AMA #10: Benefits of Nature & “Grounding," Hearing Loss Research & Avoiding Altitude Sickness

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ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,

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where we discuss science and science-based tools

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for everyday life.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor

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of neurobiology and ophthalmology

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at Stanford School of Medicine.

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Today is an Ask Me Anything episode, or AMA.

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So without further ado, let's get

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to answering your questions.

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The first question is about nature,

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in particular about the scientifically-supported

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benefits of getting outdoors into nature.

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The person asks about the role of sunlight,

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the role of calming sounds, the role

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of observing wildlife, of observing green colors,

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and, quote, "other stuff."

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And in fact, I'm glad that they asked about "other stuff"

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because I get the question about the scientifically-supported

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benefits of nature a lot.

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I often also get the question about grounding.

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For those of you that aren't familiar with what grounding

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is, grounding is a practice of putting your feet on the Earth

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directly with bare feet, oftentimes

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into soil or on a lawn.

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And it's a question that I seem to get more and more.

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In fact, every week for quite a long while now, on social media

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or elsewhere, somebody asks me about the scientific support

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for this practice of grounding.

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So obviously there's a lot of interest

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in what the scientific research says about getting into nature

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and putting one's feet on the ground,

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a.k.a. grounding, and so on.

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OK, so if I'm going to answer this question,

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I first have to be very direct with you.

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There is excellent, meaning dozens, if not

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hundreds, of quality peer-reviewed studies which

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support the value of getting sunlight in one's eyes,

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in particular early in the day to set your circadian rhythm.

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This is something that I've talked about extensively

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on the Huberman Lab podcast and as a guest on other podcasts.

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It's one of the first and, frankly, most important

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items on the toolkit for sleep, which is a zero-cost toolkit

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that you can access by going to hubermanlab.com,

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going to the menu, going to Newsletter.

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You can see it as a PDF there.

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You don't have to sign up for the newsletter.

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You can just access that toolkit for sleep.

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And you'll notice that very close to the top of that list,

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if not top of that list, is to get sunlight in your eyes

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early in the day.

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You don't have to see the sun cross the horizon.

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If you can, that's great.

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But if you wake up after the sun has already

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risen, go outside, face the sun, blink

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as necessary to protect your eyes,

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but get some sunlight into your eyes

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every single day or as often as you possibly can,

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especially on overcast days.

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That's an absolutely unequivocally

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science-supported tool that will increase daytime mood, focus,

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and alertness and will improve your nighttime sleep.

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Viewing morning sunlight also has profoundly positive effects

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on metabolism.

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Now, those effects on metabolism could

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be the direct effect of viewing sunlight or, more likely,

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they are the indirect consequence

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of getting better sleep at night.

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So getting sunlight in your eyes early in the day

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and ideally in the evening or late afternoon

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before the sun sets is a very well supported protocol

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that we know is beneficial for numerous aspects

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of mental health, physical health, and performance.

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And of course, sunlight and getting sunlight in one's eyes

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does require that you get outside.

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You simply will not derive the same benefits

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from viewing sunlight if you try and do it

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through a window or windshield or if you

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look at a picture of a sun on a screen.

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Forget it.

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You are not going to set your circadian rhythm.

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You are not going to derive all the positive effects

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of sunlight by trying to get it from screens

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or from looking at pictures of suns or something of that sort.

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Now, if you are somebody that, for whatever reason--

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seasonality, where you live on the planet, work schedule, et

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cetera--

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who cannot get sunlight in your eyes early in the day

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on a consistent basis, well, then you might consider

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purchasing a so-called SAD lamp, which is for seasonal affective

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disorder, which is very bright light that you can look

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at in the morning for usually about 5 to 10 minutes.

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People will put it on their counter

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while they make their morning coffee, eat their breakfast.

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And that has also been shown to improve mood, focus,

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and alertness and set one's circadian rhythm.

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But it is not nearly as effective as getting sunlight

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in your eyes.

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Now, why am I talking about this practice

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that I've already talked about extensively

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on numerous podcasts before?

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Well, because the question is about nature,

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and sunlight is a key feature of our natural environment.

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But the person is also asking about other features

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of nature-- seeing green colors, or blue colors,

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or running streams for that matter.

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Well, here, too, we can ask, what does the scientific data

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really say about things like going

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near a waterfall, or a running stream, or being near an ocean?

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And actually, this is quite interesting.

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There is actually a peer-reviewed literature

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on negative ionization, as it's called,

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which is a pattern of ionization that's

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present close to bodies of water and particular types of bodies

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of water, such as waterfalls, running streams, et cetera.

