AMA #1: Leveraging Ultradian Cycles, How to Protect Your Brain, Seed Oils Examined and More

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where

we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.

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I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and ophthalmology

at Stanford School of Medicine.

Today is an Ask Me Anything or AMA

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Without further ado, let's get to answering your questions.

And as always, I will strive to be as clear as possible,

as succinct as possible, and as thorough as possible while

still answering as many questions per AMA episode

as I can without these sessions becoming unreasonably long.

I should also point out that if you asked a question

and it was not answered this AMA,

it may very well be answered in the next AMA.

So the first question, which had a lot of upvotes--

meaning many people wanted the answer to this question--

came from Jackson Lipfert.

And the question was about so-called ultradian rhythms.

For those of you that are not familiar with ultradian

rhythms-- ultradian rhythms are any rhythms

that are shorter than 24 hours.

And typically when people ask about

or talk about ultradian rhythms, they

are referring to 90-minute rhythms.

I've talked about these on the podcast before.

And Jackson's question was-- how do you use ultradian rhythms

in your daily work?

There's more to the question, but first off, I

do use ultradian rhythms-- that is,

I leverage the fact that these do exist in all of us

as a way to engage in focused bouts of mental work

once or twice, or sometimes three times per day.

However, I use them in a way that's

grounded in the research on ultradian rhythms for learning

and memory in a way that might not

be obvious just from their name that they

are 90-minute rhythms.

So I'll get into the details of how to use ultradian rhythms

to best capture neuroplasticity--

that is the brain's ability to change in response

to experience-- and in a way that should allow you to get

one or two, or maybe even three focused bouts of learning per

day, which can greatly accelerate learning

of cognitive material, languages, mathematics,

history--

for sake of school or work, or maybe

just a hobby, or a personal interest of some sort--

and for skill learning in the physical domain as well.

Jackson then went on to ask--

you've mentioned before that you try

to include at least one 90-minute focus block per day

as part of your work and overall mission.

And indeed, that is true.

I tried to get at least one of these focused ultradian rhythm

blocks per day.

That is a period of about 90 minutes

where I'm focused on learning something or doing something

that's cognitively hard, although typically I

aim for two of these sessions per day.

He then goes on to ask-- what is the maximum number of blocks

you can perform sustainably?

The answer to that is probably four.

And I say probably because some people have schedules,

lifestyles, in which four 90-minute blocks

of focused learning is possible per day,

but that's highly unusual.

For most people, it's going to be one or two, maybe three--

four, I would place in the really extraordinary end

of things, maybe if you're cramming for exams

or you've managed to go on a writing retreat or a learning

and retreat of some sort where you can devote essentially,

all of your non-sleeping, non-eating time to learning.

But most people simply can't organize their life that way.

So the short answer is--

for me, it's one or two per day is the target

and three would be the maximum.

You then went on to ask-- do you take vacations

or extended breaks from these ultradian rhythm sessions?

And the short answer is no.

Typically, I try and do this every day-- and yes, even

on the weekends.

But on the weekend, the ultradian rhythm

focused learning bout might just be

reading a book for about 90 minutes

or so, which might not be as cognitively difficult as it

is for other sorts of work that I perform during the week.

I occasionally miss a day entirely

for whatever reason-- travel, obligations

related to family, et cetera.

But in general, I try and do this every day.

I do think that the circuits for focus are,

I guess the non-biological way to put it would be kept warm.

But essentially, that accessing the circuits for focus

is made easier by accessing them regularly

and that's because the circuits for focus

are indeed themselves amenable to neuroplasticity.

In other words, the more you force yourself to focus,

the easier focusing gets.

I'll now answer the last part of the question

and then I will go through and emphasize some tools

that anyone can use in order to leverage ultradian rhythms

toward learning bouts-- either cognitive learning

or physical skill learning, or a combination of the two.

The last part of the question Jackson asked

was-- if you knew you needed to drastically increase

the amount of focus you do daily, how would you schedule

that focus and recover from it?

That's an excellent aspect to this question.

And I will now give you the details

of how I would use and schedule ultradian rhythms.

I'll offer you a tool--

I've never talked about this tool in the Huberman Lab

podcast.

And I will dispel a common myth about ultradian rhythms that

points to a, believe it or not, an easier way to leverage

them for maximum benefit.

OK.

So as I mentioned before, ultradian rhythms are

these 90-minute cycles that we go through from the time

that we are born until the time we die.

Indeed, even during sleep, we are

experiencing and more or less governed

by these ultradian rhythms.

This question and this answer is not so much about sleep.

But just know that when you go to sleep at night until you

wake up in the morning, every 90 minutes or so,

your patterns of sleep-- that is the percentage or ratio rather

of slow wave sleep to light sleep to rapid eye movement

sleep changes in a way such that each 90-minute cycle gates

the next cycle.

