 1185.67

but you go back to ingesting caffeine at that 50% dose

Time: 1189.57

or what used to represent that 50% dose of caffeine for you.

Time: 1192.84

And you just continue that way on a daily basis,

Time: 1195.12

and then every once in a while, when

Time: 1196.32

you want the performance-enhancing effects

Time: 1198.07

of caffeine, you go back to what was your original dose, which

Time: 1201.24

is now double what you're taking on a daily basis.

Time: 1204.265

So what we're really talking about here

Time: 1205.89

is not going cold turkey.

Time: 1207

We're not talking about quitting caffeine indefinitely.

Time: 1209.783

What we're talking about is cutting the amount of caffeine

Time: 1212.2

that you drink in half for about four days, plus or minus a day,

Time: 1217.48

and then taking two days off from caffeine completely.

Time: 1221.5

And then going back on that half dose of caffeine indefinitely.

Time: 1225.98

That's your new baseline of caffeine intake.

Time: 1228.257

And then every once in a while, if you

Time: 1229.84

need a bit more of a lift, you ingest twice as much caffeine

Time: 1232.66

or a coffee that's twice as concentrated.

Time: 1234.595

We should acknowledge that most people aren't

Time: 1236.47

going to be really precise about the amount of ounces

Time: 1239.8

and the amount of caffeine.

Time: 1241.09

Nonetheless, it's pretty straightforward

Time: 1242.787

to know that you're reducing your caffeine intake.

Time: 1244.87

Certainly, it's clear to know if you're

Time: 1246.495

ingesting no caffeine for a couple of days.

Time: 1248.54

And it's pretty clear when you're doubling

Time: 1250.662

the amount of caffeine.

Time: 1251.62

But you don't have to worry so much that you're exactly

Time: 1253.63

doubling the amount of caffeine.

Time: 1254.86

You can drink one and a half times

Time: 1256.277

as much as you happen to drink on the day before,

Time: 1258.4

or you could drink three times as much.

Time: 1260.827

You would definitely feel it if you drink three times as much.

Time: 1263.41

One very important thing to recognize

Time: 1265.12

is that, on any day where you really spike your caffeine

Time: 1267.97

intake above baseline, no matter where that baseline is

Time: 1271.03

when you start-- it could be 0.

Time: 1272.38

It could be 400 milligrams.

Time: 1273.94

It could be 200 milligrams.

Time: 1275.17

When you double that intake, you will get a big boost of energy,

Time: 1280.03

and the next day, you're going to feel the crash from that.

Time: 1283.27

You're going to feel more lethargic.

Time: 1284.77

You're going to feel not so good.

Time: 1285.76

This has to do with dopamine receptor modulation.

Time: 1288.04

This has to do with adenosine receptor modulation.

Time: 1290.65

The important thing to do is not continue

Time: 1292.358

to consume that elevated level of caffeine, which

Time: 1294.4

is what most people do, and then they set a new hire baseline

Time: 1297.1

just to feel normal.

Time: 1298.07

The key thing is to just manage to get through that crash day,

Time: 1303.483

manage to get through that one day

Time: 1304.9

where you feel a little less good or maybe even down a bit.

Time: 1307.54

Get outside a bit.

Time: 1308.45

Get some more sunshine.

Time: 1309.408

We know that spikes your cortisol in a good way.

Time: 1311.74

It can increase the catecholamines, dopamine, et

Time: 1314.51

cetera.

Time: 1315.01

Get a little bit more sunlight.

Time: 1316.24

Get a little bit more movement.

Time: 1317.532

Get outside.

Time: 1318.13

Do something to offset those feelings of malaise,

Time: 1320.172

and then get right back to your original goal

Time: 1322.54

level of caffeine each day.

Time: 1324.16

There's no use in getting so quantitative that you make

Time: 1326.98

your life miserable, you're measuring things out

Time: 1329.02

like a laboratory chemist.

Time: 1330.335

If you're that type and you want to do that, be my guest.

Time: 1332.71

But unless you're taking caffeine in pill form,

Time: 1334.668

it's very, very hard to get extremely exact

Time: 1338.32

about the amounts of caffeine that you're ingesting.

Time: 1340.58

So it is OK to eyeball it, but understand the contour

Time: 1343.6

of how caffeine works and what the caffeine

Time: 1345.73

performance-enhancing effect comes from.

Time: 1347.6

It comes from a caffeine intake above baseline.

Time: 1350.02

Understand that any time you go above baseline

Time: 1351.97

with your caffeine intake, there's

Time: 1353.39

the potential of some anxiety.

Time: 1354.76

Understand that there's going to be a slight withdrawal

Time: 1357.67

effect that lasts about 24 to 48 hours.

Time: 1361.06

Battle through that short period,

Time: 1362.74

and you'll be right back where you started

Time: 1365.05

and where you need to be so that you can enjoy caffeine

Time: 1367.39

on a daily basis and derive the benefits because there are

Time: 1371.14

many benefits to drinking caffeine and avoiding

Time: 1374.02

some of the potential hazards.

Time: 1375.34

And again, if you're a young person,

Time: 1377.17

I recommend delaying that caffeine intake maybe, I

Time: 1380.32

don't know, 10 years.

Time: 1381.605

Thank you for joining for the beginning

Time: 1383.23

of this Ask Me Anything episode.

Time: 1385.06

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Time: 1388.9

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Time: 1392.44

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Time: 1401.505

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Time: 1403.63

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First of all, it's to raise support for the standard

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And we are going to specifically fund

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And as always, thank you for your interest in science.

Time: 1515.57

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