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There's actually a laboratory at Columbia University School

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of Medicine that has published fairly extensively

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on the health benefits of negative ionization

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as it relates to setting circadian

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rhythm and some other aspects of mental and physical health.

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I intend to host the head of that laboratory

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on the Huberman Lab podcast in the not too distant future.

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For now, we can safely say this--

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there does seem to be some positive health

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benefits to placing oneself near bodies of water,

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in particular moving bodies of water.

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And of course, as is always the case when there's

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a discovery about how the natural world can impact

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health, there have been some technologies developed

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to create negative patterns of ionization

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within a home environment.

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But as with viewing sunlight exposure

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and comparing it to, say, SAD lamps,

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the negative ionization machines that one can purchase and put

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in their home environment have been shown in a few studies

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to produce some positive health benefits.

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But those positive effects in no way

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reach the level of positive effects

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that have been demonstrated in studies where people

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are actually spending a dedicated

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period of time outdoors as near a moving body of water.

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So in thinking about nature, natural environments,

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there's strong evidence for getting sunlight in one's eyes.

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There is some evidence for being near moving bodies of water,

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perhaps--

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again, I really want to highlight perhaps--

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because of negative ionization created by those moving

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bodies of water.

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There is far less evidence for sunlight simulators

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or negative ionization machines used indoors.

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And then the asker of this question also, quite correctly,

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asked about things like calming sounds,

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watching wildlife, green colors, et cetera.

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And herein lies a really important point for everyone

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to digest.

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While, of course, answering a question

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about the natural world or about health

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requires that we first pose a hypothesis-- for those of you

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that aren't familiar what a hypothesis is,

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a hypothesis is a stated prediction.

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So it's not a question.

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A question would be something like,

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is getting out into nature good for our health?

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A scientific hypothesis is where one actually takes a stance.

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For instance, you could take the stance

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and make the hypothesis that getting out

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into nature for 30 minutes per day, three days per week,

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improves mood and nighttime sleep.

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So that's a hypothesis that then one would go on

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to design an experiment to test and then evaluate

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the data from that experiment and compare it

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to the hypothesis, either validating or negating

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that hypothesis.

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That's essentially how science is done.

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There's a lot more to it, but that's essentially

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the scientific method.

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And while, of course, the scientific method

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is a fabulously powerful tool, for some questions,

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it is a less potent tool.

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And the question of is getting out into nature

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helpful for enhancing our mental and physical health is

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the sort of question that while ideally you

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could design a really well controlled study to address,

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it's actually quite difficult to design such a study.

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And here's why.

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In order to perform a study that's very well controlled,

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meaning where you can isolate individual variables--

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like sunlight, like the sorts of color contrast that one sees

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in a natural scene outdoors in a forest or near a river--

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in order to address whether or not

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the calming sounds or the presence of squirrels running

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through your environment are the relevant factors,

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it becomes incredibly difficult to try and isolate

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individual variables, meaning as soon as you bring people

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into the laboratory, yes, you have more control over which

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variables, as they're called, you present them,

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by bringing them into a room that essentially has

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no art on the walls and then having them look

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at a picture of a sun or looking at sunlight

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or listening to soothing sounds or looking

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at a picture of a forest, of course,

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you're controlling the individual variables.

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However, there is a sort of gestalt,

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meaning a collective picture of being

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in nature that brings together lots

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of different elements-- the element of surprise,

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for instance.

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The other day I was out for a Sunday hike,

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and that morning I saw a squirrel running

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across my path, and it was interesting

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because the squirrel had a pinecone in its mouth.

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It had been chewed down to the cob.

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And the squirrel was probably only about 7 or 8 inches long,

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and the pine cone was probably about 9 or 10 inches long--

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the cob of the pine cone, that is.

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And the interesting thing is that the squirrel

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was carrying it long ways from the tip of the cob.

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And so I delighted in the fact that this little squirrel

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was working so hard to carry this object through the woods.

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And this object was literally longer than its own body

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length, and it looked so dedicated in its running

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across the path in order to do whatever it

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would with that pine cone cob.

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So something like that obviously stuck in my memory.

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It delighted me.

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And at the very same time, there were a number

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of other things happening besides the presence

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of that novel wildlife experience.

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There was the sound of a stream.

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There's the sunlight.

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There's the color contrast everywhere.

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I'm breathing fresh air because I

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was far away from any cars or any civilization, in fact.

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And so here's what we know.

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There are dozens, if not hundreds,

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of studies that show that if people get out

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of doors into nature--

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this could be parks.

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This could be near a stream.

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This could be an ocean, any number

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of different natural environments.