It flips on switch for the next 90-minute cycle

then that 90-minute cycle ends, flips

on switch for the next one, and so on and so forth.

I mentioned all that because during the daytime,

the same thing is true.

But most people don't know when the 90-minute all trading

cycles begin.

Because if you think about it, you

could wake up on the basis of an alarm clock

or noise in the room, or simply because you naturally

wake up in the middle of an ultradian 90-minute cycle.

So does that mean, for instance, that if you wake up 60 minutes

into an ultradian cycle that the next 30 minutes

of your waking--

right, because that 60 minutes needs

to continue to 90 to complete an ultradian

cycle-- that the next 30 minutes after waking

are related to the ultradian cycle

that you were still in during sleep, or does

it start a new ultradian cycle.

And the answer is the former.

That ultradian cycle continues even if you wake up

in the middle of it.

And so a lot of people who want to leverage ultradian cycles

for learning will say, "Well, how do I know when to start?

When does it start, when I hit my stopwatch?

Can I just set a clock and work for 90 minutes?"

And the short answer is no.

And that might seem unfortunate, but the good news

is that you can figure out when your first proper ultradian

cycle of the day begins simply by asking yourself when are

you most alert after waking.

That is if you were, say to wake up at 7:00 AM

and let's say that's the end of an ultradian cycle or perhaps

you're in the middle of an ultradian cycle--

doesn't matter.

What you need to watch for or pay attention to

for a day or so is when you start

to experience your greatest state of mental alertness

in the morning.

And here, we can discard with all the issues and variables

around caffeine or no caffeine, hydrating or no hydrating.

Exercise is one variable that we'll consider in a moment.

But here's the deal--

these all trading in cycles are actually triggered

by fluctuations in the so-called glucocorticoid system--

the system that regulates cortisol release.

And as some of you have probably heard me say before--

cortisol, even though it's often discussed as a terrible thing,

it's chronic stress, cortisol, cortisol, et cetera-- cortisol

is essential for health and every day we

get a rise in cortisol in the morning that is associated

with enhanced immune function, enhanced alertness, enhanced

ability to focus, so on and so forth.

In fact, the protocol that I'm always

beating the drum about that people

should get sunlight in their eyes

as close to waking as possible-- that actually enhances

or increases the peak level of cortisol that's

experienced early in the day.

And that sets in motion a number of these ultradian cycles.

So for instance, if you wake up at 7:00 AM

and you find that for the first hour after waking,

you tend to be a little bit groggy,

or you happen to be groggy on a given day,

but then you notice that your attention and alertness starts

to peak somewhere around 9:30 AM or 10:00 AM,

you can be pretty sure that, that first ultradian

cycle for learning is going to be optimal to start

at about 9:30 or 10:00 AM.

How can I say about if it's indeed a 90-minute cycle?

Well, this is really where the underlying neurobiology

in these ultradian cycles converge to give you

a specific protocol.

The changes in cortisol that occur throughout the day

involve--

yes, a big peak early in the day if you're

getting your sunlight and caffeine and maybe even some

exercise early in the day.

But typically, that peak comes early.

And then across the day the baseline jitters a little bit,

it comes down, but it bounces around a little bit.

It's not a flat line, if we were to measure

your glucocorticoid levels.

Each one of those little bumps corresponds to a shift

in these ultradian cycles.

So if you find that you are most alert at 9:30

or starting to become alert at 9:30,

and then typically you have a peak of focus and concentration

around 10:00 AM, that is really valuable to know.

Because the way that the molecules that

control neuroplasticity-- that is the changes in neurons

and other cell types in the brain that

allow your nervous system to learn and literally

for new connections to form between neurons, which

is basically the basis of learning--

those fluctuate according to these ultradian cycles.

What does this mean?

This means if your peak in alertness and focus

and energy--

could even be experienced as physical energy occurs

at about 9:30 AM, I would start your first ultradian cycle

for learning somewhere around there.

Certainly 9:30 AM would be ideal,

but 10:00 AM would be fine as well.

And then you have about one hour to get

the maximum amount of learning in even

within that alternating cycle.

This is where there's a lot of confusion out there,

people think, oh, ultradian cycles are 90 minutes,

therefore, we should be in our peak level of focus

throughout that 90 minutes.

In reality, most people take about 10 or 15 minutes

to break into a really deep trench of focus

and then periodically throughout the next hour,

they'll pop out of that focus, now

have to deliberately refocus.

This is why, if possible, you want

to turn off Wi-Fi connections and put

your phone in the other room or turn it off.

If.

You do need your phone or Wi-Fi, just

be aware of how distracting those things

can be to getting into a deep trench of focus.

But the point is this--

these 90-minute cycles occur periodically

throughout the day, but there is going

to be one period early in the day--

and here, I'm referring to the spirit of starting

at about 9:30 or 10:00 AM-- and then likely

another one in the mid to late afternoon that are going to be

ideal for focused learning.

And that focus learning bout should ideally

have you set your clock--

a stopwatch or something-- to measure 90 minutes, but do

assume that there's going to be some jitter at the front end

where you're not going to be able to focus

as deeply as you would like.

Then you'll get about an hour of deep focus

and then you really start to transition out

of these ultradian cycles.

How do when the afternoon ultradian cycle occurs?

Well, just as in the morning, it occurs

because there's a brief, but significant increase

in the glucocorticoid system in the mid to late afternoon.

I wish I could tell you it's going to be 2 PM

or it's going to be 3:00 PM-- that's really going

to depend on the individual.

When you ingest caffeine, some of the other

demands of your day.

But you can learn to recognize when

these two periods for optimized learning

will occur and here are the key principles.

Watch for a day or two-- meaning pay attention

to when you have your peak levels of physical and mental

energy in the morning-- that is between waking and noon,

and then again between noon and about 6:00 or 7:00 PM.

Although I'm sure that there are some late shifted folks that

will experience their peak in focus somewhere around 6:00

or 7:00 PM, especially if they're waking up

around 10:00 or 11:00 AM, as I know some people out there are.

Once you know where those peaks in focus

occur on your schedule, set a stopwatch

for one ultradian cycle in the early part of the day.

In this example, I was saying 9:30,

but if you can't hop on it until 10, that's fine.

Set it for 90 minutes, consider that block wholly--

meaning rule out all other distractions.

But assume that within that 90-minute block,

you are only going to be able to focus intensely

for about one hour.

And just know that the molecules that control neuroplasticity--

and these things have names.

And yes, Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor or BDNF

is the most famous of those, but there are others as well.

In fact, the very receptors that control

synaptic strength, the connections between neurons,

some of the neurotransmitters and modulators involved

in synaptic plasticity, they undergo regulation

by these ultradian changes in glucocorticoid.

And then try and capture a second ultradian

learning block in the afternoon.

Again, just knowing that the first 10 or 15 minutes,

consider it mental warm up, and then you

get about an hour-- it's not exactly 60 minutes, but about

an hour to maximize learning.

So if you're trying to learn something,

really capture it during that phase as well.

Now, is there a third opportunity

or a fourth opportunity?

This relates to Jackson's question directly.

And the short answer is not really,

unless you're somebody who requires very little sleep.

Within the 12 or 16 hours that one

tends to be awake during the day or 18 hours

that one tends to be awake, there are really only two

of these major peaks in the glucocorticoid system that

trigger the onset of the circadian cycles.

Again, there's a ramping up and a ramping down

of glucocorticoids throughout the day.

But the real key here is to learn

when you tend to be most focused based

on your regular sleep, wake cycle, caffeine

intake, exercise, et cetera.

And again, that's going to vary from person to person.

And you really only have two opportunities or two ultradian

cycles to capture in order to get the maximum focus

challenging work done a.k.a.

learning.

So for somebody that wants to learn

an immense amount of material or who has the opportunity

to capture another ultradian cycle,

the other time where that tends to occur is also early days.

So some people by waking up early

and using stimulants like caffeine and hydration

or some brief high-intensity exercise,

can trigger that cortisol pulse to shift a little bit

earlier so that they can capture a morning work

block that occurs somewhere, let's

say between 6:00 and 7:30 AM.

So let's think about our typical person--

at least in my example that's waking up around 7:00 AM.

And then I said, has their first ultradian work cycle really

flip on because that bump in cortisol around 9:30 or 10:00

AM.

If that person were say to set their alarm clock for 5:30 AM,

then get up, get some artificial light-- if the sun isn't out,

turn on bright or artificial lights,

or if the sun happens to be up that time of year,

get some sunlight in your eyes.

But irrespective of sunlight, were

to get a little bit of brief high intensity

exercise maybe 10 or 15 minutes of skipping rope or even

just Jumping Jacks or go out for a brief jog, what

happens then is the cortisol pulse starts to shift earlier.

And so the next day and the following day

and so on and so forth-- provided they're still doing

that exercise first thing and ideally getting some light

in their eyes as well--

well then they have an opportunity

to capture an increase in cortisol that

is now shifted from about 7:00 AM to about 8:30 AM.

So they can capture an hour of work there

and then they will also still be within that rising

phase of cortisol in the 9:30 to 10:00

AM block that lasts until about 11:30 or so.

They might have lunch.

Perhaps after lunch, they do a Non-Sleep Deep Rest--

maybe they, don't maybe you're a napper or maybe you're not--

doesn't really matter.

And then in the afternoon--

and I would suspect it would now be

in the earlier afternoon sometime around 2:00 or 2:30

would be typical.