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And if they do that for anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes,

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three to seven days per week, indeed there

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are demonstrated significant reductions

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in things like blood pressure, resting heart

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rate, improvements in sleep, improvements in mood.

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And so I think we can very reliably say that, yes,

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or perhaps even absolutely yes, getting outside into nature

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can enhance various aspects of mental health, physical health,

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and thereby performance in different aspects of life.

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However, when talking about the benefits

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of getting into nature, we are talking about hundreds, if not

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thousands, of variables, some of which we are aware of,

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such as the presence of wildlife or sunlight or color contrast.

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And then, of course, there are going

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to be dozens, if not hundreds, maybe even

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thousands of other variables that we're not even aware of.

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Perhaps it's negative ionization.

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Most people aren't measuring the ionization of the air

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when they go out into nature.

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But perhaps it's also the presence

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of certain smells from the soils that are being broken down

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and then they're changing the oxygenation state of the air

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around you, the plants, et cetera.

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Again, so many variables, that, frankly,

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to try and isolate any one of those variables

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in the laboratory seems not just artificial,

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but I think that it actually would just

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lead to a diminished sense of just how valuable nature is.

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So while, of course, the Huberman Lab podcast

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is a podcast where we always center

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on science and science-related tools,

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meaning protocols that are grounded

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in quality peer-reviewed studies that have been subjected

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to control conditions where some people are getting,

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say, the drug treatment or taking the supplement

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or doing a particular behavioral practice and other people

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are not or doing some variant of those and dose response curves,

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all of that stuff, when it comes to the question of

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whether or not it's valuable to get out into nature,

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I think it's a very straightforward yes.

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Absolutely yes.

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Get out into nature as often as you can and safely can,

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of course.

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I realize some of this is weather permitting.

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People live in different areas.

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Some people are in cities.

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Some people are in deserts.

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Some people are near the ocean.

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But getting out into nature has been shown over and over again

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to have numerous positive health effects.

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And yet, unless we're talking about sunlight exposure

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and isolating the variable of setting one's circadian

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rhythm by viewing sunlight early in the day, all

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of the other features of getting out into nature,

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things like forest bathing--

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this is a term coined from some, frankly, pretty nice studies

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that were done in Japan in which people placed themselves

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into forest-like environments for a certain period of time.

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There were control groups where people were not

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placed into those environments, and the people

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that did this so-called forest bathing experienced

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enhanced mental and physical health.

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That brought on a practice of people who could not get out

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of doors into forests bringing plants

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into their home environment, which I think all of us

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would agree look nice.

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They often will add pleasant odors to the air,

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and perhaps they do actually shift our mental and physical

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health in significant ways.

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I suppose it depends on how much you like plants,

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how much you pay attention to them, and, of course,

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how many plants there are.

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But-- and I think this is a really important

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"but" to emphasize--

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while most all questions about tools and protocols

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for enhancing health immediately lead me to say, ah,

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this study or that study or, yes,

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there's evidence or, no, there isn't evidence, when it comes

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to questions about nature and grounding in particular,

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I take the stance that this is a unique instance where

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we know there are just so many benefits of getting out

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into nature that trying to isolate

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any one of those variables in a quality,

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rigorous way within the laboratory

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almost seems too artificial to really justify

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the conclusions that arrive.

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Now, I'm sure there are some of you out there who are aware--

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and if you're not, I'll tell you-- there

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are studies that have explored this practice

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of so-called grounding.

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They've had people come into the laboratory

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and place their feet on soil that is contained within a box

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or there are other studies where they actually

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have people go out of doors and place their feet

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onto the grass or the ground.

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And there are a bunch of theories

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as to how grounding could improve

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one's mental and physical health that aren't just about getting

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outside.

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So the theories go that this has to do

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with the exchange of electrons with the Earth

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and the Earth's surface in particular.

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There's been the argument made that shoes,

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in particular shoes that have rubber soles,

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may block some of this electron exchange

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with the surface of the Earth.

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There have been theories about the tactile--

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that is, the touch sensation-- with the Earth being important.

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Not a lot of science published in, let's just say,

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blue ribbon journals, which is not

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to diminish some of the journals that these have been published

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in, but just to say that, again, there are so many variables

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associated with a practice such as grounding that I'll simply

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say, yes, please do get out of doors into nature.

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I try every Sunday to do my zone 2 cardio by rucking or jogging

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or hiking, often with other people

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if I'm trying to be social with family or others.

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But the point is getting out of doors

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has myriad positive effects on mental health

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and physical health.

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And of course, when you're moving out of doors,

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you're also getting that zone 2 cardio or other forms

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of physical benefit by elevating your heart rate

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or perhaps you could even do your resistance training out

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of doors on other days.