Although again, that exact time will vary person to person.

Then they would want to schedule another 90-minute work block.

So that's how you can capture three.

Now you can start to see also why

capturing four ultradian work blocks

would be exceedingly rare.

It's just not typical that people are awake

for that much of the day, you have to sleep at some point.

And I should mention that if you're going to force yourself

to wake up earlier on a consistent basis,

you probably should be trying to get to sleep

a little bit earlier as well.

Because it's not just the quality,

but the duration of quality sleep that really

matters for learning.

And I should also remind everybody

that the actual rewiring of neurons

does not occur during any focused work block,

it actually occurs during deep sleep the following night

and the following night, and during Non-Sleep Deep Rest.

This is why Non-Sleep Deep Rest can accelerate

learning because it's in states of rest

that the actual connections between neurons

strengthen or weaken or new neurons

are added in a way that allows for what we call learning.

OK.

So one or two all trading work blocks per day is typical,

three would be really exceptional,

and four would be extraordinary.

Look for them-- meaning look to see when you are feeling most

focused and alert typically in the period

before waking and noon and typically

in the period between noon and bedtime,

given your standard intake of caffeine and exercise

and other life events.

Please also remember that even though it's

an ultradian 90-minute work block,

the neuroplasticity is going to be best triggered

within a 60-minute portion of that.

And there's no way to know exactly when that 60

minutes begins and ends until you actually

begin the work block.

So this is really designed to be empirical,

you need to actually go do this.

What you'll notice again is that it's

hard to focus at first then you'll

drop into a state of focus.

You may get distracted, that's perfectly normal.

You refocus, get back into triggering

learning-- that's really what you're doing,

you're triggering learning-- and then there'll be some taper

and then you'll be out of the ultradian work block.

Now, it's also a key to understand

that myself and other people should not

expect that they're only working during these 90-minute work

blocks.

It's just that a lot of the sorts of demands of our day,

including cooking and shopping for groceries, and email,

and text messaging, and social media-- a lot of those things

don't require intense focus of the sort

that I believe Jackson is asking about maximizing,

and that I'm referring to when I talk about these ultradian work

blocks.

And then as a final point, I've been

talking about these ultradian work blocks and focus,

et cetera, in a context that brings to mind ideas

about cognitive work.

So learning a language, learning math, writing,

or creating, doing something related to music, et cetera.

But these 90-minute ultradian work blocks

also directly relate to physical skill learning as well

and to physical exercise as well.

So if you are somebody who's really interested in improving

your fitness and your fitness requires

a lot of focused attention--

so for instance, when I go out for a long run on Sundays,

which is part of my fitness routine,

I deliberately not thinking about much,

I'm just trying to cruise along.

I might focus a little bit on my pace

in stride, maybe an audiobook I'm listening to or a podcast.

But typically, I'm just cruising along,

it's low cognitive demand work.

These ultradian work blocks can really

be maximized for pure cognitive work--

book type work, et cetera, music, et cetera, or they

can also be leveraged toward skill learning.

So if you're trying to learn how to dance

or how to perform a particular athletic move

or you're trying to get better at some skill that requires

a lot of focus and alignment of muscular movement and cognitive

demands, et cetera, well then these

are also going to be ideal for triggering neuroplasticity

to get better in the motor skill based domain as it's called,

et cetera.

If you'd like to learn more about ultradian

shifts in neuroplasticity and ultradian work bouts,

I will certainly do more on this in the standard Huberman Lab

podcast.

But the key words to look up if you

want to explore this further online--

it's not something that a lot of people about,

it's called iterative metaplasticity.

It's a vast literature and one that I'd

be happy to teach you in a standard podcast episode.

But in the interest of getting to more questions from you

all, hopefully the answer I've given

you now has been complete enough, yet clear enough,

and yet succinct enough that you can start

to leverage these really powerful aspects

of iterative metaplasticity and ultradian rhythms for learning.

And I'd just like to point out that these opportunities

for focused learning that occur in these 90-minute ultradian

cycles are really terrific opportunities.

They are offered to you at least twice every day

and you can really learn to detect when they occur

and when they're likely to occur.

You can certainly learn at other times in the 24-hour cycle.

But for anyone who's tried to stay up late at night cramming

for an exam or for somebody who's

tried to learn during the sleepiest time

of their afternoon, we can be very familiar with the fact

that there are times of day in which we are best at learning.

And as I've just described, there

are ways to capture those moments

and they are valuable moments.

So even though it's just about three hours per day

or really only two hours per day because of the 60

to 90-minute thing that I talked about a few minutes ago, learn

to know when these occur and really treat them as valuable,

maybe even wholly in the sense that they are really the times

that are offered up to you each day

by your own biology in ways that will allow you to get

better pretty much at anything.

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