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Now, I also try to get out of doors other days of the week.

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But oftentimes, I'm, by way of weather

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or by way of other commitments, forced to be indoors,

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on planes, here at the podcast studio

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where certainly I'm indoors.

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But I try and get out of doors at least a few minutes

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each day for a morning stroll, looking at sunlight, et cetera.

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So the long and short of this is, yes, there's

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some evidence for grounding.

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Is it super strong evidence?

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No, it's not.

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We don't really know what it is about placing one's feet

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onto the Earth that is producing the positive effects that

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were observed in those studies.

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And those studies made some reasonable attempt

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to isolate the variables and figure out whether or not

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it was ion exchange with the Earth or the tactile,

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meaning the touch sensation, of having

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one's feet on the ground.

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Frankly, I don't think there's enough quality science

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to really draw any firm conclusions about that.

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However, if you like the idea of grounding, by all means, do it.

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In fact, if it feels good to you,

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I recommend getting your morning sunlight out

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of doors with your bare feet on the ground.

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Or if you're like me, you put on your shoes,

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and you take a walk most days.

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Although, I've tried this practice of grounding,

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and it feels pretty good, meaning

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it feels nice to have my feet on the Earth,

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provided I'm on clean soil or clean lawn.

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Definitely don't do this at the dog park.

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Hookworm is a real thing, by the way, folks.

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So pay attention to the sorts of surfaces

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that you're putting your feet onto.

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But the question about whether or not nature

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is valuable for our mental and physical health is an easy one.

Time: 1055.68

It's an absolute yes.

Time: 1056.78

But isolating the particular variables about nature

Time: 1059.72

that are most beneficial, well, that's a much tougher question,

Time: 1063.17

and it's one that, frankly, the scientific method is not

Time: 1066.18

and, to be honest, I don't think ever

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will be in a position to isolate and really

Time: 1070.94

nail down specifically, because as soon as you get specific

Time: 1073.49

about that question, you start to diminish

Time: 1076.28

the value of the study itself.

Time: 1078.12

So the long and short of this is get out into nature

Time: 1081.35

as often as you safely can.

Time: 1083

If you can exercise out of doors, even better.

Time: 1085.61

If you want to make it social, great.

Time: 1087.24

If you don't want to make it social, fine.

Time: 1089.15

It's your life.

Time: 1089.78

It's up to you.

Time: 1090.59

But there certainly is value in getting out into nature.

Time: 1093.62

It's also just beautiful from a visual perspective,

Time: 1096.47

from an auditory perspective.

Time: 1098.12

And I myself try and take at least a few trips each year.

Time: 1101.123

None of these are particularly expensive trips

Time: 1103.04

where I try and get out hiking, camping.

Time: 1105.41

The weekly walks in nature are an absolute must for me.

Time: 1109.52

If I miss one because of weather conditions or travel,

Time: 1112.397

I make it a point to try and get into nature

Time: 1114.23

more during the following week or whenever I can.

Time: 1116.94

And frankly, I don't have a scientific explanation

Time: 1120.35

for why nature is oh-so beneficial,

Time: 1122.33

except for the sunlight piece and perhaps this grounding

Time: 1124.73

piece and the negative ionization piece.

Time: 1126.62

And frankly, I don't worry so much

Time: 1128.45

about the lack of variable-isolating, quality,

Time: 1131.48

peer-reviewed studies that support the benefits of getting

Time: 1134

out into nature.

Time: 1135.11

I simply like getting out into nature

Time: 1137

and into different natural environments

Time: 1138.68

as much as I possibly can, because, for whatever reason,

Time: 1141.94

imagine those reasons have something to do with serotonin,

Time: 1144.72

dopamine, hormones, oxytocin, probably

Time: 1146.78

a bunch of different things that are

Time: 1148.49

rooted in how our nervous system evolved

Time: 1151.07

in natural environments.

Time: 1152.09

Well, it just feels really good.

Time: 1154.61

Thank you for joining for the beginning

Time: 1156.38

of this Ask Me Anything episode.

Time: 1158.37

To hear the full episode and to hear future episodes of these

Time: 1162.11

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Time: 1165.59

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Time: 1168.71

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Time: 1174.685

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Time: 1176.81

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Time: 1179.31

First of all, it's to raise support

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And to fund research-- in particular, research

Time: 1195.74

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but on human beings, which I think we all agree

Time: 1200.12

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Time: 1202.74

And we are going to specifically one research that

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Time: 1210.52

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So this is a terrific way that they're

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Again, that's hubermanlab.com/premium.

Time: 1286.12

And as always, thank you for your interest in science.

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